Malaysia Airlines 777 Crash (Europe)

[TimothyC]

From the BBC World News Facebook Page:

BREAKING- Reports that a Malaysian passenger airliner
with 295 people on board has crashed in Ukraine near the Russian
border.

The Boeing 777 plane was flying from Amsterdam to
Kuala Lumpur. More to follow.

And the Telegraph has it now too:

[Mr Bean]

It rare when I cross my fingers and hope this is not an shoot down but mechanical accident.

[Dalton]

Reports coming in that it was shot down.

[ray245]

Not good news for Malaysia Airlines.

[Dalton]

Just heard on MSNBC that it was a Buk ground-to-air missile.

[AniThyng]

Can a Buk do that to an airliner at cruising altitude?

Dammit.

[AniThyng]

Not good news for Malaysia Airlines.

I am not sure which is worse. That it might be mechanical failure or maintenance failure or that it was shot down.

Was that air space open for commercial traffic or wasit restricted

[Vympel]

Just heard on MSNBC that it was a Buk ground-to-air missile.

The Ukrainians are claiming that, naturally, because they know that the rebels took control of one of their Buk units. Whether its actually true or not is another matter - how would they even know, given it literally just happened? I'll grant its plausible though.

[AniThyng]

Just heard on MSNBC that it was a Buk ground-to-air missile.

The Ukrainians are claiming that, naturally, because they know that the rebels took control of one of their Buk units. Whether its actually true or not is another matter - how would they even know, given it literally just happened? I'll grant its plausible though.

What's the point of even speculating on that on Ukraine's part

[Vympel]

What's the point of even speculating on that on Ukraine's part

To make the rebels look bad, as usual.

[AniThyng]

What's the point of even speculating on that on Ukraine's part

To make the rebels look bad, as usual.

And if it's false it will last about as long as it takes to prove it wasn't.

Not that I have any idea how the hell this would happen now, unlike MH370 at least we supposedly know where the wreck is, but who will get there? Who controls the area? Would the Ukraine or rebels allow the NSTB in this time?

[Vympel]

And if it's false it will last about as long as it takes to prove it wasn't.

Only for people who care. I mean for fuck's sake, the New York Times' Ukraine coverage has been so shamelessly propagandistic that it can honestly be said that they are more shcoked about looters being executed on the orders of by Igor 'Strelkov' Girkin than the hundreds of civilians being killed by shelling of the Ukrainian Army.

Not that I have any idea how the hell this would happen now, unlike MH370 at least we supposedly know where the wreck is, but who will get there? Who controls the area? Would the Ukraine or rebels allow the NSTB in this time?

At best you could say the area is 'contested'. It could be really difficult.

[Mange]

I think it's too much of a coincidence for it to crash there without having been shot down by either part involved in the conflict. I really don't think an experienced radar technician would confuse a passenger jet from a military plane if this plane was downed, then one should start looking at the rebels. Also, on CNN, it was said that the Americans have concluded that the An 26 that was shot down in the very same area this Monday was downed by a missile from the Russian side of the border.

[AniThyng]

What other commercial air traffic was in the vicinity? Should the MAS plane have been there at all? I'm pretty sure that is the normal route, but given the circumstances, should airlines have routed around the area? Were there directives from Ukraine/Russia/ICAO to that effect?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What other commercial air traffic was in the vicinity? Should the MAS plane have been there at all? I'm pretty sure that is the normal route, but given the circumstances, should airlines have routed around the area? Were there directives from Ukraine/Russia/ICAO to that effect?

I think someone failed to file the proper paperwork or failed to do their homework...

[AniThyng]

What other commercial air traffic was in the vicinity? Should the MAS plane have been there at all? I'm pretty sure that is the normal route, but given the circumstances, should airlines have routed around the area? Were there directives from Ukraine/Russia/ICAO to that effect?

I think someone failed to file the proper paperwork or failed to do their homework...

Are you insinuating that if it was in fact a shoot down, it was MAS's fault for routing the plane over there?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

What other commercial air traffic was in the vicinity? Should the MAS plane have been there at all? I'm pretty sure that is the normal route, but given the circumstances, should airlines have routed around the area? Were there directives from Ukraine/Russia/ICAO to that effect?

I think someone failed to file the proper paperwork or failed to do their homework...

Are you insinuating that if it was in fact a shoot down, it was MAS's fault for routing the plane over there?

Why don't you ask MAS what the flight route is? At this point, there are too little details over what's going on, never mind that we have no idea who's going to even go to investigate the wreckage right in the middle of a war zone.

[AniThyng]

Look, the approximate location of the wreckage and the territory is at this point not a secret, all I'm asking is was the region declared no-go for civilian airliner traffic at all, and if you are going to just tell me to fucking google it, then you can piss off.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Look, the approximate location of the wreckage and the territory is at this point not a secret, all I'm asking is was the region declared no-go for civilian airliner traffic at all, and if you are going to just tell me to fucking google it, then you can piss off. Now if Sea Skimmer came in here and told me to just fucking google it I maybe would listen.

http://www.unn.com.ua/ru/news/1362709-d ... QM.twitter

Apparently, as of 8th July, yes.

[Hokalus]

according to this site http://euroasianews.com/ukraine-closes- ... peratists/ closure excluded international transits above 7,900m

Eastern Ukraine’s air space has been closed due to the intensified military operations, Ukrainian state-run air transport institution announced Tuesday.

A ten-day ceasefire ended June 30 and Ukrainian troops re-launched attacks against pro-Russian separatists in eastern regions. In the rebel-stronghold of Slavyansk city where separatists laid siege to weeks ago, the Ukrainian army made a major gain in the offensives by seizing back control of the rebel-stronghold on Saturday.

The eastern Donetsk region will remain closed for flights until Ukraine army’s air-supported operation against pro-Russian separatists concludes, local sources said.

Local aviation officials also announced that they closed the eastern airspace for any civilian flights until the level of security returns to normal. The closure, however, excludes international transit flights higher than 7,900 metres through the airspace.

Large groups of rebels fleeing from Slavyansk are regrouping in Donetsk, amid Ukraine’s successful operations to take back control of eastern regions including Artemivsk, Druzhkivka, Kramatorsk and Kostiantynivka last week. The army also intensified its attacks in another separatist stronghold in the Lugansk region on Monday leaving one civilian dead and one other injured.

[Broomstick]

Not that I have any idea how the hell this would happen now, unlike MH370 at least we supposedly know where the wreck is, but who will get there? Who controls the area? Would the Ukraine or rebels allow the NSTB in this time?

The US NTSB has no jurisdiction outside US territories, of course. In the past they have provided various services and consulting to other nations, and they always offer, but they invariably wait for an explicit invitation before moving. I am also equally confident Europe has fine aviation investigators. Given the location and circumstances it might be best if the European agencies handle this.

If I heard correctly it's a Boeing then Boeing will also likewise offer to help with any investigation.

As far as the airspace status and air routes – we may have been complacent about a few things. I don't know at what point it became practical, outside of the most advanced military hardware (US, USSR, etc.) to shoot an airliner down at cruising altitude but the fact is even lower tier militaries and rebels are getting more access to powerful weaponry. If it is now practical on a wide scale for entities on the ground to shoot down airliners at those altitudes there will be a whole lot of re-assessing of flights paths in airlines around the world.

Yes, it is probably best to route civilian traffic of all sorts around conflict areas, but if up until now the industry wisdom was that one could “route around” by going higher as well as moving laterally then it may be that MAS was acting within normal industry practices. Going to a higher altitude to avoid a hazard, whether weather or something going on down on the ground is a normal aviation practice. Which hazards can actually be avoided by that may need revision.

As always, this is early days in the story and more information will come to light, no doubt.

[Mange]

Russian news sites are apparently running the cockamamie story that the Ukrainians shot the plane down, thinking it was President Putin's plane.

[Purple]

Russian news sites are apparently running the cockamamie story that the Ukrainians shot the plane down, thinking it was President Putin's plane.

Honestly I would not be surprised if either of the three sides shot it down as a false flag operation to blame the other.

[Captain Seafort]

Honestly I would not be surprised if either of the three sides shot it down as a false flag operation to blame the other.

Three sides?

[The Romulan Republic]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but if it turns out Russia shot it down, would it be potentially sufficient to cause a war between Europe/America and Russia?