Gun-advocates threaten civil war to protect their guns.

[Raw Shark]

Firemen get similar treatment, though that only became really obvious after 9/11.

...or to any guy who has ever said, "I don't care, babe, pick whatever calendar you want this year."

[MKSheppard]

Something to consider.

Basically someone on Reddit wrote the BATFE to see how many of the thousands of bumpstocks (estimated production in wild 500,000~) out there got turned in.



Add on a hundred or so for various states; in many states zero (0) bump stocks were turned in.

We'll call it an even 700 turned in.

That works out to a compliance rate of 0.14%.

Up to 13 September 1994; the total number of AR15s produced was:

Colt 597,585
Eagle Arms / Armalite 30,000 (approx)
Pac-West Arms 35,222
Bushmaster 63,000 (approx)
Olympic Arms On 7 June 2000, Oly Arms suffered a fire, destroying their records.
DPMS 10,300
J.L.M & Sons 250

TOTAL: 736,357

This by the way is well above the 100,000~ limit for "common use" introduced by the TASER Stun gun case that the Supreme Court ruled on. If we stick to that ruling; the AR-15 became unbannable in 1978-1979 when Colt passed the 100,000 manufactured mark (as they held the patents in that time period).

Here's the AR count for 2016 ALONE; thanks to ATF Firearm Manufacturer/Export records; selecting manufacturers which exclusively make AR pattern rifles:

Colt - 117,263
Anderson - 453,763
Aero (misc) - 81,516
PSA (misc) - 111,543
New Frontier (misc) - 28,689
Spike's (misc) - 96,534
Spike's - 5,772
Radical - 12,768
DD - 49,159
Sig - 51,489
Delton - 34,293
CMMG - 9,247
Windham - 64,715
LWRC - 23,642
S&W - 396,710
Troy - 8,091
RRA - 24,166
Stag - 41,990
Adams Arms - 8,408
POF - 9,970

TOTAL 2016 - 1,629,728 AR pattern rifles produced in one year.

Against this, a total of 4,239,335 rifles were manufactured in the US in 2016.

Thus, AR pattern rifles take up about 38.5% of the rifle market in the US.

Assuming that ratio holds true:

2017 -- 2,504,092 rifles total produced; 964,075~ AR Pattern
2018 Interim -- 2,846,757 rifles total produced; 1,096,001~ AR Pattern

Thus, in three years alone, from 2016 to 2018; 3.6~ million AR pattern rifles got built.

To put other popular firearm production numbers into context:

M1 Garand (WWII and Korea Production) - 5.7~ million
Ruger 10/22 -- 5~ million (since 1964)
Remington 870 -- 11~ million (since 1950)

Some people estimate that as many as 12 to 15 million AR pattern rifles have been manufactured since the 1960s; for a round number of around 13.5 million.

We'll estimate that about 6% have been destroyed over the years (810,000). That leaves us with 12.6~ million AR pattern rifles.

Based off bump stock compliance (0.14%) and New York SAFE Act Compliance -- of about 1 million weapons in NY that meet the SAFE Act's definition of an 'Assault Weapon', only 44,000~ got registered in compliance with the law -- a rate of 4.4% percent.

So.

Bob the Fake Mexican bans the AR-15 and requires mandatory turn-in.

History tells us that out of 12.6 million AR rifles; between 17,600~ and 554,400~ will be turned in.

That leaves from 12 to 12.5~ million rifles out there in hands of people who are now felons/outlaws.

What's your plan for mass non compliance?

I suggest you watch this video clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb21_qI90pE

[MKSheppard]

But even I'm sick of the endless bitching by guns-rights activists about people coming to take their property.

https://store.betoorourke.com/hell-yes- ... ns-styles/



I dunno, that seems pretty clear to me. No more endless strawman arguments about how "nobody is coming to take your guns you lunatic" anymore.

Society bans things that are harmful to itself all the time, even if those things have legitimate uses.

Washington State's I-1639 Assault Weapon Ban defined a "semiautomatic assault rifle" as "any rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge."

So, the M-1 Garand and a decent amount of Fudd hunting rifles are "semi automatic assault rifles" now. The well is now truly well and fucking poisoned.


Browning BAR Hunting Rifle, considered an "Assault Weapon" by Washington State.

[MKSheppard]

Then there's the fact that House Democrats voted to kill the Buck Amendment; which would have expanded the Democrat written and sponsored "Red flag" bill to cover known criminals.

In Representative Buck's words: “My amendment is quite simple. It would allow the issuance of a red flag order against anyone whose name appears in a gang database if there was probable cause to include that individual in the database.”

[MKSheppard]

It really is quite amazing comrades, just how much accelerationism we've seen in the gun control debate in the last 14 months.

All the sides in the debate are moving in for kill shots -- the last century or so of gun control / anti gun control has led to this ongoing moment in time.

[MKSheppard]

They claim it is a fundamental right of freedom or property, and look puzzled that the majority of the country is getting fed up with their right to freedom to go about unshot and without wasting hours on drills that NO OTHER DEVELOPED COUNTRY NEEDS.

Funny thing; China is hardening their schools; with controlled entry points, etc; because of a spate of mass school stabbings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_at ... 2%80%9312)

The CCP tries to keep a lid on most of them, but enough news leaks out to make the proletariat nervous, hence the increase in school hardening in China; with all schools in China getting a security guard by 2013 because of this.

[MKSheppard]

Shit like the Mini-14 (and even the CX4) which even our commie-gun-grabbing hippies in Canada (last I bothered to check, mind you) couldn't be bothered to ban. Though IIRC, the MURDER MACHINE black polymer-frames are banned, but not GOOD AND HONEST wood stock models.

Fenix; what's the word on the Liberal's latest gun control ploy?

https://globalnews.ca/news/5928779/just ... rifle-ban/
https://www.liberal.ca/liberals-move-fo ... in-canada/

*We will ban all military-style assault rifles, including
the AR-15. These weapons are specifically designed
to inflict mass human casualties and have no place in
Canadian society;

*We will initiate a buyback program for all assault
rifles legally purchased. Owners will be offered fair
market prices for their weapons. We will also give
law enforcement agencies the resources they need
to properly administer the buyback program;

• A two-year amnesty will be put in place while the
program is being set up;

* We will work with the provinces and territories to
give municipalities the ability to further restrict – or
ban – handguns; and

* We will protect the rights of law-abiding hunters
and pledge not to bring back the long-gun registry.
Hunters do not use or need assault weapons.

That last bit is funny.

Over on another board; Luis Valdez reminisced about being of firearms age in the 1980s and 1990s and how the AR pattern utterly decimated sales of traditional hunting rifles over the next 25 years.

It used to be that you had scores of commercial semi autos made just for hunting -- Winchester, Remington, HK, Browning/FN, Benelli, Ruger, etc; almost all of them replicating the styling of traditional pump/bolt action rifles.

Now?

Only Browning/FN and Benelli still make traditional semi hunting rifles -- everyone else now makes either:


AR-15/10 pattern rifle

or

High Quality/Low Cost bolt actions

That last bit is interesting. Right now, you can get a off the shelf bolt action rifle which will, with good commercial grade ammo; outshoot dedicated precision sniper rifles with match ammo built in the 1970s and 1980s.

PS, you CAN hunt with an AK and with "AP" ammo.


AKS-74U Krink with a Kobra red dot sight and Obama-era banned 5.45 7N6 "armor piercing" ammo.

[madd0ct0r]

Is there a reason youd want to? (over a decent long gun)

[Ralin]

Funny thing; China is hardening their schools; with controlled entry points, etc; because of a spate of mass school stabbings.

...

The CCP tries to keep a lid on most of them, but enough news leaks out to make the proletariat nervous, hence the increase in school hardening in China; with all schools in China getting a security guard by 2013 because of this.

That all happened years ago. And the hardening actually worked. Unlike American attempts to ward off school shooters. So what's your point?

[Lonestar]

Is there a reason youd want to? (over a decent long gun)

AR platforms tend tend to be viewed as General use rifles that can also be used for hunting.

In the 80s there was an idea that "Scout" rifles could fill that role, and some companies(mostly Steyr but years later Ruger and Savage) produced general purpose manually fed long guns as "Scout" rifles. Since then two things happen:

The collapse of the Eastern Bloc lead to huge numbers of cheap .30 semiautomatics hitting the US market. The .30 cal is important; most US states require that the cartridge for deer hunting be a certain size or greater. With the market in the early 90s awash in $90 SKS rifles, they became extraordinarily popular as deer rifles. With that came accessories that turned them into AK-ish looking rifles, and from there it was much of a jump for slightly more expensive AK rifles made from surplus Eastern Bloc parts kits. You can sort of point at this as the transition between "traditional" semiautomatic hunting rifles and use of black rifles as hunting rifles.

By the time those AK parts kits ran out automation had really hit it's stride in AR-platform manufacturing and quality ARs were less expensive than AKs, at least in the US. Most ARs are gonna shoot just as well as traditional rifles like woodmasters, while the mounting options for optics are better and they run more reliably.

[Elheru Aran]

Out of curiosity; how many of those manufactured AR's are sold to the military? Those would not be considered an issue, for obvious reasons.

[Lonestar]

Probably only the Colts. But probably not even those.

The absence of FN and Remington from the listing implies heavily these are not NFA ARs, they are semi-automatic only. While some may be sold to LE(Daniel Defense/LWRC for the Boutique agencies, Colts/S&W for everyone else) we run into the same "are LE sales counted here" problem due to the absence of Bushmaster and Remington.

EDIT: I would complete discount any of the Poverty Ponies going to LE/Military use, for example, and that's 400k of them right there.

[Elheru Aran]

Probably only the Colts. But probably not even those.

The absence of FN and Remington from the listing implies heavily these are not NFA ARs, they are semi-automatic only. While some may be sold to LE(Daniel Defense/LWRC for the Boutique agencies, Colts/S&W for everyone else) we run into the same "are LE sales counted here" problem due to the absence of Bushmaster and Remington.

EDIT: I would complete discount any of the Poverty Ponies going to LE/Military use, for example, and that's 400k of them right there.

Can you explain why for the non-gunners? I happen to understand a little bit of the lingo, but I'm not a member of the gun community, so terms like 'Poverty Pony' are leaving me cold. Is Colt the exclusive provider of AR rifles to the military or something?

Also for the benefit of the thread, may I make a general suggestion that we avoid argot like 'Poverty Ponies' or 'Fudds'. The gun community may be familiar with terms like these; the non-gunners are not. "Assault rifle" is a bad enough term, but it only exists because the non-gunner population simply doesn't know or doesn't bother to make the distinction between select-fire/automatic-capable and semi-automatic firearms... partly because the gun community, all too frequently, either expects people to already know the distinction or doesn't care whether they know or not.

[Lonestar]

Poverty Pony is what people call Andersons,because they aren't Colt, but have a Pony for their rollmark and their lowers run less than $50 a pop. They are not used by LE as a rule, so we can assume at least 450K are being sent to the civilian market 2016, if we assume that everything else listed was exclusively LE/Military(which they would not be). It's worth mentioning that many of the listed brands are largely parts companies for people to assemble ARs themselves. You can buy a full Aero rifle, but more likely you are just buying the lower and building it out.

Colt is not the exclusive provider of M-4s/M-16s to the Military,but for years and years they were, and the reason why they went into bankruptcy during the civilian AR market boom was because the contract ran out and both FN and Remington(neither mentioned in the list) were able to vastly underprice Colt. It's worth mentioning that Remington is a union shop, and FN isn't, so obviously it was just something severely wrong with Colt's processes.

The lack of FN & Remington in the list, wherever it was shep got it, indicates it probably wasn't a production list for military rifles. Because those are big damn contracts to leave out.

Bushmaster wasn't on the list either, and it's common as a LE patrol rifle, which means LE sales numbers are further obfuscated.

It's worth mentioning that frequently State LE agencies buy rifles that are manufactured in their home state, so the MSP use LWRCs which run very high, Texas Rangers use LaRue(not listed) which is similarly high priced, GSP uses Daniel Defense, etc. Other agencies would likely use Colt, FN, Bushmaster, or S&W.

[TheFeniX]

Over on another board; Luis Valdez reminisced about being of firearms age in the 1980s and 1990s and how the AR pattern utterly decimated sales of traditional hunting rifles over the next 25 years.

People do not understand the Honda Civic nature of the AR-15. The gun will do pretty much anything and parts/accessories are just so easy to find.

I don't hunt (it's dumb to wake up at 2am to go freeze your ass off when the meat market opens at 8am). But, I've got a Win .270 bolt action with a scope. It's heavy, kicks like a mule, but is an effective hunting rifle. And it has no other "use" besides shooting deer.

So, if I cared to (I don't own an AR-15 for personal reasons, most of them me being a counter-culture douche), I could drop on down to Academy, drop a couple hundred bucks, and get a rifle that I could hunt deer, hogs, whatever, and then take to the range and just blast off rounds, switch optics with no issues due to integrated weaver rails. Just a whole bunch of shit. I'm pretty sure my brother has a 7mm conversion kit for his. I know you can just do all kinds of crazy shit with a single purchase.

Gee, I wonder why it's such a popular model.......

Only Browning/FN and Benelli still make traditional semi hunting rifles -- everyone else now makes either:

I've always wondered if guns had their own "Tiger Woods" effect. Old doods always talked about "You need a .30.30/.30-06 because it's a brush gun, it doesn't delfect, blah blah blah" so new hunters and shooters went for that because "that's what my dad used." But the ubiquitous of the AR-15 frame and it's popularity in CoD and other games has lead to the new young hunter "jazzing up" shooting/hunting sports like Tiger Woods turned golf away from the "only for old farts with bad fashion sense."

I don't really know the analogy to use, but when people say shit like "the AR-15 is only designed to kill tons of people and you shouldn't own it" just imagine they said the same thing about the Honda Civic. That frame is THAT popular: the truth of how dangerous/not dangerous it is/isn't compared to other guns is irrelevant: you aren't making friends with anyone who doesn't already have your vote saying shit like that. You're hurting the gun control movement, great work....

[madd0ct0r]

I get annoyed with that argument on vocab Fenix, because it remains a deflection from the core question of why gun owners are allowed to impose costs on the rest of the population?

I think i said back on the first page i do not believe there is any level of technical knowledge or argot awareness that would make a gun owner accept any significant form of control, and thus accepts the continual deaths. Toddlers and toys remains unanswered in this thread.

[Lonestar]

I get annoyed with that argument on vocab Fenix, because it remains a deflection from the core question of why gun owners are allowed to impose costs on the rest of the population?

You, uh, you mean like with alcohol consumers and other drug users?

[TheFeniX]

I get annoyed with that argument on vocab Fenix, because it remains a deflection from the core question of why gun owners are allowed to impose costs on the rest of the population?

That's YOUR core question, not mine and not anyone who actually wants progress. You're asking the wrong question unless, like I mentioned before, you just want to virtue signal and/or rage against the machine.

I think i said back on the first page i do not believe there is any level of technical knowledge or argot awareness that would make a gun owner accept any significant form of control, and thus accepts the continual deaths. Toddlers and toys remains unanswered in this thread.

You're wrong. If only because I exist and I would. But I'm not about to sit here and make post after post of emotional appeals and my "feelings." If crying kids and mothers couldn't get something done in the decades since Columbine, it's not going to just start working at some point. Or at least at a point where I'm not worm food, thus passing the problem on to my son.

There's overwhelming support when you mention the term "background check expansion" and it dwindles to nothing when you mention "ban." Hell, there's even major support for raising the minimum age for anything gun related to 21. Hmmmm, this is MAYBE because people want to help but are also selfish assholes. When they feel they have to give up something and also don't feel it's justified: they balk. Whatever their culpability in this problem is: pointing a finger at gunowners and saying "you suck, I hate you, I want to destroy you" without ANY provisions to keep those people from voting? Shit like that only exists to get "likes" on Facebook or whatever social media garbage you spew your shit onto.

Like I said: the GOP targets minorities the way they do because they systematically look for and implement ways to mitigate the impact on getting their people (re)elected. Meanwhile, Pelosi (who I'm sure WOULD grab guns if she could) is instead trying to put a bill to Congress to expand the background check in preparation to rake the GOP through the coals when they inevitably fight it.

You know, because she's not a fucking moron. She understands the American voter, which obviously a lot of gun control advocates do not.

[MKSheppard]

The lack of FN & Remington in the list, wherever it was shep got it, indicates it probably wasn't a production list for military rifles. Because those are big damn contracts to leave out.

It's from the ATF's ANNUAL FIREARMS MANUFACTURING AND EXPORT REPORT -- MANUFACTURED FIREARMS DISTRIBUTED INTO COMMERCE

It gets distributed a few years late -- we're only getting 2018's Interim report as of now, for example.

In 2016's AFMER:

REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY LLC at 1816 REMINGTON CIRCLE, SW in Huntsville, AL manufactured 288,214 rifles.

REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY LLC at 1 4 HOEFLER LANE in Ilion, NY made 296,669 rifles.

REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY at 1310 Industry Road in Sturgis, SD made 362 rifles

REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY at 1209/1310 Industry Road in Sturgis, SD made 184,697 rifles.

Problem with that is Remington makes all sorts of things -- their 2016 catalog for rifles was:

Model 700 (bolt action)
Model 783 (bolt action)
Model 597 (semi auto rimfire)
Model 552/572 (semi auto rimfire)
Model 7600 (full power semi auto fudd rifle)
Model 7 (bolt action)
Model R-25 (AR-10 pattern .308 Rifle)
Model R-15 (AR-15 pattern 5.56 rifle)

And the ATF AFMER only lists total rifles; handguns are however broken down by caliber.

Excluding Remington was deliberate -- because they make a hell of a lot more than just ARMALYTES; and I didn't want to contaminate the count with hunting rifles.

As for FN; two issues:

A.) I can't find them in AFMER 2016

B.) They make

SCAR series
FN 15 (AR-15) series
PS-90 series
SPR A5M XP Series (bolt action)
FN Ballista Series (bolt action)
M249S Semi Auto SAW.

Confusing the matter.

Flipping ahead to AFMER 2017 gives me:

FN America, LLC at 797 OLD CLEMSON ROAD in Columbia, SC -- 15,614 rifles in 2017.

[MKSheppard]

In the 80s there was an idea that "Scout" rifles could fill that role, and some companies(mostly Steyr but years later Ruger and Savage) produced general purpose manually fed long guns as "Scout" rifles.

Thanks for reminding everyone of Jeff Cooper's "idea".

Since then two things happen:

The collapse of the Eastern Bloc lead to huge numbers of cheap .30 semiautomatics hitting the US market. The .30 cal is important; most US states require that the cartridge for deer hunting be a certain size or greater. With the market in the early 90s awash in $90 SKS rifles, they became extraordinarily popular as deer rifles. With that came accessories that turned them into AK-ish looking rifles, and from there it was much of a jump for slightly more expensive AK rifles made from surplus Eastern Bloc parts kits. You can sort of point at this as the transition between "traditional" semiautomatic hunting rifles and use of black rifles as hunting rifles.

By the time those AK parts kits ran out automation had really hit it's stride in AR-platform manufacturing and quality ARs were less expensive than AKs, at least in the US. Most ARs are gonna shoot just as well as traditional rifles like woodmasters, while the mounting options for optics are better and they run more reliably.

You got some parts right; but some parts wrong.

To start; we have to go way back to the 1870s which is when US gun culture really started to get impacted by the availability of military surplus; with massive quantities of civil war surplus firearms available, competing with new firearms.

However, the large scale adoption of smokeless powder and the metallic cartridge caused most civil war surplus to quickly degrade in value, given the massive advantages of metallic cartridges (you can easily load and fire in foul weather conditions without a misfire).

It's after the two world wars that milsurp really took off as a major market force in the US.

Remington's Model 700 when it was introduced in 1962 cost $114.95 or $139.95 in standard calibers.
The Winchester Model 70 cost $139 in standard calibers in 1962.
The Ruger .44 Magnum Carbine (an early precursor to the 10/22) was $108.00 in 1962.
Savage 4 .22LR bolt action: $35.95 in 1962.

Against this, you could buy through the mail and have it shipped to your front door, the following:

M1917 Enfield in .30-06: $29.95 in 1962.
M1903 Springfield: $39.95 in 1962.
M1 Carbine: $69.50 in 1962.
M1 Garand: $79.95 in 1962.
Sporterized Enfield with 4x Scope : $27.88 in 1962.

So let's review:

For the price of a cheap .22LR bolt action, you can have a full power .303 rifle with a 4x scope shipped to your house.

Moreover, you could order automatic pistols and revolvers (M1917 revolver in .45 Colt for $24.95 or a S&W Victory Model Revolver in .38 Spl for $32.88) and have them shipped straight to your door, with no background check needed.

The only thing needed to get your handgun shipped to you was:

HANDGUN PURCHASERS: Please send signed statment stating that you are 21 or over, not an alien, have not been convicted of a crime, not under indictment, not a fugitive or drug addict. Also send permit if your city or state requires

It caused a major fight between the gun manufacturers in the 1950s and the NRA.

The gun makers wanted cheap military surplus imports banned or severely restricted, while the NRA wanted them to continue.

Even after GCA 1968, there was still a lot of imports; and over the decades tons of fudds bought cheap milsurps and butchered them into hunting rifles; via rebluing them, having the receivers drilled for scope mounts, and replacing the original stocks with fudd hunting stocks.

Then in the 1980s, Chinese milsurps and new production stuff from NORINCO started to appear; a bit before the ultimate collapse of communism in the 1990s and the resultant flood of surplus mosin nagants, Tokarevs, SKS, etc from everyone else.

As for Lonestar's point about hunting regulations -- some states define legal hunting firearms by caliber, others by energy.

Maryland says:
Deer (Handgun): 6" barrel minimum, 700 foot-lbs muzzle energy.
Deer (Rifle): 1,200 foot-lbs muzzle energy

Ohio says:
Deer (handgun): 5" minimum barrel, .357 (9.06mm) or larger straight wall cartridge.
Deer (Rifle): .357 (9.06mm) to .50 caliber straight wall cartridge.

So what caused the ARMALYTE to become a hunting rifle?

Three things:

1.) Over a long period, the AR series slowly took over the National Matches at Camp Perry, OH -- the top shooting competition in the US -- from M1 and M14 pattern rifles; proving the series' accuracy.

2.) Marketing looking for new niches to sell more weapons.

3.) The 1994 AWB boosting the popularity of the weapon.

Regarding #2, Colt made the first inroads in 1993 with their R6830 Sporter in 7.62x39 Russian.



The 7.62x39 develops 1,500 foot pounds at the muzzle, compared to the 1,700 to 1,900 for the .30-30 Winchester; a classic deer round.

But not that many Colt 7.62x39 Sporters got made -- only 11,326.

But it did plant the seeds of "hey, maybe the AR can fire more than one caliber" along with Colt's 9mm Carbines (about 15,000 sold); leading to the following calibers over the years:

.30 Remington AR (introduced 2008 for the R-15 by Remington, commercial failure).
.458 SOCOM
.450 Bushmaster
.300 AAC Blackout
6.8 mm Remington Special Purpose Cartridge
6.5mm Grendel

But honestly? I think the biggest thing was the 1994 AWB.

Everyone rushed out to panic buy the ARMALYTE; and once they had it in their hands; they found that it was:

A.) Pretty accurate.
B.) You could clean it much easier and more safely than a traditional hunting rifle.
C.) The platform's modularity -- you can easily change things by swapping out the upper.
D.) The 'auto shop' motif of the AR -- there are only a few purpose built tools you need (wrenches or clamping blocks) to perform all level maintenance.

Basically if you shot out your barrel; it wasn't that hard to replace it -- and the AR15's auto-shop motif meant that properly headspacing a barrel was significantly easier and didn't need machining skills or a lathe (traditional rifles) and/or a 15 ton press (you need it to rebarrel a Kalashnikov pattern rifle).

And at some point, the free float barrel/handguard combo was introduced; increasing accuracy further.

You also had the Picatinny rail becoming standard, followed later by other standards ( Keymod, MLOK etc) allowing you to tacticool gadget up your rifle with whatever fancy stuff you wanted, without requiring a machine shop or high grade mechanic skills.

Plus, you could now mount scopes without any drilling required thanks to the Picatinny rail becoming standard -- it also moved into hunting rifles as well; it was that much of an improvement.

Even changing the stock; something requiring moderate skills with a traditional hunting rifle, was reduced to auto-parts grade skillset; further exploding the type's popularity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELtB_GRmMVI
You can easily install PSG-1 level micro adjustable stocks so you can be Solid Snake easily onto your AR.

[MKSheppard]

I don't hunt (it's dumb to wake up at 2am to go freeze your ass off when the meat market opens at 8am). But, I've got a Win .270 bolt action with a scope. It's heavy, kicks like a mule, but is an effective hunting rifle. And it has no other "use" besides shooting deer.

Win .270 bolt action with a scope?

You mean MILITARY SNIPER RIFLE (look up the USMC's use of the Winchester Model 70, followed by the Remington Model 700).

Old doods always talked about "You need a .30.30/.30-06 because it's a brush gun, it doesn't delfect, blah blah blah" so new hunters and shooters went for that because "that's what my dad used." But the ubiquitous of the AR-15 frame and it's popularity in CoD and other games has lead to the new young hunter "jazzing up" shooting/hunting sports like Tiger Woods turned golf away from the "only for old farts with bad fashion sense."

Plus; much of the US population lives on the East Coast; where ranges are short. Average white tail deer engagement distance is like 100 yards (91 meters). It's only if you live out West where ranges open up really long and you have extremely large game (elk, etc) that weigh a lot more than a deer.

[MKSheppard]

That all happened years ago. And the hardening actually worked. Unlike American attempts to ward off school shooters. So what's your point?

Years ago?

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society ... ary-school

Published: 6:30pm, 2 Sep, 2019
Eight children killed in knife attack at Chinese primary school
Two other pupils wounded in attack in Hubei province
Man, 40, is detained after incident on first day of new school year

A 40-year-old man was detained after eight children were stabbed to death in a knife attack at a primary school in central China on Monday, local authorities said.

Two other children were being treated for injuries following the incident at Chaotangpo Primary School in the town of Baiyangping, in Hubei province, on the first day of the new academic year.

The suspect, who police said was a local man surnamed Yu, was found by officers at the scene.

A spokeswoman for Enshi Central Hospital said wounded pupils were being treated there, while the local government said it was offering counselling.
The Xiaoxiang Morning Post reported that Yu had been given an early release from prison last year after serving a sentence for attempted murder. A man from the same village as Yu said the conviction had been for an incident in which Yu gouged out his former girlfriend’s eye.

“After he returned home last year, he displayed some mental problems,” the man, whose name was not given, was quoted as saying.

Knife attacks on schoolchildren are a regular occurrence in mainland China, with the perpetrators often saying they are motivated by a desire to take revenge on society.

Earlier this year, two pupils were killed in an attack at a school in Baijiaping in Hunan province, and in January a maintenance man in Beijing was detained over a hammer attack in which 20 pupils were wounded.

In April last year, nine were killed and more than a dozen wounded outside a middle school in northwestern Shaanxi province by an attacker who allegedly was a former pupil seeking revenge for having been bullied.

[Solauren]

You know, this entire debate/threat just proves that alot of Gun-advocates are idiots.

Now, why do I say that?

There is a massive difference between banning sales and new ownership of something, and going after existing ownership.

An example would be the 'Pitbull Ban' that was in effect in Ontario (no idea if it still is, but I see enough pit bulls around now, probably not). There was no way the government would get away with 'Breed is banned to breed or purchase, and all existing ones must be destroyed'. That's what there was a 'grandfather' clause for existing animals, ordered animals, and inherited animals.

Realistically, any ban on firearms would have the same. If only because of the logistical nightmare of trying to disarm the United States!
That, and any attempt to seize firearms would likely fail when it reached court.

Any ban would be on the manufacture, sale, purchase, import, (etc) of (whatever type of) new firearms, parts for same, ammo, and support devices.
But with a grandfather cause for existing firearms (etc) that were legally purchased, or in a non-operable condition.

Existing Gun-owners would get to keep their guns. New gun owners would be limited in what they could buy.
Toss in expanded background checks and the like, and EVERYONE WINS.

That's what any one that wants realistic gun control should and does expect. It's what realistic gun-owners should expect.

Unfortunately, the 'cold dead hands crowd' is entirely made of idiots.

[MKSheppard]

You know, this entire debate/threat just proves that alot of Gun-advocates are idiots.

Now, why do I say that?

There is a massive difference between banning sales and new ownership of something, and going after existing ownership.

An example would be the 'Pitbull Ban' that was in effect in Ontario (no idea if it still is, but I see enough pit bulls around now, probably not). There was no way the government would get away with 'Breed is banned to breed or purchase, and all existing ones must be destroyed'. That's what there was a 'grandfather' clause for existing animals, ordered animals, and inherited animals.

Realistically, any ban on firearms would have the same. If only because of the logistical nightmare of trying to disarm the United States!
That, and any attempt to seize firearms would likely fail when it reached court.

Any ban would be on the manufacture, sale, purchase, import, (etc) of (whatever type of) new firearms, parts for same, ammo, and support devices.
But with a grandfather cause for existing firearms (etc) that were legally purchased, or in a non-operable condition.

Existing Gun-owners would get to keep their guns. New gun owners would be limited in what they could buy.
Toss in expanded background checks and the like, and EVERYONE WINS.

That's what any one that wants realistic gun control should and does expect. It's what realistic gun-owners should expect.

Unfortunately, the 'cold dead hands crowd' is entirely made of idiots.

Solaruen....

Virginia Governor Ralph Northam after the VA Beach Municipial Shooting, called for a special gun control session of the VA legislature in July 2019.

The special gun control session lasted only about an hour or so before they voted to adjourn until November 18; well after the elections coming up in Virginia in 2019.

One of the bills put forth in this session was

HB 4021 Assault firearms, certain firearm magazines, trigger activators, & silencers; prohibiting sale, etc..
LINK TO IT IN VIRGINIA LEGISLATIVE INFORMATION SYSTEM

It defined assault weapon as:

A semi auto center fire rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has ONE (1) of the following features:
a folding or telescoping stock

a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the rifle

a thumbhole stock

a second handgrip or a protruding grip that can be held by the non-trigger hand

a bayonet mount

a grenade launcher

a flare launcher

a silencer

a flash suppressor

a muzzle brake

a muzzle compensator

a threaded barrel capable of accepting a silencer, a flash suppressor, a muzzle brake, or a muzzle compensator

and

Any part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert, modify, or otherwise alter a firearm into an assault firearm, or any combination of parts that may be readily assembled into an assault firearm.

Summary:

Expands the definition of "assault firearm" and prohibits any person from importing, selling, transferring, manufacturing, purchasing, possessing, or transporting an assault firearm. A violation is a Class 6 felony.

The bill prohibits a dealer from selling, renting, trading, or transferring from his inventory an assault firearm to any person.

The bill makes it a Class 6 felony to import, sell, transfer, manufacture, purchase, possess, or transport large-capacity firearm magazines, silencers, and trigger activators, all defined in the bill.

Any person who legally owns an assault firearm, large-capacity firearm magazine, silencer, or trigger activator on November 1, 2019, may retain possession until July 1, 2020.

During that time, such person shall (i) render the assault firearm, large-capacity firearm magazine, silencer, or trigger activator inoperable; (ii) remove the assault firearm, large-capacity firearm magazine, silencer, or trigger activator from the Commonwealth; (iii) transfer the assault firearm, large-capacity firearm magazine, silencer, or trigger activator to a person outside the Commonwealth who is not prohibited from possessing it; or (iv) surrender the assault firearm, large-capacity firearm magazine, silencer, or trigger activator to a state or local law-enforcement agency.

Again, the well is thoroughly completely poisoned.

[Lonestar]

Realistically, any ban on firearms would have the same. If only because of the logistical nightmare of trying to disarm the United States!
That, and any attempt to seize firearms would likely fail when it reached court.

Any ban would be on the manufacture, sale, purchase, import, (etc) of (whatever type of) new firearms, parts for same, ammo, and support devices.
But with a grandfather cause for existing firearms (etc) that were legally purchased, or in a non-operable condition.

Existing Gun-owners would get to keep their guns. New gun owners would be limited in what they could buy.
Toss in expanded background checks and the like, and EVERYONE WINS.

That's what any one that wants realistic gun control should and does expect. It's what realistic gun-owners should expect.

Unfortunately, the 'cold dead hands crowd' is entirely made of idiots.

Last time we had a Federal AWB the primary author went around telling people that if she had had the votes it would have been mandatory buyback.

Both Obama and H. Clinton said they would "look to Australia"(which had a mandatory buyback of all semi automatics) for gun control. Maybe they mean mandatory buyback or not, but they chose a example where the cornerstone was confiscation.

At a certain point, if people keep saying "We would take your guns if we thought we could get away with it, but we can't", it makes people think that they are serious about seizing personal property.


BTW, the VA AWB this past spring that failed had no provision for grandfathering in it.