Boris Yeltsin is dead

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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

PeZook wrote:That's an interesting bit of recent history there, Stas.
I remember how the media here spinned Yeltsin and his actions. It sounded like he was the Second Coming of Russia, or something, but I was too young and not cynical enough to see through it.
I thought so too. Then towards the end of his rule I heard a lot of oligarches and how they robbed the state... coffers dry like the crusaders in the 4th Crusade...
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Ahhh Yeltsin.

Right place, right time...for too long.

Its a common factor through histroy that the man who may LEAD a revolution is completely unsuited to leading the country afterwards. Yeltsin is no exception.
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Post by Edi »

What I will say for him is that he admitted the wrongs committed against Finland and apologized (such as it was) for them, which is more than any other Soviet or Russian head of state has done. Otherwise, good riddance.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Edi wrote:What I will say for him is that he admitted the wrongs committed against Finland and apologized (such as it was) for them, which is more than any other Soviet or Russian head of state has done.
To be fair, Gorbie apologized to Germans and Putin - to Czechs. Though if you mean specifically Finland, then, yes. :) Frankly, the only thing he was worth for is offering apologies. But not for his own actions, of course...
Chris OFarrell wrote:Right place, right time...for too long.
I could understand if that were said of Gorbachov, but of Yeltsin? No fucking way.
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Post by Big Orange »

Stas Bush wrote: The Klan or Family as they're known:
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We all know that Yeltsin is "Number One" but who in this photo is "No. 2", "No. 3", "No. 4", "No. 5", "No. 6", "No. 7" and "No. 9"?
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Ok, in this line up who is "No. 1", "No. 2", "No. 3", "No. 4", "No. 5", "No. 6", "No. 7", "No. 9", "No. 10", "No. 11" and "No. 12"?
One of the terms on which Putin was allowed to take power from the Yeltsinist clique was that he would not prosecute (criminally) any member of it.
The recent assassination of an ex-FSB agent in London through radioactive isotope has some baring on this kind of political skulduggery that has permeated Russia in it’s recent history.
The "Family" today is wondering if it should put Yeltsin's grave in Russia - they fear desceration, too many Russians want to spit on his grave. Though, I bet they would put a several thousand dollar per month-guards around it so that people don't spit on the grave.
Putin seemed to be an incompetent rather than a tyrant of Stalin's calibre, although torching the parliament and killing practically everything in Chechyna is pretty bad...
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Post by K. A. Pital »

First photo:
1. Yeltsin. 2. Naina Yeltsina. 3. Valery Okulov. 4. Alexey Dyachenko. 5. Katya Okulova. 6. Elena Dyachenko. 7. Yeltsin Jr. 8. Maria Orlova. 9. Tatiana Dyachenko. (1996).
Second photo:
1. Andrey Vavra. 2. Svetlana Vavra. 3. Their son Nikita Vavra. 4. Mother of the groom. 5. Guardsman. 6. Groom - Oleg Deripaska. 7. Bride - Polina Yumasheva. 8. Yeltsin's granddaughter Katya Okulova. 9. Father of bride Valentin Yumashev. 10. Yeltsin's granddaughter Maria Okulova. 11. Tatiana Dyachenko - the bride of the bride's father. 12. Guard. (2000)
The recent assassination of an ex-FSB agent in London through radioactive isotope has some baring on this kind of political skulduggery that has permeated Russia in it’s recent history.
So? Political skullduggery? These people were deeply involved in criminal transactions and corruption. They deserve trial, not yearly $2 million grants from the Government and protection. Frankly, if any of them were killed instead of that useless Litvinenko, I'm sure most of Russians would have joy in it. Do you feel bad when known criminals are trialled?
Putin seemed to be an incompetent rather than a tyrant of Stalin's calibre, although torching the parliament and killing practically everything in Chechyna is pretty bad...
Putin? :? You meant to say Yeltsin. Not just "torched" the Parliament - he re-drafted the Constitution to give him power and make all other instutions meaningless rubberstamps, possibly even worse than during the USSR (at least in the USSR the Politbureau could remove the leader whom they didn't like (see Khrushev's downfall), but Yeltsin could NOT be removed by hte Parliament!!). As for Chechnya, the problem of Sharia jihadis there was quite the fault of Yeltsin. First 4 years he was doing nothing and allowing the radical islamist state to grow and ethnically cleanse Chechnya from Russians. Then he decided to retaliate - which he did in an utterly incompetent manner, and in the end Chechnya turned into a long-term bloodbath and a pit of crime, drugs and terrorism, which only now has calmed down a bit.
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Post by Big Orange »

Stas Bush wrote: Frankly, if any of them were killed instead of that useless Litvinenko, I'm sure most of Russians would have joy in it. Do you feel bad when known criminals are trialled?
Maybe Putin is in bed with those overpaid, greedy crooks as well? Although I do not know why Litvinenko was bumped off and whether his real enemies who did him in was Putin's lot or the Oligarchs.
Putin? :?
Of course I meant Yeltsin, but I don't think Putin is a good guy either even though he doesn't seem to be nowhere near as bumbling as his predecessor (but the UK media dubbed that Yeltsin brought Russia two steps towards democracy and Putin put it one step back).
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Big Orange wrote:Maybe Putin is in bed with those overpaid, greedy crooks as well? Although I do not know why Litvinenko was bumped off and whether his real enemies who did him in was Putin's lot or the Oligarchs.
Yes, he is. That's why I'm in the left-wing opposition to his regime. Though Russian left wing is also thoroughly corrupt, I mean the KPRF (read about the traitor Zyuganov below) and "Russia Just" (Spravedlivaya Rossia), a new Kremlin-created pet socialist party.
Big Orange wrote:Of course I meant Yeltsin, but I don't think Putin is a good guy either even though he doesn't seem to be nowhere near as bumbling as his predecessor (but the UK media dubbed that Yeltsin brought Russia two steps towards democracy and Putin put it one step back).
They can say whatever they want. All the Presidential authority, that is, the right to disband the Parliament, the Rubberstamp Duma, are all nothng but a consequence of 1993 when Yeltsin enshrined those Authorities in the law. This is when Russia ceased to be a Parliamentary Republic and became a Presidential Republic. And god I dislike Presidential Republics, because it's just another name for authocracy. Might as well keep Brezhnew alive if THAT's what they wanted Russia to look like.

Putin is different from Yeltsin. It's not that he's more autocratic, just that he cares more about his public image as a "tough" guy. Yeltsin just drank a lot and didn't give a SHIT about the people. But when he needed it, he shelled the Parliament. So Yeltsin and Putin aren't much different, I'd say Putin is even somewhat better because he at least tries to push for Russian national interest and put at least _some_ conservation for the robbery that is going on in the economy by the Oligarchat.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Another historical excourse by me, if you're interested.

Destruction of the USSR - Referendum, Gorbachov, Yeltsin and the Belovezha conspiracy

This story begins in 1991. Gorbachov is still the President of the USSR - a new, liberal USSR which allows elections, political movements and small business cooperatives, free speech and press, criticism of the Communist Party itself (just reading the old 89, 90, 91 newspapers, which lambasted our own country, shows that) - far more liberalized than, say, even today's China.

The 4th Congress of the People's Deputees of the USSR, citing the resolution of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR from 16 Jan 1991, puts a nationwide referendum - an unprecended act - to ask the citizens if they want to keep the USSR united? "Do you think it's necessary to maintain the USSR as a renewed federation of equal, sovereign Republics, which would fully grant rights and freedom for humans of all nationalities?"

During the referenda, which was ran on 17 March 1991, 80% of citizens took part, of which 76,4% voted to preserve the Union.

The local Soviet authorities of GruzSSR (Georgia), LatvSSR (Latvia), LitSSR (Lithuania), MoldSSR (Moldova), ArmSSR (Armenia), EstSSR (Estonia) have disallowed running the referenda in their lands and boycotted it. Because of this, the central electoral commisions were not created in these lands, and only several "oblast" which ran the referenda of their own initiative gave statistics:

Republic (country)_Took part in vote%_Of them answered "Yes"%
Georgia_________________96,3________________99,9
Moldova_________________83,3________________98,3
Latvia___________________65,1________________95,1
Armenia_________________72,1________________71,6
Estonia__________________74,2________________95,0


Now for a time being let's leave the wishes of our common citizenry and move to the 90's and see Yeltsin acting, in a time of crisis in the Government - Yeltsin wants to seize power in the RSFSR, and local governments in the other Republics wish to do it as well, to dismember the Union and take power.

The start of the demolition was put forth during the "war of laws", when Yeltsin and the Yeltsin-led Supreme Council of the RSFSR started defying the overall laws of the USSR - to destroy the power of Gorbachov as the leader. The dogs already feel the blood - on the conference with republican leaders in Novo-Ogarevo devoted to the formation of a new Union treaty, Yeltsin has defied Gorbachov and personally put down in the project of the New Union Treaty the proposition that all republics are free to pay taxes to the Union "as much as they want to" - to leave Gorbachov and the Soviet government without financial support, but to concentrate all wealth of Republics in the hands of greedy nationalists which led the Republican administrations.

Yeltsin has already decided that Gorbachov - the leader of the Union, and the person who helped Yeltsin to rise as the RSFSR leader, is nothing but a waste - just as he will destroy the Union, so will he destroy Gorbachov the leader. All the scheming and preparation for the destruction of USSR

The failure of Gorbachov to stop the self-willed acts of separatism-intended leaders of the Republics, in Novo-Ogarevo, provoked the Putch of 1991 - the GKCHP. After those events, which were done by Gorbachov's team, he lost all of his closest allies - in the critical moment, they were in the Matrosskaya tishina prison. A new team of Gorbachov was not formed quickly enough, while Yeltsin, seeing how Silaev and Yavlinsky and others were moving to Gorbachov's side, have acted even faster to commence their plans to dismember the USSR.

Gorbachov makes a fatal mistake once again - he gives the post of Minister of Defense to Marshall Shaposhnikov, who later became a traitor and took the side of the Belovezha Putchists. This error is not unlike Allende's decision to make Pinochet the General of Chilean Army 11 days prior to a fascist putch, and Gorbachov - the last Soviet liberal - was following Allende's doomed footsteps.

In his memoirs "The President Notes" Yeltsin openly writes, that in secret from the people, and from the government, he and his closest allies were preparing the forcible dissolution of the USSR. He mentions that the "conspirators" included Burbulis, Shakhrai, Gaidar, Kozyrev, Ilyushin. 7th December 1991, Yeltsin, accompanied by Burbulis, Shakhrai, Poltoranin and Kozyrev flies to Minsk with a firm intent to bring about the end of the Soviet Union. The goal of the trip is kept secret even from his closest surrounding, as he wrote in the memoirs, those people do not yet know that Yeltsin plans to do the horrible.

Yeltsin decides to use the invitation of the then-leader of Belorussia Shushkevich to hunt in the Belovezha forest to make a secret denunciation of the USSR with Shushkevich and the then-leader of Ukraine Leonid Kravchuk. Yeltsin has informed Shushkevich that Gorbachov has "to know NOTHING about this little hunt". Belovezhie was close to the Polish border - the location was selected in case Gorbachov will somehow know about the conspiracy and treason, and decides to act. Yeltsin kept contacts with the U.S. Embassy, to be able to flee in case his plot is uncovered.

Shushkevich himself did not know what Yeltsin planned. Yeltsin and his guards made Shushkevich drunk, then asked him to sign the document which was the doom of the USSR. Shushkevich agreed. It must be noted that the "vodka metod" of Yeltsinist criminals was used many times over - when making alliances, taking over the Soviet generals and making them sign allegiance to Yeltsin when drunk.

According to Gorbachov's press secretary Andrey Grachov, Kravchuk, the leader of Ukrain, likewise did not know what Yeltsin planned to do, but had two options - the Novo-Ogarevo Treaty and the dissolution. When Yeltsin pressed on him, Kravchuck agreed to sign the Belovezha accord.

Gorbachov was informed about this Putch the last. Yeltsin phoned only to the U.S. President BUSH and then to US Secretary of State James Baker. He did not intend to inform Gorbachov at all. Only thanks to the drunk Belorussian leader Shushkevich Gorbachov knew the horrible truth - Shushkevich called and gave out everything. He cried into the telephone with a drunk voice, Gorbachov's secretary recalls. Gorbachov was informed moments later that Marshall Shaposhnikov commited treason and supports the Belovezha putch.

Only in the second half of December 1991 the Media informed the citizens that in Viskuli, an accord has been signed which means the dissolution of the USSR. No details have been given.

The "war of laws" quickly destroyed anything which gave hope to the saving of USSR. The Supreme Soviet under Yeltsin's rubberstamp immediately took the accords as "legitimate" (they were not), to remove any potential rivals from teh Supreme Soviet of USSR. The laws of the RSFSR gave no authority for the Deputees to make such decisions, but this didn't stop Yeltsin. Several deputees have said that this is against the laws of both USSR and RSFSR, but it was a cry in the desert.

The conspiracy triumphs
Anatoly Sazonov, Gorbachov's advisor wrote:I must tell that while I was the advisor of Gorbachov, I have repeatedly advised him to run the State Soviet Conferences, the Soviet of hte Federation conferences with a nationwide translation, so that the Nation can judge the elected Deputees and what they are saying. I wrote him notes about this, and Shakhnazarov supported me. And finally we started translating the Soviet meetings.

This has extraordinarily scared Yeltsin and Kravchuk, they were trembling and said, that they will leave the Soviet conferences if we continue to translate it to the nation.

[...]

I reported to Gorbachov on the eve of this event:
- Mikhail Sergeevich, the situation is the following: Burbulis, Shakhrai and other from the Kravchuk-Shushkevich clique are making up articles for some Treaty. Yeltsin, Kravchuch and Shuskevich discuss them with Fokin and Kebich. If they approve of some article, the immediately drink vodka.
- What is the main idea of this treaty?
- The main idea is that in this document, there is no place for Soviet power and the President of USSR. They wrote down: "The activity of the organs of the former USSR... stops comletely"
- What should we do? - asked Gorbachov after a pause.
- Two-three planes. Your command. Lift the "Alpha". The conspirators will be arrested in a moment. In the morning you should inform the Soviet people: "They plotted to destroy the USSR against your will. In March you voted to preserve it. What should we do with them? Judge with a national tribunal?". I am sure after such a speech the people will support you, just to save the Union.
- Anatoliy, you know, I cannot...
- If you can't, you'll be in "Matrosskaya Tishina" tomorrow. The leaders of other Republics will assemble to respond to the Belovezha plot and the country will fall apart...
- Well, good. Good bye - said Gorbachov and hanged.
It was the last night of the existense of a great union, the USSR.
After the accords, the drunk Yeltsin gives out Russian-built and owned assets to the Republics for free, while bathing in rivers and lakes on the dachas of the to-be-oligarchs, where he got drunk, misbehaved and didn't even care the least about what was happening to Russia and other Soviet republics. Paparazzi photos from there have shown the full extent of his downfall:
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Gorbachov, after the accords wrote:After they issued those Belovezha accords, I made a public statement, that three people cannot, by secretly gathering somehwere in the forest, to make decisions to destroy this country. The country for which our ancestors laid our lives. And I made propositions, to the Supreme Soviets of the Republics, a new Soviet Treaty, to make corrections and perhaps even take something from the Belovezha... but never forget about hte All-Union referenda, where the nation voted to preserve the Union.

But instead of that they put only the Belovezha accord on the votes, and only 3 deputees in Ukraine voted against them. In Belorussia, only one - Lukashenko, in Russia - three were abstaining and three were against. Zyuganov voted "yes" on the request of Khazbulatov. Watch the TV records!
12 December Gorbachov met the press and said:
Gorbachov, 12 December 1991 wrote:If all Republics will support these accords, I will have to step down. As the President I will respect the will of those representatives... But there was a referenda on 17 March, we are going against the will of the people... We're destroying the State, instead of reforming it... I just wanted to make the people more free, and I think I have fulfilled my task. But... even Jesus did not see judas, and I'm not Jesus. [...] They cut it like a pie [the Union], cut it with a knife, then a drink and some food...
On 8th December, the greatest plot in Soviet history concluded. On the eve of 1992, it was irreversible.

The Afterword and Aftermath
The leaders of the newly "independent" states started plundering them like mad, sending into a spiral of misery, banditism, murder and death. The leaders of Georgia and Tajikistan have paid for their greed even less than in a year, the leaders of Belorussia, Ukraine, Armenia and Baltics managed to hold a bit longer, but were ousted too, others managed to hold their power. One of them through a bloody supression and breach of constitution has held and strengthened his authoritarian power, when the leaders of Belorus and Ukraine chose to step down according to the will of the people. It was Boris Yeltsin in 1993.
Belarus soon elected Lukashenko - the only man whom the people could trust to stop the reforms and return socialism.
Ukraine elected another plunderer, which led to the Orange Revolution - a war between corrupt officials and other corrupt officials for the Throne of Ukraine. Today Ukraine is facing a crisis similar to 1993. I wonder if Yushenko will shell the Parliament if it defies him openly.

Bloodless disssolution?
Today some of the liars think the dissolution was a "bloodless act". Some are smarter than others, they add "relatively" bloodless. This word changes little. Nagorno-Kharabach, Moldova, Ukraine, Abkhazia, South Osetia - all those small wars were not "bloodless", they were bloody. With horrible atrocities. And the ethnic cleansing in Chechnya, which later grew into a bloody, atrocity-filled war against a Sharia state.

The will of the People - was the Referenda of 1991 to preserve the USSR true?
From social polls done by the FOM.

Belovezha - 10 years later
SOME BELIEVE THAT THE USSR COLLAPSED DUE TO THE POLICY FOLLOWED BY LEADERS, WHILE OTHERS HOLD THAT THE SOVIET UNION BROKE APART FOR PURELY OBJECTIVE REASONS. WHICH OF THESE TWO VIEWS ARE YOU MOST LIKELY TO AGREE WITH?
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WAS IT POSSIBLE TO MAINTAIN THE USSR OR NOT?
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DO YOU REGRET THE BREAKDOWN OF THE SOVIET UNION?
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OPEN-ENDED QUESTION: WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER NOW FROM YOUR LIFE IN THE USSR AS POSITIVE AND GOOD?
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See the full study for the open answers to the open-ended questions.

OPEN-ENDED QUESTION: PLEASE REMEMBER HOW YOU REACTED TO THE BELOVEZHSK AGREEMENTS. WHAT WERE YOUR FIRST IMPRESSIONS AND FEELINGS?
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From the 2006 study - Belovezha 15 years later
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Do you think the majority of people in Russia in 1991 were rejoicing the Belovezha, or dissapointed, or took it without any emotion?
1 - joy 2 - neutral 3 - dissapointment/grief 4 - no answer

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A graphic which shows the public's regret over the USSR.

Blue - regret, green - don't regret, red - decline to answer. Note how the regret never falls below 60 percent.

Hope it was interesting!
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Post by Zed Snardbody »

Indeed. I fancy myself a student of history, its been a long time since I've been exposed to something I knew absolutely nothing about prior.

With the damage that has been done to the economy, infrastructure, and moral of the people in general, can Russia recover in the near future?

What are the chances of a complete or partial restoration of the Union?

Damn, I'm struck by the sudden urge to whip out the university course catalog now.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Thank you for enlightening me, Stas, now I know why my grandfather looked so happy the day he found out about it.
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Post by brianeyci »

I had neutral or positive feelings about Yeltsin, until I saw a documentary about how he and the oligarchs split up the USSR. What's surprising is the gall of those oligarchs. When interviewed, the lead one was not apologetic about the suffering he caused at all. The USSR was broken apart by the Russian equivalent Fox News and a small group of men who carved up Russian industries like birthday cake. The man who could have stopped it was in on it, fucking and drinking and raking in the money: Yeltsin.

If there's one good thing about Putin, it's that he was charismatic enough to crush the oligarchs baldfaced lying media juggernaut and told the oligarchs to fuck off. And then some, arrested a few like criminals.
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Post by Mange »

Stas Bush wrote:"Defender of democracy" - a brutal thug who shelled the parliament doesn't dare to bear this name, even Gorbachov has more right to it than Yeltsin. May you never rest in peace, plunderer.
What should he had done then when they staged a coup? And before that, should the Soviet Union, which hindered the economical development of the Baltic states and other republics for over forty years, have stayed in existence? While some poor choices were made in the beginning after the dissolution (most notably in regards to the oligarchs), what can you expect after so many years of mismanagement? What sort of experience were there?

Despite his faults, Yeltsin took the right step and dissolved a state which had an economical and political system which will be remembered as the most inefficient (and tyrannical) experiment of the 20th Century.
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Post by brianeyci »

Mange, the oligarchs were not an afterthought by Yeltsin.

The oligarchs were Yeltsin's puppet masters. They orchestrated the whole thing, and caused widespread suffering. It was big business running the country until Putin took over. Crow about tyrrany all you like, but better full stomachs and "tyrrany" than starving masses. And of course there are better ways to liberalize. Yeltsin certainly did not do the right thing.

You're asking a bunch of rhetorical questions rather than making an argument. Why don't you make a definitive statement about Yeltsin so someone can post a rebuttal, rather than an open ended question. What should Yeltsin have done? Who the fuck cares, we know what he did and it was wrong. If Stas Bush doesn't have an answer with a better way doesn't exonerate Yeltsin.
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Post by Mange »

brianeyci wrote:Mange, the oligarchs were not an afterthought by Yeltsin.

The oligarchs were Yeltsin's puppet masters. They orchestrated the whole thing, and caused widespread suffering. It was big business running the country until Putin took over. Crow about tyrrany all you like, but better full stomachs and "tyrrany" than starving masses. And of course there are better ways to liberalize. Yeltsin certainly did not do the right thing.

You're asking a bunch of rhetorical questions rather than making an argument. Why don't you make a definitive statement about Yeltsin so someone can post a rebuttal, rather than an open ended question. What should Yeltsin have done? Who the fuck cares, we know what he did and it was wrong. If Stas Bush doesn't have an answer with a better way doesn't exonerate Yeltsin.
I wasn't questioning the fact that there were far better ways to liberalize the country, but again, what sort of experience were there in handling a market economy, what sort of domestic capital (not controlled by the state) etc. were there? And tyranny and starving masses, what do you call the situation during the forced collectivization (the Holodomor as it's known in the Ukraine) in the early '30s? (With 'tyranny' I wasn't only referring to the last veining years of the Soviet state, but its entire history.) Blame Yeltsin for all you want, I blame the Communist morons who financially and politically ruined the country.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

[quote='Mange"]What should he had done then when they staged a coup?[/quote]
Yeltsin was the coupist. 21 Sep 1993 he issued Order #1400 in which he "disbanded" the Commitee of Deputees (Duma) and the Supreme Council, for which he had no Constitutional rights. Essentially he crapped all over the Russian constitution. Just like he crapped over the Russian and CIS economy.
And before that, should the Soviet Union, which hindered the economical development of the Baltic states and other republics for over forty years, have stayed in existence?
The Soviet Union was already on the path to a mixed economy with Gorbachov. Gorbachov planned a 25-30 year slow creation of private sector, a-la China or Belarus. Forcibly severing the deep economic ties between the Republics made it a catastrophy. Besides, the separation of the Baltics could've been tolerated and the Union could've persevered, Gorbachov had plans for such an action.
While some poor choices were made in the beginning after the dissolution (most notably in regards to the oligarchs), what can you expect after so many years of mismanagement?
Ask the people. Most of them, according to the FOM, think that they had a better life level under the USSR and regret about it's forcible destruction. And who will answer for the social and economic effects during the Yeltsinist rule in Russia alone, for putting millions of people in hunger, dozens of thousands dying yearly from banditism? I don't know where have you been when the Union was destroyed, but I was here in Russia. I don't know where you had been when the Russian provinces were full of people in hunger during 1993 and 1998, but I was here. And frankly, we had this discussion already. Behind me are the bulk of statistics of the "democratic" Russia (not the USSR, but Russia from 1991 onwards - the decline was a slow downfall, and you could see it very well even through the "democratic" years alone) and the people's clear opinion expressed above in the FOM polls. Behind you - your own perceptions, and you weren't even here when it happened.
Despite his faults, Yeltsin took the right step and dissolved a state which had an economical and political system which will be remembered as the most inefficient (and tyrannical) experiment of the 20th Century.
I don't know what you think out there about Yeltsin, perhaps the Cold War has totally warped your perception of us as "evil Russkies", but most of the people here still long for the achievments of the USSR, so certainly if Yeltsin' "will be remembered", it will be outside Russia. And Khrushev's or Brezhnew's autocracy was nothing even close to some of the regimes of both the XX and XXI century. Gorbachov's USSR was a left-liberal state already, the process of political liberalization and economic liberalization have been going on.

I will not waste my time explaining quite obvious things - people who disbanded the USSR were profoundly evil and caused enormous suffering on a nationwide scale, they did not care for the fate of Russia and their economic reforms had the goal of personal enrichment, not the embetterment of the people's lifes.
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Post by PeZook »

Mange wrote:Despite his faults, Yeltsin took the right step and dissolved a state which had an economical and political system which will be remembered as the most inefficient (and tyrannical) experiment of the 20th Century.
No, Gorbachev dissolved this state. His USSR was very liberal, and that was the right path to take - slow change, rather than collapse which allowed various corrupt businessmen and ex-security agents to set up their own little thugocracy. We are seeing a similar mechanism in Poland, too, though due to graduality of the change we managed to maintain our infrastructure and standards of living, for the most part.
Zed Snardboy wrote:With the damage that has been done to the economy, infrastructure, and moral of the people in general, can Russia recover in the near future?
Depends what "near future" means. Russia will last, and will recover eventually - history has shown that countries of this size rise and fall in cycles, and it's especially true for Russia.
Zed Snardboy wrote:What are the chances of a complete or partial restoration of the Union?
Insignificant. Former Union countries seem happy as they are right now. What we may be seeing could be an economic alliance of some sorts, but nothing like the former USSR, with governmental and military ties as well.
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Post by brianeyci »

Mange wrote:I wasn't questioning the fact that there were far better ways to liberalize the country, but again, what sort of experience were there in handling a market economy, what sort of domestic capital (not controlled by the state) etc. were there? And tyranny and starving masses, what do you call the situation during the forced collectivization (the Holodomor as it's known in the Ukraine) in the early '30s? (With 'tyranny' I wasn't only referring to the last veining years of the Soviet state, but its entire history.) Blame Yeltsin for all you want, I blame the Communist morons who financially and politically ruined the country.
Guy, you're going to go back to Stalin? :roll:

You're screeching red scare like some McCarthyist loon. Fact: a small group of men carved up the Soviet empire for themselves. Fact: they financed Yeltsin's political ascension, and generals and politicians were explicitly told to listen to the oligarchs or they'd be booted. Fact: the big media machine used to do this would make Fox News cream themselves with envy. And the whole point of Stas Bush bringing up the polling data is another fact: the people of the USSR didn't want the USSR broken up. Blaming the reds for Yeltsin's actions is pretty fucking stupid.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

I wasn't questioning the fact that there were far better ways to liberalize the country, but again, what sort of experience were there in handling a market economy, what sort of domestic capital (not controlled by the state) etc. were there?
If you just skipped your history class, the perestroika which was a slow creation of a market sector for light industry, started in 1985.
And tyranny and starving masses, what do you call the situation during the forced collectivization (the Holodomor as it's known in the Ukraine)
in the early '30s?
And why the fuck do you decide to take the USSR's history in full, but you're a bit shy to do that for the capitalist British Empire? Bengal Famine? Bangladesh 1974 famine? Or, perhaps, you like the United States, which was responsible for, along with Britain, the death of millions of slaves - after all, I'm speaking about the entire history of their CONTINOUS GOVERNMENTS.
Blame Yeltsin for all you want, I blame the Communist morons who financially and politically ruined the country.
"Communist morons" have created a second world life level. "Yeltsin" and his likes just pushed those 2nd world states to the Third World. Your ignorance is staggering.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Guy, you're going to go back to Stalin?
Yeah, why not go back to Churchill and his treatment of Britain's colonies! :lol:
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Post by PeZook »

Stas Bush wrote: "Communist morons" have created a second world life level. "Yeltsin" and his likes just pushed those 2nd world states to the Third World. Your ignorance is staggering.
Don't forget various scientific achievements ; XIXth century Russia was mostly a rural country, lagging behind badly with industrialization, and stuck in the feudal age for the most part. From 1917-1939 you were looking at industrialization going at an incredible rate, basically going from a poor rural country to a world superpower in a few decades. This is discounting horrors of the Revolution and Stalinist repressions, but to be honest - Stalin wasn't much worse than some tzars before him, some of which were certified class A maniacs. The difference was of scale.

From the 1950s onward, the USSR was responsible for a lot of scientific achievements, and still has some of the best nuclear scientists in the world.

And let's not forget who was one of the two countries to partake in the space race.

Portraying communist government of the USSR in a completely negative or completely positive way is gross oversimplification of a very complicated matter.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Portraying communist government of the USSR in a completely negative or completely positive way is gross oversimplification of a very complicated matter.
Exactly, I'm all in agreement here - and nice to see it from a person who used to live in a socialist country too. Just as any government of a large and powerful country have good and bad sides, you could say the same about British Empire, or the United States.
This is discounting horrors of the Revolution and Stalinist repressions, but to be honest - Stalin wasn't much worse than some tzars before him, some of which were certified class A maniacs.
In fact, Stalin was better than the Czars, at least in what amounted to education of own population. Here's a document I recently translated for Stuart's work on TBO, but I think it would be interesting in the context of this discussion - especially as it is not the USSR's own view, but the view of Germans who were hellbent on murdering the people of hte USSR and thought them to be "untermensh":
From the analytical report, delivered to the local SS and SD departments
Bundesarchiv Koblenz. Reichssicherheitshauptamt. R 52/182. Meldungen aus dem Reich Nr. 376. 15.4.43. S. 8-17. wrote:(excepts) THE HEAD OF THE GESTAPO AND SD. IIIrd Directorate. Berlin. 17 Aug. 1942. SV II, Prinz-Albertstrasse, 8.
Secret! Personal. Report immediately!

II. The impression of the population about Russia. [...]

The first ostarbeiter (eastern workers, the Soviet deportees to Germany to be used as workforce) echelons already caused wonders among the Germans because of the good nutritional state (especially of the civilian workers). Often the following could be heard:

"They don't look as if they're in hunger. On the contrary, they are looking fat and must've lived pretty good".

The head of one of the state health departments after surveying the ostarbeiters reported: "I am amazed by the good looks of the eastern worker women. The biggest wonder were the teeth, since I have not yet encountered a single case where a Russian woman would have bad teeth. Unlike us Germans, they must be paying lots of attention to keeping their teeth in good condition".

[...] Earlier a major part of the German population was thinking that people in the USSR are marked by illiteracy and low education levels. The use of ostarbeiters has spawned contradictions, which often confuse our Germans. For example, from all local reports we receive the information that illiterate people constitute only a very small percent. In a letter from a certified engineer, who was administrating a factory in the Ukraine, for example, it was reported that only 3 of his 1800 workers were illiterate (Reichenberg). The same conclusions follow from the other local reports.

"According to the opinion of many Germans, the current Soviet school education is significantly superior to the Tsarist times"

"The comparison between the mastery of german and russian agriculture workers often is not in the favour of germans" (Stettin)

"Particulary wondering was the widespread knowledge of German language, which is studied widely even in village elementary schools" (Frankfurt-on-Oder)

"A student from Leningrad has studied German and Russian literature, she can play the piano and knows many languages, including fluent spoken German" (Breslau)

"I have almost humiliated myself, reported one apprentice, when I gave the Russian a small arithmetic task. I had to concentrate all my knowledge not to fall behind his speed..." (Bremen)

"Many think that Bolshevism has led Russians out of narrow-mindedness" (Berlin)

[...] The destruction of the Russian intelligents and the fooling of the masses were an important part in explaining Bolshevism. In the German propaganda the Soviet people were presented as stupid exploited beings, as "working cattle".

Today the German worker on the basis of the work of the ostarbeiters and their mastery is daily convinced of the exact opposite. In many agenture reports we are infromed that the ostarbeiters directed to military industry have in fact baffled the German workers with their technical knowledge (Bremen, Reichenberg, Stetting, Frankfurt-o.-O., Berlin, Halle, Dortmund, Kiel, Breslau, Beireut)

One of the workers from Beireut said: "Our propaganda always presents Russians as stupid and dumb. But here I have witnessed the opposite. During the work Russians always think and never look dumb. I better have two Russians at work than five Italians"

In many reports it's noted that the worker from former Soviet regions professes a particulary high level of knowledge in all technical machinery. The Germans have had much experience, which has proven that the ostarbeiter, who can use the most primitive tools in work, can easily remove any type of breakdown in engines, etc. Various examples of this have been presented in a report from Frankfurt (o.O.): "In one estate a Soviet POW has easily understood an engine which German specialists did not know wnat to do with: in a very short time he had it running and then found out a damage in the transmission of the tractor which has not even been noticed by the Germans who maintained the tractor".

In Landsberd-on-Varta german brigadiers have instructed Soviet POWs, most of whom were village citizens, on the procedure of machine part unloading. But this instructions were not accepted by the Russians, and they have not followed it. They have done the unloading a lot faster and technically practical, and the german workers were amazed by their mastery.

A director of one flax spinning factory (Glagau) said the following on ostarbeiters: "The ostarbeiters directed here immediately show technical knoweldege and require not any longer training than the germans". Ostarbeiters can "from various rubbish" manufacture spoons, knives, etc. In one of the matting manufactures we received a report that machinery which long required a repair was set up running by easy repairs from ostarbeiters. And it was done so well as if it was a specialists' repair.

From a large number of students between the ostarbeiters the German population concludes that the level of education in the USSR is not low as our propaganda has claimed. German workers who had the chance to witness the technical mastery of ostarbeiters, most likely think that not the best of Russians are getting into Germany, since the Bolsheviks have evacuated the most qualified workers into the Urals, but even those Russian aren't sub-par in anything, or almost anything, to a German. In all these facts Germans find the explanation for the enormous amount of weaponry that we were reported about in the course of the Eastern campaign. The mere number of good and complex weaponry means that there are many highly qualified engineers and specialists. People who worked on the achievements of the USSR in this sphere much have undeniable technical prowess.

[...] An exceptional part in the propaganda was devoted to the GPU. Especially good results on the German impression were produced by the tales about forced labour expulsions in Siberia and shooting executions.

German enterpreneurs and workers alike were quite baffled when the German labour front (NSDAP union organization) has repeatedly pointed out that between the ostarbeiters none are found who had been repressed in their homeland. What concerns the violent methods of the GPU, which our propaganda hoped to confirm at large, we have, to common wonder, found not a single case in the major labour camps, where the relatives of ostarbeiters were forcibly exiled, arrested or shot. A part of the population is already expressing skepticism on this matter and thinks that the situation with repression and terror in the USSR is not as bad as we have always stated, like that the actions of the GPU are the main determinant of life in the Soviet Union, what people earlier thought. [...] Especially concerned the Germans are about the problem of the Red Army might, which, with quantity and quality of weapons was a great surprise. Until now the perseverance in battle was expained by the fear of the gun of the kommisar and politruk. Sometimes we have explained the disregard for life as an animal trait, which is common for eastern peoples. But again and again people suspect that brute violence is not enough to cause such selfless action in battle.

In various ways people arrive at the conclusion that bolshevism has led to the creation of a somewhat fanatical faith. In the USSR, possibly, many people, especially the younger generation, are of the opinion that Stalin is a great politician. At the very least, bolshevism, irrelevant how, has made the absolute majority of Russians uncompromising perseverance. It were our soldiers who have found out that such organized fervor in resistance have never been encountered in the first World War. It's possible that the people in the east are quite different from us in racial-national relation, but behind the enemy's war power stand the same qualities, such as a certain love for homeland, a certain courage and battle camaraderie, which the Japanese also exhibit in uncommon ways, but must be acknowledged.

Because of such observations, which are shown in local reports, the impression of the USSR and it's people have significanly changed. All these personal observations, which contradict directly the former propaganda, create a lot of thoughts. In places where anti-bolshevik propaganda is using the old and known arguments, it no longer encounters any interest or faith from the people.

(Bundesarchiv Koblenz. Reichssicherheitshauptamt. R 52/182. Meldungen aus dem Reich Nr. 376. 15.4.43. S. 8-17.)
As for Stalin's repressions and famines, little do people know:
British Empire, the Bengal Famine - ~3,5 million.
Tsarist Russia, periodical 1900 famines with each having several million high death toll
Capitalist Bangladesh 1974, artificial famine with ~400 000 dead IIRC
Et cetera. If we are to say that Stalin was super-bad because of famines and opression, we must say the same of the imperialist Churchill.
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Post by Mange »

Mange wrote:What should he had done then when they staged a coup?
Stas Bush wrote:Yeltsin was the coupist. 21 Sep 1993 he issued Order #1400 in which he "disbanded" the Commitee of Deputees (Duma) and the Supreme Council, for which he had no Constitutional rights. Essentially he crapped all over the Russian constitution. Just like he crapped over the Russian and CIS economy.
Oh please. The old Soviet constitution from 1978 was still in place and it had no instruments to deal with the sort of constitutional crisis which arose. Yeltsin's attempts to work out a new constitution and to resolve the standstill was blocked by the parliament. Yeltsin suggested that a referendum should be held in order to decide how the power should be balanced, but what happened? It was blocked by the parliament and the 1993 April referendum essentially became an opinion poll on Yeltsin's politics (and the majority of voters expressed confidence in Yeltsin). The Parliament was also using the Russian central bank to undermine the reform work. The new constitution, while not perfect, better reflected the new realities.
And before that, should the Soviet Union, which hindered the economical development of the Baltic states and other republics for over forty years, have stayed in existence?
Stas Bush wrote:The Soviet Union was already on the path to a mixed economy with Gorbachov. Gorbachov planned a 25-30 year slow creation of private sector, a-la China or Belarus. Forcibly severing the deep economic ties between the Republics made it a catastrophy.
There are quite many assumptions in this (and the next) paragraph...
Stas Bush wrote:Besides, the separation of the Baltics could've been tolerated and the Union could've persevered, Gorbachov had plans for such an action.
For whom and why would the Union, which was forced upon the majority of the republics in the first place, have been preserved?
While some poor choices were made in the beginning after the dissolution (most notably in regards to the oligarchs), what can you expect after so many years of mismanagement?
Stas Bush wrote:Ask the people. Most of them, according to the FOM, think that they had a better life level under the USSR and regret about it's forcible destruction. And who will answer for the social and economic effects during the Yeltsinist rule in Russia alone, for putting millions of people in hunger, dozens of thousands dying yearly from banditism? I don't know where have you been when the Union was destroyed, but I was here in Russia. I don't know where you had been when the Russian provinces were full of people in hunger during 1993 and 1998, but I was here. And frankly, we had this discussion already. Behind me are the bulk of statistics of the "democratic" Russia (not the USSR, but Russia from 1991 onwards - the decline was a slow downfall, and you could see it very well even through the "democratic" years alone) and the people's clear opinion expressed above in the FOM polls. Behind you - your own perceptions, and you weren't even here when it happened.
No, I wasn't there and I wasn't there when the Earth was formed either. I've already stated where I put the blame.
Despite his faults, Yeltsin took the right step and dissolved a state which had an economical and political system which will be remembered as the most inefficient (and tyrannical) experiment of the 20th Century.
Stas Bush wrote:I don't know what you think out there about Yeltsin, perhaps the Cold War has totally warped your perception of us as "evil Russkies",
My country was 'neutral' during the Cold War (we were, and still are neighbours, although the sea border is much, much smaller than it used to be :P) and I was rather young when it ended. And I have nothing against Russia or Russians. I've only been to Russia twice (never to Moscow though), but I find Russians to be a friendly and hospitable people.
Stas Bush wrote:but most of the people here still long for the achievments of the USSR, so certainly if Yeltsin' "will be remembered", it will be outside Russia.
But should people stay in the past? And was it really only the good times as people seems to remember? I have no personal experience on how easy or difficult or what challenges there are to enter politics in Russia, but in general, if one wants changes, why not at least try to work for them?
Stas Bush wrote:And Khrushev's or Brezhnew's autocracy was nothing even close to some of the regimes of both the XX and XXI century. Gorbachov's USSR was a left-liberal state already, the process of political liberalization and economic liberalization have been going on.
Agreed and I think it's a shame that his reforms were cut short.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Yeltsin's attempts to work out a new constitution and to resolve the standstill was blocked by the parliament. Yeltsin suggested that a referendum should be held in order to decide how the power should be balanced, but what happened? It was blocked by the parliament and the 1993 April referendum essentially became an opinion poll on Yeltsin's politics (and the majority of voters expressed confidence in Yeltsin).
I'm sorry to shatter this idea:
FOM.ru opinion polls - 1993 wrote:The poll asked the interviewees if they could remember which of the conflicting sides they supported during the described events. As it turned out, 23% of those polled sympathized with Parliament, 21% supported the Russian President and another 20% claim they backed neither. [...] As for those who claim to have supported Boris Yeltsin in the conflict, as few as half of them (48%) justify his actions today.
Doesn't look like a majority, and even then, the Parliament had the right to block attempts at a new constitution, constitutionally. Yeltsin did NOT have such rights. Just as earlier he disbanded the USSR unlawfully.
The new constitution, while not perfect, better reflected the new realities.
And gave the President autocratic powers, that is the right to disband the Parliament. Yeltsin is the same as Kuchma or any post-Soviet autocrat. And how do you think parliamentarism can even rise under such thugs? Why do you think Putin has these powers now?
There are quite many assumptions in this (and the next) paragraph...
Indeed. But Gorbachov was able to prove with documents that he _had_ such plans, he has a very good lengthy issue on the dismemberment of the USSR.
For whom and why would the Union, which was forced upon the majority of the republics in the first place, have been preserved?
I just said for whom. The majority of people in the three main Republics - those which were dissected! - voted to preserve the Union, in a referenda which was lawful (the Supreme Soviet unlike Yeltsin had the right to run referenda). These same people deeply regret the dismemberment of the USSR even 16 years later. For all us, Soviet people.
I've already stated where I put the blame.
You defend Yeltsin, ignoring the facts? That's a nice position to have.
And I have nothing against Russia or Russians. I've only been to Russia twice (never to Moscow though), but I find Russians to be a friendly and hospitable people.
Then why do you think that Russian and Soviet people who have stated their will, deserved to have their state carved up by three thugs on a drunk party, behind everyone's back? I've already shown how this dismemberment was covertly plotted by the Republican leadership who were willing to plunder their respective republics without interference from "too honest" people like Gorbachov and other in the USSR leadership.
But should people stay in the past? And was it really only the good times as people seems to remember? I have no personal experience on how easy or difficult or what challenges there are to enter politics in Russia, but in general, if one wants changes, why not at least try to work for them?
Are you saying Russians have not been working? And frankly, having been in Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan (and earlier as the Kazakh SSR) and Belarus and China I am firmly entrenched in the opinion that reforming socialism, creating a more flexible and robust system, enduring the crisis - was the key, not the thuggish capitalism of Yeltsin.
Agreed and I think it's a shame that his reforms were cut short.
Then why do you support the brutal thug who plotted the carving up of the USSR behind Gorbachov's back, then ousted the liberal Soviet leader out of power? Gorbachov wasn't hellbent on stealing money and self-enriching, I believe that he was simply _too weak_, but he was at least a competent and honest person.

It should be well known to you that the bandit Yeltsin wrote in his memoirs that he longed to be free from "Gorbachov's supervision" and "do whatever I want". What he wanted is to be free from ANY responsibility towards the people, and 1993 proved that well. Just as his re-drafted autocratic laws.
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Stas Bush wrote:I just said for whom. The majority of people in the three main Republics - those which were dissected! - voted to preserve the Union, in a referenda which was lawful (the Supreme Soviet unlike Yeltsin had the right to run referenda). These same people deeply regret the dismemberment of the USSR even 16 years later. For all us, Soviet people.
Didn't something like 90% of Ukraine's population supported the independence in a referendum in 1991?
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