Building a Mosque near Ground Zero.

[Kanastrous]

*shrug* what else can I do?

[Thanas]

*shrug* what else can I do?

Slink off and never come to the thread again like others do?

So yeah, big of you.

[Master of Ossus]

Thanas, you and I fundamentally disagree about the proper way to evaluate claims of discrimination. You seem to believe that it should be measured by asking people how they feel; I think it should be measured with reference to things like economic success, which I view as a more objective way to determine the extent of discrimination affecting them.

Except that a lot of the people who are most pissed off are the sort who will never trust Muslims. People who think what they're building is a 'monument to terrorism.' Their mere existence is offensive to those people, so why should they even be considered in this?

Because these are the very sorts of people that the Cordoba Initiative is trying to reach out to. If their only goal is to get people who already side with them on their side, then they're just preaching to the choir and needn't do anything. They claim, however, that their goal is outreach, which is only achieved by engaging with people who aren't predisposed to side with them.

[Gil Hamilton]

That's pretty damn ironic considering you are judging the Cordoba Initiative to be dumb and liable to offend people based on how those people feel rather than the objective effects on their neighborhood by the Initiative investing there. Is not people starting construction on an otherwise ruined and abandoned lot to make a community center a positive thing for them, economically?

[Corpsman]

I suspect that a lot of you would be pissed as holy hell if it was a Catholic Church built at the site of a bombed abortion clinic.

[Oscar Wilde]

I suspect that a lot of you would be pissed as holy hell if it was a Catholic Church built at the site of a bombed abortion clinic.

Is it built at the site, or two blocks away? Are the people building it attempting to decry the radical, crazy people who bombed the clinic?

Please elaborate on this hypothetical situation.

[Hillary]

I suspect that a lot of you would be pissed as holy hell if it was a Catholic Church built at the site of a bombed abortion clinic.

If the people building it said things like "hur, hur, victory is ours", yes a lot of people would damn such a project. However if their approach was more this

When Kahn’s organization found a vacant property on Park Place, the former site of a Burlington Coat Factory that had been damaged by airplane debris on September 11, 2001, the potent symbolism of the site also became a compelling rationale for the project. “We decided we wanted to look at the legacy of 9/11 and do something positive,” she explained in an interview. Her group represents moderate Muslims who want “to reverse to trend of extremism and the kind of ideology that the extremists are spreading.”

then there would be no complaints.

Of course, the likelihood of any such project being reported in the same way as this one in the American media is vanishingly small.

[Hillary]

Except that a lot of the people who are most pissed off are the sort who will never trust Muslims. People who think what they're building is a 'monument to terrorism.' Their mere existence is offensive to those people, so why should they even be considered in this?

Because these are the very sorts of people that the Cordoba Initiative is trying to reach out to. If their only goal is to get people who already side with them on their side, then they're just preaching to the choir and needn't do anything. They claim, however, that their goal is outreach, which is only achieved by engaging with people who aren't predisposed to side with them.

Do you actually think that any action - apart from emigrating or converting to Christianity - would appease them? You are dead wrong, the Cordoba Intstitute is not trying to reach out to the knee-jerking redneck-types (what's the point), they are reaching out to those who are prepared to listen.

[Thanas]

Thanas, you and I fundamentally disagree about the proper way to evaluate claims of discrimination. You seem to believe that it should be measured by asking people how they feel; I think it should be measured with reference to things like economic success, which I view as a more objective way to determine the extent of discrimination affecting them.

Discrimination is a perception issue. The most-well earning jew can still be discriminated against in Germany in the 20s. Would you, based on their earnings at the time, say that this is purely a matter of economics or do you agree that discrimination is a subjective thing?

Also, Gil Hamilton has also pointed out the deep irony of your statement, so consider his words mine as well.

Because these are the very sorts of people that the Cordoba Initiative is trying to reach out to. If their only goal is to get people who already side with them on their side, then they're just preaching to the choir and needn't do anything. They claim, however, that their goal is outreach, which is only achieved by engaging with people who aren't predisposed to side with them.

Their goal is to reach moderates or people willing to listen to reason. You might think that all those people are already on their side, but I doubt it, given how little exposure Americans have to Islam outside of the mainstream media, which focuses on radical Islam almost exclusively.

Or how much coverage did the Letter of the muslim to the pope get?

[Ryan Thunder]

You know, I started out thinking this was a bad idea, but now that just seems like a silly position to take on it.

[General Zod]

I suspect that a lot of you would be pissed as holy hell if it was a Catholic Church built at the site of a bombed abortion clinic.

I suspect you have nothing to base this on and are simply incapable of compartmentalizing arguments.

[eion]

A little perspective is always a good thing. When one hears "Mosque to be built at ground zero!" All sorts of images pop into one’s mind. With a healthy application of Google Earth and some rough Paint work I hope to make the true impact of the “Ground Zero Mosque” clear.

Let's start at street level:

To the left you'll see the former Burlington Coat Factory soon to be converted into the 13 story community center and mosque. The arrow points south towards ground zero, which is about 2 blocks south. Please take special note of the height of the building to the right of the site.

Let's go up a hundred feet or so:

Outlined in red is the approximate location of the mosque site, in yellow the opposing office building from the first image, in blue the Old Post Office Building, and in orange the outline of the former site of 5 WTC. Please note that there are two very large buildings in the sightline between the mosque and 5 WTC. Also note the surrounding buildings of the site, meaning it will be rather difficult to see the mosque from anywhere but on its street in any direction.

Now let's rotate around for a different view:

The outline in red is an approximation of the 13 storey mosque on completion using the windows of the Old Post Office building as reference. It will actually be a bit shorter but it matters not for as you can see it is impossible for anyone standing at ground level (or even several dozen storeys up) around ground zero to even see the mosque since there are those two quite tall buildings in the way.

So to say they are building a mosque at ground zero is not only untrue, but after taking the location and surrounding buildings into account it seems that you'll have to actually be looking for the building in order to find it. No one who visits the site will be "forced" to view the structure.

[Phantasee]

In a city as packed tight as New York, you'd think people would realize that things are going to end up close together whether you want them to or not. What are they gonna do, put the mosque in Yonkers?

[Skylon]

Thank you Eion. The way I first heard this presented I thought it was downright odd. Mosque at "Ground Zero" conjures up images of putting a Mosque right at the heart of whatever memorial is being built (whenever the fuck that will be finished, probably when I'm near the age of fifty), when that is far from it. This a half-truth at best, an outright lie at worst. But certainly a clear example of racist BS.

[Master of Ossus]

Discrimination is a perception issue. The most-well earning jew can still be discriminated against in Germany in the 20s. Would you, based on their earnings at the time, say that this is purely a matter of economics or do you agree that discrimination is a subjective thing?

Also, Gil Hamilton has also pointed out the deep irony of your statement, so consider his words mine as well.

The difference is that you two seem to be claiming that "discrimination" is synonymous with "not being liked." You have a right to not be discriminated against--that's an objective, measurable fact. You don't have a right to have people like you--that's completely subjective. But if you ARE trying to get people to like you, offending a significant fraction of them is not a good way to go about doing it.

Their goal is to reach moderates or people willing to listen to reason. You might think that all those people are already on their side, but I doubt it, given how little exposure Americans have to Islam outside of the mainstream media, which focuses on radical Islam almost exclusively.

Or how much coverage did the Letter of the muslim to the pope get?

I think it got about as much coverage as the recent Catholic Church reforms that were described as a step towards addressing their various abuse scandals. What does this have to do with anything?

[Thanas]

Discrimination is a perception issue. The most-well earning jew can still be discriminated against in Germany in the 20s. Would you, based on their earnings at the time, say that this is purely a matter of economics or do you agree that discrimination is a subjective thing?

Also, Gil Hamilton has also pointed out the deep irony of your statement, so consider his words mine as well.

The difference is that you two seem to be claiming that "discrimination" is synonymous with "not being liked."

I wonder how you can strawman my position that way.

You have a right to not be discriminated against--that's an objective, measurable fact. You don't have a right to have people like you--that's completely subjective.

No, discrimination is not just an objective meausurement. You are not discriminated against unless you realize you are, which is a subjective process.

If people have the perception they are discriminated against - which in this case, clearly would be the case if you would forbid them building the mosque, which is discrimination no matter how you cut it, objective or subjective - then encouraging that perception is just not that smart.

But if you ARE trying to get people to like you, offending a significant fraction of them is not a good way to go about doing it.

What significant fraction?

I think it got about as much coverage as the recent Catholic Church reforms that were described as a step towards addressing their various abuse scandals. What does this have to do with anything?

Media coverage tends to focus mostly on radical muslims etc.

[Master of Ossus]

No, discrimination is not just an objective meausurement. You are not discriminated against unless you realize you are, which is a subjective process.

Wait, what? So if a major company fires everyone over age 40, and no one under age 40, then that's not age discrimination unless they compare notes and figure out why they were all fired? And what about all the whiners who claim that they were discriminated against after they were fired? Are all of them discriminated against, even if there is clear documentation detailing why they were terminated that has nothing to do with discrimination? Whether or not you acknowledge it, people pull out the discrimination card all the time, even when no objective observer would determine that discrimination has occurred (except for you, apparently, since their perception of discrimination is somehow considered sufficient to prove it). Sometimes they miss discrimination even when it actually is occurring. Discrimination has little to do with perception.

It is objectively identifiable.

Media coverage tends to focus mostly on radical muslims etc.

So... therefore...?

Media coverage focuses on radicals in everything. When was the last time you saw a moderate environmentalist group on television?

[Tom_Kalbfus]

Yeah I have been hearing about this for some time on the right wing blogs. It has been trumpeted as "Proof" that Obama is a secret Muslim agent working to over-through america, and this mosque is a "Payoff"

Really it is just more evidence that the right ring truly have no understanding of how to reach out to other people, nor desire for it. Building a mosque near ground zero if anything is a smack to Terrorists because it shows America is willing to forgive, it also shows (one would think) a message that not all Muslims are Terrorists.

How does it do that? It is a Mosque to terrorist Muslims just as much as it is to nonterrorist muslims. I also think that before Americans can forgive them, those responsible must seek forgiveness and mend their ways, I have seen no evidence of that.

There are plenty of places for them to build a mosque, they don't have to do it in the faces of the victims of the 9/11 attack, do they? I think Muslims must do more to combat terrorism and ostracise those among them who support terrorism, rather than build muslim monuments in our faces.

[Tom_Kalbfus]

Thanas, you and I fundamentally disagree about the proper way to evaluate claims of discrimination. You seem to believe that it should be measured by asking people how they feel; I think it should be measured with reference to things like economic success, which I view as a more objective way to determine the extent of discrimination affecting them.

Discrimination is a perception issue. The most-well earning jew can still be discriminated against in Germany in the 20s. Would you, based on their earnings at the time, say that this is purely a matter of economics or do you agree that discrimination is a subjective thing?

Also, Gil Hamilton has also pointed out the deep irony of your statement, so consider his words mine as well.

Because these are the very sorts of people that the Cordoba Initiative is trying to reach out to. If their only goal is to get people who already side with them on their side, then they're just preaching to the choir and needn't do anything. They claim, however, that their goal is outreach, which is only achieved by engaging with people who aren't predisposed to side with them.

Their goal is to reach moderates or people willing to listen to reason. You might think that all those people are already on their side, but I doubt it, given how little exposure Americans have to Islam outside of the mainstream media, which focuses on radical Islam almost exclusively.

Or how much coverage did the Letter of the muslim to the pope get?

Radical Islam is the branch of Islam that kills, thus we pay attention to it, if all they did was mind their own business and pray in their mosques we wouldn't know much about it, and why should we? There are very few Muslims in America, there are fewer muslims than there are jews, there are very few muslims in the whole western hemisphere, the only point at which muslims became important in American history is the point at which they started attacking and killing Americans, before that muslims kept to themselves, so we had very little reason to learn about them. When people start blowing themselves up and killing people, we naturally ask the question, who are these people? Our introduction to Islam began with the Iranian Revolution, and our education continued with each attack against us. So you wonder why we might have a negative opinion of Islam?

[eion]

How does it do that? It is a Mosque to terrorist Muslims just as much as it is to nonterrorist muslims. I also think that before Americans can forgive them, those responsible must seek forgiveness and mend their ways, I have seen no evidence of that.

There are plenty of places for them to build a mosque, they don't have to do it in the faces of the victims of the 9/11 attack, do they? I think Muslims must do more to combat terrorism and ostracise those among them who support terrorism, rather than build muslim monuments in our faces.

You obviously didn't look at those photos I posted. They are not building it in anyone's faces. In fact, if you didn't go out looking for it you'd probably never see it. I would call it a respectful distance from the ground zero site, and considering the purpose of the Cordoba House is to show people that not all Muslims are terrorists. Being located NEAR ground zero is fundamental to that purpose.

Considering there are chapels in the area struck at the Pentagon, as well as several churches and synagogues in similar proximity to ground zero I have no problem with the location. Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if anyone's every tabulated how many Muslims (not counting the assholes flying the planes of course, who I wouldn't even consider Muslims, just murderers) died during the 9/11 attacks? Should we not honor their sacrifice as well?

And again, the whole point of the Cordoba House is to establish a facility that "promotes tolerance, reflecting the rich diversity of New York City"

Saying it is a mosque to terrorist and non-terrorist Muslims (also known as the vast majority of the Muslim world) is like saying a southern Baptist church is a church to racist and non-racist white people.

[General Zod]

Radical Islam is the branch of Islam that kills, thus we pay attention to it, if all they did was mind their own business and pray in their mosques we wouldn't know much about it, and why should we? There are very few Muslims in America, there are fewer muslims than there are jews, there are very few muslims in the whole western hemisphere, the only point at which muslims became important in American history is the point at which they started attacking and killing Americans, before that muslims kept to themselves, so we had very little reason to learn about them. When people start blowing themselves up and killing people, we naturally ask the question, who are these people? Our introduction to Islam began with the Iranian Revolution, and our education continued with each attack against us. So you wonder why we might have a negative opinion of Islam?

"Very few"? There are approximately 2.5 million Muslims in the US. Roughly on par with Utah, Nevada and New Mexico individually in terms of population. The fact that you seem to think nobody knew about Islam until the Iranian revolution is hilarious, though.

[eion]

There's also the fact that Tom seems to think that Muslim = Middle East. The fact is only about 25 - 41% of American Muslims are of Middle Eastern extraction. About 1/4 are African American and another 34% are from South Asia.

[Gil Hamilton]

*finds a drink entirely so that he can do a spit take* Did that guy just say that that the Iranian Revolution was the first time Americans heard about Islam? Hell, who does he think was supporting the Shah of Iran BEFORE the Iranian Revolution and in fact put him in power? Tom, google "Operation Ajax" and come back when you aren't saying stupid things.

Secondly, the people in question are building a community center that includes, amongst other things, a mosque on land they already own several blocks away from the Ground Zero site, turning what is an abandoned building that no one else wanted to repair into something productive for the neighbor. Oh, those dastardly Muslims, how dare they take part in the restoration of that section of Manhattan with their capital and good intentions! This is the question that MoO has avoided but maybe you'll answer; how is their investment in that community been anything but positive? No one else was looking to buy a damaged building there and these guys not only at going to be doing something with it, but are doing it for exactly the thing that people accuse moderate muslims of never doing; reaching out and making themselves heard.

[Sarevok]

To all those who oppose the mosque. Have you ever met any of the muslims living, working and studying in the NYC area ? They are people like you dealing with same American way of life as you are. They do same type of jobs, they go to same universities, they pay taxes like you and most of the time they dress and live like you. Its possible you don't notice a moderate muslim because that's like spotting a moderate jew on the street. A fair skinned Pakistani guy or gal would pass for white American on the streets. Maybe you guys are thinking muslims in America = burqa wearing women and bearded men with Keffiyeh on their heads. They are as much as minority as a traditionally dressed christians or jews.

[General Zod]

*finds a drink entirely so that he can do a spit take* Did that guy just say that that the Iranian Revolution was the first time Americans heard about Islam? Hell, who does he think was supporting the Shah of Iran BEFORE the Iranian Revolution and in fact put him in power? Tom, google "Operation Ajax" and come back when you aren't saying stupid things.

He's obviously never heard of the Nation of Islam before. Which was founded almost 50 years before the Iranian Revolution.