Britains Express Trains to be Built by Japanese Firm.

[Big Orange]

Dey took er jerbs!

Anger over new UK trains contract

There has been anger over the government's decision to award a £7.5bn contract to build a fleet of inter-city trains to Japanese firm Hitachi.

The government said the contract for the "super express" trains would "create and safeguard" 12,500 UK jobs.

But the Conservatives said the transport secretary had not provided details to back up the jobs claim.

Unions have called for urgent talks with the government over how much of the work will be done in the UK.

The stock will replace ageing high-speed trains on the Great Western and East Coast main lines.

The consortium awarded the contract, called Agility Trains, is made up of John Laing, Hitachi and Barclays Bank.

The rival consortium which missed out included Bombardier, the only company making trains in the UK, which employs more than 2,000 workers at its Derby factory.

BBC transport correspondent Tom Symonds said the train would be assembled at a factory in Britain, in a location to be confirmed, and its engines made somewhere in Europe. The wheels will be made in Britain but its body shell will be made in Japan.

Evidence questioned

Transport Secretary Geoff Hoon described the plans as the single biggest investment in inter-city trains for a generation.

He said: "This announcement demonstrates that this government is prepared to invest, even in difficult economic times, by improving our national infrastructure.

"It is good news for the British economy that over 12,500 jobs will be created and safeguarded, good news for the regions that the government is supporting significant inward investment, and good news for passengers that we are taking the steps necessary to improve their rail journeys."

But Shadow Transport Secretary Theresa Villiers said the announcement was "typical spin" from the government.

"Only around 500, at most of the 12,500 jobs, announced today will be created in the UK by the train builder Hitachi and Labour have produced no convincing evidence to back up the rest of their claims on jobs.

"This announcement raises further questions about Gordon Brown's claims about British jobs for British workers. Geoff Hoon needs to stop the spin and tell the UK's hard pressed train manufacturing industry the real truth about his decision on replacing intercity trains."

Agility Trains said it was committed to spending 70% of the contract value in the UK, adding that Hitachi and John Laing expected to create 2,500 skilled engineering jobs in the UK, in train manufacturing, construction and maintenance.

The company added it was in talks with 20 UK suppliers, which would help safeguard jobs in the UK.

But Derby North Labour MP Bob Laxton said the decision was bad news for the area.

"This is a crass decision which gives the Japanese an opportunity of getting into the UK market. I don't believe for one moment the figure of 12,500 jobs because work will be brought into the UK from overseas," he said.

Unions have called for urgent talks with the government.

Keith Hazlewood of the GMB said: "We need to clarify what on earth is going on and how much work will be done in this country."

Bob Crow, general secretary of the Rail Maritime and Transport union, said: "The Transport Department has not answered the basic question of whether these trains will be manufactured in Britain or simply assembled here."

Mr Hoon also announced the Department for Transport was in advanced talks to provide 120 new carriages for the Stansted Express service from London Liverpool Street to Stansted Airport, the order for which is expected to go to Bombardier.

The first of the new trains - which are designed to be faster, greener and able to carry 21% more passengers - are scheduled to enter service on the East Coast mainline in 2013, and to be fully operational from 2015.

It is good news that they're finally going to revitalize the UK's rail network, but somewhat unfortunate that it is going out to a Japanese company, but however that said that serves Britain fucking right for dropping homegrown engineers and manufacturers like hot bricks, while falling way behind Japan and some European countries in railway infrastructure.

[Kanastrous]

Yes, my first question is, does Britain *have* the necessary people and expertise, to build brand new high-speed trains 100% in-country? When is the last time the British rail stock manufacturers did something like this?

[Dartzap]

Yes, my first question is, does Britain *have* the necessary people and expertise, to build brand new high-speed trains 100% in-country? When is the last time the British rail stock manufacturers did something like this?

30 odd years ago, or near enough. There was a smaller introduction of Voyager and Pendolinos a few years back, which were from Italy, as far as I know.

Annoyingly, these new ones wont get past Bristol, so we get stuck with the old Intercity ones (Not that bad, really. I prefer 'em to the Voyagers)

The worst trains currently in use down here are based on a British Layland bus design. They were so shit they got mothballed in the 70's but yet GWR had the nerve to bring them back recently to beef up the unit numbers, grr.

[Kanastrous]

I've very much enjoyed rides on the British inter-city lines (London/Oxford/Cambridge/Dover/Salisbury/Ipswich/Portsmouth/etc); IIRC the carriages were marked 'Breda/Italy...'

[Alferd Packer]

Yes, my first question is, does Britain *have* the necessary people and expertise, to build brand new high-speed trains 100% in-country? When is the last time the British rail stock manufacturers did something like this?

I would think the same thing. AFAIK, Britain's current rail is limited to 125 mph, which is attainable with relatively abundant rolling stock. Hell, the non-Acela NEC Amtrak trains can hit 125 MPH along certain sections of the NEC. It probably makes sense to have those most experienced with high-speed rail to design your rolling stock.

Besides, if you want to do high-speed rail right, you need to overhaul a lot existing track or lay down entirely new track. Either way, that'll create a lot of jobs.

[Ekiqa]

Britain DOES have the ability and capacity to manufacture entirely within the country. Bombardier owns a plant in Derby which is manufacturing equipment right now for the UK.

The 12,500 jobs number was pulled out of a hat, with the expection that one direct job created creates 4 more.

Also, almost the entire manufacturing of the new equipment will be done in Japan, with only final assembly and testing done in England, in a plant that is expected to employ around 200-500 people.

With Bombardier, some of the money spent will be recovered as income taxes, whereas the vast majority of the money will currently go to Japan.

[DaveJB]

As much as it sucks that the jobs are going to Japan, you have to admit that trains are something that the Japanese do very well.

[Big Orange]

With Bombardier, some of the money spent will be recovered as income taxes, whereas the vast majority of the money will currently go to Japan.

But absolute protectionism made the Great Depression worse, remember? And as infuriating as the situation is, the problems of outsourcing jobs and importing cheap labor has been ingrained into the British mode of business long before the current Recession/Depression hit - the Italian company moving in enmasse at Total Oil would've gone mostly unnoticed in "better" times.

[The Guid]

Well to be honest if these trains feel as good as another hitachi invention does, according to my fiance, then we'll all be screaming about how good it is - British made or not.

[Crown]

Unless the 'Japanese Firm' also manages, maintains and runs the new high speed trains I predict that they will just run slow, late or even; 'canceled due to signaling problems at the station where we had signaling problems 2 days ago that canceled your train, and most likely the station that will have signaling problems in four days time also canceling your train' ....


... Sorry, but British public transportation sucks major donkey balls for those of us that rely on it to get to work.

[Ekiqa]

... Sorry, but British public transportation sucks major donkey balls for those of us that rely on it to get to work.

It's because they "privatised" it. In fact, the government has more control over the railways than they did when it was nationalised.

[Crown]

... Sorry, but British public transportation sucks major donkey balls for those of us that rely on it to get to work.

It's because they "privatised" it. In fact, the government has more control over the railways than they did when it was nationalised.

Really? Do you have some source for this for my own edification?

[Dartzap]

... Sorry, but British public transportation sucks major donkey balls for those of us that rely on it to get to work.

It's because they "privatised" it. In fact, the government has more control over the railways than they did when it was nationalised.

Really? Do you have some source for this for my own edification?

Whilst I can't find the link at the moment, the Government currently puts billions more into the rail network on a yearly basis now that it did at any time when it was nationalised. Crazy as anything but true. I'll try and remember the phrasing I used the last time this popped up

[Crown]

Really? Do you have some source for this for my own edification?

Whilst I can't find the link at the moment, the Government currently puts billions more into the rail network on a yearly basis now that it did at any time when it was nationalised. Crazy as anything but true. I'll try and remember the phrasing I used the last time this popped up

I'm sure that the Government is pouring money into the infrastructure since I'm sure as shit sure the companies aren't, but the trains themselves are all run by different companies, right?

[bobalot]

I'm sure the government pays at least 2.5 times the annual subsidy to private operators than it did under government control. Apologists are quick to point out that the number of commuters have gone up 30%, they fail to mention the amount of rolling stock has only increased by 7% (They are simply cramming more people onto trains).

On top of that, the private operator Railtrack which owned the track, signals, tunnels, brides etc. failed to maintain the infrastructure. Railtrack really collapsed after the after the Hatfield crash in 2000. They had gotten rid of so many engineers and technical personal, they had no idea how many other crashes were waiting to happen. The government had to take over the company and $20 Billion dollars in debt.

So much for rail privatization.

[Sea Skimmer]

The British system is more then a bit ridiculous at this point, one Amtrack style government funded company owns and maintains the track, other companies own the trains, and then yet more companies lease those trains and actually runs them. It’s a wounder the things move at all, and from what some of our British members are saying, often they don’t.

[Dartzap]

It’s a wounder the things move at all, and from what some of our British members are saying, often they don’t.

I can't even remember the last time a train I was on was delayed. In fact, when I went up to London recently, it was 15 minute early!

Admittedly, I don't have to use 'em every day, so my apathy towards them isn't as a great as some of the others here. You could say that it teaches the younger generations patience

[Sea Skimmer]

I can't even remember the last time a train I was on was delayed. In fact, when I went up to London recently, it was 15 minute early!

Running early is not a good sign for commuter rail, especially not when it’s by that great a margin which can fuck someone over as much as a late train. I know, because it’s happened to me when I had to make tight connections between different kinds of public transport and the damn train left the station early even though it was supposed to wait to synchronize its schedule at that stop!

[Darth Tanner]

I can't even remember the last time a train I was on was delayed. In fact, when I went up to London recently, it was 15 minute early!

One of the big things the train operators did to fight delays was to change the schedules around so that trains were given more slack time in between stations. As a result trains may well slow down or even stop outside stations unnecessarily just to keep to the schedule. Also delays are only delays when arriving at the end of the line, meaning a train can catch up on itself by missing out stations its scheduled to stop at.

I have to admit I have my doubts whether this scheme will go anywhere. The government have announced new rail schemes several times before and they never get past the ‘ludicrously expensive’ planning stage. High speed rail plans like these usually fail because of the power of the airport lobby which would be threatened by actual high speed links between our cities. They can’t even decide whether electrifying track is a good idea or not.

Does anyone know any good websites that show national rankings of rail pricing? It would be interesting to see how we rank and if our rail system is more expensive to use than Zimbabwe’s.

[Hillary]

It’s a wounder the things move at all, and from what some of our British members are saying, often they don’t.

I can't even remember the last time a train I was on was delayed. In fact, when I went up to London recently, it was 15 minute early!

Admittedly, I don't have to use 'em every day, so my apathy towards them isn't as a great as some of the others here. You could say that it teaches the younger generations patience

I've travelled a lot on that line, Dartzap, and can only remember being seriously delayed once.

The train services are not as bad as they are painted in all honesty. It's part of the human condition that everyone remembers a bad train journey but never a smooth one.

The problems we do have are mainly down to an old (mostly Victorian) network and a serious lack of funding by successive governments over decades.

It's easy to blame the train operators, but they also inherited a clapped out system with clapped out rolling stock. At the time of privatisation, I worked for a company that won some of the franchises. The state of the railways and rolling stock was far worse than anyone had expected.

I have no doubt that many (including my own company) pushed the boundaries of reality in their bids, but the government was also clearly not straightforward in the information it provided. Hence, the franchises' business plans were fucked from the off - leading to the vast top up payments the government continues to make.

I'm not for one moment saying that privatisation of the railways was a "good thing" and it was certainly done in an ill-thought-out and rushed manner. However, trying to put the blame of the current system entirely on the privatisation is clearly unfair. For one, I'm old enough to have commuted on British Rail as it then was and things were not exactly a picnic then. For another, it is hard to imagine the government investing as much into the rail network if it was still state owned as it has been forced to do since it was privatised. Perverse, yes, but no less true.

[Zac Naloen]

I get the train every day for a 20 mile Commute.

If I get a delay it's usually for one of two reasons : - someone has killed themself. Something has fallen on the track.

It's very rare that we get inexplicable delays, there was a two week period where there was a signalling problem at paddington but that was probably decades old equipment and hasn't happened for a while now.

The prices have gone up considerably in the last three years, but I don't tend to experience the delays many say are regular occurences.

That's a FGW service, I can't speak for any of the other franchises of course.

[Big Orange]

It is strange why we have different fiefdoms for a railway network, that is a inherently inefficient set up that would lead to inconsistancies and squabbling. And while I'm sort of glad the contract is going to an overseas company that is good at what it does, it also shows how pathetic we are at directly manufacturing things mostly by ourselves and even the recent line of Minis is under the supervision of BMW, while Land Rover has been bought out by a Chinese company (although to be fair we've got waaaaay too many cars to begin with and car production is plummeting worldwide anyway).