What Black Parents Tell Their Sons About the Police

[TheFeniX]

Honestly, I've had mostly positive interactions with police. I've shot with cops. I've walked up to cops just hanging around watching an area and, after making sure I'm not distracting them, just stood around and shot the shit with them. I've had/have cop friends.

I still avoid police in an official capacity if i can. Now, this is just my personal experience, but cops tend to have an "on switch." Let me try and give an example out of my most recent dealing with an officer.

The wife and I both drove to our new house before closing. We were meeting up to drive together. There was a cop car backed into the driveway with the officer sitting in the seat. The wife, being the wife, pulls to the curb. I just pull into the driveway. I get out and the following takes place:
Me: "How's it going?"
Officer: "Good, this your house?"
Me: "Hopefully will be in.. :check my watch: "2 hours."
Officer: "Congratulations. Hey, I can move if you need, just keeping an eye on things."
There's a lot of construction still going on and he's the guy they got keeping tabs on the neighborhood.
Me: "Nah, you're good. Not my house yet, I can't kick you out anyways!
We both laugh at that.

So, we continue just shooting the shit. Then he gets a call and his entire demeanor changes. He's still very polite, but the conversation is ended with "Sir, I have to take this call. You have a nice day." This is after we've exchanged names. I see Dave around the neighborhood and there's a difference in the wave back I get depending on what he's doing. If he's dealing with other people, it's a curt wave. If he's just chilling and keeping an eye on things, it's a "hey buddy" wave.

The thing is, I fully understand the attitude shift: being blase' when dealing with an actual call can get you killed. But the issue remains that it's off-putting, even to me. You start to get the sense they are now just waiting for you to do something stupid and it makes you want to avoid them. This opens up it's own bag of cats because you can then actually react suspiciously and land yourself in even more trouble. Like, the wife pulling up to the curb, then getting out slowly, and very cautiously approaching the cop. That could be construed as very suspicious.

Meanwhile, I just pulled up right next to him (3 car driveway, so there was some space) and approached him cordially. They tend to like that, but that's an advantage I have having dealt with many cops outside an official capacity and being a dumpy looking white-guy with a bad haircut. He had no idea I was even legally carrying a handgun at the time because I'm just generally not that threatening.

Now, I can imagine being black or just not looking like something a cop thinks isn't a threat: you get that kind of "official attitude" all the time. All your interactions with police are you assuming they're out to get you for whatever dumb move you might (or might not) make. They start to look like a badge and a gun all the time. You treat them us such and they don't like being treated as such, so they pour it on even thicker, which makes you even more uncomfortable.

It's a pretty shitty cycle.

Anyways, sorry. Got off on a rant there. But I think a lot of cops could do much better for themselves if they cultivated a "Hey buddy" attitude, while still keeping a metaphorical hand on their gun. The "I'm in charge of this situation now, citizen" shtick just does not play well, even to people who generally do not fear cops.

[Thanas]

What? In a robbery, there is clearly someone besides the victim to punish.

Maybe I am not getting you then, but what do you think the guys in your example should have done different then? Not calling the cops at all, despite one having an alert situation and the others seeing somebody lying in the street?

Because there was clearly a different guilty party then.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Who are stupid fucking retards who actually live in this country and still believe cops are their friends and are there to help them?

Maybe in the past the police were there to help people, but not any more. Nowadays they are all about punishing people. No one is saying to never call the police, but make sure to only ever call them if there is someone (else) to punish. If the police arrive and there is no one around to punish, they may end up punishing you, as these two people found out:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=160673

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=154545

Both of your examples involve people refusing to follow instructions, though the incident involving Kenneth Chamberlain is much more complex. But, I guess in a way you are right. If you call 911 and then refuse to follow instructions then you may end up getting "punished".

By the way, just because I'm pointing out that the people in your two examples failed to follow instructions does not mean that I think the police did not fuck up.

[Simon_Jester]

What we're seeing here in both cases DA links is a confused person who doesn't fully grasp what the police expect, possibly because their judgment is impaired by illness or tipsiness, and partly because the police have taken to expecting immediate compliance with very harsh, aggressive instructions and enforcing that compliance brutally.

[Raw Shark]

Police are not to be trusted. Under any circumstance. They are trained to lie to you. They are trained to suspect you. They are paid to arrest you. They are becoming more and more militarized every day. They are above the laws they are paid to enforce "uphold". Avoid police at all costs.

That is the lesson I would pass on to any children I may have or anyone that will listen regardless of color.

With the addition of being polite and as respectful as the situation allows to this, Hav hit it on the goddamn head for dealing with cops in the US. They are not your friends, ever. Even if you called them yourself, they are not your friends, they aren't your protectors, and they most likely don;t care a fucking bit about you other than assessing you for signs of "suspicious activity". Trust them at your own peril.

This is what I plan to tell my own eventual children, no matter what color they are, though possibly with more urgent tones depending on relative melanin content. Be polite. Be respectful. Be afraid. Don't make any sudden moves. Don't give them an excuse.

[Havok]

Havok's got plenty of experience of cop behaviour, I'd say he is to be trusted at least regarding his local PD.

Thanas wins the award for Understatement of the Year.

And to clarify my stance, there is absolutely zero reason to be a dick or be disrespectful to the police, without provocation, but do so in the parameters of understanding and taking into account my previous statement.

[Dominus Atheos]

What? In a robbery, there is clearly someone besides the victim to punish.

Maybe I am not getting you then, but what do you think the guys in your example should have done different then? Not calling the cops at all, despite one having an alert situation and the others seeing somebody lying in the street?

Because there was clearly a different guilty party then.

...

We're definitely talking past each other here because I have no idea what you are talking about. What guilty party is there in a medical alert situation? Or a bicycle accident? Do you expect the police to shoot the bicycle? Even I don't think they are that crazy.

Let's try this again. If you are robbed, you should call the police because they will help you... by finding and punishing the robber. But just to be clear, helping you is merely a byproduct of their main goal, punishment. If there is no one to punish, don't count on the police for help.

[cosmicalstorm]

I wonder what their parents told them about society:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=282_1409879278

[Thanas]

We're definitely talking past each other here because I have no idea what you are talking about. What guilty party is there in a medical alert situation? Or a bicycle accident? Do you expect the police to shoot the bicycle? Even I don't think they are that crazy.

The party who caused the accident and fled the scene, obviously.

Anyway, you are right, I don't get your stance. Are you saying that one should not call the police until there is a third party to punish?

[Havok]

I think what he is saying is that in general cops don't give a shit about a situation unless they can make an arrest or give a ticket, i.e. create revenue and positive statistics for their departments.

I can't remember if it was Dave Chappell or Chris Rock, but one of them made the joke that a cop will stop the shit out of you for a busted tail light, but drive right past you if your car is broke down on the side of the road. It's obviously an anecdotal joke but I think it illustrates the point.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Plenty of police demonstrate that they do care about people who are having non-law enforcement struggles. The media doesn't report these. Police do stop to help change tires. Police do volunteer their time for the community. Police do reach out to people in need and help them. You can actually find stories like that if you search for them but most cops don't go out and do those sort of things then call the media and say "hey do a story on this compassionate thing I did".

The idea of not calling the police unless there is someone else to punish is grossly flawed and ignores the context of those two examples DA gave.

[Channel72]

Example: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/2 ... 09178.html

[Flagg]

Hav is understating things. Though I've largely had good experiences with police when I was a kid, once I was about 20 things changed. And since a Lot of cops are now former soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan they don't have. Protect and serve attitude, they have a fucking us vs them attitude where anyone wearing blue is us and anyone not is them.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Hav is understating things. Though I've largely had good experiences with police when I was a kid, once I was about 20 things changed. And since a Lot of cops are now former soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan they don't have. Protect and serve attitude, they have a fucking us vs them attitude where anyone wearing blue is us and anyone not is them.

Same could be said about your attitude, right?

[Raw Shark]

I wonder what their parents told them about society:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=282_1409879278

Nothing good, I'd imagine. Do you have some point besides, "Violent miscreants often had poorly-executed upbringings?"

[Flagg]

Hav is understating things. Though I've largely had good experiences with police when I was a kid, once I was about 20 things changed. And since a Lot of cops are now former soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan they don't have. Protect and serve attitude, they have a fucking us vs them attitude where anyone wearing blue is us and anyone not is them.

Same could be said about your attitude, right?

Yeah but I don't have armored vehicles, a massive arsenal, and the legal authority to use them.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Hav is understating things. Though I've largely had good experiences with police when I was a kid, once I was about 20 things changed. And since a Lot of cops are now former soldiers from Iraq and Afghanistan they don't have. Protect and serve attitude, they have a fucking us vs them attitude where anyone wearing blue is us and anyone not is them.

Same could be said about your attitude, right?

Yeah but I don't have armored vehicles, a massive arsenal, and the legal authority to use them.

Touche, Flagg. Touche.

[Simon_Jester]

I think part of it is that it's kind of a matter of luck whether you get angry aggressive police who will screw you over and throw you in jail for no reason. Or whether you get helpful police who avoid escalating a situation unnecessarily and are cooperative with civilians that are only trying to help.

I once had to call the police after a traffic accident and they treated me fine, even though they had some reasons to think the accident was my fault. But a different officer, or in a different county, or if I were a different race, might have acted differently. Roll the dice.

So the public can be faced with a situation where if they lose the die roll they get hurt or arrested but when they win nothing particularly serious happens. And if they're not gamblers, they can easily be nervous about rolling those dice.

[Plus, there's the fraction of the population that are gamblers, such as habitually reckless criminals and youths who view defying big risks as a way to show off their courage. I think they will be if anything more likely to court trouble with the police when it makes them feel brave to do so. Rather than just feeling like idiots who got caught.

[Alferd Packer]

If we want to break the mentality of "us vs. them", I truly think the police are going to be the ones who must take the first step. As Flagg pointed out, the advantages the police hold over the citizenry are numerous. A citizen's only true advantage over the police is his Fifth Amendment rights and protections.

The police, collectively, have to say, "Yes, we know we have this imposing arsenal and can bring the hammer down at any time. But we refuse to do so, because we do not want to be adversaries to the community we serve." Will the citizenry react in kind by not being assholes? I don't know, but I really think the police have to take a first step and at least try.

[Thanas]

Even if the community are assholes, police still need to be the bigger men. It is their job.

[Dark Hellion]

Even if the community are assholes, police still need to be the bigger men. It is their job.

You know Thanas, I usually don't agree with you (and even when I do I have caveats) but this is a really succinct and precise summation of a lot of the problems with U.S. law enforcement. I especially like how, opposed to a lot of the criticisms of law enforcement, it makes room for members who are part of this community and clearly not the problem, as they are these bigger men you talk about.

[Havok]

I remember talking to one of my cop buddies when I was younger about the cops in Alameda and Oakland and how they would only take lateral transfers and no rookies and they never wanted ex-soldiers that became cops unless they were MPs, because soldiers make shit cops, especially those that have seen combat or something like that.

That has always stuck with me as I have watched the slow militarization of the country's police departments.

[Darth Yan]

I remember in one show the lawyers are defending a teenage client who confessed; they find out that the interrogator was a soldier who not only specialized in interrogation, but broke terrorist suspects before switching to gangbangers. The team's reaction is "well duh of course she confessed.")

[TheFeniX]

And those confessions are hard as fuck to get thrown out. I read a case about a woman who was raped and murdered in her own home. They rounded up some guy and over the course of hours of interrogation and being fed details by the interrogators, the suspect confessed and implicated another person. That guy confessed and implicated another. By the time it was over, like 6 men had confessed to the rape and murder and the prosecutor figured it was some kind of rape/murder orgy.

It didn't matter that the DNA didn't match any of the men nor that none of them match the description given by a witness who also stated only one person was involved: they were all convicted and sentenced. They finally caught the real rapist that confessed as part of a plea deal for another crime (rape again, I think). His DNA matched and even after stating he did it alone, the other convictions stood.

[Simon_Jester]

Although this does call into question the validity of the military interrogators interrogating terrorists; if you can make not one but SIX men confess for the same rape they did not commit, repeatably, just like that...

How the hell do you ever know if you've got anything but a false positive?