Coalition F-16 downed over ISIS, pilot captured

[Broomstick]

When has "bloodying a few noses" ever resulted in anyone backing off in this context?

[Grumman]

When has "bloodying a few noses" ever resulted in anyone backing off in this context?

Eight months ago in Mosul? Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a good strategy here, just one that ISIL might be trying to use.

[The Romulan Republic]

What about in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years? Say what you will about the wars their, the number of dead Americans was remarkably low compared to many historical wars, including some wars that America fought in. And yet those casualties surely played a role in turning many Americans against those wars.

[Elheru Aran]

What about in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent years? Say what you will about the wars their, the number of dead Americans was remarkably low compared to many historical wars, including some wars that America fought in. And yet those casualties surely played a role in turning many Americans against those wars.

Lots of factors there. Before Korea and Vietnam the American M.O. was to get stuck in, defeat the enemy and then get out of Dodge fairly quickly. But in Korea they got stalemated, and in Vietnam had to deal with the massive disaster that became. Since then, there were no serious, long-term campaigns (unless you count the Cold War as a whole) for them to be involved in-- Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Desert Storm, etc, were quickly done, never taking more than a few years. But Iraq? 2003 to 20...13? 14? Fuck if I remember, but it was like 10 years. Afghanistan even longer. Add to that the relentless 24-hour news cycle totting up every soldier that got splattered and displaying every step of progress (or lack thereof), the quickly won initial campaigns turning into grinding occupation without a distinct enemy to fight apart from the vague category of 'guerrilla', 'Islamic resistance', 'terrorist', etcetera, and the only thing you can really wonder at is that we're only just now getting out of the Middle East...

[Gandalf]

Didn't the US get out of Somalia and Lebanon pretty quickly after proverbial bloody noses?

[The Romulan Republic]

Honestly, I think that for all the bellicose attitudes of some Americans, America as a whole no longer has a stomach for the kind of gruelling, bloody wars we fought in during the Civil War, the First World War, the Second World War, and Vietnam. Maybe that's a good thing on the whole. Or maybe not. It might keep us out of some needless horror, but it also means that if their comes a time when we really need to fight, we might not be up to it.

[Elheru Aran]

Didn't the US get out of Somalia and Lebanon pretty quickly after proverbial bloody noses?

We did indeed, my point was mainly that Iraq/Afghanistan are the longest 'wars' the US has fought since Vietnam. May discuss this more tomorrow but I have to get home now...

[The Romulan Republic]

Afghanistan is longer than Vietnam as I recall, though my recollection may be wrong.

[RogueIce]

Afghanistan is longer than Vietnam as I recall, though my recollection may be wrong.

That depends on how you define the US-involved "Vietnam War". If you go with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution through the Paris Peace Accords, that's eight years (1965-1973) so Iraq was more-or-less the same, and Afghanistan is definately longer. But US advisors were in Vietnam before and, I believe, after that period (and certainly we were involved in evacuating Saigon in 1975) so it's a matter of definition.

[Thanas]

I don't grasp the mental process of someone who would deliberately burn someone alive, and don't particularly care to achieve that viewpoint.

It's not hard. If one sees their enemy as being less than human, anything is possible. Inflict pain and suffering to presumably deal with one's own pain. Think of how many people wanted a nuclear apocalypse over the ME after 11/9, or pretty much any standard internet tough guy business.

People feel wronged, and they're taking it out on their (sometimes relatively) powerless societal others. The object of torture is torture.

Alternatively, it gets real easy for people who see their comrades burnt alive by western bombs to go "alright, we got one, let's do it to him".

[Borgholio]

And Jordan has kept it's promise. Two ISIS prisoners have been hanged.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/world ... .html?_r=0

[Patroklos]

Including one that ISIS had requested in exchange during the failed negotiations.

[Thanas]

And Jordan has kept it's promise. Two ISIS prisoners have been hanged.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/04/world ... .html?_r=0

Three more are slated to be executed today.

[Borgholio]

Not that I condone such a thing exactly, but I wonder if at some point there simply won't be any ISIS prisoners anymore. They'll just be executed on the spot if captured.

[Thanas]

The kurds are already doing that and killing arab civilians "suspected of helping ISIS" (read: not being kurds) in the territory they have taken. This unsurprisingly gets little airtime in the western media.

[Broomstick]

Alternatively, it gets real easy for people who see their comrades burnt alive by western bombs to go "alright, we got one, let's do it to him".

Alternatively, it gets real easy for westerners who have their buildings/trains/sporting events/etc. bombed to say "let's do an airstrike".

Are we really going to get on the merry-go-round of who was a shithead first?

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't grasp the mental process of someone who would deliberately burn someone alive, and don't particularly care to achieve that viewpoint.

It's not hard. If one sees their enemy as being less than human, anything is possible. Inflict pain and suffering to presumably deal with one's own pain. Think of how many people wanted a nuclear apocalypse over the ME after 11/9, or pretty much any standard internet tough guy business.

People feel wronged, and they're taking it out on their (sometimes relatively) powerless societal others. The object of torture is torture.

Alternatively, it gets real easy for people who see their comrades burnt alive by western bombs to go "alright, we got one, let's do it to him".

Yes, everything ISIS does is because they're the victims of the evil west. Or its because they're violent fanatics who think everyone who isn't them deserves slavery or death. Yes, the west has done some horrible things. But you should know damn well that dropping a bomb is not the same as burning a prisoner alive and that one evil act does not justify another evil act.

So take your ISIS apologism and fuck off.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that most people from the countries in which ISIS are operating are not resorting to their level of gratuitous brutality, so their's something beyond "victims of the West" making them do this shit.

[Thanas]

Alternatively, it gets real easy for westerners who have their buildings/trains/sporting events/etc. bombed to say "let's do an airstrike".

Are we really going to get on the merry-go-round of who was a shithead first?

No and I was unaware I was partaking in it in the first place. I merely stated that people executing bomber pilots in some gruesome fashion not unheard of, nor should it be hard to follow the thought process of thugs.

Yes, everything ISIS does is because they're the victims of the evil west. Or its because they're violent fanatics who think everyone who isn't them deserves slavery or death. Yes, the west has done some horrible things. But you should know damn well that dropping a bomb is not the same as burning a prisoner alive and that one evil act does not justify another evil act.

So take your ISIS apologism and fuck off.

I am going to have to ask you either for an apology or proof that:
1. I have condoned ISIS actions
2. I have said that they are a victim of the evil west
3. I have engaged in ISIS apologia

People were asking about the thought process of ISIS. I provided a possible answer. That's it. Either provide proof for your claims above, concede the issue or meet the consequences. You don't just get to accuse anybody of supporting terrorists.

[Broomstick]

Alternatively, it gets real easy for westerners who have their buildings/trains/sporting events/etc. bombed to say "let's do an airstrike".

Are we really going to get on the merry-go-round of who was a shithead first?

No and I was unaware I was partaking in it in the first place. I merely stated that people executing bomber pilots in some gruesome fashion not unheard of, nor should it be hard to follow the thought process of thugs.

My pardon for having a bit of a kneejerk there, but it does skirt close to thug apology. Maybe next time make it a bit clearer you're speaking for them and not yourself.

However, burning a captive alive does go further than even most thugs or barbarians. It's like the difference between rape and systematized sexual slavery, or the difference between shooting one guy in the head and lining up hundreds for efficiency in mass murder. Both which, come to think of it, ISIS has done. It's a level up (at least one) from the usual level of violence we've seen in the Middle East.

Seriously, what do people holding that mindset think, that the west should simply tolerate its citizens being murdered? Oh, wait - the west is supposed to submit. Except, of course, ISIS has made it clear that anyone who surrenders will still be purged. So... where's the incentive if you're going to die either way?

These guys want war, not peace.

[Thanas]

No and I was unaware I was partaking in it in the first place. I merely stated that people executing bomber pilots in some gruesome fashion not unheard of, nor should it be hard to follow the thought process of thugs.

My pardon for having a bit of a kneejerk there, but it does skirt close to thug apology. Maybe next time make it a bit clearer you're speaking for them and not yourself.

Having a theory on how they might have arrived at this conclusion is "skirting close to thug apology"? I assume next ime when I post how Isis gets great profits from illegal digs I am "skirting close to looter apology".

Or when I write about how past victims of bombings have also lynched pilots I am now "skirting close to Nazi apology".



Maybe next time you should stop reading things that aren't there.

(I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post as it in no way touches upon anything I have written.)

[The Romulan Republic]

Alternatively, it gets real easy for westerners who have their buildings/trains/sporting events/etc. bombed to say "let's do an airstrike".

Are we really going to get on the merry-go-round of who was a shithead first?

No and I was unaware I was partaking in it in the first place. I merely stated that people executing bomber pilots in some gruesome fashion not unheard of, nor should it be hard to follow the thought process of thugs.

Yes, everything ISIS does is because they're the victims of the evil west. Or its because they're violent fanatics who think everyone who isn't them deserves slavery or death. Yes, the west has done some horrible things. But you should know damn well that dropping a bomb is not the same as burning a prisoner alive and that one evil act does not justify another evil act.

So take your ISIS apologism and fuck off.

I am going to have to ask you either for an apology or proof that:
1. I have condoned ISIS actions
2. I have said that they are a victim of the evil west
3. I have engaged in ISIS apologia

People were asking about the thought process of ISIS. I provided a possible answer. That's it. Either provide proof for your claims above, concede the issue or meet the consequences. You don't just get to accuse anybody of supporting terrorists.

I worded my post poorly, it went too far, and I'm sorry that I didn't write a more accurate and measured response.

In my defence, I don't believe that it was really my intention to say that you condoned ISIS actions. That would be absurd. But I can see now how the implication is their, so I gladly retract it.

As for the second point, while you did not use those words, you suggested that being the targets of western bombing could be behind their actions. However, if you were intending to describe their mindset as opposed to what you yourself believe, I'll accept that, though I feel that that is but one small part of ISIS's motivations and does not explain them at all.

And as for the third point, I retract it as well. Perhaps a more accurate way of expressing my objection to your post is to say that I feel you are offering an explanation for ISIS's actions that I don't really find credible. I certainly don't think you share ISIS's cause or ideology (that would be absurd), and I'm sorry if I appeared to suggest otherwise (that would be equally absurd). However, I think that suggesting that their actions are motivated by something as common and human as revenge is a poor explanation for their mindset.

Bottom line: I don't agree with what you said but I let my anger get the better of me, didn't think through what I was saying enough, and went overboard with my attacks, for which I am sorry.

[Broomstick]

Thanas, since more than one person misinterpreted what you said you might consider that you didn't come across quite the way you intended.

[Thanas]

Bottom line: I don't agree with what you said but I let my anger get the better of me, didn't think through what I was saying enough, and went overboard with my attacks, for which I am sorry.

Apology accepted, no hard feelings.

Thanas, since more than one person misinterpreted what you said you might consider that you didn't come across quite the way you intended.

How about you go ahead and establish how my posts are "skirting close to thug apology" first? I'm still waiting on that one. Please identify the words in my posts that constitute "skirting close to thug apology". Because so far I have a very hard time understanding precisely what caused you to misinterpret my words.

[Broomstick]

Why don't you ask Romulan Republic that?

Here's an idea - next time you're speaking for someone else say something like "I think the mindset is..." or "I think their thought process is..." so it's clear that you're speculating on someone else's position. It certainly doesn't hurt when you're communicating in text, which lacks a lot of the non-verbal cues of face to face communication, to be abundantly clear.

What you said, and the ONLY thing you said in that post, was

Alternatively, it gets real easy for people who see their comrades burnt alive by western bombs to go "alright, we got one, let's do it to him".

Which sure as hell sounds like an attempted justification for murdering people in cold blood. It's the old eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, kill one of ours, we kill one of yours and the way it's presented it could be taken for your personal opinion or you attempting explain someone else's opinion.

I've apologized for making the wrong assumption, but apparently that's not enough for you. Romulan Republic also mentioned ISIS apologism, but that's apparently OK since he apologized - oh, wait, I did, too. So explain to me why you accepted his but not mine. HE told you to fuck off, I didn't go that far, but somehow I'm worse than he is? What the hell?

[Gandalf]

Why don't you ask Romulan Republic that?

Here's an idea - next time you're speaking for someone else say something like "I think the mindset is..." or "I think their thought process is..." so it's clear that you're speculating on someone else's position. It certainly doesn't hurt when you're communicating in text, which lacks a lot of the non-verbal cues of face to face communication, to be abundantly clear.

What you said, and the ONLY thing you said in that post, was

Alternatively, it gets real easy for people who see their comrades burnt alive by western bombs to go "alright, we got one, let's do it to him".

Which sure as hell sounds like an attempted justification for murdering people in cold blood. It's the old eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, kill one of ours, we kill one of yours and the way it's presented it could be taken for your personal opinion or you attempting explain someone else's opinion.

Considering that his post quoted mine, which was attempting to answer your question about mindset, does not the context make it pretty clear?