Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by Einzige »

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/18/us/18 ... wanted=all
FORT HANCOCK, Tex. — The giant rusty fence of metal bars along the border here, built in recent years to keep illegal immigrants from crossing into the United States, has a new nickname among local residents: Jurassic Park Gate, a nod to the barrier in a 1993 movie that kept dangerous dinosaurs at bay in a theme park.

On the other side, a brutal war between drug gangs has forced dozens of fearful families from the Mexican town of El Porvenir to come to the border seeking political asylum, and scores of other Mexicans have used special visas known as border-crossing cards to flee into the United States. They say drug gangs have laid waste to their town, burning down houses and killing people in the street.

Americans are taking in their Mexican relatives, and the local schools have swelled with traumatized children, many of whom have witnessed gangland violence, school officials say...



Not everyone coming from El Porvenir is seeking asylum. Many Mexicans in towns along the river have special border-crossing cards, which let them cross for up to 30 days to do business and shop near the border. But some have used the visas to relocate their families temporarily to Fort Hancock and other small towns on the Texas side.

Those who have temporary tourist visas or who can obtain business visas because they have enough money to start businesses in the United States are also moving their families across the border. (Cities like El Paso and San Antonio have had real estate booms and a flourishing of small businesses and Mexican restaurants as a result.)

Other Mexicans who were once happy living in Mexico are taking advantage of whatever means they have to obtain a visa and get out. Some were born in a hospital on the United States side and are American citizens, for instance, or have married citizens but have never applied for residency.

In El Paso alone, the police estimate that at least 30,000 Mexicans have moved across the border in the past two years because of the violence in Juárez and the river towns to the southeast. So many people have left El Porvenir and nearby Guadalupe Bravos that the two resemble ghost towns, former residents say.

People without access to visas, however, have been seeking asylum, even at the risk of being detained for months. In the early days of the conflict, the asylum-seekers were mostly journalists, police officers and officials who had been threatened by organized crime. But now people with ordinary jobs are showing up at the border and saying they fear for their lives.

“This is an emergency situation, a war,” said Jorge Luis Aguirre, a journalist who himself has asked for asylum after his life was threatened in 2008 in Ciudad Juárez. “It’s a question of life and death for these people.”

But few Mexicans are granted asylum. Over the last three federal fiscal years, immigration judges heard 9,317 requests across the country, and granted only 183.

Fort Hancock has had a surge in applications in March and April, officials said. All told the number of people asking for asylum at ports of entry along the border alone has climbed steadily, to 338 for the federal fiscal year ended last October, from 179 two years before.

In Fort Hancock, the influx grew after one of the warring drug gangs placed a banner in El Porvenir’s central square recently threatening death for anyone left in the town on Easter. In response, the Mexican authorities flooded the town with federal police officers, and the promised mayhem was averted.
More at the link.

If, as I suspect, we in the United States are going to see enough nativist pressure exerted on our government to give into the demands to close our borders, then a measure of good ought at least come out of it. I will here repeat what I have said elsewhere: our continued efforts to intervene in the affairs of a foreign nation has the end result of destabilizing that nation, rendering it incapable of responding to our requests. If we are going to cut of the only hope these people have of making a new life for themselves, then we ought to do our part in ending a major component of what drives them in that quest.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by Liberty »

Einzige wrote:If, as I suspect, we in the United States are going to see enough nativist pressure exerted on our government to give into the demands to close our borders, then a measure of good ought at least come out of it. I will here repeat what I have said elsewhere: our continued efforts to intervene in the affairs of a foreign nation has the end result of destabilizing that nation, rendering it incapable of responding to our requests. If we are going to cut of the only hope these people have of making a new life for themselves, then we ought to do our part in ending a major component of what drives them in that quest.
I'm confused. Your last sentence seems to contradict the rest of your paragraph.

My thoughts: somebody needs to fucking do something about these drug gangs. I've read that there are as many people in Mexican drug gangs as in the Mexican army. So, my question: What is feeding the drug lords/drug wars?
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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Mostly that the US, due to prohibition of drugs, is funding them via giving them a killer market- and indeed a captive market that cannot help but buy from them whom are addicted (something like tobacco companies with guns)- whereby they can charge addicts whatever they like: the criminalisation of hard drugs is also problematic*, creating a permanent underclass with no incentive or means towards rehabilitation nor are any major programs really targeted to prevent drug use among the poor (DARE for instance is targeted at middle class white kids, whom the government actually cares about). But one thing stands out: if we legalised pot, for instance, a quarter or more of the average drug gang's money would instantly dry up, if I remember my stats. I think it was either 25% or 75%, and either way that's massive.

*That is not to say it should be legal and companies should sell people cocaine, but that addiction should be treated as an illness and result in rehab (forcible if necessary, like commitment to a mental institution). Instead, society treats it like a moral failing and people who are on drugs deserve to be locked up in prisons and then rehabilitated rather than just rehabilitated because... ? The marijuana prohibition, among others, however is just above and beyond the call of silly, since if tobacco and alcohol are illegal there's no reason to keep it illegal and scarce. Even if it were dangerous and not fit for public consumption, illegalising leaves it uncontrolled and accounting for the plurality of all drug lord revenues.
Last edited by Duckie on 2010-04-22 09:59pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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Liberty wrote:I'm confused. Your last sentence seems to contradict the rest of your paragraph.
I am a perennial pessimist. Though I would like for our borders not only to remain open but for it to become even easier to immigrate into the U.S., I suspect that the efforts of short-sighted xenophobes will win out in the long run. And, if my suspicions prove to be true, then I'd like to see our War on Drugs ended as recompense.
My thoughts: somebody needs to fucking do something about these drug gangs. I've read that there are as many people in Mexican drug gangs as in the Mexican army. So, my question: What is feeding the drug lords/drug wars?
Scarcity.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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To supplement, 60% of the money drug lords get according to the Office of National Drug Control Policy (the official government agency devoted to drug prohibition, not some thinktank with a grandiose name) is based on Marijuana (a scant 28% on cocaine, 1% of meth). I see no reason why it wouldn't be accurate as a huge percent of America smokes or has smoked marijuana and almost all of it save home-grown products would be bought from people whose money eventually trickles back to drug lords.

At 60% of many gangs' income, the best crime-prevention technique would be to legalize Marijuana as a US monopoly, grow some great crops with all the agriscience we can use and the best GM shit we can come up with, and then subsidize it so buying even the best crop of marijuana is a better buy than the cheapest shit cut with god-knows-what you can find on a street corner. Suddenly, nobody would want to buy from drug dealers*, if you can get better and cheaper stuff with Uncle Sam fronting a large portion of the bill for you. And it'd mean 6 out of every 10 dollars that would go to gangs go to the US government's monopoly on marijuana production and thus into the revenue stream. Which can be used as funding for crime programs and anti-other-drug initiatives.

Even if Marijuana shouldn't be subsidized for some reason, such as if by some miracle it's proven Marijuana is harmful in some way, the US should at minimum take it up on themselves to legalize and monopolize it, if not encourage it, if only to deny the revenue stream to drug gangs- the societal benefit would be enormous. They could use the money on anti-marijuana propaganda if they like, even.

*Although I suppose home production could be kept around, for something like home-grown equivalents to microbreweries, but as long as United States Marijuana Company-brand marijuana is cheap, anyone but connoisseurs would not be wont to buy it, and thus money wouldn't be ending up in the pockets of drug gangs (and I doubt it'd be profitable for a gang to grow gourmet marijuana for a tiny but dedicated audience anyhow, so it's hardly a threat- and even if they could, it'd reduce their marketshare from "beer" to "microbrewery ale" levels).
Last edited by Duckie on 2010-04-22 10:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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Personally, I'd be in favor neither of subsidization or monopolization, except in select instances of medical marijuana. I don't see any reason to suspect that the drug lords could survive even legalization; the latter steps would likely be wasteful and unnecessary. On the whole, though, I certainly agree with you.
When the histories are written, I'll bet that the Old Right and the New Left are put down as having a lot in common and that the people in the middle will be the enemy.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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Einzige wrote:Personally, I'd be in favor neither of subsidization or monopolization, except in select instances of medical marijuana. I don't see any reason to suspect that the drug lords could survive even legalization; the latter steps would likely be wasteful and unnecessary. On the whole, though, I certainly agree with you.
I agree it's doubtful, but I figure that any sane program for deprohibition would stop after each step and check to see if it's accomplishing its goals- I went to the extreme just on the basis of leaving no stone unturned for what could be done to completely destroy marijuana ever being profitable for non-government sources (which is the ultimate in surety of not being able to be commercialised by gangs, unless drug lords are the government in which case there's a bigger problem).

Ultimately corporations easily out-muscle drug lords on marijuana production due to technical knowhow, sudden legality of advertising, and economy of scale. But on the same hand, I would prefer money reaped from money that should have gone to drug lords to be reinvested in anti-hard-drug programs and anti-organised-crime programs to further break up organised crime and fixing lower-class spirals of poverty and self-destruction. Unless you buy into some absurd Invisible Hand 'in the long run, unprofitably spending billions on fixing the plight of the lower class would get a new market base and slightly raised incomes for long, long times = profit' thousand yard future-vision that the market is supposed to have, Corps don't do public welfare like that, they'd just invest it in making more marijuana and getting more people to try it with advertisements.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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Duckie wrote:*That is not to say it should be legal and companies should sell people cocaine, but that addiction should be treated as an illness and result in rehab (forcible if necessary, like commitment to a mental institution). Instead, society treats it like a moral failing and people who are on drugs deserve to be locked up in prisons and then rehabilitated rather than just rehabilitated because... ? The marijuana prohibition, among others, however is just above and beyond the call of silly, since if tobacco and alcohol are illegal there's no reason to keep it illegal and scarce. Even if it were dangerous and not fit for public consumption, illegalising leaves it uncontrolled and accounting for the plurality of all drug lord revenues.
You know I was watching an episode of COPS the other day, and it really struck home how wrong-headed the current drug-war policy is.

They'd caught a guy otherwise going about his business with some drug - wasn't weed, either coke or meth. In any case, the guy had prior drug offenses, was on parole and was currently in a rehab program. When they arrested him, he was going to his job.

Now what's going to happen to that guy? He's got good odds of going right back to jail. Which means that the rehab program is out, and whatever job he had is definitely out. So you take a guy mostly on his way back to functionality and at least making the effort to improve - then reset him right back to square one because of a fuck-up.

What's that actually helping? What does continually ruining the guy's life over a recreational drug accomplish, besides keeping the prisons full?

I just can't see the point in criminalizing drug possession or use to that degree. Rehab programs at least make sense; this constant stream of zero-tolerance life-ruining, not so much.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

The biggest problem to any serious process of legalization is that it will take an absurdly long time. The prohibition on marijuana has resulted in the formation of a gigantic, monolithic administrative structure in the United States dedicated exclusively to preventing the sale/consumption of the drug. It will be an expensive and time-consuming process to strip down this body and create a new one geared towards production and quality control. Therefore, mobilizing politicians/bureaucrats to move in such a direction will be difficult.

(Of course, there already is a government sponsored marijuana farm, but the point stands.)
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by MKSheppard »

You know, I'm tired of the United States being Mexico's perpetual relief valve.

The Mexican Elite doesn't have to make any serious structural changes to how their country is run, governed, etc; since if things get bad enough, they can just look the other way as the excess population flees to the United States.

Close that relief valve shut, and watch as Mexico actually changes, rather than being a perpetual shithole.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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The problem with a pressure cooker, Shep, is sometimes you get something great and sometimes you just blow your hand off.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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MKSheppard wrote:You know, I'm tired of the United States being Mexico's perpetual relief valve.

The Mexican Elite doesn't have to make any serious structural changes to how their country is run, governed, etc; since if things get bad enough, they can just look the other way as the excess population flees to the United States.

Close that relief valve shut, and watch as Mexico actually changes, rather than being a perpetual shithole.
+1. Been thinking this, for decades now. Although we ought to assist them in making those structural changes, once they determine what they need to be, and once they commit in a serious way, to making them. And move ahead with decriminalization/regulation, since it's unreasonable to expect Mexicans to make much headway so long as we're pouring billions of $$$ into the drug organizations' bank accounts.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by MKSheppard »

Kanastrous wrote:+1. Been thinking this, for decades now.
You only need to look at the basic overall skin color of those who illegally cross over into the US and the basic overall skin color of the people who run Mexico.
And move ahead with decriminalization/regulation, since it's unreasonable to expect Mexicans to make much headway so long as we're pouring billions of $$$ into the drug organizations' bank accounts.
You do realize that money is fungible? These people who are druglords aren't going to become upstanding citizens by us simply legalizing pot? They'll just use their moneypiles to move further into other illegal activities, such as say, human smuggling.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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MKSheppard wrote:You do realize that money is fungible? These people who are druglords aren't going to become upstanding citizens by us simply legalizing pot? They'll just use their moneypiles to move further into other illegal activities, such as say, human smuggling.
The Mafia didn't vanish after they repealed prohibition, but by and large their power and audacity took a nose-dive.

Nobody thinks that legalizing it will do away with the mob entirely, but it would mean the differene between, say, the Mexican gangs' power being dialed back to roughly that of the Mafia now - primarily local interests - and police being gunned down at high noon en masse, as happened today in Juarez.
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Way to overwork a metaphor Shadow. I feel really creeped out now.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by General Mung Beans »

I take a rather liberal view on this issue. I support the legalisation of marijuana but not the hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin, LSD, methamphatamines, and so on. At the same time I think America needs to take concerted military and police action in Mexico to eradicate the drug lords which Mexico seems to be incapable of including but not limited to assassinating or kidnapping drug lords, (with Mexican approval) helping patrol the streets of border cities like Ciudad Juarez or Tijuana, and increased efforts at curbing the Mexican drug cartel branches in America.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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What if the Mexican government does not consent to our doing this?
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

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MKSheppard wrote:You know, I'm tired of the United States being Mexico's perpetual relief valve.

The Mexican Elite doesn't have to make any serious structural changes to how their country is run, governed, etc; since if things get bad enough, they can just look the other way as the excess population flees to the United States.
They've made plenty of changes, Shep. They moved to a much more liberalized economy in the 1990s (which is part of the reason why emigration from Mexico stepped up in that period - the termination of the ejido collective farm program and the opening to US agricultural products threw much of rural Mexico into economic and social chaos), have reformed their judicial system (one of the laws they passed a year or two back began the process of actually switching to a more open trial system than the current "judgment behind closed doors" system they've had for decades), are trying to reform their police force (but it's hard when you have rampant corruption at the local level), and went through considerable political reform (perhaps you noticed that the PRI is no longer dominating the Mexican federal government?).

Hell, one of the reasons why they're having the violence now is because Vicente Fox (the previous President of Mexico) refused to make the pay-offs to the gangs that prior Presidents had made for decades, and his successor, Felipe Calderon, has been actively going after them in major trafficking routes (like Ciudad Juarez).
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by General Mung Beans »

Simon_Jester wrote:What if the Mexican government does not consent to our doing this?
Than it is too bad for us but we can still can work to be tougher against drug cartel members in America (not against illegal immigrants in general)
El Moose Monstero: That would be the winning song at Eurovision. I still say the Moldovans were more fun. And that one about the Apricot Tree.
That said...it is growing on me.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Simon_Jester wrote:What if the Mexican government does not consent to our doing this?
Why my dear Simon, then its time for War Plan Green
The national objectives - political , economic, military - were to conduct a military and naval intervention in Mexico for the establishment of law and order from both an international and internal viewpoint. This involves a pacification of the country, the reorganization of the government and the modification of the laws of the country to insure the establishment of the rights of foreiqners in Mexico.

The General Concept of Operations called for a naval blockade and immediate seizure of Mexican ports, along with the closure of the northern border by the Army. b[]This would be followed by an invasion by the Army, of Mexico. The Army would occupy all or that portion of Mexico necessary to suppress querilla warfare and bandit operations.[/b]
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

Haven't we had enough of forcibly changing regiemes, let alone those belonging to our ostensible allies?

I think pulling that would be... Um... Disastrous, to say the least. Mexico may not be a NATO member, but... Well, I think by that point the rest of the world would be seriously considering regieme-changing us because we'd have proven to be dangerous unstable and prone to invading any hot country populated by darker-skinned people than us at the drop of a hat.
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Way to overwork a metaphor Shadow. I feel really creeped out now.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by Phantasee »

General Mung Beans wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:What if the Mexican government does not consent to our doing this?
Than it is too bad for us but we can still can work to be tougher against drug cartel members in America (not against illegal immigrants in general)
Do you have any ideas for how we can do this or is it just more of the usual "tough on crime" talk that gets trotted out all the time?
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by Starglider »

General Mung Beans wrote:hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin, LSD
LSD is a hard drug? Evidence for it being any more damaging than cannabis / alcohol / tobacco? Obviously there can sometimes be psychological issues, but it's still pretty trivial compared to the damage cocaine and heroin do.

Not that it's terribly relevant as LSD isn't currently that popular. Legalising MDMA would be more sensible and useful.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Haven't we had enough of forcibly changing regiemes, let alone those belonging to our ostensible allies?

I think pulling that would be... Um... Disastrous, to say the least. Mexico may not be a NATO member, but... Well, I think by that point the rest of the world would be seriously considering regieme-changing us because we'd have proven to be dangerous unstable and prone to invading any hot country populated by darker-skinned people than us at the drop of a hat.
On the bright side, though, if we invade Mexico alot of our troops can just commute from home to the front.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by PhilosopherOfSorts »

Starglider wrote:
General Mung Beans wrote:hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin, LSD
LSD is a hard drug? Evidence for it being any more damaging than cannabis / alcohol / tobacco? Obviously there can sometimes be psychological issues, but it's still pretty trivial compared to the damage cocaine and heroin do.

Not that it's terribly relevant as LSD isn't currently that popular. Legalising MDMA would be more sensible and useful.
LSD is no joke, sure, you won't die from it, but the effects are unpredictable and the psychological problems from it can be severe. Some people who take that trip just don't come back, I think that makes it more dangerous than pot, booze, or tobacco.
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Re: Fleeing drug wars, Mexicans flood into U.S.

Post by ThomasP »

PhilosopherOfSorts wrote:LSD is no joke, sure, you won't die from it, but the effects are unpredictable and the psychological problems from it can be severe. Some people who take that trip just don't come back, I think that makes it more dangerous than pot, booze, or tobacco.
Is this based on any real medical evidence or science, or is it just an urban myth?

I've heard all of that myself, of course, but I haven't reviewed any of the literature on LSD and its actual effects, so I'm curious as to how true this is.
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