Will Obama make change?

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Quetzalcoatl
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Will Obama make change?

Post by Quetzalcoatl »

Even a cursory glance through a few threads in this foum leaves little doubt as to where most Americans (and everybody else, if they could) will be ticking the ballet box in November. I'm no exception; Obama will get my vote.

But I think, even in these times where the choice seems so clear-cut, its good to look both ways. A lot of election threads on SDnet pretty quickly become McCain bash-fests. A lot of criticism (most of it, well deserved) is brought to bear against the Republican Party, but not so much the Democrats (at least not nearly to the same degree).

I suppose my point here is that not many people here have criticized Obama (though a few have admitted frustation about his gay-marriage position and occasional flip-flops). I'm not sure why this is. Are we afraid that if we analyze the candidate we admire, we will somehow hurt his chances?

I would like to take the oppurtunity to bring this other side of the issue, that is, criticism/concern about the Demorcratic campagin, to the attention of the Board. To get people talking, (or, more likely, yelling), I've attached a CNN commentary).
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Since Barack Obama incessantly makes the case that a John McCain administration would equate to another Bush term, it's worth looking at just how much Sen. Obama himself is in agreement with the unpopular president.

Does that mean that he, too, would be a repeat of President Bush? If one were to apply his logic, maybe so.

Here are 20 reasons why:

1. Abstinence: Bush expanded community-based abstinence education during his term, including a $28 million budget increase for 2009 in an effort to "Teach both abstinence and contraception to teens." Obama concurred in April when he said: "We want to make sure that, even as we are teaching responsible sexuality and we are teaching abstinence to children, that we are also making sure that they've got enough understanding about contraception."

2. Affirmative action: Bush said of the 2003 University of Michigan affirmative action case: "I strongly support diversity of all kinds, including racial diversity in higher education. But the method used by the University of Michigan to achieve this important goal is fundamentally flawed" -- because it depended solely on race. Bush has said other factors, such as socioeconomic status, should be considered, which would include poor white students.

Obama now agrees with that view. "Inside Higher Ed" referred in May to "Obama's suggestion that he may be ready to change the focus of affirmative action policies in higher education -- away from race to economic class. ... In his debate in Philadelphia with Hillary Clinton, he said in response to a question, that his own privileged daughters do not deserve affirmative action preferences, and that working-class students of all colors do."

3. Budgets: Obama voted for Bush's budgets, which included 19 spending bills.

4. Capital punishment: Like Bush, Obama supports capital punishment. He spoke out in opposition to the recent Supreme Court decision that denied the death penalty for child rapists. And in his 2006 memoir, Obama said, "I believe there are some crimes -- mass murder, the rape and murder of a child -- so heinous that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment."

5. Education: Obama supports charter schools, as does Bush, and merit pay for teachers, and he voted in favor of supporting the president's 21st Century Community Learning Centers.

6. Economics: Obama told reporters that he agreed with Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Bush's bailout package, then voted for the $700 billion plan. And despite routinely criticizing "the Bush tax cuts," Obama is now offering tax cuts of his own (although only for the 95 percent of taxpayers earning less than $250,000 a year). What a concept!

7. Energy: In signing the $12.3 billion Energy Policy Act of 2005, Bush said it "promotes dependable, affordable, and environmentally sound production and distribution of energy for America's future." Obama voted for the energy plan and called it a "first step toward decreasing America's dependence on foreign oil."

8. Faith-based initiatives/fatherhood: Bush is well known for his commitment to the faith-based community -- with initiatives for the poor and on fatherhood -- and he expanded the ability to allow faith-based providers a seat at the funding table. Obama, who has railed against Bush's efforts, has still found a way to embrace them, saying he would "expand" faith-based initiatives. He used his Father's Day speech to echo the president's Fatherhood Initiative.

9. FISA: Of the Senate bill passage that rewrote intelligence laws to grant immunity to telecommunications companies that participated in the Bush administration's wiretapping program, Bush said: "This vital intelligence bill will allow our national security professionals to quickly and effectively monitor the plans of terrorists outside the United States, while respecting the liberties of the American people."

Obama, who supported it, after opposing FISA last year, said: "Given the grave threats that we face, our national security agencies must have the capability to gather intelligence and track down terrorists before they strike, while respecting the rule of law and the privacy and civil liberties of the American people." Almost identical, huh? Are we sure they don't share the same speechwriter? But Obama did take heat for his change of heart, as The Washington Post reported that: "The Illinois senator's reversal on the issue has angered liberal groups." Guess you can't please everyone.

10. Gay marriage: Both Obama and Bush agree that marriage is and should remain between one man and one woman. As far back as 2004, Obama said: "Gays ... should not marry." And in a 2007 Senate debate, he said: "I agree with most Americans, with Democrats and Republicans, with Vice President Cheney, with over 2,000 religious leaders of all different beliefs, that decisions about marriage, as they always have, should be left to the states. ... Personally, I do believe that marriage is between a man and a woman."

11. Global AIDS: Obama has said the U.S. must "lead the global fight against the AIDS virus." And earlier this year, he encouraged lawmakers to "Use whatever works with AIDS, including teaching abstinence." Obama has given Bush kudos for his efforts to combat global AIDS and the record amount of funding ($15 billion over 5 years) the president has earmarked for the fight. Obama said in September, "I think President Bush -- and many of you here today -- have shown real leadership in the fight against HIV/AIDS."

12. Health care: While they don't share similar views on universal health care coverage, Bush and Obama agree that the problem with health care is "about affordability" and there is a need to address minority health concerns with more coverage and targeting. That is why Bush expanded community health care centers, covering the uninsured and targeting urban areas, to the tune of $1.5 billion for 1,200 centers "coast to coast."

13. Middle-class tax cuts: While he hasn't voted for such cuts, Obama is pushing his biggest economic initiative yet: tax cuts for the middle class. "We've got to help the middle class," Obama said Tuesday. Perhaps unbeknownst to him, Bush has already been there, done that. In signing the 2001 Tax Cut Bill, Bush said: "Tax relief is an achievement for families struggling to enter the middle class. For hard-working lower-income families, we have cut the bottom rate of federal income tax from 15 percent to 10 percent. We doubled the per-child tax credit to $1,000, and made it refundable. ... Tax relief is an achievement for middle-class families squeezed by high energy prices and credit card debt."

14. Minority homeownership: Obama adopted the Congressional Black Caucus principles "to increase minority homeownership" as it is "one of the best wealth-creation vehicles for minority families." These principles were developed as part of Bush's vision to expand minority homeownership to 5.5 million new homeowners by 2010. "Across our nation, every citizen, regardless of race, creed, color or place of birth, should have the opportunity to become a homeowner," Bush said.

Similar comparisons can be drawn for their positions on small businesses and on businesses owned by women and minorities.

15. National security: Obama voted yes on preauthorizing the much ballyhooed Patriot Act, sought by the Bush administration.

16. Offshore drilling: Bush has consistently pushed for drilling offshore, while Obama, who until recently opposed it, now says he's for it. In Nashville, Tennessee, he told an audience: "We're going to have to explore new ways to get more oil, and that includes offshore drilling."

17. Racial profiling: Obama's campaign literature states that he will call for a ban on racial profiling, even though Bush issued a directive that banned racial profiling in 2001. In his order, Bush said to the attorney general: "I hereby direct you to review the use by federal law enforcement authorities of race as a factor in conducting stops, searches and other investigative procedures. ... I further direct that you report back to me with your findings and recommendations for the improvement of the just and equal administration of our nation's laws."

18. Religion: It is widely known that Obama is a person of faith. He has said: "I am a proud Christian who believes deeply in Jesus Christ." Bush, who shares the same faith, has been just as much, if not more vocal, about his faith. He once told The Washington Times that he doesn't "see how you can be president without a relationship with the Lord."

19. Supreme Court ruling on gun ban: Despite his past endorsements of some gun control measures, Obama's reaction to the recent Supreme Court decision upholding the constitutional right of individuals to own handguns mirrors the administration's. Obama now says: "As a general principle, I believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear arms."

20. Welfare reform: An Obama ad this summer said he "passed a law to move people from welfare to work" and "slashed the rolls by 80 percent" (though all states had to as a result of the Clinton administration's mandate). Obama said in 2004: "Go into the collar counties around Chicago, and people will tell you they don't want their tax money wasted by a welfare agency." In 2003, Bush successfully called on Congress to reauthorize and expand on welfare reform efforts, "to make welfare even more focused on the well being of children and supportive of families."

So, although he has been ranked as the most liberal senator by the National Journal and obviously hasn't voted with Bush as often as Sen. McCain has -- based on his voting "record" -- Obama's "rhetoric" still sounds a lot like, well, Bush. McCain might want to take that into account the next time Obama talks about another Bush term.
Obviously some of this is bullshit, in particular the stuff about offshore drilling.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this post, but as you type a scathing response, please also try and think about any concerns or irritations you may have with Senator Obama as a candidate.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

Post by Ekiqa »

Is there really much difference between one or the other?

Obama is less ready to go to war, but it seems to me that the parties are very similar.

In Canada, the only real difference between the Conservatives and the Liberals, is that the Conservatives let their friends in the front door, while the Liberals let them in the back door.

I'd suspect it's the same in the US. Both parties bow to the wishes of big corporations, both have generally supported handing money to the biggest companies, both seem to be out of touch with the youth and the lower classes.

Sort of like elections in a Soviet system, you can vote for A or B, as long as they are both Soviets.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

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Yep. A massive investment in infrastructure, raising taxes on the richest, and introducing regulation, is identical to ever more tax cuts for the wealthiest, more deregulation, and increasing religion in life. They are completely alike.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

Post by Quetzalcoatl »

...criticism/concern about the Demorcratic campagin...
So sue me.

Yep. A massive investment in infrastructure, raising taxes on the richest, and introducing regulation, is identical to ever more tax cuts for the wealthiest, more deregulation, and increasing religion in life. They are completely alike.
I understand you are responding to Ekiqa here, but if I may...These are obivious differences and for me certainly constitute many of my reasons for voting Democrat. I don't think that the situation in Canada is at all applicable here.

But how about what I asked in the OP? What are the concerns/frustations with the Democratic campaign (dare we call it criticism?).
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Re: Will Obama make change?

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SirNitram wrote:Yep. A massive investment in infrastructure, raising taxes on the richest, and introducing regulation, is identical to ever more tax cuts for the wealthiest, more deregulation, and increasing religion in life. They are completely alike.
To be fair, I can see how someone could get that conclusion. Neither parties policies except the war have been given a proportionately large coverage by the media (sure, they get the 95% tax cuts, but what of the finer details?) and it could be all too easy for the person who depends on such outlets to have little to no idea what differences each party has regarding policy.

On the other hand, you would have to be a complete jack-ass not to go to his website if you were confused. :roll:
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Re: Will Obama make change?

Post by Quetzalcoatl »

BTW, Nitram, its great to see you posting again.
"Maybe next time a girl touches his scrote he won't jump and run away."
"Well Quetz doesn't seem like a complete desperate loser, and seems like an OK guy... almost to the point of being a try hard OK guy IMO "How dare you fondle my jewels young lady!"

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Re: Will Obama make change?

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Wow, that list is fucking hillarious. There's the obvious lies (apparently Bush hasn't been pushing abstinence only for seven years), the fake agreements (both of them have tax cuts plans, no need to examine how different they are). and the absurdely obvious agreements (both of them think AIDs is bad and health care is unaffordable). There is a legitimate argument that on many issues Republicans and Democrats share the same views and goals, and this list completely fails to examine it. But since it's CNN that's what is expected.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

Post by SirNitram »

Quetzalcoatl wrote:But how about what I asked in the OP? What are the concerns/frustations with the Democratic campaign (dare we call it criticism?).
Uh, yes, you can call it criticism. Duh.

Many of mine are simply that there's been no clear cut sign there's going to be reform from the people who will fuck it all up: Blue Dogs and others who will, all of a sudden, become PayGo born-agains and insist that not one red cent be added to the debt, a ridiculously unrealistic thing to do in this economic situation, with the needs for overhaul in so many areas.

The biggest criticism, of course, is that his healthcare is still anchored in the private market.

There are many lesser concerns: The continuing primacy of the truly absurd military-worship as the best method to resolve conflict, the fact many of these plans will not have sufficient support to go through without being ridiculously gimped, and so forth.

It is something, but not perfect.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

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The biggest criticism, of course, is that his healthcare is still anchored in the private market.
For me, this is the most frustrating issue. I wonder if Obama is just trying not to rock the boat (and actually would like semi-socialized healthcare) or is really aiming for more basic reforms of the existing system. His comments during the debate would indicate the latter, but all politicians have to 'play the game' to some extent.
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"Well Quetz doesn't seem like a complete desperate loser, and seems like an OK guy... almost to the point of being a try hard OK guy IMO "How dare you fondle my jewels young lady!"

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Re: Will Obama make change?

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Ok, maybe I'm really far off. But how much of his platform do you expect him to push through?
Politicians havae a habit of lieing to get elected. They put forth a wonderful platform, but once elected, only give token lip service to it.

Two years ago when the Democrats got control of the House of Representatives, was there a huge change in the voting? I don't recall hearing anything duringt the past two years that was REALLY different than the previous six. And before you say I'm an ignorant Canadian, the Canadian media shows a lot of what goes on in the US. We actually care about what does go on in our neighbour.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

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Ekiqa wrote:Ok, maybe I'm really far off. But how much of his platform do you expect him to push through?
Politicians havae a habit of lieing to get elected. They put forth a wonderful platform, but once elected, only give token lip service to it.

Two years ago when the Democrats got control of the House of Representatives, was there a huge change in the voting? I don't recall hearing anything duringt the past two years that was REALLY different than the previous six. And before you say I'm an ignorant Canadian, the Canadian media shows a lot of what goes on in the US. We actually care about what does go on in our neighbour.
Part of the problem with the present Congress is that, while Democrats now control both houses, their majorities are quite thin. There are enough Republican and Blue-Dog Democrats who can block any piece of legislation proposed by the more liberal elements in the body, and the majorities are by no means veto-proof.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

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Quetzalcoatl wrote:I suppose my point here is that not many people here have criticized Obama (though a few have admitted frustation about his gay-marriage position and occasional flip-flops). I'm not sure why this is. Are we afraid that if we analyze the candidate we admire, we will somehow hurt his chances?
Plenty of people have criticized Obama. No one is saying he's perfect; he's simply a damned sight better than the other guy. Do you really think all of us Canadians prefer Obama because we have some kind of agenda or because we've been somehow brainwashed into thinking he's Mr. Perfect? Given the Democratic Party's close ties to organized labour, a lot of Canadians are very concerned that the Democrats are likely to be more trade protectionist than the Republicans, which could hurt Canada's export business. That's our bottom line right there, and a Democrat victory in 2008 could hurt it.

And yet, we still mostly prefer Obama, because we think McCain/Palin is the BATSHIT INSANE ticket, and would be very dangerous for the entire world. You have a hot-tempered guy who thinks foreign policy is about who you like or dislike, matched up with a psycho who thinks the AntiChrist is coming soon and we all need to prepare, both of whom were shitty students in school and show no signs of becoming better learners as adults.

It's pretty sad that we live in such an anti-academic society that a person's horrendous performance in school is not even a tiny factor in a presidential run. The McCain/Palin ticket is the "too stupid for school" ticket, with Mr. "894th out of 899 students" and Mrs. "Struggled for years just to get a no-brain Communications degree". Is it too "elitist" now for someone to come out and say he prefers the more intelligent candidate?
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Re: Will Obama make change?

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Quetzalcoatl wrote:Will Obama make change?
I have no doubt that, were I to give Barack Obama a dollar bill, he could give me 4 quarters.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

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Ekiqa wrote:Ok, maybe I'm really far off. But how much of his platform do you expect him to push through?
Politicians havae a habit of lieing to get elected. They put forth a wonderful platform, but once elected, only give token lip service to it.

Two years ago when the Democrats got control of the House of Representatives, was there a huge change in the voting? I don't recall hearing anything duringt the past two years that was REALLY different than the previous six. And before you say I'm an ignorant Canadian, the Canadian media shows a lot of what goes on in the US. We actually care about what does go on in our neighbour.
The new GI Bill, opposed by McCain and Bush. How's that for groundbreaking, radical change?

Of course, if you were to enlighten yourself as to the spread of the votes and the procedures of the House and Senate, perhaps you'd make more headway in knowing why there was not radical change. Not to mention vetos.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

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Quetzalcoatl wrote:
Will Obama make change?

I have no doubt that, were I to give Barack Obama a dollar bill, he could give me 4 quarters.
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"Maybe next time a girl touches his scrote he won't jump and run away."
"Well Quetz doesn't seem like a complete desperate loser, and seems like an OK guy... almost to the point of being a try hard OK guy IMO "How dare you fondle my jewels young lady!"

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Re: Will Obama make change?

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Plenty of people have criticized Obama. No one is saying he's perfect; he's simply a damned sight better than the other guy.
I would agree with the latter but not the former. I've had to look hard on this forum to find people criticizing the Democratic party. Admittedly this is because they have not been acting like complete knuckle-knobs (all though they were kind of limp/innefectual until they regained a majority in '06).
Given the Democratic Party's close ties to organized labour, a lot of Canadians are very concerned that the Democrats are likely to be more trade protectionist than the Republicans, which could hurt Canada's export business. That's our bottom line right there, and a Democrat victory in 2008 could hurt it.
I admit I haven't even considered this issue. Embarassingly enough I've been more focused on the stupid peripheral issues a lot of people have thrown up to distinguish the parties.
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"Well Quetz doesn't seem like a complete desperate loser, and seems like an OK guy... almost to the point of being a try hard OK guy IMO "How dare you fondle my jewels young lady!"

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Re: Will Obama make change?

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SirNitram wrote:The new GI Bill, opposed by McCain and Bush. How's that for groundbreaking, radical change?

Of course, if you were to enlighten yourself as to the spread of the votes and the procedures of the House and Senate, perhaps you'd make more headway in knowing why there was not radical change. Not to mention vetos.
Well, forgive me for not trusting politicians as much as you do.

What of the latest budgets though? Giving tax cuts to corporations, while send the country further into debt?

While Obama seems very different from McCain, how different are his advisors and those who would make up his government?
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Re: Will Obama make change?

Post by Quetzalcoatl »

For anybody who didn't get that little joke about change:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f9lWeJQq_Y
"Maybe next time a girl touches his scrote he won't jump and run away."
"Well Quetz doesn't seem like a complete desperate loser, and seems like an OK guy... almost to the point of being a try hard OK guy IMO "How dare you fondle my jewels young lady!"

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Re: Will Obama make change?

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Ekiqa wrote:
SirNitram wrote:The new GI Bill, opposed by McCain and Bush. How's that for groundbreaking, radical change?

Of course, if you were to enlighten yourself as to the spread of the votes and the procedures of the House and Senate, perhaps you'd make more headway in knowing why there was not radical change. Not to mention vetos.
Well, forgive me for not trusting politicians as much as you do.

What of the latest budgets though? Giving tax cuts to corporations, while send the country further into debt?

While Obama seems very different from McCain, how different are his advisors and those who would make up his government?
You're believing the same bullshit about Obama/Kerry/Gore and McCain/Bush/Bush being two sides of the same coin. In their most fundamental beliefs Obama and McCain couldn't be any more different, and if you bothered to examine their platforms you'd see that. For example:

Healthcare - Obama has previously stated he would prefer a single-payer government run healthcare system, if he were starting from scratch (sort of like you have in Canuckia), but that since we already have an established healthcare system, we have to work within that infrastructure to cover everyone. McCain doesn't believe everyone should be covered, and wants to eliminate Medicare altogether.

Taxation - Obama wants to cut taxes to the middle class, while increasing taxes on the wealthiest 5%. McCain's plan is classic Voodoo Economics with its insane trickle down theory, cut taxes on the wealthiest and everyone benefits bullshit.

War in Iraq - Obama didn't want to go in the first place, and wants us out as soon as possible. McCain's wants to stay until we achieve a still undefined victory. That could be a week; it could be 100 years.

Economy - Obama's solutions for fixing this economic mess are focused primarily on helping out the middle class and those in financial trouble, such as people losing their homes to foreclosure. McCain's "plan" includes deregulation, tax cuts for corporations, and more deregulation.

These are just four areas where Obama and McCain are 180 degrees opposed to each other. Now, are you honestly suggesting that Obama is going to bring aboard advisers who support McCain's policies, and will be swayed by their arguments, or that McCain would do the same if he were elected? That's simply insane - the closest we got to such a thing in recent history was Clinton bringing David Gergen as an adviser, but every other adviser was a staunch liberal.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

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1. Abstinence: Bush expanded community-based abstinence education during his term, including a $28 million budget increase for 2009 in an effort to "Teach both abstinence and contraception to teens." Obama concurred in April when he said: "We want to make sure that, even as we are teaching responsible sexuality and we are teaching abstinence to children, that we are also making sure that they've got enough understanding about contraception."
I'd like to thank CNN for putting this part first. Thanks to this passage, I knew this entire article was a bunch of shit, and I didn't have to waste my time reading the rest of it.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

Post by Ekiqa »

RedImperator wrote:I'd like to thank CNN for putting this part first. Thanks to this passage, I knew this entire article was a bunch of shit, and I didn't have to waste my time reading the rest of it.
If you'd read the article, you'd understand that they put it in alphabetical order.
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Re: Will Obama make change?

Post by RedImperator »

Ekiqa wrote:
RedImperator wrote:I'd like to thank CNN for putting this part first. Thanks to this passage, I knew this entire article was a bunch of shit, and I didn't have to waste my time reading the rest of it.
If you'd read the article, you'd understand that they put it in alphabetical order.
Um...okay? So what? Who cares why they actually put it first? Do you have anything to add besides bizarre, pointless responses?
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Re: Will Obama make change?

Post by Ekiqa »

RedImperator wrote:
Ekiqa wrote:
RedImperator wrote:I'd like to thank CNN for putting this part first. Thanks to this passage, I knew this entire article was a bunch of shit, and I didn't have to waste my time reading the rest of it.
If you'd read the article, you'd understand that they put it in alphabetical order.
Um...okay? So what? Who cares why they actually put it first? Do you have anything to add besides bizarre, pointless responses?
Your preceding comment was blasting the article for putting abstinence first, as if that would make it a bunch of lies. They put it first because they decided to put some order in the article.

And why does the abstience make it a bunch of shit in the first place?
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Re: Will Obama make change?

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Ekiqa wrote: Your preceding comment was blasting the article for putting abstinence first, as if that would make it a bunch of lies. They put it first because they decided to put some order in the article.

And why does the abstience make it a bunch of shit in the first place?
The abstinence position makes it sound like Obama has a similar policy on sex education as Bush, which is complete bullshit (Obama favors sex education instead of the Bush "massive ignorance" policy). By putting it first, for whatever reason, the article is instantly exposed as distorting the facts and the positions held by Obama to any knowledgeable reader (i.e. Red).
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Re: Will Obama make change?

Post by Darth Wong »

Ekiqa wrote:And why does the abstience make it a bunch of shit in the first place?
If you're too stupid to figure out that there's a huge difference between "abstinence only" and "abstinence as part of a comprehensive sex education and contraception program", nobody can help you.

It's clear that the article is dishonest as hell, from the way it pretends the two are equivalent; the author clearly thinks that any sex education program which does not hide the idea of abstinence from students is equivalent to "abstinence only".
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