Israel => fundamentalist shithole

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Darth Wong »

From the Globe and Mail:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opi ... le1302318/
A hostile takeover of Zionism
Patrick Martin
Jerusalem — From Saturday's Globe and Mail Last updated on Monday, Sep. 28, 2009 02:14AM EDT

Israel's ultra-Orthodox Jewish community has come a long way.

No longer are they the inward-looking anti-Zionists who only cared that the government provide them with money for their separate schools, welfare and exemptions from military service. These days, many of the Haredim – the word means “those who tremble” in awe of God” – have joined with right-wing religious Zionists to become a powerful political force.

They now are equipped to redefine the country's politics and to set a new agenda.

Two decades ago, they were confined mostly to a few neighbourhoods in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Today, they have spread throughout the country, in substantial numbers in several major communities, as well as building completely new towns only for their followers.

One Haredi leader who almost won Jerusalem's mayoralty race last fall, boasts that, within 20 years, the ultra-Orthodox will control the municipal government of every city in the country. And why not? Of the Jewish Israeli children entering primary school for the first time this month, more than 25 per cent are Haredi, and that proportion will keep growing. There are between 600,000 and 700,000 Haredim in Israel, and they average 8.8 children a family.

A decade ago, there were almost no Haredim in the West Bank settlements. Today, the two largest settlements are entirely ultra-Orthodox, and the Haredim are about a third of the almost 300,000 settlers.

Now that they have tightened the rules on who can be a Jew and have forced the public bus company to provide gender-segregated buses in many communities, a discouraged secular community is starting to emigrate.

Nehemia Shtrasler, a business and political columnist for the Haaretz newspaper, wrote this summer that the country is risking destruction. “We will survive the conflict with the Palestinians and even the nuclear threats from Iran,” he wrote. “But the increasing rupture between the secular and ultra-Orthodox communities in Israel will be the end of us.” Mr. Shtrasler said: “It's a struggle between two contradictory worldviews that cannot exist side by side.

Will Israel adhere to its founding secular values or will it become a theocratic Jewish state?

Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has been toiling for decades to make Israel a Halachic state (one that adheres to Jewish religious law). The former chief Sephardi rabbi (from 1983 to 1993) was one of five men who founded the Brit Hakanaim – the Covenant of Zealots – an underground organization of the early 1950s that attacked non-kosher butcher shops and torched cars that were driven on the Sabbath.

Rabbi Eliyahu was imprisoned for 10 months after an apparent plot to attack the Knesset was uncovered. He said at his trial that Israel was turning against God's will when it proposed a law to draft women into the military. Their place is in the home, he insisted, and still insists.

He was the spiritual adviser to Meir Kahane, founder of the racist Kach Party that was banned from the Knesset, and later outlawed completely when one of its members murdered 29 Muslims at prayer in Hebron in 1994. He has long urged the release from prison of Yigal Amir, who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin in 1995.

Rabbi Eliyahu had his greatest impact as spiritual leader of Israel's National Religious Party. He believed that the line separating the Orthodox from the Haredim was artificial and that many Haredim could be brought into the nationalist camp.

The rabbi has an exclusive view of who really is a Jew, having denounced Reform and Conservative synagogues as “reeking of hell.” And he has often said that democracy has no place in Judaism.

SURPRISING MERGER

Rabbi Eliyahu and his followers have succeeded in tying the knot between Haredim and religious nationalists. There is even a new name for the new group, the Hardal, derived from Haredim and Mafdal (the acronym for the National Religious Party).

While the NRP has disappeared, the ideas and the name have grown. The powerful Shas Party, of Sephardi and Haredi disciples, is the best example.

Together, the Hardal are 20 per cent of the Jewish population, says Nachman Ben Yehuda, a sociologist at Hebrew University whose book on the Haredim, Theocratic Democracy , is to be published next year.

Such a merger is quite a feat, considering the anti-Zionist origins of the Haredim.

During the age of enlightenment in the 18th century, the first Haredi communities took shape, as an attempt to maintain distinctive Jewish communities when many Jews were being lured into liberal European culture. Haredi rabbis targeted, first, the Reform Jewish movement and, later, the Zionist movement, as abominations counter to God's will.

They opposed the creation of Israel, arguing that using the holy Hebrew language for daily discourse and having “unbelievers” proclaim a “Jewish state” were sacrilegious. Some insisted that the Zionist project brought down the wrath of God in the form of the Holocaust.

For Israel's first four decades, Haredi leaders continued to oppose it, even as many gravitated to the state.

“There still is a strong anti-Zionist aspect,” said Prof. Ben Yehuda, “but most Haredi leaders have been persuaded that if there must be a Jewish state, then it should be run properly, as a theocracy.”

In the Haredim, the religious Zionists have acquired potent allies. Their followers obey orders without question. “They fear excommunication,” explained Prof. Ben Yehuda. “They are largely unprepared for surviving outside their tight-knit communities.”

The two groups are united in wanting greater religiosity in Israel.

They seek strict adherence to Biblical rules governing the Sabbath, to Halachic rules concerning food, to age-old traditions of separating men from women, and to the strict observance of Orthodoxy in all aspects of people's lives, from birth, through education, marriage and death to burial.

They also want their rules to be followed in deciding just who is a Jew and who therefore can enjoy the privileges of a Jewish state.

To obtain these goals they have influenced the platforms and growth of political parties, appointments to the rabbinical courts and government policy.

As a result, religious schools get a disproportionate share of the education budget, El Al planes don't fly on the Sabbath and publicly run buses are segregated on a growing number of runs.

DEMOCRACY IN QUESTION

Ironically, considering these religious leaders have made such use of the democratic process, they continue to say democracy is not consistent with Halacha.

“In many ways these guys are closer to Islamic fundamentalists than to anything else,” Prof. Ben Yehuda said.

They also do not shrink from violence.

Prof. Ben Yehuda's research found that violence is the number-one criminal infraction among Haredim. He also found that most of that violence is for political purposes.

This past summer witnessed many vivid examples. Thousands of Haredim rioted on several successive Saturdays to protest the opening on the Sabbath of a privately owned parking garage near the Old City of Jerusalem; thousands more rioted when social-services personnel arrested a Haredi woman in Jerusalem who was starving her child.

This week, a young woman was beaten for not being dressed modestly enough in the central Israeli town of Beit Shemish. The town, where many Sephardi refugees settled in the 1950s, recently has had an influx of Haredim. Earlier this month, a man and woman were beaten by Haredi youth when the two sat next to each other on a bus bound for the town.

Violence has become so widespread that there are Haredi communities where the police won't go. This summer, a police car was torched and several officers injured when attacked by a rock-throwing mob, when the police responded to a call for help.

It's upsetting to many Israelis, such as the columnist Nehemia Shtrasler, but when Haredi neighbourhoods become no-go zones for authorities, and when people must think twice before opening a private business on the Sabbath, the violence is having its desired effect.

And, as the Haredi community expands and finds government funding harder to come by, growing numbers of Haredi women and men will be compelled to enter the work force. The impact of that, says Prof. Ben Yehuda, is that businesses and workplaces will be forced to comply with the religious demands of their new workers.

Already, he said, in high-tech workplaces, where many Haredim work, the offices are segregated and cafeteria food is kosher.

Even in the Israel Defence Forces, the Haredim are having an effect. An exclusive Haredi battalion has been created, to accommodate a growing number of ultra-Orthodox who want to serve.

In other battalions, religious Zionists have refused to ride in military vehicles driven by women. Their demands have reportedly been met.

With the demographic shift in favour of the Haredim only going up, those in the private sector, government and the military who decline to accommodate Haredi demands will become fewer and fewer.

And with growing numbers of Haredim in West Bank settlements, Israel's conflict with the Palestinians takes on an increasingly religious fervour.

Prof. Ben Yehuda has no doubt that many of the country's emigrants are leaving, in part, because of the rise of the Hardal. But it's not the major reason, he says.

“However, as this place becomes more and more like Iran, the secular community will leave in droves.”

So, is Israel to be a Jewish state, or a state of the Jews?

“Jews come in many forms,” notes Prof. Ben Yehuda: “Reform, Conservative, traditional, secular, as well as Orthodox.”

Should one group get to determine what rules the country will follow?
How long are we going to continue knee-jerk defending this worsening race-state, as it totters toward the Bronze Age theocracy that was its original inspiration from Day One?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
The Grim Squeaker
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10314
Joined: 2005-06-01 01:44am
Location: A different time-space Continuum
Contact:

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Darth Wong wrote: How long are we going to continue knee-jerk defending this worsening race-state, as it totters toward the Bronze Age theocracy that was its original inspiration from Day One?
About as long as people defend America as being a democracy with a very high standard of living, civil rights and advancement compared to over 80% of the world, despite it being full of insane fundamentalist evangelicals or clinic bombers?
Photography
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Darth Wong »

The Grim Squeaker wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:How long are we going to continue knee-jerk defending this worsening race-state, as it totters toward the Bronze Age theocracy that was its original inspiration from Day One?
About as long as people defend America as being a democracy with a very high standard of living, civil rights and advancement compared to over 80% of the world, despite it being full of insane fundamentalist evangelicals or clinic bombers?
You're full of shit. The United States has plenty of problems, but you don't have entire fucking communities where the buses are segregated due to fundamentalist pressure. Moreover, it was not founded in the first place as an attempt to recreate a nation which was itself a Bronze Age theocracy. And finally, very few people leap up to defend the US the way the US leaps up to defend Israel. In short, your retort is wrong on pretty much every conceivable level.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
mr friendly guy
The Doctor
Posts: 11235
Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by mr friendly guy »

From what I understand, a high percentage of them don't actually work, although that may change according to the article as government hand outs become less. However if their numbers continue to go up as a percentage of the population, and a lot of them still continues to rely on government subsidies, won't Israel run the risk of being a welfare state?

In which case how will Israel find the funds to a) continue subdisizing these people b) continue to run government services including its military. Especially if more secular Jews move out as the article fears.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Interestingly enough, the Israeli government pays Jews to procreate. Apparently, that's how one cult leader with ... 30 or so wives and many many children managed to get by.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
wautd
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7579
Joined: 2004-02-11 10:11am
Location: Intensive care

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by wautd »

Hmm, a fundamentalist theocracy with nukes...

What could possibly go wrong?

They also want their rules to be followed in deciding just who is a Jew and who therefore can enjoy the privileges of a Jewish state.
Enyone else sees public stoning becoming an acceptible way of punishment again? Christian fundies always point that OT-laws are only for Jews. Does the Torah mentions any stoning?
Yona
Youngling
Posts: 95
Joined: 2009-09-07 08:43pm
Location: N E Wisconsin

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Yona »

Darth Wong wrote:
The Grim Squeaker wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:How long are we going to continue knee-jerk defending this worsening race-state, as it totters toward the Bronze Age theocracy that was its original inspiration from Day One?
About as long as people defend America as being a democracy with a very high standard of living, civil rights and advancement compared to over 80% of the world, despite it being full of insane fundamentalist evangelicals or clinic bombers?
You're full of shit. The United States has plenty of problems, but you don't have entire fucking communities where the buses are segregated due to fundamentalist pressure. Moreover, it was not founded in the first place as an attempt to recreate a nation which was itself a Bronze Age theocracy. And finally, very few people leap up to defend the US the way the US leaps up to defend Israel. In short, your retort is wrong on pretty much every conceivable level.
A trip to the "porcelain" will cure that. :wink: Unfortunately,... Grim is partially correct. Things are worsening in this country. I don't think it is worse in Israel, but I do think their problems with their "nuts" are exacerbated by the "nuts" on the other side.

We, in the US, have a major political party that openly panders to our radical right. They are blatantly open about it, have done it for many years, and continue to do so even when their policies lead to financial collapse and unneeded wars. They actually promote racism, prejudice and hatred as "Patriotic". It masks the base level greed of the real power brokers of said party.

Some groups openly advocate their particular brand of prejudice as the basis for state sponsored Religion. We have a so called "Preacher", Stephen L. Anderson, in the South West openly praying for Presidential assassination. Some Pro-lifers have decided that it is OK to TAKE a life. Militias are flourishing, as are "special" hate groups.

As to whole communities that are segregated, we do have whole counties in some Southern states that still have "sundown" laws in effect.

The nut balls are loose, these people actually believe they are right, and they are breeding.
The "Stupid Gene" is alive and well ! It resides in many forms, mostly in the "new" crop of Republicans !
erik_t
Jedi Master
Posts: 1108
Joined: 2008-10-21 08:35pm

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by erik_t »

Any poll I've seen of social issues indicates that, if anything, the rest of the population of the US is liberalizing faster than the right-wing crazies can breed. See here or here or here.

The US certainly seems to becoming more polarized in terms of political viewpoints, but the data do not bear out the suggestion that the country is trending to the right. Far from it.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Darth Wong »

Yona wrote:We, in the US, have a major political party that openly panders to our radical right. They are blatantly open about it, have done it for many years, and continue to do so even when their policies lead to financial collapse and unneeded wars. They actually promote racism, prejudice and hatred as "Patriotic". It masks the base level greed of the real power brokers of said party.
They were much worse in the 1950s. Pretty much everything was worse in the 1950s, unless you were a male WASP bigot.
Some groups openly advocate their particular brand of prejudice as the basis for state sponsored Religion. We have a so called "Preacher", Stephen L. Anderson, in the South West openly praying for Presidential assassination. Some Pro-lifers have decided that it is OK to TAKE a life. Militias are flourishing, as are "special" hate groups.
Again, it's gotten better, not worse.
As to whole communities that are segregated, we do have whole counties in some Southern states that still have "sundown" laws in effect.
Operative word: "still have". It was worse in the past. In Israel's case, things are getting worse.
The nut balls are loose, these people actually believe they are right, and they are breeding.
I'm not sure how the demographic trends work out, but there is certainly no sign of a secular exodus yet.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Lonestar
Keeper of the Schwartz
Posts: 13321
Joined: 2003-02-13 03:21pm
Location: The Bay Area

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Lonestar »

Sundown laws were largely in the Midwest and West, not "the South", Yona. Southern institutional rascism was more overt, in that they didn't kick every colored out and say "we don't have any race problems in this town!" The difference is such that if you ask someone from the Deep South about Sundown towns you'll get a blank look(they don't understand the terminology) but someone from Indiana, Wisconsin, or Iowa and they'll nod knowingly.

I recommend you go read Sundown Towns by James Loewen.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."
General Trelane (Retired)
Jedi Knight
Posts: 620
Joined: 2002-07-31 05:27pm
Location: Gothos

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

wautd wrote:Enyone else sees public stoning becoming an acceptible way of punishment again? Christian fundies always point that OT-laws are only for Jews. Does the Torah mentions any stoning?
Christian fundies actually believe that the OT laws still apply to Christians except for those that were explicitly abrogated by Jesus. Hence the ultra-fundie Reconstructionist movement that wants America to implement Mosaic Law.

The Torah is essentially the first five books of the OT and yes, it does include death by stoning as the penalty for a multitude of infractions.
Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Paine, Common Sense, 1776
User avatar
tim31
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3388
Joined: 2006-10-18 03:32am
Location: Tasmania, Australia

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by tim31 »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Interestingly enough, the Israeli government pays Jews to procreate. Apparently, that's how one cult leader with ... 30 or so wives and many many children managed to get by.
We do that here in Australia. Last I heard it was about AUD$5,000 per child.
lol, opsec doesn't apply to fanfiction. -Aaron

PRFYNAFBTFC
CAPTAIN OF MFS SAMMY HAGAR
ImageImage
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by General Zod »

tim31 wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Interestingly enough, the Israeli government pays Jews to procreate. Apparently, that's how one cult leader with ... 30 or so wives and many many children managed to get by.
We do that here in Australia. Last I heard it was about AUD$5,000 per child.
We have something similar in the US, where you can get a $1,000 tax credit per child. I think even the UK has something like it. Can't say this is terribly surprising though, given how strict Judaism is about converts.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Samuel »

Wow- I just saw a similar article at spacebattles. Which is disturbing in an entirely different way. Anyone know if the National is a reputalbe source?

http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll ... 49932/1002
Israeli drive to prevent Jewish girls dating Arabs
Jonathan Cook, Foreign Correspondent

Last Updated: September 25. 2009 1:57PM UAE / September 25. 2009 9:57AM GMT NAZARETH // A local authority in Israel has announced that it is establishing a special team of youth counsellors and psychologists whose job it will be to identify young Jewish women who are dating Arab men and “rescue” them.

The move by the municipality of Petah Tikva, a city close to Tel Aviv, is the latest in a series of separate – and little discussed – initiatives from official bodies, rabbis, private organisations and groups of Israeli residents to try to prevent interracial dating and marriage.

In a related development, the Israeli media reported this month that residents of Pisgat Zeev, a large Jewish settlement in the midst of Palestinian neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem, had formed a vigilante-style patrol to stop Arab men from mixing with local Jewish girls.

Hostility to intimate relationships developing across Israel’s ethnic divide is shared by many Israeli Jews, who regard such behaviour as a threat to the state’s Jewishness. One of the few polls on the subject, in 2007, found that more than half of Israeli Jews believed intermarriage should be equated with “national treason”.

Since the state’s founding in 1948, analysts have noted, a series of legal and administrative measures have been taken by Israel to limit the possibilities of close links developing between Jewish and Arab citizens, the latter comprising a fifth of the population.

Largely segregated communities and separate education systems mean that there are few opportunities for young Arabs and Jews to become familiarised with each other. Even in the handful of “mixed cities”, Arab residents are usually confined to separate neighbourhoods.

In addition, civil marriage is banned in Israel, meaning that in the small number of cases where Jews and Arabs want to wed, they can do so only by leaving the country for a ceremony abroad. The marriage is recognised on the couple’s return.

Dr Yuval Yonay, a sociologist at Haifa University, said the number of interracial marriages was “too small to be studied”. “Separation between Jews and Arabs is so ingrained in Israeli society, it is surprising that anyone manages to escape these central controls.”

The team in Petah Tikva, a Jewish city of 200,000 residents, was created in direct response to news that two Jewish girls, aged 17 and 19, were accompanying a group of young Arab men when they allegedly beat a Jewish man, Leonard Karp, to death last month on a Tel Aviv beach. The older girl was from Petah Tikva.

The girls’ involvement with the Arab youths has revived general concern that a once-firm taboo against interracial dating is beginning to erode among some young people.

In sentiments widely shared, Mr Hakak, a spokesman for Petah Tikva municipality, said “Russian girls”, young Jewish women whose parents arrived in Israel over the past two decades, since the former Soviet Union collapsed, were particularly vulnerable to the attention of Arab men.

Dr Yonay said Russian women were less closed to the idea of relationships with Arab men because they “did not undergo the religious and Zionist education” to which more established Israeli Jews were subject.

Mr Hakak said the municipality had created a hotline that parents and friends of the Jewish women could use to inform on them.

“We can’t tell the girls what to do but we can send a psychologist to their home to offer them and their parents advice,” he said.

Motti Zaft, the deputy mayor, told the Ynet website that the municipality was also cracking down on city homeowners who illegally subdivide apartments to rent them cheaply to single Arab men looking for work in the Tel Aviv area. He estimated that several hundred Arab men had moved into the city as a result.

Petah Tikva’s hostility to Arab men mixing with local Jewish women is shared by other communities.

In Pisgat Zeev, a settlement of 40,000 Jews, some 35 Jewish men are reported to belong to a patrol known as “Fire for Judaism” that tries to stop interracial dating.

Unusually for a settlement, Pisgat Zeev has attracted a tiny but growing population of Arab families, both from East Jerusalem and from inside Israel. Because Pisgat Zeev sits within Jerusalem’s municipal borders, Arabs with Israeli residency rights can live there as long as Jewish settlers are willing to rent to them.

One member, who identified himself as Moshe to the Jerusalem Post newspaper, said: “Our goal is to be in contact with these girls and try to explain to them the dangers of what they’re getting themselves into. In the last 10 years, 60 girls from Pisgat Zeev have gone into [Palestinian] villages [in the West Bank]. And most of them aren’t heard from after that.”

He denied that violence or threats were used against Arab men.
Last year, the municipality of Kiryat Gat, a town of 50,000 Jews in southern Israel, launched a programme in schools to warn Jewish girls of the dangers of dating local Bedouin men. The girls were shown a video titled Sleeping with the Enemy, which describes mixed couples as an “unnatural phenomenon”.

Haim Shalom, head of the municipality’s welfare department, is filmed saying: “The girls, in their innocence, go with the exploitative Arab.”

In 2004, posters sprang up all over the northern town of Safed warning Jewish women that dating Arab men would lead to “beatings, hard drugs, prostitution and crime”.
Safed’s chief rabbi, Shmuel Eliyahu, told a local newspaper that the “seducing” of Jewish girls was “another form of war” by Arab men.

Both Kiryat Gat and Safed’s campaigns were supported by a religious organisation called Yad L’achim, which runs an anti-assimilation team publicly dedicated to “saving” Jewish women.

According to its website, the organisation receives more than 100 calls a month about Jewish women living with Arab men, both in Israel and the West Bank. It launches “military-like rescues [of the women] from hostile Arab villages” in co-ordination with the police and army.

“The Jewish soul is a precious, all-too-rare resource, and we are not prepared to give up on even a single one,” says the website.
eyl
Jedi Knight
Posts: 714
Joined: 2007-01-30 11:03am
Location: City of Gold and Iron

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by eyl »

Darth Wong wrote:How long are we going to continue knee-jerk defending this worsening race-state, as it totters toward the Bronze Age theocracy that was its original inspiration from Day One?
You are aware that Israel's founders were largely secular or atheist? The religious Jews largely opposed its creation.

As for the article, while most of the things it describes have occured, it tends toward alarmism. Some examples:

Mehadrin bus lines - these are the male/female segregated lines. Recently, there has been increasing public challenge of those lines even by some religious women (author Naomi Ragan, for example).

Haredi riots - yes, there were riots over the opening of the Karta parking lot on Saturday, but it's significant that this time Jerusalem's City Hall didn't back down on the issue.
Also, according to at least one analysis I heard, the issue had economic as well as religiou motivations. While the haredim get welfare, they stil tend to be poor, and they depend a great deal on donations from abroad. The primary time for soliciting those donations is now, during the holidays. With the parking lot being opened in the summer, that intensified the riots because they're a way of showing their benefactors that Jerusalem's haredim are fighting to keep the Sabbath.

The article makes the haredi battalion sound like a recent symptom of increasing religosity. In fact, it was established in 2002 (and existed before that as a company in another battalion) - its members are mostly haredi "misfits" and their community hasn't exactly received their enlistment with open arms. More significantly, AFAIK there have been no additional religious units formed since then.

Also, I haven't seen any hard data on the issue one way or another, but I believe I'd have heard if there was a sudden mass emigration of secular Israelis (internal migration is another issue).

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Interestingly enough, the Israeli government pays Jews to procreate. Apparently, that's how one cult leader with ... 30 or so wives and many many children managed to get by.
Assuming you're talking about child subsidies, that applies to all citizens, not just Jews.
wautd wrote:Enyone else sees public stoning becoming an acceptible way of punishment again? Christian fundies always point that OT-laws are only for Jews. Does the Torah mentions any stoning?
Given that Jewish law is based on Halacha rather than pure OT ("Written Law"), no (check up sometimese on the requirements to actually sentence someone to death under Halacha).
Samuel wrote:Wow- I just saw a similar article at spacebattles. Which is disturbing in an entirely different way. Anyone know if the National is a reputalbe source?

Don't know about the National one way or the other, but I've hard of these things before; OTOH, given that the author is Cook, take it with a large grain of salt.
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12461
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Edi »

So how does any of that nitpicking actually address the main point, which is that Israel is swiftly transforming from a racist shithole to a racist, theocratic shithole and things are getting worse instead of better?

All of your objections amount only to "B-b-but it's not really getting quite that bad, it's only this bad..." which is hardly the sound defense you seem to think it is.
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
Yona
Youngling
Posts: 95
Joined: 2009-09-07 08:43pm
Location: N E Wisconsin

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Yona »

Lonestar wrote:Sundown laws were largely in the Midwest and West, not "the South", Yona. Southern institutional rascism was more overt, in that they didn't kick every colored out and say "we don't have any race problems in this town!" The difference is such that if you ask someone from the Deep South about Sundown towns you'll get a blank look(they don't understand the terminology) but someone from Indiana, Wisconsin, or Iowa and they'll nod knowingly.

I recommend you go read Sundown Towns by James Loewen.
I suggest you look at Kentucky and Tennessee today. They still exist there.

I've lived in the upper Midwest, Illinois and Wisconsin, for 63 years, and I don't recall any "sundown" laws in any area I lived in. I don't recall my parents or Grandparents talking about them either. Not to say they might not have existed,... just not where we were at.

As to the 50's, I was around then, and while some things were more "open", i.e., prejudice, etc. It is thinly hidden today, and surfaces rather rapidly even in the Midwest and Northern states. It's not just against Blacks, it is against any person of color, and is done to them mostly by people who pride themselves on their "Religion". I guess that "love" only works towards certain people though.

Just because the South acted more openly in their ignorant behavior back then, does not excuse them, or mean that they don't still do it today. They do. They are a little less open about it because of the stigma attached to that type of behavior by society in general.

I can tell you of a certain Gamers Board where it runs rampant.
The "Stupid Gene" is alive and well ! It resides in many forms, mostly in the "new" crop of Republicans !
Axis Kast
Vympel's Bitch
Posts: 3893
Joined: 2003-03-02 10:45am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Contact:

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Axis Kast »

So how does any of that nitpicking actually address the main point, which is that Israel is swiftly transforming from a racist shithole to a racist, theocratic shithole and things are getting worse instead of better?
Actually, Mike had two main points, one of which was a completely incorrect reference to the circumstances in which the State of Israel was founded in 1947, and settled by Zionists since the late nineteenth century.
User avatar
Pablo Sanchez
Commissar
Posts: 6998
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:41pm
Location: The Wasteland

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Pablo Sanchez »

Yona wrote:I've lived in the upper Midwest, Illinois and Wisconsin, for 63 years, and I don't recall any "sundown" laws in any area I lived in. I don't recall my parents or Grandparents talking about them either. Not to say they might not have existed,... just not where we were at.
Here's a directory of sundown towns sorted by state. There are plenty of them to go around, especially in Illinois. The thing about Sundown Towns is that it was not always written into the laws of the town but was enforced on a community basis, by refusing to sell property or to rent to African Americans, or by ad hoc intimidation efforts. It is nowadays difficult to establish which towns had Sundown traditions, because for obvious reasons people are not inclined to talk about it or release documents attesting to that status.
Image
"I am gravely disappointed. Again you have made me unleash my dogs of war."
--The Lord Humungus
Yona
Youngling
Posts: 95
Joined: 2009-09-07 08:43pm
Location: N E Wisconsin

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Yona »

Pablo Sanchez wrote:
Yona wrote:I've lived in the upper Midwest, Illinois and Wisconsin, for 63 years, and I don't recall any "sundown" laws in any area I lived in. I don't recall my parents or Grandparents talking about them either. Not to say they might not have existed,... just not where we were at.
Here's a directory of sundown towns sorted by state. There are plenty of them to go around, especially in Illinois. The thing about Sundown Towns is that it was not always written into the laws of the town but was enforced on a community basis, by refusing to sell property or to rent to African Americans, or by ad hoc intimidation efforts. It is nowadays difficult to establish which towns had Sundown traditions, because for obvious reasons people are not inclined to talk about it or release documents attesting to that status.
Nice link, but none of the cities I lived in were on the list in either state. I wonder when those laws were last in force ?

In any case, it has little to do with the intolerance that extremists on either side are practicing.

As one man once told me, "there's more than one road to your destination". The idea that any one way is the only correct way for everyone is ludicrous.
The "Stupid Gene" is alive and well ! It resides in many forms, mostly in the "new" crop of Republicans !
Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Samuel »

In any case, it has little to do with the intolerance that extremists on either side are practicing.

As one man once told me, "there's more than one road to your destination". The idea that any one way is the only correct way for everyone is ludicrous.
?

What are you talking about?
User avatar
CJvR
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2926
Joined: 2002-07-11 06:36pm
Location: K.P.E.V. 1

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by CJvR »

Wonderful, just what the mid-east needs.
More fanatics.

Is it to late to hand the whole mess back to the Ottomans?
I thought Roman candles meant they were imported. - Kelly Bundy
12 yards long, two lanes wide it's 65 tons of American pride, Canyonero! - Simpsons
Support the KKK environmental program - keep the Arctic white!
Wing Commander MAD
Jedi Knight
Posts: 665
Joined: 2005-05-22 10:10pm
Location: Western Pennsylvania

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

CJvR wrote:Wonderful, just what the mid-east needs.
More fanatics.

Is it to late to hand the whole mess back to the Ottomans?
I think it might be. Here, though I'm sure Thanas or one of the other history guys, or someone more familiar with the Turkish politics and history could weigh in on it.

Does this really suprise anyone? It would seem that religious extremisms seems to be somewhat culturally contagius (ie extremism by their neighbors seems to have perhaps cuased them to be more extreme in response), regardless of what the religions involved are. Anyone know if there are (or have been) any similar cases like this elsewhere in the world, or is this rather an atypical situation?

Edit: Added second part.
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Darth Wong »

eyl wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:How long are we going to continue knee-jerk defending this worsening race-state, as it totters toward the Bronze Age theocracy that was its original inspiration from Day One?
You are aware that Israel's founders were largely secular or atheist? The religious Jews largely opposed its creation.
So? How would the self-declared religious beliefs of the founding militants that change the fact that the inspiration for modern Israel was obviously ancient Israel? Are you going to seriously propose that they just coincidentally chose that location, or for that matter, that this location made any conceivable sense whatsoever outside of a religious context? How about the fact that the state of Israel makes all kinds of special concessions to religious interests? I suppose that's a secular mindset too, just because the founders claimed to be secular? That's an ad-hominem fallacy in reverse: you are trying to deny the known characteristics of the state by appealing to the supposed characteristics of its founders.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Axis Kast
Vympel's Bitch
Posts: 3893
Joined: 2003-03-02 10:45am
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Contact:

Re: Israel => fundamentalist shithole

Post by Axis Kast »

How would the self-declared religious beliefs of the founding militants that change the fact that the inspiration for modern Israel was obviously ancient Israel?
By what logic can you make the argument that religious inspiration is necessarily interest in Bronze Age theocracy?
Are you going to seriously propose that they just coincidentally chose that location, or for that matter, that this location made any conceivable sense whatsoever outside of a religious context?
You've unknowingly shifted the goalposts - much to your own disadvantage, too. This discussion has suddenly become, "Were the 'secular' founding fathers of Israel really religious fanatics looking to build a theocracy?" rather than, "What does it mean that the population of Israel is steadily becoming more religious and conservative?"
How about the fact that the state of Israel makes all kinds of special concessions to religious interests?
Many of which relate to attempting to find some accommodation between religion and the secular, not overriding one in favor of the other at all costs.

I take it you've never read Tom Friedman's From Beirut to Jerusalem?
Post Reply