24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

Post by Thanas »

Independent
American officials have reacted with dismay to the charge by the former head of MI5 that US authorities deliberately concealed mistreatment of terror suspects from their British colleagues. The unexpected public statement by Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller is said to have significantly added to the strains in the relationship between the two countries on intelligence matters.

At the same time, the former secret service chief faced criticism from human rights groups who expressed scepticism about her claims of being kept in the dark by Washington. Amnesty International said it was "extremely surprising" that she and her organisation were unaware of the allegations of abuse which were being widely aired.

The Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said Dame Eliza's "revelations make an unanswerable case for a judicial inquiry into the alleged mistreatment and torture by security services".

Dame Eliza's condemnation of American conduct during the war on terror comes in the wake of consternation in Washington over a decision by High Court judges in London to release sensitive, US-supplied information on the Guantanamo detainee Binyam Mohamed. There was also angry condemnation across the Atlantic of the release of Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi, the Libyan convicted of the Lockerbie bombing.

During a lecture given at a meeting in the House of Lords, Dame Eliza said the British government had made an official complaint to Washington over the abuse of detainees. But no futher details have emerged on either side of the Atlantic of when this complaint was made, or what form it took.

In her speech, highly critical of the US's conduct during the war on terror, the former secret service chief implied that the leadership in Washington was inspired by watching the TV espionage thriller 24. She said: "Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld certainly watched 24". Dame Eliza said: "The Americans were very keen that people like us did not discover what they were doing." She insisted that she had been unaware of what was going on until her retirement in 2007.

One of her retrospective discoveries was the interrogation method used on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. When she asked her subordinates why the senior al-Qa'ida member was offering so much information, they told her he was "very proud of his achievements when questioned". She added: "It wasn't actually until after I retired that I read that he had been water-boarded 160 times."

The White House refused to comment on Dame Eliza's allegations yesterday. However, US security officials were said to feel particularly let down that the charges had come from someone in her senior position, and denied that American intelligence had used subterfuge with British colleagues.

A senior Pentagon official said there was "a degree of understanding" in the cases of Binyam Mohamed and Mr Megrahi, because the hands of the British authorities had been forced by the courts. The official added: "It is not correct to say that we had kept relevant information from the Brits. There are also a number of other points to consider. Khalid Mohammed was not a British subject and not a British responsibility.

"Things are also done on a need-to-know basis. What was there to say that, in that case, too, the courts would not have directed agencies in the UK to disclose sensitive material? I would also like to point out that the Brits were always very happy to receive information we gave them emanating from Mohammed."

Asked whether President George W Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld watched 24, the official said: "We are not aware of their television habits. It's quite an image though. These three busy guys sitting down together at a very busy time to get their lead from Jack Bauer."

Tim Hancock, UK campaigns director of Amnesty International, said: "Numerous allegations of US mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo and Bagram were emerging from the beginning of the war on terror. Did MI5 learn nothing of this, even when members of the security service interviewed nine British nationals at Guantanamo in 2003?

"We also know from the Binyam Mohamed case that the security service was told by US officials that Mr Mohamed was kept shackled, deprived of sleep and threatened with being 'disappeared' by his US interrogators."

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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

Post by open_sketchbook »

24 is an entertaining trip into so bad it's good, not something to model government policy on. Toture only works for Jack Bauer because he's Jack fucking Bauer, he's a federal agent whose running out of time, and he needs a hacksaw to get the guy to tell him where Marwan is before Tony quintuple crosses him.

I mean, there is even an obvious difference between what Jack Bauer does and the government's "enhanced interrogation" bullshit. Jack Bauer totures people because the bomb is going off in five minutes, because the russian terrorist is getting away right now, or because his daughter has been taken hostage and he needs to go be awesome by the end of the episode. I don't ever remember him holding some dude in a cell for six years and toturing them for out-of-day information and manufactured confessions.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

Post by Aaron »

Maybe this is a hijack but I've often wondered how this works. Do they just keep water-boarding/beating the shit of a guy until he runs out of things to make up (assume he's innocent), how do they verify any of this stuff?
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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Cpl Kendall wrote:Maybe this is a hijack but I've often wondered how this works. Do they just keep water-boarding/beating the shit of a guy until he runs out of things to make up (assume he's innocent), how do they verify any of this stuff?
They don't. That's the whole fucking point. After 160 sessions the guy isn't going to come up with anything new. If he spills his guts he spills his guts. Everything after that is just B.S. to try and make em stop drowning him. But this bunch of assholes just keeps on waterboarding him because.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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open_sketchbook wrote:24 is an entertaining trip into so bad it's good, not something to model government policy on. Toture only works for Jack Bauer because he's Jack fucking Bauer, he's a federal agent whose running out of time, and he needs a hacksaw to get the guy to tell him where Marwan is before Tony quintuple crosses him.

I mean, there is even an obvious difference between what Jack Bauer does and the government's "enhanced interrogation" bullshit. Jack Bauer totures people because the bomb is going off in five minutes, because the russian terrorist is getting away right now, or because his daughter has been taken hostage and he needs to go be awesome by the end of the episode. I don't ever remember him holding some dude in a cell for six years and toturing them for out-of-day information and manufactured confessions.
Nevertheless, someone needs to point out the irony of the right-wing ranting continuously about "Hollywood celebrities" while using a Hollywood TV show as a guidebook for national policy. We've even seen clips of Republican politicians actually mentioning Jack Bauer in public while talking about torture issues.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

Post by Patrick Degan »

I've always thought of 24 as deliberate propaganda to condition the American people to comfortable acceptance of the use of torture as legitimate. I rather doubt that it inspired the Bush Mob, given that they were already evident sociopaths.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

Post by MKSheppard »

Cpl Kendall wrote:Maybe this is a hijack but I've often wondered how this works. Do they just keep water-boarding/beating the shit of a guy until he runs out of things to make up (assume he's innocent), how do they verify any of this stuff?
Because you know, we take the guy at his word uncritically, because we capture the guy completely naked, with no supporting evidence, no laptop, no cell phone, no intricately written notes from the head boss, no traceable anything, and we don't cross check what he says with what we're getting from other sources, such as informants, signals traffic intercepts via ECHELON, etc.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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MKSheppard wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:Maybe this is a hijack but I've often wondered how this works. Do they just keep water-boarding/beating the shit of a guy until he runs out of things to make up (assume he's innocent), how do they verify any of this stuff?
Because you know, we take the guy at his word uncritically, because we capture the guy completely naked, with no supporting evidence, no laptop, no cell phone, no intricately written notes from the head boss, no traceable anything, and we don't cross check what he says with what we're getting from other sources, such as informants, signals traffic intercepts via ECHELON, etc.
How do you know that this didn't happen in some cases?
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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MKSheppard wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:Maybe this is a hijack but I've often wondered how this works. Do they just keep water-boarding/beating the shit of a guy until he runs out of things to make up (assume he's innocent), how do they verify any of this stuff?
Because you know, we take the guy at his word uncritically, because we capture the guy completely naked, with no supporting evidence, no laptop, no cell phone, no intricately written notes from the head boss, no traceable anything, and we don't cross check what he says with what we're getting from other sources, such as informants, signals traffic intercepts via ECHELON, etc.
If that doesn't work out, you could ask the North Koreans for pointers about the finer aspects of torture. I'm sure they would share for food or something.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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Atlan wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:Maybe this is a hijack but I've often wondered how this works. Do they just keep water-boarding/beating the shit of a guy until he runs out of things to make up (assume he's innocent), how do they verify any of this stuff?
They don't. That's the whole fucking point. After 160 sessions the guy isn't going to come up with anything new. If he spills his guts he spills his guts. Everything after that is just B.S. to try and make em stop drowning him. But this bunch of assholes just keeps on waterboarding him because.
Looks like making an example of someone to control a targeted group. No offense needed. In fact a predictable reason and expectation of any kind of 'fair' process defuses terror. A level of compliance will usually follow just because of fear. Resistance may form, but its almost certain someone will turn coat and resistance cells will always be distracted by their fear and perhaps make mistakes they would otherwise not make. There may be a level of cross-checking as Shep suggests, to reduce wastage of time and resources.

It may cause more problems than it could possibly solve, but that's like telling a serial kidnapper/killer he's botched any chance of establishing a positive relationship with the victim.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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General Brock wrote:
Atlan wrote:
Cpl Kendall wrote:Maybe this is a hijack but I've often wondered how this works. Do they just keep water-boarding/beating the shit of a guy until he runs out of things to make up (assume he's innocent), how do they verify any of this stuff?
They don't. That's the whole fucking point. After 160 sessions the guy isn't going to come up with anything new. If he spills his guts he spills his guts. Everything after that is just B.S. to try and make em stop drowning him. But this bunch of assholes just keeps on waterboarding him because.
Looks like making an example of someone to control a targeted group.
Then they wouldn't have tried to keep it secret; you can't terrorize people with something they don't know is happening.
General Brock wrote: There may be a level of cross-checking as Shep suggests, to reduce wastage of time and resources.
Unlikely. People don't torture because they want the truth; there are far better methods for getting it. People torture out of cruelty, to produce terror, or because they want to hear lies. In any of those cases, either they won't care about the facts, or will be actively trying to ignore them; so I see no reason to think they'd bother cross checking anything. Besides; if anyone contradicts what they got out of the torture victim, they can just torture that guy too until he starts telling them what they want to hear.

And when did the Bush Administration show enough concern for what the facts were that they'd bother to crosscheck anything? I don't think it's a coincidence that an Administration that believed that "we make our own reality" was fond of torture; torture is very good at making people tell you what you want to believe is true. It won't get you the facts, but if you don't care about facts or think that you can just make them up, that doesn't matter.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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Lord of the Abyss wrote:
[Snip]
General Brock wrote: Looks like making an example of someone to control a targeted group.
Then they wouldn't have tried to keep it secret; you can't terrorize people with something they don't know is happening.
Secret to us, not necessarily to the targeted people. But yeah, conscientious wasn't exactly a Bush Admin byword.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

Post by Flagg »

Patrick Degan wrote:I've always thought of 24 as deliberate propaganda to condition the American people to comfortable acceptance of the use of torture as legitimate. I rather doubt that it inspired the Bush Mob, given that they were already evident sociopaths.
I wondered about that myself until I realized it was just a device to move the plot along. So yeah, Bush and Cheney used a plot device on a TV show to justify war crimes.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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MKSheppard wrote: Because you know, we take the guy at his word uncritically, because we capture the guy completely naked, with no supporting evidence, no laptop, no cell phone, no intricately written notes from the head boss, no traceable anything, and we don't cross check what he says with what we're getting from other sources, such as informants, signals traffic intercepts via ECHELON, etc.
Yeah thanks dude, I knew all that. Now what do they do if they can't verify anything? Just keep it up till they get something they can?

Perhaps an obscure 1950's graph would help?

Edit: Anyways, you guys want to torture folks, go ahead. It just seems rather asinine when you can sit down and chat with them ala the German dude Thanas always posts.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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The irony is, in the 24-verse, Jack is willing to be tried and take his lumps for these things and certainly doesn't do this shit for fun. The GOP members who take fictional characters as role models need to take a dose of reality, stat. It's not even like these methods are even that effective when compared to that of Hans Scharff.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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It's not surprising. Look at how many middle-aged war whores were inspired by Rambo movies. A generation ago it was John Wayne movies (the bad ones). You're talking about people who think science is "biased" and that "reality based" is an insult. When you add in sadism (the central organizing principle of the GOP) it's only natural that the chronically semen-crusted would be so fond of torture -especially when it's done to dark-skinned people.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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The irony is, in the 24-verse, Jack is willing to be tried and take his lumps for these things and certainly doesn't do this shit for fun. The GOP members who take fictional characters as role models need to take a dose of reality, stat. It's not even like these methods are even that effective when compared to that of Hans Scharff.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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I remember reading that real interrogators pointed out that 24 got it wrong, and that the first thing you do is make the guy trust you. In short, they are borrowing from a show that doesn't even get it right.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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Which doesn't make for good drama. Borrowing from ANY show is retarded unless it's a documentary, since you could level the same criticism at any CSI episode if the Bush administration went and demanded we have all our cops outfitted with what they use. PCR this blood sample in under 10 minutes, Mister Lab Tech Cum Super Cop? Yeah!

I'd find it terrifying that any person in power was using a TV show or movie or comic book as a basis for policy. Only in America, eh?
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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MKSheppard wrote:Because you know, we take the guy at his word uncritically, because we capture the guy completely naked, with no supporting evidence, no laptop, no cell phone, no intricately written notes from the head boss, no traceable anything, and we don't cross check what he says with what we're getting from other sources, such as informants, signals traffic intercepts via ECHELON, etc.
So anyone and everyone in Gitmo et al are all totally 100% guilty because ECHELON says so and because we can totally be assured of the American government doing its job right?

Because, you know, you take the guy at his word uncritically, because one of his neighbors who didn't like him just turned him in for some crappy reward money? Doesn't that happen? And having female interrogators wipe fake menstrual blood on very religious Muslim prisoners is totally somehow an efficient interrogation tactic?

OOOH! OOOH! I got something better!

Because, you know, we totally invaded Iraq under the premise of WMD scare with no supporting evidence, no laptop, no cell phone, no intricately written notes from the head boss, no traceable anything, and we don't cross check what people say with what we're getting from other sources, such as informants, signals traffic intercepts via ECHELON, etc.

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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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I'm reminded of the cold case episode where it turns out that the confession used to send two innocent people to prison was gained by targeting the weaker kid and beating and threatening him until he gave the cop the answer he wanted to hear.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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Shroom Man 777 wrote:Because, you know, we totally invaded Iraq under the premise of WMD scare with no supporting evidence, no laptop, no cell phone, no intricately written notes from the head boss, no traceable anything, and we don't cross check what people say with what we're getting from other sources, such as informants, signals traffic intercepts via ECHELON, etc.
Actually, we did invade Iraq on pretty good evidence.

(Remember, it wasn't just the US and UK intel services who believed saddam had a WMD program, a whole bunch of other countries also believed the same thing based on intel from their own services -- ref France/Germany.)

It's just that the entire thing was without a doubt, the best intelligence deception operation ever carried out by an Arab state -- in order to make Iraq look stronger than it is, to scare away the Americans and Iranians, we'll make it look like we have a WMD program, when we don't! The entire thing was on par with what the Mossad did.

Too bad they did their job so well that people actually believed them; and we thus invaded Iraq. :lol:
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

Post by Darth Yan »

Doesn't change the fact that Bush knowingly lied to congress now does it? Nor does it change that the weapon's inspectors found nothing. Face it Shep. We had no evidence.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

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MKSheppard wrote:(Remember, it wasn't just the US and UK intel services who believed saddam had a WMD program, a whole bunch of other countries also believed the same thing based on intel from their own services -- ref France/Germany.)
Wrong.
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Re: 24 inspired Bush, Cheney+torture

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Well, I guess, if the CIA waterboarded people before invading Iraq then America would not have been fooled by that WMD trick, eh Shep? :P
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