Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Lusankya
ChiCom
Posts: 4163
Joined: 2002-07-13 03:04am
Location: 人间天堂
Contact:

Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Lusankya »

Indigenous students struggling in remote schools

Only about 10 per cent of Indigenous year nine students in very remote schools meet national standards for reading and writing in English, according to the Northern Territory Education Department.

In contrast, the Federal Government says around the nation 90 per cent of students are meeting the minimum standards in literacy and numeracy.

The figures show only about 3 per cent of Indigenous students in year nine in very remote schools exceed national minimum standards for reading and writing in English.

The results of national literacy and numeracy tests released yesterday showed Territory students performed the worst in the nation.

Territory Opposition Leader Terry Mills says the NT needs to lift its game.

"Even though there has been some improvement shown, we must not pat ourselves too much on the back and recognise that we really do need to lift our expectations in closing the gap in benchmark achievements here in the Territory," he said.

The head of the Northern Territory Education Department, Gary Barnes, says the performance of students will improve if it can get more teachers to stay in the Territory longer.

He says the Education Department plans to give teachers more training, support and job satisfaction.

"We are going to run advertising campaigns across the country for the 70 per cent of staff that we need to bring into the Territory for the vacancies that are available, and we're going to differentiate on the basis of those who are prepared to come and commit to the Territory," he said.
Language barriers

The Northern Territory Government says the results are proof that teaching students in Indigenous languages in the first years of school is not working.

Education Minister Paul Henderson says it is difficult to compare remote school results with urban school results.

"To compare the performance of the territory as a whole - with 33 per cent of our students Indigenous and 80 per cent of those students in very remote schools - with the performance of urban Sydney is somewhat anomalous," he said.

"I'm very confident that when we look at the performance of our urban schools in the Northern Territory they will compare favourably with urban schools around the rest of Australia."

The Northern Territory Government has not yet given a breakdown of how Indigenous and non-Indigenous students performed in the tests.

But it has released the results for Indigenous students from bilingual and non-bilingual schools in very remote areas.

They show most are falling below the national benchmarks.

In year nine writing more than 90 per cent of Indigenous students in very remote schools are below the minimum standard.

The Government says one reason for the poor results is the bilingual system, under which students learn in their Indigenous language in the first years of school.

English is gradually phased in and treated as a second language.

The Government is moving to phase out the system but is facing vocal resistance.

"I want to move the debate on; that's what I've been saying for the last few weeks," Mr Henderson said.

"Let's not continue to fight the battles over 'big B' bilingual education and let's work on improving those outcomes for all of our Indigenous students in remote and very remote schools and also in our urban schools.

"It's about getting these kids to the benchmark."

He says one of the keys to improving results is lifting attendance and another is attracting committed teachers to the territory and reducing the high turnover rate.
Obviously, there are difficulties with getting resources and teachers out to these remote communities, but with 90% of students not attaining the standards, it's also obvious that there is a systemic failure here. The question is, what can be done to fix it. Most people don't actually want to go and teach in remote NT communities, and the language barrier will always be a problem unless these communities adopt English, because no aboriginal language has a high enough status to be taught seriously anywhere outside of the aboriginal communities.
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong
Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
weemadando
SMAKIBBFB
Posts: 19195
Joined: 2002-07-28 12:30pm
Contact:

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by weemadando »

This remains possibly my favourite Australian political cartoon of the year:

Image
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

We've had very good success in the Pacific Northwest with introducing Coast Salishan tongues (which are heavily interintelligible) into the curricula in reservation schools, but the Salish are extremely populous in the Pacific Northwest, are in compact groups, there is that interintelligibility of many of the variations of the Salishan tongues, and the English in this region is influenced by them through words adopted into our dialect of English through the Chinook Jargon. All in all, a situation more analogous to the Maori in New Zealand than the Aborigines in Australia. The main thing is that every single one of the Salishan tongues has a romanization. Do any of the aborigine tongues have a romanization so that you can read and write in it? If so, the period of instruction in their native tongues would be genuinely useful since you'd teach them how to read and write in it, and then teach them how to read and write in a different language later. If the initial instruction doesn't include education in reading and writing of a roman-script based written version of their native tongue, it is, however, completely useless and should be replaced by total English immersion, or such a romanization needs to be developed for each of the Aborigine tongues in use, and implemented in the curricula.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Lusankya
ChiCom
Posts: 4163
Joined: 2002-07-13 03:04am
Location: 人间天堂
Contact:

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Lusankya »

Yeah, they have romanisations that are for the most part standardised. Multilingualism is also common. The biggest problems are:
1. that most of the native speakers of these languages are illiterate, and there are very few teachers willing to learn a new language just so they can live in the middle of one of the most inhospitable places in the world.
2. Nobody ever goes into the desert and in fact, access is often restricted into those areas to the extent that even government officials need to get a "visa", and as such, it's very easy to ignore.
3. Almost nobody actually cares that much.

Because of the way aboriginal family structure works, you tend to either get aborigines who stay with the family/tribe and not do very much or you get ones who basically distance themselves from their entire family, because anyone who's successful is expected to look after anyone in their family who needs help. And in most aboriginal cultures, your family includes people like your cousin's aunt's husband's niece. It would be a fantastic safety net for them if there was a certain background level of affluence amongst aborigines, but given that the vast majority are poor, all it really does is punish success, because you either have to be estranged from your family or maintain a low standard of living so that you can help all of the relatives who come to you for help.
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong
Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
User avatar
Count Chocula
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1821
Joined: 2008-08-19 01:34pm
Location: You've asked me for my sacrifice, and I am winter born

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Count Chocula »

Maybe I'm the dense Anglo here, but what's the point of teaching or measuring English literacy in the Northern Territory? Please note that I'm not impugning the intelligence of Australia's aborigines (our North American abos were/are plenty smart), just questioning the actual relevance of the results. Even today, here in the US, most people stay close to where they were born.

The 10% literacy rate implies, to me anyway, that 1 in 10 of the Northern Territory natives want to leave and experience the larger world, and perceive English literacy as one way to do that, while the other 90% are content to remain within their separate community. I don't see 90+% English literacy among people who will live and die within 20 miles of their birth place (with a distinct language and culture) as a desirable goal, any more than I would expect more than 10% of Mexicans in Mexico to learn English. The utilitarian approach argues against this measure as a valid evaluation of the education in the Northern Territories.

EDIT: looks like Lusankya hit a couple of my key points already.
Image
The only people who were safe were the legion; after one of their AT-ATs got painted dayglo pink with scarlet go faster stripes, they identified the perpetrators and exacted revenge. - Eleventh Century Remnant

Lord Monckton is my heeerrooo

"Yeah, well, fuck them. I never said I liked the Moros." - Shroom Man 777
User avatar
Stark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 36169
Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Stark »

A cynical man might look at other stats, like alcoholism, domestic violence, suicide, etc and that it's all subsidised by the goverment and figure it's a pretty serious problem. At least in Queensland regional native settlements are essentially hellholes. Corrupt hellholes. Fueled by welfare.
User avatar
Count Chocula
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1821
Joined: 2008-08-19 01:34pm
Location: You've asked me for my sacrifice, and I am winter born

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Count Chocula »

^ Oh shit STRAK, when did you have time to tour the USA's Western reservations? The points you cite are endemic at EVERY reservation in the West (that doesn't have casinos), plus truly shitty VA healthcare -15 quality. My experiences in New Mexico were especially shitty, and the Alamagordo area reservations made Weirton West Virginia look like paradise. Just stopping for gas was an exercise in despair.
Image
The only people who were safe were the legion; after one of their AT-ATs got painted dayglo pink with scarlet go faster stripes, they identified the perpetrators and exacted revenge. - Eleventh Century Remnant

Lord Monckton is my heeerrooo

"Yeah, well, fuck them. I never said I liked the Moros." - Shroom Man 777
User avatar
Lusankya
ChiCom
Posts: 4163
Joined: 2002-07-13 03:04am
Location: 人间天堂
Contact:

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Lusankya »

English literacy has numerous advantages apart from "being able to leave the local community". For example: Australian aborigines have a about a 30% chance of reaching the age of 65 - half the chance of someone born in Bangladesh. A part of this is because aborigines who are not proficient in English cannot get adequate medical help from English-trained doctors. It's also not giving the 90% who are illiterate in English an adequate opportunity for higher education - which is conducted in English. Nor are aborigines not proficient in English capable of referring their problems to higher levels of the police department if necessary, since at a state level the police work in English.

The comparison with Mexicans is a false analogy, because Mexicans have access to facilities such as hospitals, universities and police departments where everything is conducted in Spanish. Aborigines have no such access to such facilities, and as such a failure to teach them English is adversely affecting not only their freedom of movement, but also their educational opportunities, their safety and their health.
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong
Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
User avatar
Lusankya
ChiCom
Posts: 4163
Joined: 2002-07-13 03:04am
Location: 人间天堂
Contact:

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Lusankya »

Count Chocula wrote:^ Oh shit STRAK, when did you have time to tour the USA's Western reservations? The points you cite are endemic at EVERY reservation in the West (that doesn't have casinos), plus truly shitty VA healthcare -15 quality. My experiences in New Mexico were especially shitty, and the Alamagordo area reservations made Weirton West Virginia look like paradise. Just stopping for gas was an exercise in despair.
You can't shop for gas at many remote aboriginal communities, because petrol sniffing is so prevalent that petrol has been banned.
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong
Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
User avatar
The Duchess of Zeon
Gözde
Posts: 14566
Joined: 2002-09-18 01:06am
Location: Exiled in the Pale of Settlement.

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Count Chocula wrote:^ Oh shit STRAK, when did you have time to tour the USA's Western reservations? The points you cite are endemic at EVERY reservation in the West (that doesn't have casinos), plus truly shitty VA healthcare -15 quality. My experiences in New Mexico were especially shitty, and the Alamagordo area reservations made Weirton West Virginia look like paradise. Just stopping for gas was an exercise in despair.
Uh, those conditions are not present in Coast Salish peoples to speak of, though I grant most of them have traditional fishing rights which have been preserved and allow them a livelihood even without casinos.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. -- Wikipedia's No Original Research policy page.

In 1966 the Soviets find something on the dark side of the Moon. In 2104 they come back. -- Red Banner / White Star, a nBSG continuation story. Updated to Chapter 4.0 -- 14 January 2013.
User avatar
Count Chocula
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1821
Joined: 2008-08-19 01:34pm
Location: You've asked me for my sacrifice, and I am winter born

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Count Chocula »

WOW. Lus, I concede. I had no idea that the Northern Territories had those types of problems or life expectancies.

What would you suggest as a palliative? Would forced integration even work, considering how remote these areas are? Would teaching doctors in the local language, or having interpreters with them (the 10%), help increase the life expectancy? It almost seems like the NT aborigines have chosen to just, for the most part, keep living the way they always have and pretend the English never set foot on the continent.
Image
The only people who were safe were the legion; after one of their AT-ATs got painted dayglo pink with scarlet go faster stripes, they identified the perpetrators and exacted revenge. - Eleventh Century Remnant

Lord Monckton is my heeerrooo

"Yeah, well, fuck them. I never said I liked the Moros." - Shroom Man 777
User avatar
thejester
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1811
Joined: 2005-06-10 07:16pm
Location: Richard Nixon's Secret Tapes Club Band

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by thejester »

Count Chocula wrote:Maybe I'm the dense Anglo here, but what's the point of teaching or measuring English literacy in the Northern Territory? Please note that I'm not impugning the intelligence of Australia's aborigines (our North American abos were/are plenty smart), just questioning the actual relevance of the results. Even today, here in the US, most people stay close to where they were born.

The 10% literacy rate implies, to me anyway, that 1 in 10 of the Northern Territory natives want to leave and experience the larger world, and perceive English literacy as one way to do that, while the other 90% are content to remain within their separate community. I don't see 90+% English literacy among people who will live and die within 20 miles of their birth place (with a distinct language and culture) as a desirable goal, any more than I would expect more than 10% of Mexicans in Mexico to learn English. The utilitarian approach argues against this measure as a valid evaluation of the education in the Northern Territories.

EDIT: looks like Lusankya hit a couple of my key points already.
I think Lus covered it, but for an example - Liam Jurrah got drafted last year. He had to get assistance in learning English because, while he understood the coach/teammates, he couldn't reply to them in English - it was his third or fourth language.

There's your garden variety illiteracy and then there's that. As Lus said, that goes beyond not being able to leave home - if you can't even do basic stuff like tell the doctor what's wrong with you or call the cops, it can become immediately life-threatning. And as Stark said, realistically you're not going to be able to solve the problems affecting communities like these without raising literacy levels.
Image
I love the smell of September in the morning. Once we got off at Richmond, walked up to the 'G, and there was no game on. Not one footballer in sight. But that cut grass smell, spring rain...it smelt like victory.

Dynamic. When [Kuznetsov] decided he was going to make a difference, he did it...Like Ovechkin...then you find out - he's with Washington too? You're kidding.
- Ron Wilson
User avatar
Lusankya
ChiCom
Posts: 4163
Joined: 2002-07-13 03:04am
Location: 人间天堂
Contact:

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Lusankya »

Count Chocula wrote:What would you suggest as a palliative? Would forced integration even work, considering how remote these areas are?
Already tried that, and this is how it ended up:


Would teaching doctors in the local language, or having interpreters with them (the 10%), help increase the life expectancy?
Possibly, but you still run into the problem of finding doctors willing to go out there, and the interpreters need to be trained in medical terminology, otherwise they won't be able to express themselves. And aboriginal languages are in many ways less specific than English. Some, for example, don't differentiate between a finger and a hand, so giving medical advice over the radio to someone who's hurt one of those body parts is difficult, because depending on whether it's the finger or hand that's been hurt, the doctor will want to give different advice.
It almost seems like the NT aborigines have chosen to just, for the most part, keep living the way they always have and pretend the English never set foot on the continent.
Actually, it's probably worse than before. They never developed any cultural methods of dealing with alcohol responsibly, nor do they have much natural biological resistance to it, so alcohol and drug abuse is a huge problem. In many areas, the traditional culture has been largely lost, but there's been no corresponding integration into white Australian culture. Many countries have dealt with huge upheavals which have resulted in a "lost generation", but really, the situation with these communities is more like lost centuries and won't be overcome so easily. It wasn't even necessarily a choice made by the aboriginal people. They weren't even counted as citizens in the census until 1967 and anti-discrimination legislation only really started in the 1970s, so before then the choice was largely made for them.

It's not a problem that's easily solved. Here's a link to the Australian Human Rights Commision's overview of the stuation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders. It's by no means exhaustive, but it does give you an indication of the scope of the problem. It's not just one problem that needs to be solved. Often it's many problems that exacerbate each other.
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong
Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
User avatar
Lusankya
ChiCom
Posts: 4163
Joined: 2002-07-13 03:04am
Location: 人间天堂
Contact:

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Lusankya »

Was too late to Edit: Here's a PDF from the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, showing that aboriginal Australians are twice as likely engage in risky alcohol consumption than the general population, are about 50% more likely to have taken illicit drugs and are more than twice as likely to smoke daily than the general population. 16% of the aboriginal/torres strait islander popuation drinks 5 or more standard drinks in one day on at least a weekly basis (compared to 7% for non-indigenous Australians).
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong
Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
JointStrikeFighter
Worthless Trolling Palm-Fucker
Posts: 1979
Joined: 2004-06-12 03:09am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by JointStrikeFighter »

Compared to the American situation also, aborigine numbers and population densities are so low anyway that there is almost zero economy of scale when it comes to providing services. Hell the numbers of Mexican immigrants to America probably exceed the number of Australians period, let alone aborigines
User avatar
Xon
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6206
Joined: 2002-07-16 06:12am
Location: Western Australia

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Xon »

One problem with providing translators for Australian aborigines, is they have many dozens of dialects. That makes training translators harder.
"Okay, I'll have the truth with a side order of clarity." ~ Dr. Daniel Jackson.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." ~ Stephen Colbert
"One Drive, One Partition, the One True Path" ~ ars technica forums - warrens - on hhd partitioning schemes.
JointStrikeFighter
Worthless Trolling Palm-Fucker
Posts: 1979
Joined: 2004-06-12 03:09am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by JointStrikeFighter »

Xon wrote:One problem with providing translators for Australian aborigines, is they have many dozens of dialects. That makes training translators harder.
And any one dialect may only have a few hundred speakers.
User avatar
Lusankya
ChiCom
Posts: 4163
Joined: 2002-07-13 03:04am
Location: 人间天堂
Contact:

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Lusankya »

If you got the translators from aborigines themselves, it wouldn't be too bad. In central Australia, there are only a few language families, and the dialects are reasonably mutually intelligible, and it's not uncommon for aborigines to be fluent in several dialects.

There's one place in North-East Arnhem Land where the community speaks several languages. You speak your mother's language as you're growing up, and then you switch to your father's language. And you're not allowed to marry someone who speaks the same language as you. It's really weirdly complicated.

The biggest problem with training interpreters is that nobody who doesn't already live there particularly wants to learn the languages, because there's no money in it. I mean, I could learn a Pitjanjatjara dialect and go live in the NT somewhere doing remote social work in 40+ degree heat with no air conditioning or internet, or I could learn Portugese and go and work in Brazil and live in a friendly country with fantastic weather. Or I could study Chinese and get an advantage doing business with our largest trading partner. Oh, no, which should I choose?
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong
Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28791
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Broomstick »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The main thing is that every single one of the Salishan tongues has a romanization. Do any of the aborigine tongues have a romanization so that you can read and write in it? If so, the period of instruction in their native tongues would be genuinely useful since you'd teach them how to read and write in it, and then teach them how to read and write in a different language later. If the initial instruction doesn't include education in reading and writing of a roman-script based written version of their native tongue, it is, however, completely useless and should be replaced by total English immersion, or such a romanization needs to be developed for each of the Aborigine tongues in use, and implemented in the curricula.
While I can see the value of a Roman script, the Cherokee nation have done quite nicely with their non-Roman syllabary as seen in these examples from Talequah, Oklahoma:
ImageImage

Couple things here:

1) In this day and age a language needs a writing system. While Roman characters have some advantages in regards to computer use and a few other applications, the exact form doesn't matter as much as the fact the written form exists. Some languages probably are better suited to syllabaries than pure alphabets, and at this point the Chinese ideograms are so entrenched they aren't going away for a long, long time. Roman characters alone don't seem to cut it for many languages, hence all the accents and modifiers seen in various tongues. A writing system not only allows information to be recorded for posterity, it's also one of the features that makes people take the language seriously. Ideally, one might ask the "Australian Aborigines" what they would prefer, except that they are such a diverse group there would probably be multiple answers. That may or may not be a problem. Cherokee is the only language I'm aware of whose writing system was largely generated by just one person, I suspect how this happens is often the result of "committee" or imposition from outside. Regardless, languages need writing these days.

2) People need to be literate. In one sense, it doesn't matter which language is there first (although some languages have advantages of status and power, there is no denying that) as long as people can read and write. The first language learned is the biggest hurdle in this regard. Even if members of an indigenous tribe don't read/write/speak English if they at least read/write/speak their own language information can still be distributed in written form, appointments written down, and so forth. It is probably best if people learn two languages, but it is important they become literate in at least one. This allows for basic participation in civic life, even if not in the dominant language. We see this in large cities such as Chicago which publish and disseminate information on voting, social services, laws, and other such things in dozens of languages. In Chicago one technique hospitals use for determining what sort of language translation is needed (which, thanks to major travel hubs like O'Hare, can result in patients from literally anywhere in the world arriving at the ER) is to present a patient with a chart that allows them to choose the written form of their language, which enables hospital staff to attempt to locate an appropriate translator with much less guessing required. To some extent, this works even for marginally literate people who can at least recognize their own writing system even if they can't truly read it.

3) There must be an absence of forces killing the native tongue. Most of the overt examples - outlawing of language, beating of children who speak the forbidden language in school, etc. - have gone away in this day and age, but that doesn't mean there aren't such forces still at work. The trend is for the children to gradually move away from the tribal language (though some such language, such as Cherokee and Navajo, have actually gained speakers during the 20th Century) but attempts to stamp out a language generally seem to result in poor overall language development. There is absolutely nothing wrong in speaking one language at home and another in the outside world as polyglots have proven for centuries and one can be equally adept at two languages. This is actually a normal state of affairs for most of the world and much of history. Forbidding a language, though results in resent, anger, distrust, and a resistance to education overall that is toxic.

4) Some respect for the native culture helps. Authorities don't have to love it, but if you characterize all of group X as dirty, unwashed, disease-ridden, drunken, immoral trash barely above the level of rats (which has happened on several continents in regards to native tribes) this will communicate to the defeated people clustered against their will in limited land areas. Authorities have to keep their promises/treaties/whatever. This includes apologizing for past transgressions, acknowledging mistakes, and perhaps in some cases reparations (which are not always practical). It certainly means respecting the current boundaries of native lands. The natives have to be allowed to keep as many of their traditions as practical (we can't, for obvious reasons, permit systematic head hunting or war raids on non-tribal neighbors) NOT as tourist attractions but as genuine traditions. This requires giving the natives the authority to ban outsiders from certain ceremonies (some of the American south west Pueblos close to outsiders during certain holidays) or permitting customs that may well upset the dominant culture (such as the Plains Sun Dance - I recall the uproar caused when one of my classmates in college sought a leave of absence for his commitment to performing the dance, which if I recall involved at least four years of participation and left significant scars though perhaps these days with piercing and scarification being all the rage it wouldn't cause such a fuss).

5) On the flip side, those who wish to assimilate should be permitted to do so. One reason you get corrupt tribal leaders is either the perception or the reality that the tribals have no other choice. If people are free to go it makes it much harder for the chief to abuse them. Mind you, this is not forced assimilation, this is keeping the door open.

What the above does is give the tribals some cultural security, that they aren't going to be systematically exterminated (not an unreasonable fear, given history). This makes resistance far less entrenched and improves open-mindedness. This works both ways. Tribal members, secure that they will be allowed to use their native tongue and keep their customs become less hostile to outsiders. Children who might otherwise feel overly constrained are more free to choose which culture they wish to live in, or even both by going out into the dominant culture to work and earn money but able to return to the tribal to either visit, retire, or attempt to start something worthwhile there. Or commute - there's a history of Iroquois working steel on New York City high rises while maintaining strong ties with their tribal areas, which also brought needed cash to their regions.

And finally - realize that living cultures are not static. This has to be realized by ALL parties. Tribal/native peoples are NOT museum specimens. These things range from a change in clothing habits, assimilation of new words, dying out of some customs, and adoption of new ones.

I am most familiar with the situation in North America, of course, as I live here. Things were pretty shitty for the natives for quite a long while, are still pretty horrible for a significant number of them. While some tribes are starting to enjoy economic benefits the situation is far from ideal. There is a lot of friction between tribes and their neighbors. Frequently, the only resolution to conflict is a compromise that leaves everyone equally unhappy.

Question my mind - what really is the situation in Australia? What I typically hear as characterizations of the aborigines reminds me of how people in the 19th Century referred to the American tribes. It appears that their standard of living is abysmal, that alcohol and drug abuse are rampant (also a serious problem in North America), and, from this thread, aborigines are even less educated on average than the poorest US tribes. Where can I find unbiased and accurate information on this?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28791
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Broomstick »

Stark wrote:A cynical man might look at other stats, like alcoholism, domestic violence, suicide, etc and that it's all subsidised by the goverment and figure it's a pretty serious problem. At least in Queensland regional native settlements are essentially hellholes. Corrupt hellholes. Fueled by welfare.
We certainly have that phenomena, too - but it's not universal. US native groups range from situations such as you describe - corrupt hellholes fueled by welfare - to tribes that enjoy an adequate lifestyle with education and healthcare available to all and some notably successful tribe members that didn't have to completely abandon their culture to achieve that success. Does Australia have any tribal success stories or are they all cesspits?
Count Chocula wrote:What would you suggest as a palliative? Would forced integration even work, considering how remote these areas are?
Forced assimilation was tried in North America with dismal outcomes. Australia has its stolen generation. Forced assimilation seemed like a good idea but it's not. It's been tried multiple times and not once could it be considered a success.
Lusankya wrote:
Count Chocula wrote:Would teaching doctors in the local language, or having interpreters with them (the 10%), help increase the life expectancy?
Possibly, but you still run into the problem of finding doctors willing to go out there, and the interpreters need to be trained in medical terminology, otherwise they won't be able to express themselves. And aboriginal languages are in many ways less specific than English. Some, for example, don't differentiate between a finger and a hand, so giving medical advice over the radio to someone who's hurt one of those body parts is difficult, because depending on whether it's the finger or hand that's been hurt, the doctor will want to give different advice.
In the US, the Federal govenment subsidizes (well, it's a bit complicated, but call it that) medical education for doctors in exchange for them devoting a number of years of service to "underserved locations", such as remote rural areas or reservations. I have a friend who went that route and indeed wound up in the middle of nowhere, one of only two doctors for about 500 km in any direction from their clinic Does Australia have any sort of program of that nature? (One would think so, given that they have areas even less densely inhabited that the western US).

There would still be the language barrier, but one just has to deal with that. My friend picked up some Spanish during her tour of duty, and apparently quite a bit can be accomplished by gestures when face-to-face. Of course, her mother being an English-as-Second-Language teacher might have given her some extra tools to work with.
It almost seems like the NT aborigines have chosen to just, for the most part, keep living the way they always have and pretend the English never set foot on the continent.
Actually, it's probably worse than before. They never developed any cultural methods of dealing with alcohol responsibly, nor do they have much natural biological resistance to it, so alcohol and drug abuse is a huge problem.
Keep in mind that alcohol and other drugs - including sniffed petrol - have the effect of numbing pain. Including mental distress. While all Native Americans have biological vulnerability to alcoholism, those most likely to succomb to it are those in the worst circumstances. Relatively affluent natives with a steady job, secure social network, and hope for a better future are still vulnerable but far less likely to fall into alcoholism or drug abuse, and when they do, are far more likely to become sober again at some point.

So... if you have an aborigine who is dirt poor, has no income, has no subsistence skills to allow them to live off their land as their ancestors did (I assume those have been gradually lost over time, as happened in North America), has literally had children stolen away from the family tearing apart the social fabric, and has no hope of things getting better... is is any wonder they drink? Some of this is biological vulnerability. Some of it is self medicating for depression or even slow suicide.
JointStrikeFighter wrote:Compared to the American situation also, aborigine numbers and population densities are so low anyway that there is almost zero economy of scale when it comes to providing services. Hell the numbers of Mexican immigrants to America probably exceed the number of Australians period, let alone aborigines
The lack of population density I think is a major factor here. The north American tribes that have done best are typically those that had a higher density and a more complex social organization. For example, the Iroquois Nations (also known as the Six Nations) had extensive alliances and trade routes and a type of democracy in place before the Europeans arrived. The Cherokee likewise were actually an alliance among multiple groups (at one point known as the Five Civilized Tribes), fairly dense in population, and consciously adopted a great deal of European ideas which they adapted to their own use (including written language) and even after the Trail of Tears forced them from the South East US to Oklahoma they built entire towns, court houses, a police force, and educational system - that can only be done with a certain level of population, which is dense enough to require agriculture (the Cherokee were already planters, and they rapidly adopted things from the Europeans to boost their production). No Australian group ever reached that density level, none ever devloped agriculture. This put them at an even greater disadvantage than most North American tribes. The Pacific Northwest - where Marina's examples come from - also had relatively high population densities and highly organized societies (they were an exception to the agriculture rule, being in one of the very few places on Earth productive enough to support settled hunter-gatherers. Some parts of Japan also, apparently, are equally productive though they have long been taken over by agriculturalists)
JointStrikeFighter wrote:
Xon wrote:One problem with providing translators for Australian aborigines, is they have many dozens of dialects. That makes training translators harder.
And any one dialect may only have a few hundred speakers.
Again - the native tribes that do best are those that number at least in several thousand, preferably much larger numbers. The Cherokee are 300,000 and speak only three dialects, all of which are to some degree mutually intelligble, as an example. The Navaho are 290,000. Iroquois about 130,000. The Hopi at 7,000 are one of the smaller surviving groups, but the lived in actual small cities in desert areas the European invaders found less than desirable, especially when taking them would necessite besieging small towns/cities built into cliffsides in extremely defendable positions. The Zuni are another pueblo people, 7,000 of which live in a single town, the Pueblo of Zuni, New Mexico with a population density of 720 people per square mile which is definitely urban density and not something the European invaders where likely to steamroll over. The Zuni number over 12,000 and also are agriculturalists. The Coast Salish Marina referred to are, again, a group of related tribes, about 23 (there is some dispute between splitters and groupers in classification), with a total population of around 18,000-20,000. While some of the 20+ languages of the group are surviving others are down to fewer than a half dozen speakers and are essentially extinct, or will be shortly.

The Potawatomi, one of the "Three Fires" group (the other two were the Ottawa and the Ojibwe) from the Great Lakes region, did not fare quite so well. They were never heavy agriculturalists, they did not have dense settlements. They still exist (Potawatomi Bingo and Casinos is doing quite a brisk business) but they've lost most of their language and customs. Only about 80 people alive today speak Potawatomi as their first language, and the language mostly survives in place and river names such as "Chicago", most of which were modified as via French and English speakers. There are about 28,000 people claiming Potawatomi membership scattered through North America in both the US and Canada in 12 major and more minor communities. The tribes are not dying out, but their language is and many of their customs and traditions are already gone. They are becoming an ethnic group on par with, say, Bulgarian-Americans.

Clearly, a tribe needs thousands, preferably tens of thousands, of members to remain a viable cultural group and even then there is no guarantee. Please note that North American survivors are typically members of alliances - "Six Nations", "Three Fires", "Five Civilized Tribes", etc. If most pre-European contact Australian Aborigine groups numbered under a thousand or two and had very low population densities, little to no experience with extensive alliances, and no agriculture it is not surprising they either didn't survive or their cultures were shattered.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
Mr Flibble
Psychic Penguin
Posts: 845
Joined: 2002-12-11 01:49am
Location: Wentworth, Australia

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Mr Flibble »

Broomstick wrote: In the US, the Federal govenment subsidizes (well, it's a bit complicated, but call it that) medical education for doctors in exchange for them devoting a number of years of service to "underserved locations", such as remote rural areas or reservations. I have a friend who went that route and indeed wound up in the middle of nowhere, one of only two doctors for about 500 km in any direction from their clinic Does Australia have any sort of program of that nature? (One would think so, given that they have areas even less densely inhabited that the western US).
We have programs like that for doctors. The problem is it is hard enough to get doctors to the rural centres that we have to use this method to get them there, getting doctors willing to work in the tribal areas is near impossible.
User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28791
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Broomstick »

OK, was I unclear? In the US both rural and tribal centers are included in the program, and the docs don't really get to pick and choose. If you're assigned an area with a reservation guess what, you're working with them as well as the mainstream rural.

Why wouldn't the Australian government do the same? Why two separate programs?
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
User avatar
loomer
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4260
Joined: 2005-11-20 07:57am

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by loomer »

Mr Flibble wrote:
Broomstick wrote: In the US, the Federal govenment subsidizes (well, it's a bit complicated, but call it that) medical education for doctors in exchange for them devoting a number of years of service to "underserved locations", such as remote rural areas or reservations. I have a friend who went that route and indeed wound up in the middle of nowhere, one of only two doctors for about 500 km in any direction from their clinic Does Australia have any sort of program of that nature? (One would think so, given that they have areas even less densely inhabited that the western US).
We have programs like that for doctors. The problem is it is hard enough to get doctors to the rural centres that we have to use this method to get them there, getting doctors willing to work in the tribal areas is near impossible.
There is one possibility that the government hasn't explored in this arena. We have a fairly well sized army for a nation of our size, including doctors and nurses. We could shuffle them out to the shitholes in the middle of the nowhere, pay them a little extra, and force them to work there or face the penalties for desertion. It doesn't solve the problem completely, but it'd help.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
User avatar
Lusankya
ChiCom
Posts: 4163
Joined: 2002-07-13 03:04am
Location: 人间天堂
Contact:

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Lusankya »

Broomstick wrote:OK, was I unclear? In the US both rural and tribal centers are included in the program, and the docs don't really get to pick and choose. If you're assigned an area with a reservation guess what, you're working with them as well as the mainstream rural.

Why wouldn't the Australian government do the same? Why two separate programs?
There is a chance that the possibility of going to some tribal centre would be enough of a disincentive to decrease the already low numbers of people choosing the program. In Australia, your uni fees are just levied as an extra tax once you make x amount of dollars, so the government can't use debt as leverage like they can in the US. And as Mr Flibble said, we're not even getting enough people to fill major regional centres, which would get priority due to having enough people. I'm not sure how well they manage to get doctors to stay for the long term either. I know that in the town that I grew up in, about 90% of the doctors all moved out at the same time because their kids reached high school age and the local attitude towards education was shit.

Also, when Australians talk remote, we usually think of places that are served by the Royal Flying Doctors Service. Most of these places don't have enough population to support a doctor, because even with chronic disease issues amongst much of the population, the doctor would still find themselves with nothing to do.

That actually leads into your point about them needing the ability to assimilate if they want to. Even without any racial prejudice preventing them from assimilating, they have almost no way of entering white society because the closest white township is literally hundreds of kilometres away. Moving is expensive
loomer wrote:There is one possibility that the government hasn't explored in this arena. We have a fairly well sized army for a nation of our size, including doctors and nurses. We could shuffle them out to the shitholes in the middle of the nowhere, pay them a little extra, and force them to work there or face the penalties for desertion. It doesn't solve the problem completely, but it'd help.
They did send the army in, remember? Just before the last election. They should have turned it into a long term strategy rather than the farce it was, though.
"I would say that the above post is off-topic, except that I'm not sure what the topic of this thread is, and I don't think anybody else is sure either."
- Darth Wong
Free Durian - Last updated 27 Dec
"Why does it look like you are in China or something?" - havokeff
User avatar
Mr Flibble
Psychic Penguin
Posts: 845
Joined: 2002-12-11 01:49am
Location: Wentworth, Australia

Re: Aborignial literacy in NT improved: still sucks

Post by Mr Flibble »

Broomstick wrote:OK, was I unclear? In the US both rural and tribal centers are included in the program, and the docs don't really get to pick and choose. If you're assigned an area with a reservation guess what, you're working with them as well as the mainstream rural.

Why wouldn't the Australian government do the same? Why two separate programs?
As Lusankya says we can't get doctors to stay in rural centres even places with populations around 10000, these places are the priority due to the number of people which badly need services. Our university debts really can't be used as much leverage, as only those he get full fee places will have a large debt, which means mostly either international students (who usually return home) or students who couldn't quite meet the normal entry requirements (i.e. people less likely to be good doctors). Of those two the Australian fee paying students still get the government debt, which means even though it will be large, it s just taken as extra tax and isn't really a burden. This makes it very hard to use as leverage.

There is a severe doctor shortage in Australia at the moment, it is even somewhat hard to keep doctors in Adelaide (they prefer the more glamorous eastern states cities) and Adelaide is a city of 1 million. To combat the shortage Australian medical schools have been increasing their numbers of students, which has annoyed many doctors, as they believe there won't be enough places for these students when they graduate and it will drive down doctors wages.
Post Reply