Troops attack sheep with grenades

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Plekhanov
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Troops attack sheep with grenades

Post by Plekhanov » 2007-04-10 05:55pm

Troops Attack Iraqi Sheep with Grenades

It's a video so no article to quote, for anyone who can't see it the video shows people, apparently US Troops in Iraq, throwing a flash grenade at a flock of sheep & a shepherd near a road they're driving down and then laughing hysterically.

Original thread title was "US Troops winning hearts and minds in Iraq", however because it's not clear this was in Iraq, those were troops, or hell if those were Americans who the hell knows, so the thread has been edited-Mr Bean

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Post by Lonestar » 2007-04-10 06:03pm

Weak even for you Plek.

(1) No English spoken in the Video
(2) No shots of the soldiers/marines
(3) IF IT IS a Humvee, it is a kind that we don't drive around in Iraq(doesn't appear to be uparmored, soldiers wouldn't be hanging around topside)
(4) A indistinct vehicle leading it. Someone else(Brun) may be able to ID it, I can't.
(5) Perhaps not coincidently, multiple organizations in Iraq use Humvee-type vehicles, including the Iraqi Government, army, and paramilitaries.
(6) Of course, we don't even know this is Iraq, as there are no pictures of any soldiers, or audible conversationt hat can tell us what language is being spoken.

1.0/5.0 is your score. Come back later.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

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Post by Plekhanov » 2007-04-10 06:19pm

Lonestar wrote:Weak even for you Plek.

(1) No English spoken in the Video
(2) No shots of the soldiers/marines
(3) IF IT IS a Humvee, it is a kind that we don't drive around in Iraq(doesn't appear to be uparmored, soldiers wouldn't be hanging around topside)
(4) A indistinct vehicle leading it. Someone else(Brun) may be able to ID it, I can't.
(5) Perhaps not coincidently, multiple organizations in Iraq use Humvee-type vehicles, including the Iraqi Government, army, and paramilitaries.
(6) Of course, we don't even know this is Iraq, as there are no pictures of any soldiers, or audible conversationt hat can tell us what language is being spoken.

1.0/5.0 is your score. Come back later.
It would seem you missed the bit where I wrote 'apparently US Troops in Iraq' :roll:

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Post by Lonestar » 2007-04-10 06:25pm

Oh, sorry. I did see your fucking thread title, where you said "US Troops winning hearts and minds in Iraq", which makes it very fucking clear who you're leveling the accusation on.

By the way, writing in a legal weasel out in your post only works your fucking thread title doesn't contradict your pathetic attempt at a save.

:wanker:
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

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Post by Lonestar » 2007-04-10 06:25pm

By the way, writing in a legal weasel out in your post only works whenyour fucking thread title doesn't contradict your pathetic attempt at a save.
Ghetto edit.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

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Post by Darth Wong » 2007-04-10 06:32pm

Good thing you cleared that up, Lonestar. For a moment there, I might have believed this shocking piece of evidence that US troops are not behaving impeccably in Iraq. Thanks to you, my confidence is restored that their behaviour in Iraq lives up to Emily Post standards.
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Post by Plekhanov » 2007-04-10 06:32pm

Lonestar wrote:Oh, sorry. I did see your fucking thread title, where you said "US Troops winning hearts and minds in Iraq", which makes it very fucking clear who you're leveling the accusation on.

By the way, writing in a legal weasel out in your post only works your fucking thread title doesn't contradict your pathetic attempt at a save.

:wanker:
How exactly is my accurate description of the contents of the video a 'legal weasel' or a 'pathetic attempt at a save'? I was aware that it wasn't clear who or where the troops were hence my use of qualifiers.

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Post by Lonestar » 2007-04-10 06:45pm

Darth Wong wrote:Good thing you cleared that up, Lonestar. For a moment there, I might have believed this shocking piece of evidence that US troops are not behaving impeccably in Iraq. Thanks to you, my confidence is restored that their behaviour in Iraq lives up to Emily Post standards.
Glad to be of service. I'll be here all week, tips are accepted.


Plekhanov wrote: How exactly is my accurate description of the contents of the video a 'legal weasel' or a 'pathetic attempt at a save'? I was aware that it wasn't clear who or where the troops were hence my use of qualifiers.

One qualifier and two certain statements(including your thread title) can leave no doubt that despite one count of "apparently" thrown in, the gist and true intent of your post is that a 30 sec video with no audible conversation, no pictures of the guys throwing the flashbang, no way to identify the vehicle(I agree that it's safe to say it's a military vehicle) or whom it belongs to, is a shot of US Troops heaving flashbangs (on a immaculate highway) at sheep in Iraq. Hell, I'm glad you have such rigid standards of evidence.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

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Post by Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba » 2007-04-10 07:01pm

Well, you did say 'Apparently US troops', which is a lie. It's not apparent at all. In fact, there aren't any fucking troops in the video to be apparent anyway.

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Post by jegs2 » 2007-04-10 07:24pm

Seems more likely something one of the many roving bands of civilian contractors might have done. Not many Soldiers are issued flash-bangs, but rather fragmentary grenades which would create considerably more damage.
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Post by Flagg » 2007-04-10 07:24pm

Considering the conduct of some of our troops over there I see no reason why it would be a leap to think they did this.
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Post by Bob Gaussington » 2007-04-10 07:28pm

Flagg wrote:Considering the conduct of some of our troops over there I see no reason why it would be a leap to think they did this.
Sure, except for the complete lack of evidence. I'll blame it on the Brits. I have no evidence, but that doesn't seem to stop anyone.

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Post by Flagg » 2007-04-10 07:36pm

Bob Gaussington wrote:
Flagg wrote:Considering the conduct of some of our troops over there I see no reason why it would be a leap to think they did this.
Sure, except for the complete lack of evidence. I'll blame it on the Brits. I have no evidence, but that doesn't seem to stop anyone.
I don't have a problem with anyone saying that there is a lack of evidence that it was US troops. The problem I have is with the bullshit indignation by some in this thread, as if the very idea that American soldiers would do this is just out of line.
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Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2007-04-10 07:37pm

COULD It be our troops?
yes.

Do I believe it is?
no.

It could be in the middle of Florida for all I know, there isn't a shred of vidance as to who, where, and what in this. So really, need more.
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Post by Bob Gaussington » 2007-04-10 07:41pm

Flagg wrote:
Bob Gaussington wrote:
Flagg wrote:Considering the conduct of some of our troops over there I see no reason why it would be a leap to think they did this.
Sure, except for the complete lack of evidence. I'll blame it on the Brits. I have no evidence, but that doesn't seem to stop anyone.
I don't have a problem with anyone saying that there is a lack of evidence that it was US troops. The problem I have is with the bullshit indignation by some in this thread, as if the very idea that American soldiers would do this is just out of line.
That's fine. I just don't like people automatically assuming its the Americans. There are other people in the world.

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Post by Darth Raptor » 2007-04-10 07:47pm

This happening at all is a damning indictment of the United States. Whether or not we're directly responsible for this particular act is irrelevant. Iraq is in chaos, and people are being terrorized by *whoever*. Military? Police? Random thugs? American? Iraqi? Polish? It doesn't matter. The salient point here is that the country is in complete and absolute anarchy. This point needs to be made as clearly and as loudly as possible. Because Corpse-Fucker McCain is running for president, and he has a credible chance of getting it. If he does, he will keep us in this pointless, tragic and mind-numbingly stupid war. The American people need to be nauseated by the word "Iraq" whenever they hear it. If people continue to see what this war is all about, they will continue to hate it, and we'll have a real chance of getting out of it.

"Oh noes ur maeking us look bad!" say the "patriots". Intelligent people want what's actually, tangibly best for their country. This. Is. Not. Sparta.

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Post by Bob Gaussington » 2007-04-10 07:52pm

Thing is, you can't even tell if it is Iraq. The video just shows an arid looking area. Hell, it looks like west Texas to me.

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Post by jegs2 » 2007-04-10 07:53pm

Darth Raptor wrote:This happening at all is a damning indictment of the United States. Whether or not we're directly responsible for this particular act is irrelevant.
That what is happening - an unidentified individual in an unidentified vehicle tossing what appears to be a flash-bang into a herd of sheep in an unidentified location? Based on that, you type your diatribe? That's quite a stretch.
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Post by Singular Intellect » 2007-04-10 07:53pm

Darth Wong wrote:Good thing you cleared that up, Lonestar. For a moment there, I might have believed this shocking piece of evidence that US troops are not behaving impeccably in Iraq. Thanks to you, my confidence is restored that their behaviour in Iraq lives up to Emily Post standards.
:wtf: Where the fuck does LoneStar's post even hint that American troops have a clean name or flawless behavior in Iraq or anywhere for that matter?

His post boiled down to nothing more than "The presented evidence is grossly inadaquate to conclude this is in fact American troops", which the thread title explicitly implies these are.

Not a single one of his points was addressed or countered in this thread, and they all came across as valid objections to me. It might be American troops, it could be another power's troops, or it could be a bunch of wannabe idiots trying to smear any particular power with propaganda footage. Hell, even the country this supposedly took place in isn't confirmed in any way I've seen.

I would've figured his observation would be applauded on this board, which prides itself on empirical evidence and making conclusions based upon that, not knee jerk reactions and straw manning his point. Especially from the board owner whom I've expected to walk the talk this board is all about. :?

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Post by Lonestar » 2007-04-10 08:02pm

Bubble Boy wrote:<snip>
I find no difficulty, none, in believing that American servicemen are misbehaving in unacceptable numbers(being defined as "equal to or greater than one"). But if Plek's big story is based upon a 30sec clip, that doesn't give an audible language, a shot of the vehicle(which the blog confidently categorizes as a Humvee..of course, we don't know because we don't even get a shot of the bed of the truck), an accurate marker that defines the location, and most damming of all not even a shot of a US Servicemen.

There isn't even a sleeve with a camo pattern for identification.

If Darth Wong wants to be sarcastic, fine. I agree with him that there are service members overseas fucking up. (for all I know they could be service members in the states driving around a rural area, that's my level of confidence that young, 18-22 year olds act like shitheads)

But the evidence that Plek trotted out sure as Hell doesn't pass muster.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

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Post by Singular Intellect » 2007-04-10 08:07pm

Lonestar wrote:But the evidence that Plek trotted out sure as Hell doesn't pass muster.
That was my sole point in regards to your post.

I'm not taking any position favoring or criticizing American troops, or any other troops for that matter.

I just expected a bit better from this board to be perfectly frank.

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Post by Darth Raptor » 2007-04-10 08:07pm

jegs2 wrote:
Darth Raptor wrote:This happening at all is a damning indictment of the United States. Whether or not we're directly responsible for this particular act is irrelevant.
That what is happening - an unidentified individual in an unidentified vehicle tossing what appears to be a flash-bang into a herd of sheep in an unidentified location? Based on that, you type your diatribe? That's quite a stretch.
Haha, you're so cute! You're like the Little Engine Who Couldn't, but you keep choo-choo-choosing to take on people with better reading comprehension and critical thinking skills than you. No, we can't tell anything useful about this particular incident. But this is not a stand-alone aberration from the norm, and don't pretend for a minute that it is. It's not as if Iraqi anarchy and violence against civilians is in question or anything. This is one brown drop in an entire sea of shit. You'll notice that I said whether we're responsible for this or not is irrelevant. As in, the veracity of this video doesn't matter. Stuff like this is happening, and super-patriots directing their indignation in the entirely wrong direction is a huge part of the problem.

I <3 you, jegs2. ^_^

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Post by jegs2 » 2007-04-10 08:11pm

Darth Raptor wrote:No, we can't tell anything useful about this particular incident.

Correct.
Darth Raptor wrote:But this is not a stand-alone aberration from the norm, and don't pretend for a minute that it is.
Proof that alleged incidents as portrayed by the video in the OP is the norm? The rest of your drivel is pointless without it.
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Post by Darth Raptor » 2007-04-10 08:12pm

jegs2 wrote:Proof that alleged incidents as portrayed by the video in the OP is the norm? The rest of your drivel is pointless without it.
What, violence against livestock? No, I probably can't prove that. :lol: And if you're asking for proof of violence against civilians, you can't possibly be serious.

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Post by Lonestar » 2007-04-10 08:13pm

Darth Raptor wrote:
Haha, you're so cute! You're like the Little Engine Who Couldn't, but you keep choo-choo-choosing to take on people with better reading comprehension and critical thinking skills than you. No, we can't tell anything useful about this particular incident. But this is not a stand-alone aberration from the norm, and don't pretend for a minute that it is. It's not as if Iraqi anarchy and violence against civilians is in question or anything. This is one brown drop in an entire sea of shit. You'll notice that I said whether we're responsible for this or not is irrelevant. As in, the veracity of this video doesn't matter. Stuff like this is happening, and super-patriots directing their indignation in the entirely wrong direction is a huge part of the problem.

I <3 you, jegs2. ^_^

So, just like Plek and drawing conclusions from shit that ain't there in the video, you drew "Huur hurr shit like this don't really happen" from "There is nothing in this that says anything"?

Lemme guess, you graduated from the Slyvia Browne school of Psychics, didn't you?

Damn, that's a prestigious institution.
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

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