Baltimore Protests and Riots

[Vendetta]

- Require that at least 40% of the force are minority-recruited.

I would say require that each force match the ethnic makeup of the communities it polices as well as possible, and that recruitment should be as local as possible.

Draw police from the communities they serve and they will have an easier time gaining the trust of those communities.

[cmdrjones]

US police kill the population at one hundred times the rate UK police do, twenty times the rate of Canadian police, and somehow nobody thinks this is a problem.

US Policing is broken

Plenty of people think this is a problem. The problem though is nobody knows the solution or can even agree on the cause.

Police are of course responding no longer as police but more like soldiers in many instances. They are in many cases former soldiers and never got over the mindset of being a soldier, treating everyone as a possible enemy combatant, as a person in a war. Policing and soldiering are two highly different professions despite the tools and uniforms becoming increasingly the same.

But cops aren't shooting people just because they are paranoid bastards who think every Wii mote, airshit gun, pointed finger, or anything else vaguely gun shaped (if even that) is a dangerous tool held in the hand of a insurgen........I mean citizen. Violent crime is a problem in America.

But why is it a problem? Do the availability of guns make America so violent (despite countries liked Switzerland and Israelland having pretty high rates of gun ownership thanks to military arms for citizens not to mention the Swiss's high private gun ownership rates)? Does poverty, thousands of desperate people who have to turn to crime just to survive? Unfair laws that destroy lives over the most minor of offenses? A broken prison system that is for profit alot of time and rarely tries to rehabilitate a person, meaning they are likely to reoffend? Endemic racism? Lack of opportunities to where inner city youths and backwoods white trash are both making or selling drugs because they are too ill educated, have too much discrimination against them, and just lack a means of escaping their situation to be able to do anything else? Mexicans and Indians stealing our jerbs? Because minorities are naturally violent and dance better then white bread people because of twitch nerves? People so scared of police and the consequences of being caught that they are more likely to fight back rather then being arrested peaceably?

Ask 10 people why America is so violent and you will probably get 10 answers. Unless you ask Eurocommies, they will just say its because Americans are Americans (I kid, kinda).

But don't think the fact we have poor black kids in the ghetto armed with auto weapons killing each other over sugar, spice, and cocaine and poor white people in the holler armed with double barrel boom stick killing each other over cousin fucking and meth to excuse the police.

The police are definitely to blame for blowing away people just at the mere sight of a gun. For fucks sake the British are practically scared shitless over just the mere sight of goddamn ammo and the bobbies won't usually shot a dude dead for holding a gun or gun shaped object (of course that might also be because most Brit cops are armed with billy clubs and their charming British attitudes).

Policing needs reformed, most definitely. However more needs to be done then just say "cops suck" and leave it at that, drop the mic and walk out. One needs to also find out why crime is so high that has the cops scared like an upper middle class white woman around black men or Felicia Day around dudes in video game shirts.

'Why is it a problem?' Ah the great riddle.... Poverty: Partial answer... see India for heartbreaking poverty, yet a functioning democracy. See also POland and to a certain extent Russia. (Russia has its criminal organizations, but I haven't heard of any riots and mass insurrections against the security apparatus. When something goes boom in Russia, its usually terrorism or Meteor related.)
Unfair laws? Check. Broken Prison system? CHeck.
Endemic Rascism? Check. (more on this in a moment)
Lack of education and opportunities? Check.
immigration? Double check.
Racial differences (dancing? Funny.) I say.... possible check?
Fear or corrupt cops? (Basic police state stuff) Check check and check...

IMHO as a soldier who is now involved in civilian security I would say these are all contributing factors. But, most of them fall under the umbrells of (drumroll) a cultural problem, which makes it systemic. This can only be changed (barring catastrophe) a the same way it was changed TO the current state of affairs. Over generations.

[cmdrjones]

- Require that at least 40% of the force are minority-recruited.

I would say require that each force match the ethnic makeup of the communities it polices as well as possible, and that recruitment should be as local as possible.

Draw police from the communities they serve and they will have an easier time gaining the trust of those communities.

And if they can't meet the standards?

[Thanas]

That is why I had 40% as a starting point.

[Wild Zontargs]

And if they can't meet the standards?

Then the standards are racist and must be changed, obviously.

[T]he test, which is mostly multiple-choice questions, is inherently discriminatory because blacks and Hispanics historically do worse on such exams compared with white and Asian candidates.

[Vendetta]

- Require that at least 40% of the force are minority-recruited.

I would say require that each force match the ethnic makeup of the communities it polices as well as possible, and that recruitment should be as local as possible.

Draw police from the communities they serve and they will have an easier time gaining the trust of those communities.

And if they can't meet the standards?

If US Police had standards we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? The standards at the moment are "how to deny culpability when you accidentally beat a black man to death for looking at you funny".

[Patroklos]

- Disbar soldiers from becoming policemen or enact strict quotas, like "no more than 40% of the force can be ex-soldiers and no two soldiers can go on patrol together."

Despite this being morally and constitutionally questionably, its also irrelevant. Current police forces are nowhere near this number. 20% is the only number I could find but that itself is questionable.

- Make patrols double. Two officers alone are way better than just one guy who might get scared and do something regrettable.

This is a funding issue. It can be done, but then again when rural areas try to raise funds do accomplish things like this they also run into trouble with certain crowds a la Ferguson. Also we just had a thread about a small town police force where people claimed 6 full and part time officers were too much for the 1000ish population. If you want 100% coverage plus double patrols some communities won't be able to satisfy both of those demands.

- Require that at least 40% of the force are minority-recruited.

Even when they try and do this volunteers are in short supply. Its also ridiculous given many communities don't have minorities make up 40% of their population.

- In double patrol pair, as a rule, one minority member with one non-minority member

Morally ridiculous. Baltimore's police force is 50% black so a good portion of their patrols have both as minorities. This isn't the problem.

- Try to hire as many women as possible. You'd be amazed at how de-escalating female police members are (seen this myself in action)

Stupid. At most proportional. Both men and women come with pluses and minus.

- Force officers to conform to the threat evaluation protocol used by European police agencies (three step system, a pyramid of escalation etc.)

Three? You guys are behind the ball. The US military and police currently use a six tiered system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force_continuum

[Thanas]

Despite this being morally and constitutionally questionably, its also irrelevant. Current police forces are nowhere near this number. 20% is the only number I could find but that itself is questionable.

Source?

This is a funding issue. It can be done, but then again when rural areas try to raise funds do accomplish things like this they also run into trouble with certain crowds a la Ferguson. Also we just had a thread about a small town police force where people claimed 6 full and part time officers were too much for the 1000ish population. If you want 100% coverage plus double patrols some communities won't be able to satisfy both of those demands.

Then sacrifice the coverage or increase funding. Maybe spend less money on things like tanks or swat teams then.

Even when they try and do this volunteers are in short supply.

Source?

Its also ridiculous given many communities don't have minorities make up 40% of their population.

This matters how?

Morally ridiculous. Baltimore's police force is 50% black so a good portion of their patrols have both as minorities. This isn't the problem.

You fail to get the point. Force mixing.

- Try to hire as many women as possible. You'd be amazed at how de-escalating female police members are (seen this myself in action)

Stupid. At most proportional. Both men and women come with pluses and minus.[/quote]
So what? The point still stands.

Three? You guys are behind the ball. The US military and police currently use a six tiered system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force_continuum

If they do, then it apparently is ignored given the cases here.


So what is your solution, anyway?

[Vendetta]

The problem isn't that there isn't a system of threat assessment and force escalation, the problem is that the Police's adversarial relationship with the communities they police means that officers percieve greater threats and escalate faster than they should and face few to no consequences for getting it wrong.

As in Germany, every police shooting should be investigated by prosecutors, and not prosecutors who are friendly to the force either, an independent body empowered to investigate police use of force. (US police use more ammunition per person shot than German police use all year)

[Patroklos]

Despite this being morally and constitutionally questionably, its also irrelevant. Current police forces are nowhere near this number. 20% is the only number I could find but that itself is questionable.

Source?

As I said, in short supply. The 20% is from here. The number is undoubtedly far lower than that but I used it to be safe.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/career ... ement.aspx

This is a funding issue. It can be done, but then again when rural areas try to raise funds do accomplish things like this they also run into trouble with certain crowds a la Ferguson. Also we just had a thread about a small town police force where people claimed 6 full and part time officers were too much for the 1000ish population. If you want 100% coverage plus double patrols some communities won't be able to satisfy both of those demands.

Then sacrifice the coverage or increase funding. Maybe spend less money on things like tanks or swat teams then.

I am simply pointing out the problems. And most people would agree one man patrol coverage is better than zero coverage.

Even when they try and do this volunteers are in short supply.
Source?

http://newpittsburghcourieronline.com/2 ... -officers/

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/stor ... /21939183/

http://publicsource.org/from-the-source ... UDraR4pDOQ

You will note one of the often cited solutions is to not hire local, which is in contrast to another solution you put forward.

Its also ridiculous given many communities don't have minorities make up 40% of their population.

This matters how?

Because I thought your solution was to make the police reflect their community? What was your point if not that?

Morally ridiculous. Baltimore's police force is 50% black so a good portion of their patrols have both as minorities. This isn't the problem.

You fail to get the point. Force mixing.

Do you have any proof this is someone a root cause of any of these problems? The Baltimore residents are quoted over and over saying the race of the police officers is not an issue, it's that they are police period.

- Try to hire as many women as possible. You'd be amazed at how de-escalating female police members are (seen this myself in action)

Stupid. At most proportional. Both men and women come with pluses and minus.

So what? The point still stands.

Not as you wrote it. From your wording it appears you would be cool with a 100% female force.

Three? You guys are behind the ball. The US military and police currently use a six tiered system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_force_continuum

If they do, then it apparently is ignored given the cases here.[/quote[

In SOME of the cases here (ie not Michael Brown for instance). In the vast majority, in the 99.99% realm, they are working just fine. Its actually entirely irrelevant to this particular case which if there is wrongdoing then its just plain out abuse after arrest.

So what is your solution, anyway?

I don't think we agree on the problem. I see no statistically supported systemic problem in policing. What I see is crime overwhelmed communities being policed as required and the nature of that policing leading to what we see as an inevitability. Zero defect seeking is idiocy. Decrease the need for policing and the severity of that policing and you will have less of these incidents. There are lots of ways to do that, and they come from a lot of corners. But the short answer to your question is economics.

[Vendetta]

I don't think we agree on the problem. I see no statistically supported systemic problem in policing. What I see is crime overwhelmed communities being policed as required and the nature of that policing leading to what we see as an inevitability. Zero defect seeking is idiocy. Decrease the need for policing and the severity of that policing and you will have less of these incidents. There are lots of ways to do that, and they come from a lot of corners. But the short answer to your question is economics.

United States police kill more people per month than police in the United Kingdom have killed ever.

In the last three years, 3500 people in the US have been killed by police whilst only seven have been killed in the UK.

That is, adjusting for population, one hundred times the rate of death at police hands.

There is not 100 times the amount of crime in the United States.

Black people in the US are three times more likely to receive a custodial sentence and receive longer sentences for the same crimes than white people.

If you do not think that these are systemic problems in policing then you are either catastrophically ignorant or a moron of the highest order.

[Flagg]

Honestly, any white American speaking ill of the protesters (and yes, protesters can be violent and participate in rioting) should be criticizing the fact that they are destroying their own neighborhoods, and not the nicer ones the cops live in. Any other criticism can be directed here:

Yeah yeah, white people are all collectively guilty and thus have a responsibility to accept violence against the cops/rich people.

Shove it up your ass. I try to base my sense of morality on a respect for the lives and rights of other people, regardless of their profession, amount of wealth, or race. And I try to be fucking consistent about it, which requires me to condemn the rioters as strenuously as I condemn police brutality (and I do condemn it).

Not at all what I said, imbecile. What I said is that white people, due to the fact that they have never lived in constant fear of the police, to the point that when their male children reach a certain age they have to talk to them about how best not to be beaten or outright murdered by the police, have not anything close to an inkling of understanding the mindset of the minority, but especially black, population in this country and thus don't get a fucking say in the matter because of your white privilege. You can condemn police brutality until the cows come home, but considering how many cases of outright police MURDER compared to the number of riots there are, the rioters have it heads and tails over the cops morally, who are usually so heavy handed when dealing with nonviolent protests, they spark the riots in the first place.

Unless you've lived in constant legitimate fear of the people hired, given a gun, a badge, and lawful authority over you. They know (and you know) they can ruin your life by filling out a form. The situation is so bad now that they know they can murder you (because maybe they just felt like it), and odds are the worst that'll happen is a few days or weeks of paid vacation, maybe a few months riding a desk and a couple of "therapy sessions".

I'm scared of the police at times, even though I'm a white man. And I think I have reason to be. I have multiple white family members who have sued the police (I'm not going to go into details here because that's personal). Though this is in Canada, not the US. No, I'm not saying the treatment of white people by cops is equivalent. But everyone has something to fear from abusive cops. However, that doesn't mean we should be rioting and giving innocent people something else to fear.

Oh boo fucking hoo, the white Canadian has been a'scared of the Canadian police who IIRC don't have anything close to a cunthairs' amount of the issues dealing with abuse and murder when it comes to their population at large, let alone their minority population can cry me a goddamned river, then drown in it.

Unless it's on video. Then you may have to go through a grand jury to not be indicted, a complicated legal procedure before a Judge to not get indicted, or god forbid, get indicted on involuntary manslaughter (even if the victim has holes punched only in the back or is shot execution style in the back of the head) only to go through a 1-2 week trial to finally be acquitted and put back on the job.

And of course they know damned well that you know it too.

So unless you've lived that, anything you have to say against the protestors better be geographic, or you can eat my ass.

See above.

Yes, I've seen the above, in which a white Canadian condemns the black Americans fed up with the American police beating and killing them without any repercussions in the vast as the distance between the Earth and the Sun number of cases, who if they can't see why they need to shut the fuck up because they don't know shit about shit about what is currently going on in the country I've lived in my entire life, needs to experience life as a black American for a decade or 2 to gain perspective. If you live past the first few weeks anyway.

[Patroklos]

United States police kill more people per month than police in the United Kingdom have killed ever.

In the last three years, 3500 people in the US have been killed by police whilst only seven have been killed in the UK.

That is, adjusting for population, one hundred times the rate of death at police hands.

There is not 100 times the amount of crime in the United States.

100 times? No, but our homicide rate alone is five times higher.

A UK comparison is irrelevant to describing a systemic problem. The UK and the US have different cultures and different expectations of what law and order as well as the enforcement of it mean. You have to prove that within the subject country, and crime rates and police shooting rates and police complaint rates even amongst communities of color vary wildly.

Black people in the US are three times more likely to receive a custodial sentence and receive longer sentences for the same crimes than white people.

The same crimes, but with the same records? That's the little hiccup in all of those comparisons. Show me a statistic that comes to that conclusion and included that in their methodology. I would also be curious if they are controlling for the jurisdictions the sentences are given in, I suspect not.

I am not the first to ask these questions by a long shot:

Still, the findings drew criticism from advocacy groups and researchers, who said the commission's focus on the very end of the criminal-justice process ignored possible bias at earlier stages, such as when a person is arrested and charged, or enters into a plea deal with prosecutors.

"They've only got data on this final slice of the process, but they are still missing crucial parts of the criminal-justice process," said Sonja Starr, a law professor at the University of Michigan, who has analyzed sentencing and arrest data and found no marked increase in racial disparity since 2005.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... #printMode

If you do not think that these are systemic problems in policing then you are either catastrophically ignorant or a moron of the highest order.

All I ask is that you prove it, otherwise you are just a lying asshole.

[KroLazuxy_87]

I'd like to jump in and highlight the bit of the conversation regarding funding. A lot of the money being used to buy the military gear for police is coming from the sale of assets seized in drug busts. Source
The documentary The Culture High examined the ineffectiveness of the 'drug war' in America and the resulting culture changes - police militarization, greatly increased imprisonment of non-violent offenders, marginalization of the poor (and the ethnicities that are more commonly among the poor). If you've got the time to sit and watch it, I'd recommend you do. Available on Netflix

[KroLazuxy_87]

Black people in the US are three times more likely to receive a custodial sentence and receive longer sentences for the same crimes than white people.

The same crimes, but with the same records? That's the little hiccup in all of those comparisons. Show me a statistic that comes to that conclusion and included that in their methodology. I would also be curious if they are controlling for the jurisdictions the sentences are given in, I suspect not.

I am not the first to ask these questions by a long shot:

Still, the findings drew criticism from advocacy groups and researchers, who said the commission's focus on the very end of the criminal-justice process ignored possible bias at earlier stages, such as when a person is arrested and charged, or enters into a plea deal with prosecutors.

"They've only got data on this final slice of the process, but they are still missing crucial parts of the criminal-justice process," said Sonja Starr, a law professor at the University of Michigan, who has analyzed sentencing and arrest data and found no marked increase in racial disparity since 2005.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014241 ... #printMode

The first line in the article you provided says "Prison sentences of black men were nearly 20% longer than those of white men for similar crimes in recent years, an analysis by the U.S. Sentencing Commission found." It's only later in an apparent effort to avoid the appearance of bias does the author turn to Sonja Starr. Prof. Starr's direct quote doesn't discredit the assertion that there is racial inequality, only that this single report by the Sentencing Committee doesn't represent the entire criminal-justice system. It's then the article's author who claims Prof. Starr has found no marked increase in racial disparity. This isn't surprising since Sonja is primarily concerned with gender inequality instead of racial inequality (by the way, she found "large unexplained gender disparities")

If you want to assert that racial inequality isn't present in the justice system, the burden of proof is on you.

The. Evidence. Supports. That. There. Is. Racial. Inequality.

[Vendetta]

100 times? No, but our homicide rate alone is five times higher.

Maybe you want to look at the difference in degree between the numbers "one hundred" and "five" before you try and excuse US policing with this argument?

A UK comparison is irrelevant to describing a systemic problem. The UK and the US have different cultures and different expectations of what law and order as well as the enforcement of it mean. You have to prove that within the subject country, and crime rates and police shooting rates and police complaint rates even amongst communities of color vary wildly.

Bullshit American exceptionalism. You're not fucking special, except in the short bus sense. The comparison is also not unique between the US and UK, US police kill the most members of the population in any first world nation by a massive degree, far more than the degree of variation in crime rates.

The same crimes, but with the same records? That's the little hiccup in all of those comparisons. Show me a statistic that comes to that conclusion and included that in their methodology. I would also be curious if they are controlling for the jurisdictions the sentences are given in, I suspect not.

Except those records are also the product of a system which imposes harsher penalties on black people. So there is a strong corrupting element on the historical criminal justice statistics.

Y'know, those black people who get stopped and searched at six times the rate of white people despite lower rates of anything being found on searches.

All I ask is that you prove it, otherwise you are just a lying asshole.

The statistics speak for themselves, US police are vastly more likely to kill members of the public than any other first world force, to a degree which simply cannot be explained by factors like crime statistics, and have massive systemic racial bias at basically every level of operation.

The more you keep your head in the sand about it, the longer the problem will persist, this is exactly why the issue only gets visibility through violent protest, because idiots don't even believe there's a problem until shit's already on fire.

[Thanas]

You will note one of the often cited solutions is to not hire local, which is in contrast to another solution you put forward.

I am not advocating exclusive local recruitment.

Because I thought your solution was to make the police reflect their community? What was your point if not that?

My solution is not to make the police reflect their community, but demographics across the entire country. And minorities are needed per se, otherwise we get the "black person drives through all-white town in flyover state" problem

Do you have any proof this is someone a root cause of any of these problems? The Baltimore residents are quoted over and over saying the race of the police officers is not an issue, it's that they are police period.

Maybe it is not an issue in Baltimore, but it certainly is an issue in Ferguson, New York etc.

Not as you wrote it. From your wording it appears you would be cool with a 100% female force.

Do me the courtesy of assuming that I write in the context of reality, where female police recruits do not have the numbers of a 100% force, and further do me the courtesy of me being aware of the problems of reverse discrimination.

In SOME of the cases here (ie not Michael Brown for instance). In the vast majority, in the 99.99% realm, they are working just fine. Its actually entirely irrelevant to this particular case which if there is wrongdoing then its just plain out abuse after arrest.

Again, see the bigger context.

I don't think we agree on the problem. I see no statistically supported systemic problem in policing. What I see is crime overwhelmed communities being policed as required and the nature of that policing leading to what we see as an inevitability. Zero defect seeking is idiocy. Decrease the need for policing and the severity of that policing and you will have less of these incidents. There are lots of ways to do that, and they come from a lot of corners. But the short answer to your question is economics.

....then it is not worth debating you anyway, as you are one of those "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" types.

[KroLazuxy_87]

A UK comparison is irrelevant to describing a systemic problem. The UK and the US have different cultures and different expectations of what law and order as well as the enforcement of it mean. You have to prove that within the subject country, and crime rates and police shooting rates and police complaint rates even amongst communities of color vary wildly.

Bullshit American exceptionalism. You're not fucking special, except in the short bus sense. The comparison is also not unique between the US and UK, US police kill the most members of the population in any first world nation by a massive degree, far more than the degree of variation in crime rates.

I actually agree with Patroklos on this point - to a certain degree. Although it is useful to compare the U.S. to other first world countries (especially when it would be better if we were more like them) it's not the most statistically sound method. It's better to compare apples to apples than apples to oranges. Ideally, you'd want to compare the U.S. to itself. I'm not sure there's ever been a time where blacks weren't being killed at higher rates than whites, but you could hypothetically look at the increase in police killings since the militarization of police forces. There's a problem with this though. (see below)

The same crimes, but with the same records? That's the little hiccup in all of those comparisons. Show me a statistic that comes to that conclusion and included that in their methodology. I would also be curious if they are controlling for the jurisdictions the sentences are given in, I suspect not.

Except those records are also the product of a system which imposes harsher penalties on black people. So there is a strong corrupting element on the historical criminal justice statistics.

Y'know, those black people who get stopped and searched at six times the rate of white people despite lower rates of anything being found on searches.

All I ask is that you prove it, otherwise you are just a lying asshole.

The statistics speak for themselves, US police are vastly more likely to kill members of the public than any other first world force, to a degree which simply cannot be explained by factors like crime statistics, and have massive systemic racial bias at basically every level of operation.

The more you keep your head in the sand about it, the longer the problem will persist, this is exactly why the issue only gets visibility through violent protest, because idiots don't even believe there's a problem until shit's already on fire.

When looking at the rate of cop killings in the US over time - such as in this article - the results always come with a caveat. From my sourced article for instance, "However, as we learned from experts who have studied crime statistics and police-involved shooting, there are significant holes in the FBI data that cast doubts on whether real conclusions can be drawn from the statistics."

Here's another article discussing the issue with accurate reporting of police shootings.

PLEASE NOTE: While the numbers regarding police shootings are vague and perhaps unreliable, the numbers concerning criminal charges and sentencing are much more reliable as they come from well documented court procedings.

[Grumman]

Not at all what I said, imbecile. What I said is that white people, due to the fact that they have never lived in constant fear of the police, to the point that when their male children reach a certain age they have to talk to them about how best not to be beaten or outright murdered by the police...

Then they appear to suck at it, since useful advice to avoid getting shot by the police like "don't become a drug dealer," "don't rob a liquor store and then set fire to it" and "don't try to steal a cop's gun" seems to not be getting through.

[Flagg]

....then it is not worth debating you anyway, as you are one of those "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" types.

The term you're looking for is "racist fuck".

[Flagg]

Not at all what I said, imbecile. What I said is that white people, due to the fact that they have never lived in constant fear of the police, to the point that when their male children reach a certain age they have to talk to them about how best not to be beaten or outright murdered by the police...

Then they appear to suck at it, since useful advice to avoid getting shot by the police like "don't become a drug dealer," "don't rob a liquor store and then set fire to it" and "don't try to steal a cop's gun" seems to not be getting through.

Right, because all black people do that, right? And since they all do it, then busting in the wrong house and shooting the owner is OK, since the owner is black and therefore a drug dealer, right? Shooting someone running away in the back is a-OK as long as they are black because they must be a drug dealer, right? Fuck you, you racist trash.

I wish these were the good old days when saying the shit you just said got you banned instantly you racist, walking, talking, piece of shit.

[KroLazuxy_87]

Not at all what I said, imbecile. What I said is that white people, due to the fact that they have never lived in constant fear of the police, to the point that when their male children reach a certain age they have to talk to them about how best not to be beaten or outright murdered by the police...

Then they appear to suck at it, since useful advice to avoid getting shot by the police like "don't become a drug dealer," "don't rob a liquor store and then set fire to it" and "don't try to steal a cop's gun" seems to not be getting through.

What the fuck kind of logic is that?? Parents tell their kids to look before crossing the street, but people still get run over. Parents tell their kids to eat healthy and go to bed on time, but they get fat and stay up late. Parents tell their children not to be racist pricks, - well, maybe yours didn't - but they still grow up to be ignorant and racist.

Can you please provide some evidence that parents sucking at telling their kids "don't become a drug dealer," "don't rob a liquor store and then set fire to it" and "don't try to steal a cop's gun" is in anyway more indicative of them doing those things in the future than factors like poverty, a poor education system, or perceived problems with society (such as racism)?

[Patroklos]

Maybe you want to look at the difference in degree between the numbers "one hundred" and "five" before you try and excuse US policing with this argument?

I am simply pointing out that there are in fact data points that explain some of that disparity, I never said that one in particular explains all or it. This is a fact you will simply have to deal with.

Bullshit American exceptionalism. You're not fucking special, except in the short bus sense. The comparison is also not unique between the US and UK, US police kill the most members of the population in any first world nation by a massive degree, far more than the degree of variation in crime rates.

Did I say anything about exceptionalism? No, I said different with no value judgement attached. You can't prove what you want to prove with a UK vs US comparison. This is simply a fact you want to deal with.

Except those records are also the product of a system which imposes harsher penalties on black people. So there is a strong corrupting element on the historical criminal justice statistics.

Perhaps. Or the black community (for whatever reason) is in fact committing more crime.

Y'know, those black people who get stopped and searched at six times the rate of white people despite lower rates of anything being found on searches.

Except finding contraband and whatever initiated the stop are completely divorced from each other in most situations.

The statistics speak for themselves, US police are vastly more likely to kill members of the public than any other first world force, to a degree which simply cannot be explained by factors like crime statistics, and have massive systemic racial bias at basically every level of operation.

Which does not prove a systemic problem. For instance if ever other state had zero people killed last year and New York had 100,000 that would not point to a nationwide systemic problem. Perhaps you just don't know what that word means.

The more you keep your head in the sand about it, the longer the problem will persist, this is exactly why the issue only gets visibility through violent protest, because idiots don't even believe there's a problem until shit's already on fire.

All just asked you for your proof, you in particular have provided none. Actually all I really asked you was some methodology questions, but apparently that was too much.

....then it is not worth debating you anyway, as you are one of those "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" types.

The term you're looking for is "racist fuck".

Fuck you. Put up or shut up. Me not thinking the evidence points to a systemic problem does not have anything to do with racism one way or the other.

[Thanas]

Maybe you want to look at the difference in degree between the numbers "one hundred" and "five" before you try and excuse US policing with this argument?

I am simply pointing out that there are in fact data points that explain some of that disparity, I never said that one in particular explains all or it. This is a fact you will simply have to deal with.

But here is the thing.

The US is part of the Western World. That means, even if you cannot transcribe things 1:1, if there is a difference in the thousands of percents, then there is obviously a problem. The consistent, logical response to "thousand times the rate of killings in Europe" is "there is something wrong with the police". When that assumption is backed with evidence (and the police abuse thread is full of them) then it would be kinda dishonest to:
a) discount the existence of a problem at all
b) claim that despite sharing similar values and culture, there is a wide gap between the USA and the rest of the western world that makes any comparison bad per se
c) doing so despite providing no alternative theory.

[Patroklos]

The US is part of the Western World. That means, even if you cannot transcribe things 1:1, if there is a difference in the thousands of percents, then there is obviously a problem. The consistent, logical response to "thousand times the rate of killings in Europe" is "there is something wrong with the police". When that assumption is backed with evidence (and the police abuse thread is full of them) then it would be kinda dishonest to:

No, the assumption shouldn't be "there is something wrong with the police" because there are dozens of things that could contribute to that outside of or in conjunction with that. For instance our much higher crime rate.

a) discount the existence of a problem at all

I didn't say that. If I was not clear my answer to you above regarding there not being a systemic problem was in regards to police specifically killing black men, not people in general. All the UK statistic comparison speaks to is people in general.

As to the overall high level of police killings I agree a PART of the problem is the police themselves. But I again point out that those police are dealing with a population with a homicide rate five times that of the UK and the police are not causing that. Policing a population with that level of crime (and that is WAY down directly in line with more proactive and "militant" policing) is going to mean more intensive and proactive and yes even defensive actions that will lead to shooting incidents.

You can't solve that entirely on the policing side. The greater the threat the face the more apprehensive they will be and the more demand there will be for them to stop that threat. They are humans, mistakes will happen, bad decisions will be made, emotions will take over on occasion, shitty people will be recruited, and as long as the threat is multiple times that of the places you compare it to all those things will have more and more opportunities to come to the forefront. And I bet that rate isn't linear with the crime rate either. That's only going to be solved by decreasing the crime rate to manageable levels.

So feel free to implement some of those solutions you had above like buddying up and more funding. I'm all for it. Its not a pancea for ending our multiple times higher death via cop rate even if they are all as clean as the wind driven snow.

b) claim that despite sharing similar values and culture, there is a wide gap between the USA and the rest of the western world that makes any comparison bad per se

It doesn't make a comparison bad, it just doesn't allow you to make any conclusion about systemic problems within the US any more than the US having a high murder increasing the overall western world rate shows a systemic problem in the western world. The problem in the US could be very acute, which when you examine the crime rates between the states becomes quite obvious.

And its funny you want to claim we are so similar when this board revels in pointing out how different the US (generally for the worse) from specifically Europe. There are important differences. For instance in the century used in the comparison did the UK have tens of thousands of miles of lawless frontier to police? Did the UK have anything approaching the immigration levels of the US and all the societal upheaval that caused in the early 20th century? Did the UK have 15 percent of its population freed from slavery but thrown into poverty (the US's own fault, not an excuse, just a fact) that persisted virtually unabated well into the graded century?

No. Does that mean the UK doesn't have its own shit to deal with? Also no, but the fact is we are vastly different in very many ways and several of them are specifically relevant to this comparison.

c) doing so despite providing no alternative theory.

I am giving as good as I am getting. The fact that there are no good statistics on police shootings overall let along by state or by race doesn't leave much room for anyone to prove anything. The best I can find is Wikipedia which looks as good as anything else and that should tell you something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ki ... ted_States

This issue is base don anecdotes.