Lost Decade: 1/3 of young people under 35 live with parents

[Knife]

Question to Americans, what about other large scale job programs such as the Peace Corps, AmeriCorps etc.? These programs probably don't provide a wage, but are a very nice way to add to the Resume and can provide job opportunities later on.

Yeah, let's just ignore the possibility of being sent to a war zone and shot, being left maimed for life or killed. I'm so glad your experience in the military was beneficial, but the military is not a social welfare program, it's military. Not everyone wants to risk getting shot to further their career goals.

You do realize that most people in the military never get shot at, or see the field in any form past training?

Matt specifically mentioned these options too, people have just focused on the military part.

[AniThyng]

So why is living with strangers inherently better than living with family? Would you have similar objections to, say, a young adult living with an aunt and uncle? (an arrangement that almost occurred with my family when one of my nephews expressed some interest in going to school in the Chicago area). With cousins? A sibling? Or must people live with strangers or alone to be actually adult in your eye?

Come on? Seriously? We're asking these questions as if the answer isn't obvious? Equal footing? Lets face it, being someones kid gives you great leverage in the relationship. Where your parent would/should put up with a lot more negative behavior that a roommate ever would. A parent would/could forgive late payments for rent a lot easier than just a roommate. A parent will be less lenient (or should) on all this bullshit 'share resources' talk that's rampant in the thread.

Living with roommates creates, at least in the beginning, an equal relationship between all parties instead of a seriously slanted biased relationship that already exists between a child and a set of parents.

This is actually I believe a valid point that underscores the cultural gap here, since traditionally the relationship between parents and adult children (or for that matter, family and extended family - sending grandparents to retirement homes is still something of a cultural no-no, and the 3 generations in one household concept is still common enough) wouldn't be described with the worst case scenario as the default.

Of course no one on the Asian side of the fence would argue that being in a situation where Mom picks up after you and where you don't contribute in some way to the household is desirable...

[Broomstick]

Question to Americans, what about other large scale job programs such as the Peace Corps, AmeriCorps etc.? These programs probably don't provide a wage, but are a very nice way to add to the Resume and can provide job opportunities later on.

Actually, I believe the Peace Corps does provide pay. Not very much, but how the hell do you think people pay for food and housing while on assignment? It's subsistence level, though, you won't build a nest egg doing it. Don't know about AmeriCorps, but I suspect there's some pay, too.

Yeah, let's just ignore the possibility of being sent to a war zone and shot, being left maimed for life or killed. I'm so glad your experience in the military was beneficial, but the military is not a social welfare program, it's military. Not everyone wants to risk getting shot to further their career goals.

You do realize that most people in the military never get shot at, or see the field in any form past training?

Yes, I realize that. However, ANYONE who signs up for the military does have the possibility of being sent to a war zone. That is a real risk of signing up. There are things you can do to mitigate your chances of being in such a place, but anyone can be re-assigned as needed. Some people absolutely do not want to take such a risk. If that is the case, they should not sign up for military service.

[Broomstick]

So why is living with strangers inherently better than living with family? Would you have similar objections to, say, a young adult living with an aunt and uncle? (an arrangement that almost occurred with my family when one of my nephews expressed some interest in going to school in the Chicago area). With cousins? A sibling? Or must people live with strangers or alone to be actually adult in your eye?

Come on? Seriously? We're asking these questions as if the answer isn't obvious? Equal footing? Lets face it, being someones kid gives you great leverage in the relationship. Where your parent would/should put up with a lot more negative behavior that a roommate ever would. A parent would/could forgive late payments for rent a lot easier than just a roommate. A parent will be less lenient (or should) on all this bullshit 'share resources' talk that's rampant in the thread.

Living with roommates creates, at least in the beginning, an equal relationship between all parties instead of a seriously slanted biased relationship that already exists between a child and a set of parents.

Thank you for actually supplying a rationale for preferring strangers as roommates to family - that is what I was looking for, someone to justify their stance with an actual argument rather than simply gut reaction. Your response was exactly what I was looking for.

[Lonestar]

I'm not sure it's possible to do all that by one's "early 20's".

It's possible to do one of the above or a combination of it in their 20s. Joining the military OR doing a tour with a -Corps OR becoming a grad student can be done.

I'm not sure how "living in a shitty apartment" should be an essential part of the maturation process. If he can avoid that particular hardship why not? Or are you in the camp that thinks a bout with grinding poverty somehow teaches valuable lessons or builds character? Poverty sucks, OK? There's nothing wrong with avoiding it.

If his argument is "I don't want to live in a shitty apartment, that's why", well, that isn't a good argument. I also don't know what to him a "shitty apartment" is, because that's kinda subjective. I've been told that I live in a shitty apartment, but I don't think.

[It's not always a matter of "adjusting" - a surprising number of conditions that the civilian world considers trivial can bar you from military service, meaning someone who appears healthy may not be able to get into any branch of the military. I get tired of "join the military" being thrown out as the solution to all economic ills for young adults.

Like what conditions? I've seen all manner of people join the military that you would not think of as "military material"(I think the argument could be made I'm one of them), including those with self-diagonsed Aspergers and ADHD.

Also, stuff like Jobs Corps/AmericCorps/ even Peace-by-God Corps wouldn't have the same restrictions the military does.

I get the feeling that you consider any mention of difficulty to be "whining". Stating that life is difficult is not necessarily whining. I certainly didn't get that from him.

I did.

He also stated that there was hardly any pressure. That doesn't sound like the parents are a seething kettle of resentment.

Or that he is seeing what he wants to see.

So fucking what? What the hell difference does the type of work make? Or do you feel that secretarial work is only one step above toilet scrubber? For several generations secretarial work was a viable long-term career option for women. Thank you for sneering at how I've managed to support myself and my family for the quarter century, asshole.

Yeah, I am offended at your dismissive attitude. I didn't take the career path to get rich, I took it because at the time it appeared to offer a stable means of income. There was no way, that long ago, I could have foreseen how the world would change. Hell, when I started desktop PC's were unheard of in businesses, and I was doing double-entry bookkeeping with a pencil, paper, and mechanical adding machine as spreadsheet software hadn't been invented yet.

What a thrilling story about the history of the secretarial position. I was thinking more along the lines of "If I am an employer looking to hire someone, will it be the person with 25 years in a static position, or someone who has shown she can move upwards?" Alternatively, if I were hiring for a secretarial position, would I hire someone with 25 years who may be expecting the pay to go with the experience, or will I just grab someone out of college who doesn't know any better? These thoughts occured WITHOUT "sneering" at the position itself.

And really? It never once occurred to you that if the economy tanks you are going to need more bullets in your gun than "Office Secretary 1980-present"?

Right. Something I had wanted to do all my life and finally had the opportunity to do. It would have been nice if I could have, for example, joined the Air Force to get my wings but they wouldn't take me - remember I mentioned conditions that civilian world considers trivial that the military doesn't accept? I have two of them. Sucks to be me, I guess, military service has never been an option for me, no matter how good my health.

So yes, absolutely, I took advantage of an opportunity to do something I felt was worthwhile. I did it without costing anyone else any money, paid my bills, and even saved up a nest egg while doing it.

Okay, fine. Good for you.

Oh, please - I never got "comfortable" in that sense, I was always aware that I could be laid off. Hell, I've been laid off before, this isn't the first time. I had continued to improve myself professionally over time, that's why every time before now I was never out of work long enough to collect unemployment before. That's right - every other time I've lost a job I was re-employed within 1-2 weeks. I'm sorry it fucks with your concept of reality but this recession really is different that prior ones. Or did you think I never updated my skills from manual typewriters and pen-and-pencil bookkeeping? I've never heard of a graduate degree program in secretarial science, advanced degrees are not always the only or best way to advance a career.

You got comfortable in the sense that you had no problem staying in a position that was essentially entry level. Okay fine. But try not to act all shocked when a 25 years trend of office automation results in the number of openings shrinking, and someone right out of college will do the job for less(NOT SAYING this is true in your specific case, but from an employer's view it might be).

YOU just don't want to deal with the fact that sometimes shit happens no matter what you do - probably because it frightens you to think you might wind up poor through no fault of your own.

You know, at least once in this thread I've acknowledged that "shit happens", which could result in moving back in with ones' parents.

But your particular position doesn't really frighten me because I have several bullets in my gun, and one of them is silver.

In my case pretty had nothing to do with it - I was eliminated to due to not being able to pass the physical requirements. Despite being healthy by any measure you care to name.

Alright fine.

He might even be eliminated before that.

This is a true statement.

Yeah, let's just ignore the possibility of being sent to a war zone and shot, being left maimed for life or killed. I'm so glad your experience in the military was beneficial, but the military is not a social welfare program, it's military. Not everyone wants to risk getting shot to further their career goals.

(1)I'm not even saying it's a social welfare program, but when people state that they have a problem I interpet that as "I am seeking suggestions for solutions". Joining the Military is a viable solution for the problem presented in the case of some of the poeple on this board.
(2)I am NOT ignoring the possibility of being sent to a war zone, BUT:
(2a)It is possible to spend your entire military career at the blunt end of the spear. This is especially true if you are in a highly technical position.
(2b)The military does a lot of things to mitigate the dangers when you ARE in a combat zone.
(2c)While the military is a dangerous profession, so are a lot of others.

[Broomstick]

I'm not sure how "living in a shitty apartment" should be an essential part of the maturation process. If he can avoid that particular hardship why not? Or are you in the camp that thinks a bout with grinding poverty somehow teaches valuable lessons or builds character? Poverty sucks, OK? There's nothing wrong with avoiding it.

If his argument is "I don't want to live in a shitty apartment, that's why", well, that isn't a good argument.

Why not? Looking back on my life, my first apartment, with it's cockroaches, mice, rats, shitty insulation (I had icicles as long as my finger hanging off the interior windowsills in winter), dysfunctional appliances, and the regular mugging of people on the corner of the street was no prize - I really would have been better off "mooching" off my parents than living in such debased conditions without absolutely needing to.

Fortunately, I was able to move out of that situation rather quickly but all around it was quite a bad mistake on my part.

[It's not always a matter of "adjusting" - a surprising number of conditions that the civilian world considers trivial can bar you from military service, meaning someone who appears healthy may not be able to get into any branch of the military. I get tired of "join the military" being thrown out as the solution to all economic ills for young adults.

Like what conditions?

Quite a few - look up the physical requirements for joining a branch of service. Just needing a strong enough prescription for eyeglasses can make getting into the military extremely difficult.

I've seen all manner of people join the military that you would not think of as "military material"(I think the argument could be made I'm one of them), including those with self-diagonsed Aspergers and ADHD.

"Self-diagnosed" is bullshit. If you have an official diagnosis of either of those two it is extremely unlikely that you could ever get into the military under any circumstance.

Also, stuff like Jobs Corps/AmericCorps/ even Peace-by-God Corps wouldn't have the same restrictions the military does.

No. There are still some requirements, but they are less restrictive.

What a thrilling story about the history of the secretarial position. I was thinking more along the lines of "If I am an employer looking to hire someone, will it be the person with 25 years in a static position, or someone who has shown she can move upwards?" Alternatively, if I were hiring for a secretarial position, would I hire someone with 25 years who may be expecting the pay to go with the experience, or will I just grab someone out of college who doesn't know any better? These thoughts occured WITHOUT "sneering" at the position itself.

And really? It never once occurred to you that if the economy tanks you are going to need more bullets in your gun than "Office Secretary 1980-present"?

You continue to display your ignorance of the profession. My final job title in corporate America was "Executive Assistant", which requires at least either some sort of degree or 10+ years experience or both. It is NOT an "entry level" position in any way, shape, or form. Salary ranges from $50,000-70,000 per year in such positions. It is a highly skilled, highly demanding profession in its own right. You ASSUME "secretary" is a "static position". It is not. Or at least it doesn't have to be. Of course you clearly don't give the profession any respect whatsoever.

As for "more bullets in my gun" - over ten years ago I negotiated, as a worst case scenario, that if I became unemployed and could not find a job quickly my landlord would hire me to work for him in the construction industry (where, believe it or not, I also have some prior experience). That is, in fact, what happened. Gee, my back up plan worked, what a surprise. Of course, that was contingent on me maintaining a level of health and physical fitness to enable me to engage in such labor. Right now the biggest problem isn't he hourly wage (it's not great, but it is a living wage) but rather the lack of work. The boss can't keep himself working 40 hours a week, much less anyone else. Hence why I am also selling some writing on the side. Not making much there, either, but I am making some and gives me something to do when I don't have work from other sources.

I have plans for a career change in the works, but it will take some time to implement them. Either that, or if the economy picks up maybe they'll start hiring admin office workers again.

You got comfortable in the sense that you had no problem staying in a position that was essentially entry level. Okay fine.

Nope - see above about executive-level assistants. You may not believe it, but it is considerably beyond entry level.

But try not to act all shocked when a 25 years trend of office automation results in the number of openings shrinking, and someone right out of college will do the job for less(NOT SAYING this is true in your specific case, but from an employer's view it might be).

Yes, there are secretarial jobs that someone "just out of college" can do. Hell, there are those someone just out of high school can do. That is not the level at which I was working when I was most recently laid off.

He might even be eliminated before that.

This is a true statement.

Yes, and why, truthfully, I am glad you mentioned alternatives to just the military. I just think the military is over-promoted as an option.

While the military is a dangerous profession, so are a lot of others.

Yes. I'd also caution any young person contemplating a career with the police, firefighters, coal miners, steel foundry workers, professional ocean fishing, or any number of other potentially dangerous professions. I also caution anyone going into the arts, but for entirely different reasons than physical dangers.

[Aaron]

Actually, I believe the Peace Corps does provide pay. Not very much, but how the hell do you think people pay for food and housing while on assignment? It's subsistence level, though, you won't build a nest egg doing it. Don't know about AmeriCorps, but I suspect there's some pay, too.

If you go overseas with the Peace Corps, you get enough pay to live in country but they give you 6000$ when you get back to use as you wish. Is it much? No but it's nothing to sneeze at and after 27 months away (the standard amount) the situation job wise in your country might have changed for the better.

You continue to display your ignorance of the profession. My final job title in corporate America was "Executive Assistant", which requires at least either some sort of degree or 10+ years experience or both. It is NOT an "entry level" position in any way, shape, or form. Salary ranges from $50,000-70,000 per year in such positions. It is a highly skilled, highly demanding profession in its own right. You ASSUME "secretary" is a "static position". It is not. Or at least it doesn't have to be. Of course you clearly don't give the profession any respect whatsoever.

As for "more bullets in my gun" - over ten years ago I negotiated, as a worst case scenario, that if I became unemployed and could not find a job quickly my landlord would hire me to work for him in the construction industry (where, believe it or not, I also have some prior experience). That is, in fact, what happened. Gee, my back up plan worked, what a surprise. Of course, that was contingent on me maintaining a level of health and physical fitness to enable me to engage in such labor. Right now the biggest problem isn't he hourly wage (it's not great, but it is a living wage) but rather the lack of work. The boss can't keep himself working 40 hours a week, much less anyone else. Hence why I am also selling some writing on the side. Not making much there, either, but I am making some and gives me something to do when I don't have work from other sources.

I have plans for a career change in the works, but it will take some time to implement them. Either that, or if the economy picks up maybe they'll start hiring admin office workers again.

Broomie, IIRC I pointed out to you shortly after you lost your job that your skills would have let you immigrate here. Where at least you would not be at risk of starving or going err...broker from medical bills.

[RedImperator]

Question to Americans, what about other large scale job programs such as the Peace Corps, AmeriCorps etc.? These programs probably don't provide a wage, but are a very nice way to add to the Resume and can provide job opportunities later on.

Unfortunately, student loan companies aren't interested in hearing about how you're personally bettering yourself or creating job opportunities for the future.

[Broomstick]

Broomie, IIRC I pointed out to you shortly after you lost your job that your skills would have let you immigrate here. Where at least you would not be at risk of starving or going err...broker from medical bills.

True. However, after contacting the proper authorities to make more detailed inquiries I found my husband would be unable to immigrate with me. That path would have required me to leave behind a disabled spouse for however many years it would take me to establish Canadian citizenship so I could bring him over. I do not find abandoning family to be an acceptable course of action, although there was no way for either of us to know that would be a consequence when you made the suggestion.

[Aaron]

True. However, after contacting the proper authorities to make more detailed inquiries I found my husband would be unable to immigrate with me. That path would have required me to leave behind a disabled spouse for however many years it would take me to establish Canadian citizenship so I could bring him over. I do not find abandoning family to be an acceptable course of action, although there was no way for either of us to know that would be a consequence when you made the suggestion.

I understand, I wouldn't find that an acceptable course either.

[aerius]

Question for the "join the military!" folks. Going by this chart there's about 60 million Americans between the ages of 20 & 35 as of 2005, a third of them are stuck with parents as per the article in the OP so that's 20 million. Can the military even handle a significant number of those people should they choose to sign up? If not, then is "join the army!" still a valid solution?

[Aaron]

Question for the "join the military!" folks. Going by this chart there's about 60 million Americans between the ages of 20 & 35 as of 2005, a third of them are stuck with parents as per the article in the OP so that's 20 million. Can the military even handle a significant number of those people should they choose to sign up? If not, then is "join the army!" still a valid solution?

No, though the numbers of college grads tha Red posted earlier fits neatly into the yearly recruiting numbers. There where a number of other suggestions posted in this thread though, people have just chosen to focus on the Military. Frankly I figured by this point the thread had become offering points on what folks on the board could do and why they would rather not then suggestions about solving the job shortage in general.

[Broomstick]

True. However, after contacting the proper authorities to make more detailed inquiries I found my husband would be unable to immigrate with me. That path would have required me to leave behind a disabled spouse for however many years it would take me to establish Canadian citizenship so I could bring him over. I do not find abandoning family to be an acceptable course of action, although there was no way for either of us to know that would be a consequence when you made the suggestion.

I understand, I wouldn't find that an acceptable course either.

Quite. It might be a different matter if he was still capable of supporting himself. The separation would be difficult, in that case, but perhaps acceptable for a better future. However, in addition to the separation, emigrating to Canada would require me to maintain two household, and across an international border at that. As appealing as Canada may be (and it is, at least to me) it just does not seem a viable option for me at this time.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I've exhaustively studied Canadian immigration laws (though with a particular interest in those of Quebec's provincial settlement programme), and I didn't see anything where the spouse is considered separately for entry... Is this based on the fact that they would exclude your husband specifically due to his condition, Broomstick? I've always worked on the assumption of, if involved, having a healthy partner so I never looked at the possible medical exclusions for spouses of immigrants into Canada.

[Broomstick]

Yes, basically they don't want (potentially expensive) cripples emigrating to Canada unless a Canadian citizen is willing to pay for their upkeep. In other words, I'm welcome but my spouse is not.

[Raj Ahten]

Question to Americans, what about other large scale job programs such as the Peace Corps, AmeriCorps etc.? These programs probably don't provide a wage, but are a very nice way to add to the Resume and can provide job opportunities later on.

Unfortunately, student loan companies aren't interested in hearing about how you're personally bettering yourself or creating job opportunities for the future.

Luckily Americorps programs give you loan forbearance while you undertake them. To answer an earlier question, yes Americorps does pay you at the rate of about $90 a week or so to pay for food, at least in their NCCC program. You live in a dorm during training and are given uniforms and even limited health insurance, so there aren't a lot of other living expenses to deal with. You also get a $5000 education grant that can be used to pay off student loans or the like after you have put in about ten months worth of full time service. Once training is done you travel all over the Western US undertaking 6-8 week long projects or respond to major disasters as needed.

I happen to know about this because I myself am shipping out to the Americorps NCCC Sacramento Campus in October. That happens to be the other side of the country from where I live, but I've traveled further away from home before.

[ArmorPierce]

I'm going to tone down the name calling in my posts because it's getting me too riled up before getting to bed and am having trouble sleeping. Don't take it as me backing off from my position

That was your one line response to my assertion that there is a moral responsibility from the parents to the kids past the age of 18. Under current laws if you don't got insurance and can't pay for treatment, you're fucked, you don't get treatment until it's an emergency. Running with that logic, the law is perfectly moral because laws are derived from our morals.

Hmmm. The difference, of course, being that there is no law that puts sole responsibility for a person's health on that person, whereas when you become 18 you(as a rule) become legally responsible for the consequences of your most of your actionsd.

What does that have to do with morality of law?

Your caveats seems to exclude: being poor, trying to become financially stable, it being the social norm and perfectly acceptable in your culture. From your posts in response to my living situation, your beliefs on living your parents is basically "Don't want to move out because you're poor? Then you are just a lazy over-privileged failure of a human being. Being barely able to afford to pay rent, food, loans, etc or not extenuating circumstances."

Nonsense. None of my caveats are blanket exclusions of those things. But if you are poor and not going the distance to make yourself marketable, then yeah, my loser-o-meter jumps up quite a bit.[/quote]

None of your caveats are blanket exclusions of those things meaning that your caveats do include those things? That's what I get from the first part but not sure if that's exactly what you're saying.

People from different cultures than your own where it is a social norm to live with your parents into your adulthood are failures of human beings? I explained that my parent's are from such a culture and their culture and beliefs have been partially instilled onto me. So other people's cultural beliefs are bad and the wrong way to do things but yours is the right and good way of doing things despite you being unable to prove to me that Americans living in this sort of culture is so much better off than their equivalents from other countries?

Except, you aren't in the country of your parents origins. And you've been bleating about "being poor" as a primary motivator for you staying home, not "cultural circumstances", which leads me to adopt a healthy amount of skepticism on the claim you are making with this sentence.

So what if I'm not in the country of my parent's origin? Immigrants that move here have to all of the sudden pick up the local cultural and social norms here because they are better or something? You do realize that Asian immigrants have a much higher percentage of children staying with their parents into young adulthood than normal American families. Do they have to pick up on American culture or else they are failures of human beings? Or does it fall to me to pick up what you expect from an American even though my personal contact for a lot of my life has been decisively not typical American culture?

This is the reason why I don't consider myself American, merely a American citizen. I consider me to be me not American or anything else, because otherwise you are expected to follow a set of beliefs, cultural and social norms when mine are mixed.

No I was not bleating about being poor as a primary motivator. You took it as the primary motivator ignoring all my other reason, accusing me of being a overprivileged whiney 20-something year old staying home to live in the excess of my parents

Here again you confirming that "saving money" is not a good reason to live home. Show me why.

You are maintaining a parasitic relationship with your parents who have already dump staggering amounts of resources into you for the first 18 years. That you aren't even disputing that you probably aren't paying signifigantly into the household leads me to conclude you are engaged in a parasitic relationship.

And again you make claims ignoring the good that my future income is to bring to my family. You also labeled the majority of the worlds population as living in parasitic relationships and they would learn a lesson from following the American model. It's not parasitic if the favor is to be returned if/when need be.

Further, you have failed to demonstrate it being a bad thing if parents don't have issue with it.

Show me the evidence that majority of people staying home are being taught that they can just stooge off their parents forever.

Are you seriously saying I cannot look at "1/3 under 35 staying at home", the progeny of one of the most financially successful generations in this country, and make a reasonable inference that the reason why they are staying at home is because they want to maintain the huge amounts of disposable income that they had before?

No because your personal opinion on that matter doesn't make it true. Now show me the evidence already or give up that line of reasoning. I especially like the last part where you twist my question on what you previously stated to something more easier to defend.

You do realize that having several people living under the same roof is far more economical than spreading out and the costs of doing such does not increase so much, right?

You do realize you can do the same without living with your parents? It's called "roommates".

You do realize that some people consider think that keeping your resources within the family and helping out each others is better than giving it to others, right?

Alright here you go making a bunch of assumptions. I worked 25 hours during the school year and full time during the summer while taking upwards of 21 credits in order to graduate as soon as possible with paying as little money as possible. How else would I be able to pay for school and expenseson my own when I'm from a poor family dumb ass? Why else do I have loans?

So JOIN THE FUCKING MILITARY, you'll be largely covered, and you'll get (1)Job experience (2)have enough cash to help out your family. People do it all the time. It is an easy fix to a situation that dire.

You are right, I could join the military and it is an option. An option that I chose not to take thus-far (almost did several times). I know a few people that have taken this choice.

I do find it disturbing a poor person's only option is join the army (and it seems to be more preferable to you than living at home). After all, we do need people to fight the rich man's wars.

I am saving up money in order to take the review classes and the exams that for my field and am planning on pursuing a grad degree even though it is not necessary (or even affects your marketability at all) in the field that I am interested in pursuing.

Military would pay for that too.[/quote]

Yup

You don't care that things are rougher for college graduates than it ever was before, believe me, I get it.

I'm rockign 12 credits a semester and working over 40 hours. Probably about 30% I'm traveling because of work.

So cry me a fucking river about how hard life is.[/quote]

This has anything to do with fresh college graduates facing a harder time than ever before and you not caring about it because... ?

I have barely seen any of this huge pressure to move out as soon as possible and only have encountered one girl who actually have a problem with this. Maybe it's a cultural difference due to me having immigrant parents and hanging out with people who are not typical Americans (or American at all).

So you acknowledge that the pressure DOES exist? Has it occurred to you that your parents are being quiet about it because you are their child, and harboring resentment?

Nice misrepresentation of my quote.

No , I did not acknowledge that the pressure does exist in my house or in my family. I was talking about pressure in society where outside of here (this website) I've only encountered one person who held the view that guys should move out as soon as possible (actually two now that I think about it... the reason each time from the girls is so that the guy could have their girlfriend come over and not be bothered by the parents... best reason in the world).

Now here you go claiming that all these cultures where parents do that are actually secretively harboring resentment toward their children

You expressly ignored the fact that I mentioned that my parents have expressed the desire for me to stay living with them and the desire possibly move in with one of us one day.

Maybe you can spend a couple minutes actually reading some of my posts in the thread before spouting off none sense?

You are either a liar or stupid.

(1)I have SPECIFICALY EXCLUDED college as a reason to throw people in their 20s out of the house

Did I state you did?

Our conversation

Again you make all these statements like they are facts with out any supporting evidence. So every where else in the world where kids stay with their parents well into their adulthood is the norm are failures?

Congrats on failing to repeatably ignore the caveats I've thrown in there, helping out with college/making a transition etc. Isn't bad. It's this permanent living-at-home mentality that is. Especially when you have ambiguous benchmarks for when to leave.

responded above and here's a quote of mine that was another reason that you didn't find good enough [/quote]

To stop it from getting long, I had cited things that I had stated before including differing cultural norms, being poor, getting financially stable.

(2)Your repeated use of the past tense in describing college and the difficulties of finding job with just a college degree led me to read that as "I am not currently doing anything to increase my marketability."

[/quote]

Not my problem, yours. Maybe you shouldn't be spouting off calling people out by name, making assumptions, and spend a couple minutes reading previous posts to make sure that your response is correct? Just a thought.

If the situation is really as dire as you are making it out to be, then you should join the military and send cash home.

My parents believe that I should become financially stable myself before contributing to the household.

No you didn't, you just stated that the kids were failure of human beings and your caveats if you go by how you called me out seems to be about non-existent. Go ahead and back pedal if you want

Point out where I said there is zero reason for someone between 18-35 to be living at hom with their parents.

I didn't say zero I said 'about non-existent.' So far the only reasons I see is college and the rare 'shit happens.'

No you didn't, you suggested that kids moving out of their house magically instilled some knowledge that is better than the knowledge that they may gain at home when this is demonstrably not true

I've suggested that when people have to take personal responsibility for their finances, they tend to become mroe frugal, yes.

I do agree that people taking personal responsibility for their finances tends to make them more frugal and teaches them about the value of the dollar.

Someone spending $1,000+ rent a month when they have no reason not to live at home is not my idea of being more frugal. (Yes I'm sure that you are going to say but its parent's money being spent now and as I stated family unit or can split etc, etc, etc).

The credit crunch has yet to disprove this idea for you? The fact that countries where kids living at home are more frugal than here not disprove this idea? The fact that there are more kids living at home into their young adulthood and are currently becoming more frugal disprove this?

So your argument is "Some people exploit their parents by staying home, hence they are all losers and should all move out. Doing otherwise makes you a failure of a human being."

So, you aren't disputing the actual inference I made. Gotcha.

What's your inference, that some people exploit their parents? No, I would not dispute that there are some people that do this, just as there are some people that exploit unemployment benefits, welfare, food stamps, sick days, wives, children, basically anything that can be exploitable. I find it amusing that that you think that validates your argument

Sorry, you suddenly ranting about baby boomers at me made me assume I was the target.

I didn't know what you are but would more assume you to have been generation X than a baby boomer. You are right, it was a tangent.

[ArmorPierce]

Except not everyone can join the military, nor is everyone suited to it. Yes, it's an excellent suggestion and a possible solution but it is not the cure-all you're implying it is.

Amorpierce appears to be a healthy young man in his 20s. He mentioned being "sick", but that isn't nessecarily a show stopper for joining the military. While there are exceptions to the rule, by and large ANYONE can adjust to military life. I did.[/quote][/quote]

Yes I am a young healthy man in my 20s. What I was "sick" with was actually something that is very easily cured (it only took one day actually) and the effects from it mostly cleared up in the following days and weeks. As for how I had it cured I actually did have some limited insurance through the school that I had purchased but would not pay for a specialist (as I was told from someone who had gone to the same specialist and had to pay it out of pocket). I was misdiagnosed several times by doctors. I went on the internets and determined what I had on my own but hoped to wait until after I was done with the semester and had some spare change to go see the specialist. Got worse and worse until I finally decided to try the school doctor again, told him what I thought it was, he agreed, and got the medication for it. Really was the worse 6 months of my life on top of the fact that I was working 25+ hours and taking 21 credits.

Neither does whining about how hard life is, which he started with.

Lie. You stated that I had a over privileged life that I was not willing to give up and that I am a failure of a human being for living with my parents. I pointed that the first part is wrong and how the second part is stupid.

NEWSFLASH: He acknowledged that there is some existing pressure. This lends more support to my theory than yours.

NEWSFLASH: NO I DIDN'T. I would also really appreciate it if you stopped making shit up about me please?

I love how you inserted that "only" in there as if I said it was.

I love the way how you state that someone should move out because it teaches them so-and-so lesson but at the same time freely admit that it's not the only way.

[Aaron]

I've exhaustively studied Canadian immigration laws (though with a particular interest in those of Quebec's provincial settlement programme), and I didn't see anything where the spouse is considered separately for entry... Is this based on the fact that they would exclude your husband specifically due to his condition, Broomstick? I've always worked on the assumption of, if involved, having a healthy partner so I never looked at the possible medical exclusions for spouses of immigrants into Canada.

Typically what happens is that a person immigrates here, gets citizenship and then sponsors the family to come over. Broomie and hubby should be able to come up together if someone sponsored them. I doubt it's quite as heartless as she makes it out to be.

[Broomstick]

I've exhaustively studied Canadian immigration laws (though with a particular interest in those of Quebec's provincial settlement programme), and I didn't see anything where the spouse is considered separately for entry... Is this based on the fact that they would exclude your husband specifically due to his condition, Broomstick? I've always worked on the assumption of, if involved, having a healthy partner so I never looked at the possible medical exclusions for spouses of immigrants into Canada.

Typically what happens is that a person immigrates here, gets citizenship and then sponsors the family to come over. Broomie and hubby should be able to come up together if someone sponsored them. I doubt it's quite as heartless as she makes it out to be.

Well, yes, if someone sponsors me it would make it all much easier. The trick is to get that sponsor. If I had relatives in Canada it would probably be much, much easier but I don't.

If he was still able-bodied he could get a job in Canada, either as an engineer or a music teacher (he has connections at a couple of Canadian universities). Heck, at one point he had his permanent resident papers for the UK, which I'm told are much more difficult to get. The problem is, since he is disabled he is now seen as undesirable.

Right now we're hoping that the Other Half's court hearing in November will finally get him his Federal disability benefits which, if it does, will also grant him a back award of ten years of benefits (yes - that would mean he should have been receiving a monthly check for the prior ten years but wasn't!). IF that occurs - and I really hope it does - then we will be financially solvent again with much more in the way of resources for bettering our future. Including the ability to travel to other places to seek work. We will become a two income family again (albeit two small incomes) and the average combined income should not only be sufficient to pay our bills but also to allow us to build up a six-month's nest egg again, among other things like possibly job training for a new career path for me. If I have a bad month he would still be able to pay the rent or buy food or whatever.

(It should also grant him immediate access to Medicare, though that is not guaranteed.)

If that doesn't happen we'll be stuck staggering along in our current situation where the bootstraps by which we are expected lift ourselves up are exceedingly short. We keep seeking other options, and multiple options, but it really is very difficult out there right now. Anyone who says otherwise is full of shit. I have never seen the job situation this bad before, and my father says it hasn't been this bad since the Great Depression. My family may not all be living under the same roof but we most certainly ARE pooling our resources and shifting money back and forth between us. In some ways I do wish we lived closer. If I thought I had a better chance of getting a job in the Buffalo area I'd seriously consider job hunting there while staying with my sister and using her address as a contact point. The only problem is the cost of moving....

>sigh<

[JME2]

I just want to go on an unrelated side-note and touch back on when I was discussing my college friends and our living situations. Last night, I went to my high school reunion, shot the shit with several old friends and teachers, etc. I found out that all of my former classmates are also struggling to find work and all are living with their parents at the moment. Strangely, this is doesn't fill me with the same worry and dread that the situation with my ex-college friends does. Small world...

[MKSheppard]

WTF are you talking about Shep? You know how much a Pvt made in 97? 19K a year, we didn't start to make "ok" pay until well into the 2000's.

According to http://www.dfas.mil/ and it's highly useful charts

In 1997, base pay for a lower ranking enlisted was about $900-$1,010 a month; while minimum wage for that period was $5.15; or $824 a month (160 hrs)

Today, base pay for a lower ranking enlisted is about $1,347-$1,500 a month; while minimum wage is $7.25; or $1,160 a month.

Factor in the fact that you'll save quite a bit by living on base in barracks housing -- the discomfort in some older barracks, and the fact that you'll be handy for anyone who needs a warm body at the moment, does get outweighed by savings -- in that you don't have to pay basically for a major expense for those at the bottom of the job ladder - housing.

Same thing for health care -- while military provided health care isn't that great -- "take five motrin and call me in the morning, private" -- it does provide a basic level of care for free, eliminating another major expense.

You also get decent quality training followed by on the job experience -- if you decided to become a 91A; an Abrams Tank System Maintainer; you'd get experience in repairing electronic systems, hydraulic systems, power train systems, etc; opening up major jobs in the civilian field for you. Additionally, if your job requires clearance, you go through that process, and can get a clearance that is VERY useful in opening up decent jobs in the DC area for free!

Basically, if you keep in mind a few simple rules, you can get out with a nice pile of cash and excellent qualifications.

1.) Don't spend your entire career in combat arms. (that only generally gets you police jobs, or security jobs outside the service).
2.) Don't blow your pay on stupid things like brand new corvettes or bikes.
3.) Don't blow your pay on whores.
4.) Don't blow your pay on booze.
5.) Don't get married at Tech School and have wife pop out two rugrats in a few years.

[Aaron]

I'm going to be honest with you Shep, I don't have much interest in pursuing this discussion with you. I'm a Canadian, so a fair bit of what you've posted doesn't apply to us, some of it does but not enough to have a discussion on the differences between US and Canadian forces and the various ways we get fucked.