What to do about Illegal Immigration????

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-03-27 01:45pm

This has the potential to be a huge issue in 2006 and 2008.. I hope to get some thoughts from you all.

I am leaning to adding more National Guard Troops to the border patrol. Giveing Guest worker passes but not citizenship. Mixed with heavy fines for Biz who hire them/

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-03-27 01:46pm

Unclogging the legitimate immigration system, for one.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-03-27 01:49pm

Darth Raptor wrote:Unclogging the legitimate immigration system, for one.

Ok ,but what about the 12million that are already here.. and are streaming across the border?

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2006-03-27 01:53pm

Million Mine Boarder!

But really. We need to assert our dominance over the boarder at the same time realizing we need the cheep labor that Mexico provides. We need to control the boarder to keep the drug running bastards, and terrorists out, while making it simpler and proper for legitimate workers to come and work. But we need to address the issue of citizenship, as in who would be eligible, and who can just be a guest worker, and deal with the possibility of deportations of people who stay past their allotted time.

We need to get rid of the bullshit that if your born in the nation your a citizen.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2006-03-27 01:57pm

Deport them all, million mine border, open up citizenships and visas to Europeans, Asians, Eastern Europeans, Israelis, and Russians/Ukrainians

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2006-03-27 01:59pm

Zed Snardbody wrote:realizing we need the cheep labor that Mexico provides.

Actually we don't.

Cheap labor deflates our economy. Would you work in a backbreaking landscaping job in the sun for $7.25 an hour? Nope. But for $10 an hour I'd do so; but the easy avalability of illegal labor drives down wages for everyone; historically labor has been scarce in America, while Capital has been easily available.

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2006-03-27 02:03pm

What about the harvesting jobs?

SecondToDie · Post by **SecondToDie** » 2006-03-27 02:19pm

I think we should round up and deport all illegals, imprison people who knowingly hire illegals, amend the Constitution to prevent children of illegals from acquiring citizenship, put the military along the border, and build a wall along the border.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-03-27 02:39pm

Ease requirements for getting in, adopt a 'Shoot Coyotes On Sight' policy to the southern border. Inspect more cargo containers for signs of human life.

FSTargetDrone · Post by **FSTargetDrone** » 2006-03-27 03:12pm

Zed Snardbody wrote:We need to get rid of the bullshit that if your born in the nation your a citizen.

Pardon?

Do you expect naturalization proceedings for everyone born within the borders of the US? Citizenship tests? Or do you mean those that sneak across and give birth here?

'Cause if not I'd like to hear about the plan you have for making exceptions, or something.

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2006-03-27 03:29pm

FSTargetDrone wrote:
Zed Snardbody wrote:We need to get rid of the bullshit that if your born in the nation your a citizen.
Pardon?

Do you expect naturalization proceedings for everyone born within the borders of the US? Citizenship tests? Or do you mean those that sneak across and give birth here?

'Cause if not I'd like to hear about the plan you have for making exceptions, or something.

I'm apologize, I wasn't clear. I meant that the child of two foreigners is considered a citizen if born in the US is bullshit and should be done away with.

FSTargetDrone · Post by **FSTargetDrone** » 2006-03-27 03:36pm

Zed Snardbody wrote:I'm apologize, I wasn't clear. I meant that the child of two foreigners is considered a citizen if born in the US is bullshit and should be done away with.

Alright, I figured as much. Just making sure.

And in any case, I do agree with that. Both my parents' families immigrated legally to this country and were productive members of society. That's why I resent these people who sneak in even more.

I can understand people wanting to escape abject poverty and dire living conditions, especially from Mexico and such, but the US cannot help everyone.

And quite frankly I would also end this politcially-induced policy of letting Cubans in if they reach dry land.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-27 03:47pm

People always forget that in the end result illegal immigrants are people too. Boo hoo the economy is deflated a little... illegal immigrants have to contribute to the economy like any consumer. The 10.75 to 7.25 example is a load of shit, I'd like to see real proof of that and not just theorizing.

It's rather easy to find justification for letting in as many people as possible on humanitarian grounds. As long as you can support yourself (or find somebody to support you) in the country you should be allowed in.

As for the child thing... you are born in the country the country takes care of you end of story. Making children of illegal immigrants non-citizens is the complete wrong way to go--it'd create an underclass of citizen. What do you think, these children will move back? Please

. You may not like people taking advantage of the system by coming in and having a child then staying, but if they can support themselves who gives a fuck. And if they can't... pitch in and help a kid grow up in a first world country rather than a third world country oh well. The alternative is to have whole generations of underclass citizens. Grrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeat alternative.

Anyway there is a need for cheap labor.

Catherine C. Orenstein wrote: The internationalization of labor under conditions of illegality or temporary permission serves vast U.S. political and economic interests. Migrant labor is cheap labor, typically receiving less than half the normal monthly earnings of American workers and so minimizing labor costs for American businesses. Migrant workers characteristically fill low prestige or undesirable jobs that the typical American worker is able to shun. Child care providers, janitors, gardeners and other workers in service industries have been in higher demand since American economic growth in the 1980s created a high-income professional class. Many of these jobs are "off the books," leading to the expansion of an informal economy.

This is from the Journal of International Affairs v48 p601-24 Winter 95. I didn't even have to look it up to know this--it's something basic we learned in Grade 9 Geography class

.

Brian

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-03-27 03:53pm

So you have no Problem with the strain they are putting on the social services and hospitals in AZ NM and CA and Texas??

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-03-27 03:59pm

Some dollar figures..

Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

and

Every minute, at least one immigrant crosses the border into Arizona.

At Senator Jon Kyle's request, his organization calculated the cost to Arizona hospitals for treating illegal immigrants at 31 million dollars in just one year

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-27 04:02pm

I don't live in AZ, NM, CA or TX, I live in Canada and I'm not familiar with the social services issue. It's not that I have no problem, it's that what is the alternative--create an underclass of citizen? Shep's Great Wall of the United States?

.

Strain on social services bullocks, put more money into social services and turn back people at the border, or hire more border guards, but something as far as making illegal immigrant's children non-citizens is retarded because it punishes children who had nothing to do with their parent's decisions. The children will effectively be nationless.

As for all these dollar figures... sure big deal, you have to pay more to help those damn dirty Mexicans, wouldn't want them taking your jobs because they work harder would you? I would be more interested in a long term study over several generations to see if these illegal immigrant's children eventually dig themselves out of the whole--which I suspect does happen but it takes time. It may be economically less sound, but economics is not the only issue.

Brian

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-03-27 04:03pm

Do illegal immigrants pay taxes?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-27 04:06pm

And I'm sure those illegal immgrant households would gladly pay a paltry 2,700 USD to avoid being deported. The whole point of Medicaid is to help poor people, so obviously you will lose money helping them

.

Even if they don't pay taxes, if they did they would pay a very small amount because their income's so low so I doubt it's hurting the Treasury to the breaking point. I would be more worried about say, things like the War on Iraq. Plus they do pay tax in sales tax on everything they buy.

Brian

theski · Post by **theski** » 2006-03-27 04:07pm

brianeyci wrote:I don't live in AZ, NM, CA or TX, I live in Canada and I'm not familiar with the social services issue. It's not that I have no problem, it's that what is the alternative--create an underclass of citizen? Shep's Great Wall of the United States? .

Strain on social services bullocks, put more money into social services and turn back people at the border, or hire more border guards, but something as far as making illegal immigrant's children non-citizens is retarded because it punishes children who had nothing to do with their parent's decisions. The children will effectively be nationless.

As for all these dollar figures... sure big deal, you have to pay more to help those damn dirty Mexicans, wouldn't want them taking your jobs because they work harder would you? I would be more interested in a long term study over several generations to see if these illegal immigrant's children eventually dig themselves out of the whole--which I suspect does happen but it takes time. It may be economically less sound, but economics is not the only issue.

Brian

That wasnt me on the children thing..

My point is They Cost more then they contribute.. They drive down wages.. and This is not a fucking racist thing.. so you can keep the Diry mexican shit..

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-27 04:12pm

Yes they cost more than they contribute... now.

But the goal of immigration is not just economic. If you do that you'll have problems like in Canada where you're attracting workers with very high educations who end up being taxi cab drivers. At least the people coming into the Southern United States are happy to work low-wage jobs.

Sorry for calling you racist, but if you aren't racist then you believe that the goal is to get the greatest GDP? You will lose money helping poor people, even non-immigrants. The only kind of study that would be valid would be a long-term study over generations. You will lose with first-generation immigrants, the question is by the second, third or fourth whether you're still losing.

Brian

Post by **Simplicius** » 2006-03-27 04:13pm

Mandate that minimum wage applies to illegal immigrants as well, to remove the 'cheap labor' incentive some companies have to hire, for one.

The way I see it, there are two ways to deal with the problem. One is to fortify the borders to the extent of impassibility...but there is legitimate traffic that can't be stopped, but I doubt that aboslute security is possible, particularly in the face of sufficiently desperate and clever people.

The other is to absorb as many as possible through legitimate channels. That way, residents will be taxpaying members of society, thereby alleviating the burden they place on municipal infrastructure. By allowing more people in through legitimate channels, it is easier to keep track of people entering the country, for the purposes of security. It avoids the expense of having to fortify the borders, as well as avoiding the negative effect on international relations. As legitimate members of society they will have to be paid wages and benefits that meet the legal requirements, reducing the economic deflation of underpaid labor. Besides which, for those concerned about low birth rates in industrialized countries, a fresh influx of people is just the ticket for keeping birth-death rates balanced.

An expanded legal immigration process also provides a real reason to crack down on any who try to get through illegally, because they haven't an excuse.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2006-03-27 04:21pm

One of the factors that hasn't been brought up here is how the authorities and businesses deal with illegal workers. Businesses hire them during the picking season, and the cops turn a blind eye, but then once the season is over, then it's time to go round them up and deport them, assuming they don't leave on their own. This sort of approach is dishonest but all too common here in this country.

Another factor is exactly who will work the fruit/vegetable picking jobs that illegal immigrants often take? Washington State cherry growers are currently attempting to hire US citizens for these jobs, paying $9.25 per hour for people with NO experience. Last year, they had 150 US citizens (non-hispanic) accept these jobs, and only TWO lasted the entire three month season. Most quit within the first two weeks because the job was unpleasant, dirty, hot, etc....

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2006-03-27 04:25pm

Zed Snardbody wrote:I'm apologize, I wasn't clear. I meant that the child of two foreigners is considered a citizen if born in the US is bullshit and should be done away with.

And if the parent's government doesn't recognize children born outside it's borders, then what?

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2006-03-27 04:29pm

Zed Snardbody wrote:I'm apologize, I wasn't clear. I meant that the child of two foreigners is considered a citizen if born in the US is bullshit and should be done away with.

Because that's working out great for France.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-03-27 04:31pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:
Zed Snardbody wrote:I'm apologize, I wasn't clear. I meant that the child of two foreigners is considered a citizen if born in the US is bullshit and should be done away with.
And if the parent's government doesn't recognize children born outside it's borders, then what?

The child suffers. Which is exactly why it isn't workable.

Even the raise minimum wage up to 10 bucks an hour might not be workable. The upper classes need cheap goods and therefore there's an underground economy. It's part of the free market system and globalization. Not that the illegal immgrants cause an underground economy and if you made a Great Wall the need would suddenly go away.

Brian

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

What to do about Illegal Immigration????

What to do about Illegal Immigration????

Re: What to do about Illegal Immigration????