Danish Conservatives Call for Burqa Ban

[dragon]

I best this won't go over so well with certain Islamic groups.
But then the politician is right as the Burqa is not part of the religion but was introduced in order to control the women better. But fundies in any religion don't care about the truth but only what they want. Example it's expressive forbiden in the Koran to kill yourself but look at all the sucided bombers beleiving they will go to heaven despite not obeying the book.

The immigration spokesman for Denmark's Conservative Party is calling for a ban on the wearing of burqas in public. He says the garment was introduced by the Taliban and is "not Islamic at all."

Denmark's Conservative Party said this week it wants to introduce a ban on Muslim burqa or niqab dress codes which require women to completely cover their faces in public.

A niqab wearer in Marseille: A Danish Conservative Party politician has called for a ban on burqas.
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AP

A niqab wearer in Marseille: A Danish Conservative Party politician has called for a ban on burqas.
"We don't want to see burqas in Denmark. We simply can't accept that some of our citizens walk around with their faces covered," Naser Khader, a Danish member of parliament of Syrian-Palestinian extraction who was recently appointed spokesman for integration issues for the Conservative Party, told the newspaper Jyllands-Posten.

In comments published on Sunday, Khader said the burqa is un-Danish and oppressive towards women and should be completely banned. He and his party say that what people do in their own homes is their business, but as soon as they walk into the public domain, one should be able to see their faces.

The Danish People's Party and the Social Democratic Party have welcomed the proposal, while the Liberal Party, which is the senior partner in Denmark's coalition government, rejects the idea of legislating about citizens' clothing, provided they are not employed in a public function.

"It's going too far if we start legislating on what sort of clothes people can and cannot wear. The burqa and covered faces should not be allowed if you work with people in the public sector -- but that is where we draw the line," says Liberal Party political spokesman Peter Christensen, who adds that it is important that politicians know where to draw the line in introducing policy.

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Khader, however, says a ban is the only solution. "My view is that (the burqa) is not Islamic at all," Khader says. "The modern burqa was introduced by the Taliban when the movement came to power. So I associate the burqa with the Taliban."

The burqa ban is part of an integration initiative that the Conservatives' parliamentary group approved on Friday, although the party has not decided what punishment should be meted out to those who break the ban.

"Initially we're sending out a signal by saying that it should be banned. Then it's up to the lawyers to find out what sanctions should be introduced," Khader told the Jyllands-Posten.

Denmark is not the only European country where politicians have proposed a ban on burqas. French President Nicolas Sarkozy recently said that the burqa was "not welcome" in France, while France's urban regeneration minister, Fadela Amara, told the Saturday edition of the Financial Times that she was in favor of the burqa "not existing in my country." The Netherlands has also considered a ban on burqas.

Edited for got link sorry.

link

[Julhelm]

I hope it does get banned. Such primitive values are not compatible with what modern secular europe stands for. There has to be some limit on just how lenient religions and 'customs' get treated.

[dragon]

The only problem is that the head will still be covered as this is only a ban against the face covering. So they'll still be forced to mostly coverup instead of full cover up.

[dragon]

Hum on a certain other board that begins with the letter S a lot of people are complaining that if they start forcing this then in the future it might be the Jews that are forced to stop wearing beards and hats. Even though several people poked holes in his argument others supported it. He seems to forget that this is nothing new as places have put bans on certain types of clothing such as gang colors. And that the Jewish men are wearing the clothes not because they are forced to but because they want to. Sort of like the wanna be cowboys wearing boots and Stetson hats when they go to clubs in the evening. Hell I seen groups of lawyers that wear them to court.

[Dillon]

While I understand the concern of anonymity when it comes to women wearing the burqa or any person wearing any face covering in public, is there a record of them abusing this anonymity to commit crimes?

If not, then I would venture that the ban will only serve to pointlessly further divide Europeans and the Muslims living among them.

[Bluewolf]

I hope it does get banned. Such primitive values are not compatible with what modern secular europe stands for.

Modern Secular Europe? Its no lie that Europe is probably one of the most secular continents but its still religious for stuff like this to be debated over and many countries still have a fair religious majority. On top of that talk about arrogance there. Of course the civillsed values of the Europe shall cast down this primitive custom from aboard. I don't normally make an issue with this but you really do sound like that.

On topic: I am not sure this will serve any use and as said, may just cause more of a pointless divide. Maybe a comprimise could be reached.

[[R_H]]

While I understand the concern of anonymity when it comes to women wearing the burqa or any person wearing any face covering in public, is there a record of them abusing this anonymity to commit crimes?

If not, then I would venture that the ban will only serve to pointlessly further divide Europeans and the Muslims living among them.

If I'm not mistaken a criminal in England used a burqa either to conceal his identity while commiting crimes or to escape.

[ray245]

While I understand the concern of anonymity when it comes to women wearing the burqa or any person wearing any face covering in public, is there a record of them abusing this anonymity to commit crimes?

If not, then I would venture that the ban will only serve to pointlessly further divide Europeans and the Muslims living among them.

If I'm not mistaken a criminal in England used a burqa either to conceal his identity while commiting crimes or to escape.

Surely if the primary concern is with the burqa being able to conceal your identiy, you should call for a ban of all face concealing items?

[Lusankya]

The only problem is that the head will still be covered as this is only a ban against the face covering. So they'll still be forced to mostly coverup instead of full cover up.

That level of covering up really is in essence a fashion choice. I don't see how you could possibly legislate against it without massive discrimination. For face covering, yes, there is a security element to the argument, but there is absolutely no justification for getting pissy at them for wearing long sleeves and a headscarf.

Surely if the primary concern is with the burqa being able to conceal your identiy, you should call for a ban of all face concealing items?

You have a point. What's the functional difference between an Islamic woman wearing a burqa and an Asian person wearing a face mask when they have cold or flu symptoms (especially if they're wearing sunglasses and maybe a hat at the same time)? Western culture does actually have a rather extreme obsession with looking at people's faces.

Certainly the arguments regarding security are valid, but if it's only a specific ban on burqa wearing, then there are serious holes in the legislation.

[[R_H]]

Ah, here we go.

Burqa-wearing bank robber (North Carolina)

Authorities in North Carolina don't know whether they are looking for a man or a woman in the search for a burqa-wearing bandit who walked into a bank Tuesday and pointed a gun at a teller before exiting with a bag full of money.

..the wrap exposed only the individual's eyes and nose, making it difficult for police to determine the person's gender.

Another burqa-wearing bank robber (Philadelphia)

The teller reported seeing a bank customer, who she believed was a woman, walk in the bank at 250 E. Lancaster Ave. about 10 a.m. The customer was wearing a full-length Muslim-style robe and hijab headpiece, also known as a burqa, which had a narrow opening exposing only the person’s eyes, according to court papers.

As the teller took cash from a drawer and began stuffing it in the bag, the robber reportedly said, “Hurry up,” and the teller realized the robber was a man.

Burqa-wearing jewellery robber

A man thought to be wearing a burka threatened a security driver in Birmingham on 14 March with what is thought to be a firearm before fleeing.

Last Thursday, an armed robber pushing a child's buggy and disguised as a woman in a burka went to the Friends Jewellers in Smethwick, West Midlands.

He was joined by four other men who smashed cabinets before fleeing.

[ray245]

Either you attempt to ban headgears in public location or you don't. Trying to ban the Burqa in particular is an cultural attack.

If your problem is with women being forced to wear the Burqa, then simply teach girls in schools that they have a choice in what type of clothes they wear, and can report to authorities if anyone tries to abuse girls that don't listen to their husbands or parents.

[Spin Echo]

Surely if the primary concern is with the burqa being able to conceal your identiy, you should call for a ban of all face concealing items?

You have a point. What's the functional difference between an Islamic woman wearing a burqa and an Asian person wearing a face mask when they have cold or flu symptoms (especially if they're wearing sunglasses and maybe a hat at the same time)? Western culture does actually have a rather extreme obsession with looking at people's faces.

Certainly the arguments regarding security are valid, but if it's only a specific ban on burqa wearing, then there are serious holes in the legislation.

There was actually a ban on wearing balaclavas in Denmark in the 80's. I don't know whether it still exists.

[Dillon]

I just assumed that face coverings in general were already banned in Denmark and that the burqa was an exception for religious reasons. If the burqa is being targeted specifically for banning while other face coverings remain legal, then it would likely drive even a further wedge between native Danes and the Muslims living there than I originally thought.

[hongi]

And that the Jewish men are wearing the clothes not because they are forced to but because they want to.

How is that any different from women who want to wear burqas?

[Teebs]

Banning the full burqa makes me feel deeply uncomfortable. I don't see that there'd be much gain since people being forced to wear it would presumably just be forced to stay at home without it and banning something that isn't causing direct harm is not something to do casually. It also risks a backlash from the Muslim population.

On the other hand, I've got no problem with face coverings being banned in government buildings/shops e.t.c. and I don't think employers should have to employ someone who wears it in any role where they have to be in contact with the public.

[hongi]

But then the politician is right as the Burqa is not part of the religion but was introduced in order to control the women better.

I made this point over in SB, I'll make it again. When did the government get into the business of enforcing which interpretation of the religion is the right one? So what if burqas are not part of Islam? If a woman wants to wear it and you're not letting her, then it's you that has the problem.

You don't get rid of oppression by banning burqas. That will just motivate the fundies to keep the women under lock and key even more. Now that they can't be 'modest', they'll have to stay home all day. Good work. And isn't it the ban-crowd's point that burqas are just a symbol of oppression? Take away the symbol, you're still left with the oppression.

[dragon]

But then the politician is right as the Burqa is not part of the religion but was introduced in order to control the women better.

I made this point over in SB, I'll make it again. When did the government get into the business of enforcing which interpretation of the religion is the right one? So what if burqas are not part of Islam? If a woman wants to wear it and you're not letting her, then it's you that has the problem.

You don't get rid of oppression by banning burqas. That will just motivate the fundies to keep the women under lock and key even more. Now that they can't be 'modest', they'll have to stay home all day. Good work. And isn't it the ban-crowd's point that burqas are just a symbol of oppression? Take away the symbol, you're still left with the oppression.

Except it's not the women that wants to wear thats being ban it's the fact that the Islamic males use it as a control and the women have no say in the matter. Take for example that women can be stoned and or raped in certain places because their face is not covered. And taking away symbol is just the first step.
Hell look at how much time it took blacks to come from being a bunch of oppressed slaves to where they are now.

Maybe if the rest of the world would show to these females that they have rights to be free and un-oppressed then maybe just maybe things will start to get better. Hell look how many decades did it take for females to get equal rights. And thats was with tons of people on both side fighting for it.

[D.Turtle]

It should definitely be banned.

Otherwise women and girls will be forced by their husbands/fathers/relatives to wear burqas. If they are banned, they have a reason for not wearing them that can not be argued with - allowing them at least some freedom.

Fuck fundamentalists and their oh-so-precious religious freedom of oppression.

[ray245]

But then the politician is right as the Burqa is not part of the religion but was introduced in order to control the women better.

I made this point over in SB, I'll make it again. When did the government get into the business of enforcing which interpretation of the religion is the right one? So what if burqas are not part of Islam? If a woman wants to wear it and you're not letting her, then it's you that has the problem.

You don't get rid of oppression by banning burqas. That will just motivate the fundies to keep the women under lock and key even more. Now that they can't be 'modest', they'll have to stay home all day. Good work. And isn't it the ban-crowd's point that burqas are just a symbol of oppression? Take away the symbol, you're still left with the oppression.

Except it's not the women that wants to wear thats being ban it's the fact that the Islamic males use it as a control and the women have no say in the matter. Take for example that women can be stoned and or raped in certain places because their face is not covered. And taking away symbol is just the first step.
Hell look at how much time it took blacks to come from being a bunch of oppressed slaves to where they are now.

Maybe if the rest of the world would show to these females that they have rights to be free and un-oppressed then maybe just maybe things will start to get better. Hell look how many decades did it take for females to get equal rights. And thats was with tons of people on both side fighting for it.

And what if they make a concious choice to wear it as a personal preference and their fathers/husbands don't force them to wear it?

If they are being abused or forced to wear it, they could always approach the authorities. The only problem is you need to create an environment where those women realise they could approach the authorities for help, through educations in schools for instance.

[D.Turtle]

And what if they make a concious choice to wear it as a personal preference and their fathers/husbands don't force them to wear it?

If they are being abused or forced to wear it, they could always approach the authorities. The only problem is you need to create an environment where those women realise they could approach the authorities for help, through educations in schools for instance.

Go against their family, relatives, friends, and religious community?

Good luck with that.

[Guardsman Bass]

So what if burqas are not part of Islam? If a woman wants to wear it and you're not letting her, then it's you that has the problem.

[R-H] provided some examples, but the best reason to ban the burqa is because it's a completely body-concealing garment expected to be worn all the time outdoors, which opens up the possibility of being unable to verify identification and crimes being committed using the concealment it offers. It's not like this is limited to burqas, either - IIRC, at least a couple of states here in the US have anti-masking laws that were implemented to prevent groups like the KKK doing stuff under cloaks.

[ray245]

And what if they make a concious choice to wear it as a personal preference and their fathers/husbands don't force them to wear it?

If they are being abused or forced to wear it, they could always approach the authorities. The only problem is you need to create an environment where those women realise they could approach the authorities for help, through educations in schools for instance.

Go against their family, relatives, friends, and religious community?

Good luck with that.

If they are growing up in an environment where they have friends who don't share the same religious beliefs as them, they could do so. Make them realise the general public at large is willingly to stick up for them if they are being oppressed by their families.

One way you could do that is to ban all headgears in public locations such as schools for instance. If the girls grew up knowing that a majority of their classmates have no problem with them not wearing the Burqa, then this essentially creates an environment where the girl is able to disagree with their parent's beliefs.

[R-H] provided some examples, but the best reason to ban the burqa is because it's a completely body-concealing garment expected to be worn all the time outdoors, which opens up the possibility of being unable to verify identification and crimes being committed using the concealment it offers. It's not like this is limited to burqas, either - IIRC, at least a couple of states here in the US have anti-masking laws that were implemented to prevent groups like the KKK doing stuff under cloaks.

If a ban against burqa is simply an extension of a ban against wearing concealing headgear in the public, the cries of the religious group would be far softer I would imagine.

To target one specific religious group over another religious group is not something a secular state should aim for, nor can it even be called secular.

I mean what happens if they burqa is not used as a tool to oppress women? What happens where there are a number of women who are given a choice to wear it by their husband? What happens when a woman wears it because she likes it? All of a sudden women lacks a choice in what they can wear all because of religion as opposed to public safety concerns?

If anything, that is something that does not respect a woman's freedom to choose.

[Jade Falcon]

While I understand the concern of anonymity when it comes to women wearing the burqa or any person wearing any face covering in public, is there a record of them abusing this anonymity to commit crimes?

If not, then I would venture that the ban will only serve to pointlessly further divide Europeans and the Muslims living among them.

Not quite what you were talking about, but how about a case like this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6195581.stm

[D.Turtle]

ray, you are arguing the hypothetical vs reality.

Yes, hypothetically there could be women who like wearing burqas as an expression of their religiosity etc. Hypothetically, they could be given an honest choice about wearing one or not - without any pressure from their husbands/fathers/relatives.

In reality, how do you make sure that that is the case? Can you really say that they made a free choice when there is pressure from everyone they know to wear the damn thing? Do girls the age of FOUR choose to wear the things - or are they forced to?

Hell, there's even health reasons to ban the fucking thing (Vitamin D deficiency).

[ray245]

ray, you are arguing the hypothetical vs reality.

Yes, hypothetically there could be women who like wearing burqas as an expression of their religiosity etc. Hypothetically, they could be given an honest choice about wearing one or not - without any pressure from their husbands/fathers/relatives.

In reality, how do you make sure that that is the case? Can you really say that they made a free choice when there is pressure from everyone they know to wear the damn thing? Do girls the age of FOUR choose to wear the things - or are they forced to?

Hell, there's even health reasons to ban the fucking thing (Vitamin D deficiency).

Which is why I said expose girls from Islamic families to the fact that not everyone living in Denmark needs to wear the Burqa, and a good starting point would be banning all headgears in public schools.

This is freaking Denmark we are talking about here, not Saudi Arabia. The majority of the population down there aren't even Muslim.