no charges for cop who shot kid holding bb gun

[madd0ct0r]

in all fairness, I probably wouldn't have posted it if the article I saw had that picture of the bb gun in.

How to reconcile things like open carry and 'twitch while holding something gun shaped and we shoot you'?

[Kamakazie Sith]

One time I had a jumpy cop draw his gun and point it at me because he asked me what I was holding (an apple) and I instinctively held it up to show him, in broad daylight. If I had more melanin than I do, I probably would've taken six in the chest.

You have to agree there is a significant difference in instruction between get your hands up and show me what's in your hand. Though you're probably right. He was probably white and obviously a cop therefore he was likely racist and violent. You're lucky to be alive. You should be on that show "I shouldn't be alive". EDIT - I wonder if you've considered that the racist in your story might not be the cop. Your details are quite thin though so feel free to edit them so you don't sound like an asshole.

Of course we will never know the cops perspective. Maybe he told you his reasoning. Maybe he didn't. That's the problem with anecdotal stories. I have a similar story though. Several years before I became a cop my friends and I were stopped by police at gunpoint. They said "Police! Get your hands in the air!" while behind a wall of light. I couldn't see the red and blue lights...just bright blinding light. I put my hands in the air. Later they told us my vehicle matched the description of a robbery with a gun suspect. They told us because we asked.

[Kamakazie Sith]

in all fairness, I probably wouldn't have posted it if the article I saw had that picture of the bb gun in.

How to reconcile things like open carry and 'twitch while holding something gun shaped and we shoot you'?

Even in your story the reasoning isn't "He twitched". So, where is this exaggeration coming from? It's true there are a stories where the person did twitch and they shot him dead but why ask that question in this thread? Are you under the impression this kid twitched instead of turned and raised the fake weapon at the police?

[madd0ct0r]

more accurate then saying he raised the gun.

All the stroy says is he turned towards the policeman who was shouting at him (and who can't remember if he identified himself as police or not).

If I hear someone shouting, my first response is to turn towards it too, I wouldn't even assume they were talking to me.

[LaCroix]

Well, to show you how different things work in my country:

A few years ago, I and a friend walked back from training, with sports bags, hands in our pockets...
Suddenly, a police car turned around on the street, pulled up in front of us, blocking the road.
Police exited the car and asked us politely to let them have a look at our bags.
Turned out we looked exactly like two guys from an armed bank robbery just a few minutes ago.
The whole time, they didn't even draw their guns. (they actually would have gotten in trouble if they had - our police's ROE are very strict)

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/austria
We got 8.5 million people with about 2.5 million guns floating around. Still, we only have 5-10 people shot at by the police each year, of about 200 shots by police (including warning shots)
Germany has about 10 times these numbers (they have 10x population) - so they are virtually identical, and have the same rules of professional conduct for police officers. They even shoot less than our police! (Only ~40 people shot by police per year for a country of 80 million)
Shots fired are a huge thing in the national news and are investigated thoroughly. Heck - we even get a huge outrage in public and politics if police actually uses sticks during a riot police action at a protest.

So we are massively armed, but police is still held to high standards. We actually do expect officers to only shoot once it is 100% clear that there is a weapon involved and danger present. Just the act of drawing the weapon is seen as misconduct if there isn't a valid threat. And because you will ask, it's extremely rare for an officer to be hurt, or getting killed. (Single digit per decade rare for getting killed).

[Raw Shark]

One time I had a jumpy cop draw his gun and point it at me because he asked me what I was holding (an apple) and I instinctively held it up to show him, in broad daylight. If I had more melanin than I do, I probably would've taken six in the chest.

You have to agree there is a significant difference in instruction between get your hands up and show me what's in your hand. Though you're probably right. He was probably white and obviously a cop therefore he was likely racist and violent. You're lucky to be alive. You should be on that show "I shouldn't be alive". EDIT - I wonder if you've considered that the racist in your story might not be the cop. Your details are quite thin though so feel free to edit them so you don't sound like an asshole.

The cop in question and I are both about as white as you can be without being an albino.

Of course we will never know the cops perspective. Maybe he told you his reasoning. Maybe he didn't. That's the problem with anecdotal stories. I have a similar story though. Several years before I became a cop my friends and I were stopped by police at gunpoint. They said "Police! Get your hands in the air!" while behind a wall of light. I couldn't see the red and blue lights...just bright blinding light. I put my hands in the air. Later they told us my vehicle matched the description of a robbery with a gun suspect. They told us because we asked.

I find it a bit of a stretch to lend credibility to a "dangerous apple-wielding suspect was called in" scenario. I theorize that dickhead was bored and paranoid and drew down on me (when I was a kid, by the way) for wielding fruit.

[TheHammer]

So we are massively armed, but police is still held to high standards. We actually do expect officers to only shoot once it is 100% clear that there is a weapon involved and danger present. Just the act of drawing the weapon is seen as misconduct if there isn't a valid threat. And because you will ask, it's extremely rare for an officer to be hurt, or getting killed. (Single digit per decade rare for getting killed).

So to use that in the context of this case, given the photos earlier of the weapon in question, certainly something that looks like a real AK from any sort of distance and someone who is turning towards an office raising said weapon. Would it be reasonable in Austria for an officer to then open fire? If not, what exactly do you consider a "valid threat"?

[madd0ct0r]

where did 'raising the weapon' come from?

[Cykeisme]

Another factor to take into account is the climate of the area the police officers are working in.

If it's in a particularly high crime area and/or there have been recent incidents where police officers have been shot in the line of duty (particularly if it's a similar situation, where the policeman asks someone to freeze, suspect turns and fires at the cop), I'd expect things to be very tense every moment of every day for a cop on the beat.

Nevertheless, anyone holding a realistic airsoft gun (at least the victim holds part of the blame here).. or a table leg (or any number of other objects with similar shape and size) is in serious trouble if they are shouted at by an officer.
Turn around and look, twitch, or fail to clearly hear what was shouted... any of those cases, and possibly several other responses, results in death.

[Captain Seafort]

where did 'raising the weapon' come from?

Because when you twist at the waist, as you do when you turn to look behind you, your arms move from hanging at your sides to angled across your body. This causes the barrel of any weapon (or weapon-shaped object) you're carrying to come up in an arc which, if continued, would end with it pointing at whoever you're turning towards. If that person is an armed plod who believes he's confronting an armed individual, it's hardly unreasonable for him to believe he's about to be shot and to open fire.

[TheHammer]

where did 'raising the weapon' come from?

Pretty sure I saw it mentioned in this thread, or else I read it elsewhere.

In any event, its noted here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-cali ... -left-car/

Investigators have said Gelhaus feared for his safety after Lopez turned around and allegedly raised the pellet gun in his direction.

The OP article was definitively biased in this case. When you look at this particular officer's record, you don't get the impression that he was some sort of trigger happy novice. He was a 24 year veteran, and a firearms instructor and this was his first shooting of a suspect in the line of duty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Andy_Lopez

[TheHammer]

If anyone cares, I found the complete report on the incident here:

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/kgo/PDF/Comp ... 7-7-14.pdf

When you consider all of the facts, it makes it awfully hard to find fault with how the officer reacted. That's not to say the kid necessarily did anything wrong or deserved to die either. Like I mentioned earlier, tragic mistakes like this are always going to happen no matter the training or mind set. You just have to do what you can to minimize them...

[madd0ct0r]

page 12.

Deputy Gelhaus was heard to call out to the subject once or twice, depending on the observer, to drop the gun. Both deputies reported that rather than obeying the command, the subject turned to his right towards the deputies with the weapon in hand and the barrel, which had been pointed down, began to ascend. As the weapon turned towards the deputies, both deputies reported being in fear for their lives or that of their partner and surrounding citizens.

Conceded. Seafort described it correctly. A stupid and pointless death though.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I find it a bit of a stretch to lend credibility to a "dangerous apple-wielding suspect was called in" scenario. I theorize that dickhead was bored and paranoid and drew down on me (when I was a kid, by the way) for wielding fruit.

So he didn't tell you why. I highly doubt he was responding to a call of a dangerous apple wielding suspect. After all he did ask to see what was in your hand which means he didn't know which also means it was likely something else but since you never bothered to ask or he didn't tell you - and he should have - then all we have left is baseless speculation which doesn't add any content to anything.

[LaCroix]

So we are massively armed, but police is still held to high standards. We actually do expect officers to only shoot once it is 100% clear that there is a weapon involved and danger present. Just the act of drawing the weapon is seen as misconduct if there isn't a valid threat. And because you will ask, it's extremely rare for an officer to be hurt, or getting killed. (Single digit per decade rare for getting killed).

So to use that in the context of this case, given the photos earlier of the weapon in question, certainly something that looks like a real AK from any sort of distance and someone who is turning towards an office raising said weapon. Would it be reasonable in Austria for an officer to then open fire? If not, what exactly do you consider a "valid threat"?

Enough to pull the weapon and take aim and tell him once more that he is to drop that object? yes.
Shooting? Not until he actually raises it to the shoulder to take aim or is doing anything else that shows he's obviously preparing to fire - as in taking it in both hands in case of an AK. Just turning around hand having the object dangle in his direction - that isn't taking aim. Firing would be seen as premature.

In the current case, the report is being vague. A muzzle being pointed at the officers would make them shoot, but I can't make out from the report if it was just swinging in their direction, or "raised to aim". An officer firing might get away without getting charged with a criminal offense in this case (since the object really looks like a weapon), but might be seen as "to twitchy" for duty and either sent to a desk or removed from the force.

In the mentioned case of the table leg, the officers would be in deep shit.

Firing at a fleeing suspect to stop escape is allowed in some situations, but this would mean the officer has to aim for legs. If he doesn't hit them, he's in trouble, too.
Just look at a recent case:
http://www.thelocal.de/20140728/policem ... h-bad-shot

[His Divine Shadow]

Another factor to take into account is the climate of the area the police officers are working in.

If it's in a particularly high crime area and/or there have been recent incidents where police officers have been shot in the line of duty (particularly if it's a similar situation, where the policeman asks someone to freeze, suspect turns and fires at the cop), I'd expect things to be very tense every moment of every day for a cop on the beat.

Nevertheless, anyone holding a realistic airsoft gun (at least the victim holds part of the blame here).. or a table leg (or any number of other objects with similar shape and size) is in serious trouble if they are shouted at by an officer.
Turn around and look, twitch, or fail to clearly hear what was shouted... any of those cases, and possibly several other responses, results in death.

You make it sound like avoiding cops is the best way to keep safe. Perhaps true in america where the warrior/soldier mentality seems to be taking hold and militarization continues apace.

[Alyeska]

Why is there no mandate that specifies all toy guns (Airsoft is a plastic BB...so I would consider them toys; the ones that shoot the metal BBs you can actually do some small game hunting with and I'd not consider them toys per se) to be constructed in such a way as there is no mistake they are actually toys (Like Nerf does)?

To me, this could alleviate these types of senseless killings.

For one, wouldn't it give a would-be-caller pause if they see that the guns are brightly colored or oddly shaped in the first place?

People want fake guns that look real for various reasons. I have paintball markers that are designed for real weapons. The Orange Tip rule is nothing more but feel good nonsense. That tip can be removed or painted over. And real guns have been painted with an orange tip. Police will treat any gun like object as a gun until they know otherwise.

[cadbrowser]

People want fake guns that look real for various reasons. I have paintball markers that are designed for real weapons. The Orange Tip rule is nothing more but feel good nonsense. That tip can be removed or painted over. And real guns have been painted with an orange tip. Police will treat any gun like object as a gun until they know otherwise.

I understand that people want them to look real, I just don't understand why. You know, I just thought of this; I have a gentlemen and his wife that just joined our D&D group several weeks ago. He has showed me a nerf gun that he painted to look realistic (steampunk style).

Sure, it looked pretty cool, but I just don't get it.

Do you think the police would have done the same thing if that kid was holding this?



Of course this doesn't help anyone carrying a table leg though.

[TheFeniX]

Do you think the police would have done the same thing if that kid was holding this?

Of course this doesn't help anyone carrying a table leg though.

Well, kids have been shot for holding Wii-motes... in their own home entry-way. Guns aren't all chrome steel or matte black, so even having a strangely colored fake gun isn't going to make you immune to getting shot by police. They have pink guns, yellow guns, blue guns, even in bright neon colors. You can also paint guns with all sorts of weird shit and they are still deadly weapons.

[Grumman]

Guns aren't all chrome steel or matte black, so even having a strangely colored fake gun isn't going to make you immune to getting shot by police. They have pink guns, yellow guns, blue guns, even in bright neon colors. You can also paint guns with all sorts of weird shit and they are still deadly weapons.

Doesn't matter. A cop's standard for deciding that something is a gun should be sufficiently stringent that they do not decide something is a gun unless it is a gun or it is deliberately designed to look like you have a gun. I say this because police with an unreasonably low standard of what constitutes a gun kill far more people and make life far more dangerous than criminals who disguise their guns as not-guns.

[TheFeniX]

Doesn't matter. A cop's standard for deciding that something is a gun should be sufficiently stringent that they do not decide something is a gun unless it is a gun or it is deliberately designed to look like you have a gun. I say this because police with an unreasonably low standard of what constitutes a gun kill far more people and make life far more dangerous than criminals who disguise their guns as not-guns.

I don't disagree with you. The problem is that stringency is not there. You can, and will, be shot for making aggressive movements towards a cop. The big kicker is that no one really knows what's classified as "aggressive." Turning to look at someone who is yelling is a pretty natural response... a response that can get you killed.

But my point was mainly in response to "we shouldn't sell fake guns that look like real guns" because it has no real bearing, except maybe in this particular case. And even if it did, spray paint is cheap.

[Grumman]

Doesn't matter. A cop's standard for deciding that something is a gun should be sufficiently stringent that they do not decide something is a gun unless it is a gun or it is deliberately designed to look like you have a gun. I say this because police with an unreasonably low standard of what constitutes a gun kill far more people and make life far more dangerous than criminals who disguise their guns as not-guns.

I don't disagree with you. The problem is that stringency is not there. You can, and will, be shot for making aggressive movements towards a cop. The big kicker is that no one really knows what's classified as "aggressive." Turning to look at someone who is yelling is a pretty natural response... a response that can get you killed.

What I suggest makes it a lot more clear-cut, because if police require a higher standard of behaviour of people who are carrying real guns or things deliberately designed to look like real guns, at least those people know who they are. When someone decides to pick up a gun or a realistic toy gun, they should know they need to mentally shift gears and treat it with the appropriate respect. People who are holding random non-gun things like Wiimotes or table legs should not need to do that, and should know they don't need to do that.

[TheFeniX]

What I suggest makes it a lot more clear-cut, because if police require a higher standard of behaviour of people who are carrying real guns or things deliberately designed to look like real guns, at least those people know who they are. When someone decides to pick up a gun or a realistic toy gun, they should know they need to mentally shift gears and treat it with the appropriate respect. People who are holding random non-gun things like Wiimotes or table legs should not need to do that, and should know they don't need to do that.

I don't think we're really arguing here. The only thing I have to add is that more of the responsibility should be on people who actually own deadly weapons (real firearms) and for the most part, even the dumbest gun owner knows swinging around a firearm in public illegally is a good way to get killed, but police are the professionals who need to pick up on other cues that a gun that looks real might not be real. When you have a fake gun, you know really couldn't harm anyone, there's that disconnect: "What's the big deal?" Some people might be dumb enough to think the gun would be instantly recognizable as fake, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that earns them a trip to the morgue.

I don't think anyone is asking cops to go all Demolition Man and ask all potential killers to nicely lay on the ground. But there has to be a middle-ground between that and setting up a situation where opening fire on the armed (real or not) person is almost guaranteed.

Slowing things down might give time to ask yourself a few questions. Why hasn't he fired on anyone yet? Why is he just walking down the street like this is nothing to him? I'm not saying the officer was exactly wrong for his actions, but I don't think he was all that right.

[Alyeska]

People want fake guns that look real for various reasons. I have paintball markers that are designed for real weapons. The Orange Tip rule is nothing more but feel good nonsense. That tip can be removed or painted over. And real guns have been painted with an orange tip. Police will treat any gun like object as a gun until they know otherwise.

I understand that people want them to look real, I just don't understand why. You know, I just thought of this; I have a gentlemen and his wife that just joined our D&D group several weeks ago. He has showed me a nerf gun that he painted to look realistic (steampunk style).

Sure, it looked pretty cool, but I just don't get it.

Do you think the police would have done the same thing if that kid was holding this?



Of course this doesn't help anyone carrying a table leg though.

Why? Because it is cool. That is why. I built my paintball markers to look as close to real firearms as possible. Its called milsim.

[cadbrowser]

So, for no other reason than it looks cool. Ok.

I appreciate what TheFeniX and Grumman have been discussing regarding this because it makes sense. It seems to me that a balance of civilian instruction on the do's and dont's, and police common sense would be a good thing that could possibly prevent senseless acts like what is being reported here.

I also understand how the make all toy handguns obviously fake thing I mentioned earlier wouldn't really work. Or, perhaps, it would work, but not on a significant scale to mitigate the issues at hand.