It's LOYALTY DAY citizens. Have you been LOYAL today?

[xthetenth]

Now it has become parasitic- we can say the US would be better off had the Koch brothers never lived.

Can we actually say that? Or would their position be filled by people who would do similarly bad things? Or more to the point, is it a systemic issue with people in that socioeconomic bracket?

[Ralin]

It's called 'conditioning'. Why do you think patriotism is so strong in your country? Coincidence? Gamma rays? Gotta keep shaping those young people to react to the right concepts!

Religion? Private parenting decision. Loyalty brainwashing? State responsibility. It's particularly amusing because of the attitude that all kinds of things that are part of the democratic process or the nature of a free society are sometimes considered 'disloyal'. Disloyal to what?

I am familiar with the concept, Stark.

[Simon_Jester]

Now it has become parasitic- we can say the US would be better off had the Koch brothers never lived.

Can we actually say that? Or would their position be filled by people who would do similarly bad things? Or more to the point, is it a systemic issue with people in that socioeconomic bracket?

That underlined bit's actually what I was getting at- I chose concrete examples because it made it easier to get the point across is all. When I say the relationship between capital and the general public in America is parasitic where it used to be commensal, that's a general statement not a specific one.

[Stark]

I am familiar with the concept, Stark.

I'm sure you are, but I think it's a sad thing to teach people 'loyalty' or 'conformity' or 'obedience' without any clear description of what the object should be. Ironically its possible that this heinous brainwashing creates the need to attach to authorities without defining which one, so people decide 'states rights' or 'down with the federal government' or whatever. But such opposition arguably only strengthens the primary goal of social conformity.

[Irbis]

You know what country all this flag-waving, pledge-reciting complex reminds me of?

North Korea.

Except, latest reports from there all say people stopped buying all of this since movies smuggled from China and South Korea are making more and more people look critically on their own country. In USA, country with theoretically unrestricted access to information (unless you happen to watch Fox News...) most of attempts to look in any way critical still meet with 'DIRTY LIBRULS GRAB GUNZ AND FRIDUMS' or alternatively, from a bit better educated angle, the usual whining about corrupted Atheisocialist Eurabian disease that can only be defeated by sticking to THE EAGLE AND AMURICAN WAY.

[Simon_Jester]

[deep breath]

OR, depending on which Americans you talk to, you might actually get a reasoned response, if you bother to notice you've received one.

I sometimes wonder if it's just that hard for people to believe that progress can be nonlinear, that there is more than one acceptable and viable way to make a civilization work.

[Metahive]

On this very thread we had several people go "Yeah, I think that's totally normal, don't all countries do that?". I think that's reason enough to worry.

[Stark]

You know what country all this flag-waving, pledge-reciting complex reminds me of?

North Korea.

Except, latest reports from there all say people stopped buying all of this since movies smuggled from China and South Korea are making more and more people look critically on their own country. In USA, country with theoretically unrestricted access to information (unless you happen to watch Fox News...) most of attempts to look in any way critical still meet with 'DIRTY LIBRULS GRAB GUNZ AND FRIDUMS' or alternatively, from a bit better educated angle, the usual whining about corrupted Atheisocialist Eurabian disease that can only be defeated by sticking to THE EAGLE AND AMURICAN WAY.

Of course, because security through obscurity doesn't work. In poor North Korea they simply ignored reality, or other countries, or other ways of life, or other cultures and could do so reasonably effectively. In the West, this isn't possible; but the same freedom of information that means people can't deny Africa exists also makes it easy to muddy issues, sell ideas on style rather than substance, appeal to a variety of niche interests at once, etc. 'Freedom' doesn't mean 'good', after all; look at wikipedia.

[Irbis]

OR, depending on which Americans you talk to, you might actually get a reasoned response, if you bother to notice you've received one.

I sometimes wonder if it's just that hard for people to believe that progress can be nonlinear, that there is more than one acceptable and viable way to make a civilization work.

Oh, I do talk to reasonable Americans daily. There are a lot of them, most of US citizens on this board would qualify, in fact. The problem is twofold, though: one, these people are most definitely NOT the proponents of all that flag waving and anthem chanting, yet even they often buy into stupid concepts most of the first world left behind, often unconsciously, due to all the background noise the rabidly patriotic crowd makes. See any discussion on guns, circumcision, state/religion division, law enforcement, troops support, justice system, etc. etc.

For example, I remember your indifference or even acceptance to prayers in US schools - yet, in my country, one that can be described as rabidly catholic, any teacher but school chaplain (and even him only during optional religion lessons) trying to order prayer would be seen as relic and protested everywhere.

Second problem - as a lot of elections in US shows, reasonable population is in the minority, and USA blindly goes off course towards marginalization of more and more people (see 47% debacle) to enrich the rich, becoming more and more drunk on patriotism as circuses replace the bread.

Also, unlike you, I actually lived in authoritarian country before 1989. I remember forced marches, flag waving, compulsory celebrations and anthem singing. Except, all of this was forced. State tried, but couldn't convince more than a faction of people to be happy with it. What I see in USA is exact same, except brought by 60 years of scare and deliberate indoctrination against Soviets. First is a man who fought to cast off chains placed on him, second is one who accepted them for a bowl of food and promise that the "Reds" don't place him in their chains. That's why I compared the situation to North Korea - they did their propaganda experiment on much grander scale than any of the Warsaw Pact countries, coming close to US level. Yes, one is forced, the other is 'merely' mandated from the top, but results are similar to me.

As for progress being non-linear, yeah, I don't think there is perfect state, though the ones that have elements of everyday life close to the top are pretty much all European, IMHO. What I see in USA is weird amalgam of Europe and Soviet Union-like hurrah with religion and capitalism replacing Soviet ideology. That might be viable way to run the state, but pardon me for not visualising clinging to something my region abandoned 25 years ago (in worst cases) as progressive.