One town's war on gay teens

[sciguy]

you read the entire article, and this is the "religion is bad" money shot for you?

It seemed like the only one that hadn't already been beaten into the ground.

[sciguy]

You're seriously blaming a grieving mother for the suicide attempt of her other son? What a paragon of humanism you are.

To the extent that her telling her son something like "Your brother is in heaven now and one day you'll get to see him again, after you die," contributed to the suicide attempt, sure I blame her. Or are you prepared to argue that such a teaching was a good idea, even in light of the fact that it appears to have directly contributed to her younger son's motivation for attempting suicide?

[Narkis]

And if she'd told the kid "Your brother is gone for ever, you will never get to play with him again, life ain't fair, deal.", would you be blaming atheism for his resultant suicide attempt? Cause for some reason I don't think this'd help him get over his brother's death.

[The Yosemite Bear]

well now I'm beginning to understand why "A Seperate Peace" is required reading on the left coast and banned in Minnasota, and parts of the bible belt. God, I hated that book when I was in High School, but the depressing tale of boarding school,, gay curious teens, deliberately crippling someone so that they wouldn't leave you, and than death, and it's consequences....

TV Tropes

[sciguy]

And if she'd told the kid "Your brother is gone for ever, you will never get to play with him again, life ain't fair, deal.", would you be blaming atheism for his resultant suicide attempt? Cause for some reason I don't think this'd help him get over his brother's death.

Yeah, that's a nice false dilemma you've created there. It's not like there is some third option, where she could both provide emotional support for her grieving son but also not tell him that he'll magically get to see his brother again when he dies, right?

[evilsoup]

And when, as he inevitably will (religious community remember), the kid asks 'is my brother in heaven?' what do you think the mother should say? You have to remember that the idea of heaven is a comfort to many, many people.

[RedImperator]

You're seriously blaming a grieving mother for the suicide attempt of her other son? What a paragon of humanism you are.

To the extent that her telling her son something like "Your brother is in heaven now and one day you'll get to see him again, after you die," contributed to the suicide attempt, sure I blame her. Or are you prepared to argue that such a teaching was a good idea, even in light of the fact that it appears to have directly contributed to her younger son's motivation for attempting suicide?

Dude, if you had told us you could read minds, then nobody would have questioned you.

Oh wait, you probably can't. Which means you have absolutely no real idea what she said to her son to comfort him.

I mean, holy shit. The kid's older brother hangs himself, he's living in a town with a suicide epidemic, suicidal depression obviosly runs in the family, and you're zeroing in on the fact the kid believed in heaven as the fucking problem here, and pinning the blame on pretty much the only adult in the piece who's not a villain in some way or another. You don't think that maybe it's possible fucking depression had more to do with it? Probably thousands of kids are told every day that their big brother/mom/grandma/turtle is in heaven with God now, and most of them don't try to fucking drown themselves.

Anyway, it remains staggering to me that you could read this piece and this is what you take away from it, or think that this is the most comment-worthy piece. Not only is it not even close to the fucking point, if all you wanted to "contribute" was a "hey guys look at me Christianity is bad can I be part of the group now?" poast, you had a suicide plague caused by religious homophobia to work with. Not that posts like that are actually worth anything, but God damn.

[Akhlut]

And when, as he inevitably will (religious community remember), the kid asks 'is my brother in heaven?' what do you think the mother should say? You have to remember that the idea of heaven is a comfort to many, many people.

Plus, holy shit, there are people who sincerely believe in an afterlife.

Such monsters.

Faux indignation aside, though, I doubt that telling a little brother that his big brother is in heaven was the real catalyst to attempted suicide. He may have articulated it as such, but his older brother had just committed suicide mere days earlier. Regular old crushing grief can lead people to do drastic actions, regardless of specific beliefs in an afterlife.

[sciguy]

I mean, holy shit. The kid's older brother hangs himself, he's living in a town with a suicide epidemic, suicidal depression obviosly runs in the family, and you're zeroing in on the fact the kid believed in heaven hink that maybe it's possible fucking depression had more to do with it?

I said that I blame her to the extent that her religious teachings contributed. Since a desire to see his brother again was explicitly stated to be the reason for the suicide attempt, I'd say a belief that suicide would allow him to see his brother again was probably pretty fucking critical to his motivation.

Anyway, it remains staggering to me that you could read this piece and this is what you take away from it, or think that this is the most comment-worthy piece. Not only is it not even close to the fucking point, if all you wanted to "contribute" was a "hey guys look at me Christianity is bad can I be part of the group now?" poast, you had a suicide plague caused by religious homophobia to work with. Not that posts like that are actually worth anything, but God damn.

"I took away" many things from the article, but most of them were either so self-evident that it would be a waste of time to post them (religious homophobia is bad? REALLY? Shit, I totally missed that while reading the article, thanks for pointing that out!), or had already been covered in other posts.

It was interesting to me, however, that even as hateful religious teachings provided a reason for the school community to drive one of her children to suicide, religious teachings that were supposed to be "comforting" also provided a suicidal motivation for her other child. Would you have gotten your panties in less of a twist if I had prefaced that observation with a rehashing of a bunch of FUCKING OBVIOUS stuff about how the town is full of bigots, the school was negligent, etc?

[Baffalo]

I said that I blame her to the extent that her religious teachings contributed. Since a desire to see his brother again was explicitly stated to be the reason for the suicide attempt, I'd say a belief that suicide would allow him to see his brother again was probably pretty fucking critical to his motivation.

Or, it could've been that his depression made him start to think "If I died, I'd go to heaven and see my brother again, and everything'll be good again." If that's the case, then maybe, just fuckin maybe, the statement was a result of the depression and not the other way around.

"I took away" many things from the article, but most of them were either so self-evident that it would be a waste of time to post them (religious homophobia is bad? REALLY? Shit, I totally missed that while reading the article, thanks for pointing that out!), or had already been covered in other posts.

It was interesting to me, however, that even as hateful religious teachings provided a reason for the school community to drive one of her children to suicide, religious teachings that were supposed to be "comforting" also provided a suicidal motivation for her other child. Would you have gotten your panties in less of a twist if I had prefaced that observation with a rehashing of a bunch of FUCKING OBVIOUS stuff about how the town is full of bigots, the school was negligent, etc?

You're trying to justify your church bashing and that's the issue here. You're implying directly that religion is the main motivation for the suicide attempt, rather than being a contributing factor. As it's been stated MULTIPLE TIMES throughout this conversation, suicide is not triggered by a single event, no matter how much you want to believe it is. In this case, you're using your biased views of the church and religion to say "Hurr, religion must be bad cuz it causes suicide." Imagine if the church came out and said pornography causes rape? You'd think the church was stupid for saying such a thing because there's no correlation. Yes, there's a high percentage of rapists addicted to pornography, but it's a symptom of the problem and not the leading contributor. Same thing applies here. The religious teachings may have contributed to the attitude that death would be the better alternative to life, but IT WAS NOT THE MAIN CONTRIBUTOR HERE.

Yes, the church sponsored gay bashing is to blame for causing several students to commit suicide, but the kid was raised by his mom to believe in God and that when his brother died, he went to Heaven. Pretty standard. Numerous other kids in the town were taught the same damned thing. Did they try to commit suicide? Doubtful. The suicide rate is high because the gay students are killing themselves, which triggers depression and an idea that suicide is a viable solution in the minds of others. The church is not directly telling these kids not to, and in fact, MANY CHURCHES CLAIM SUICIDE LEADS STRAIGHT TO HELL! So why would kids wanting to get into Heaven commit suicide? Because they see their friends doing it as a result of being pressured for their sexuality.

[RedImperator]

I mean, holy shit. The kid's older brother hangs himself, he's living in a town with a suicide epidemic, suicidal depression obviosly runs in the family, and you're zeroing in on the fact the kid believed in heaven hink that maybe it's possible fucking depression had more to do with it?

I said that I blame her to the extent that her religious teachings contributed. Since a desire to see his brother again was explicitly stated to be the reason for the suicide attempt, I'd say a belief that suicide would allow him to see his brother again was probably pretty fucking critical to his motivation.

You know fuck all about his actual motivation or her religious teachings. You don't even know if she's taught him any religious teachings (I see you've quietly backed away from "She probably said God heaven XYZ whatever"). All you know is a 9-year-old believes that heaven exists and it's a place where you can see your dead relatives after you die, and that he was depressed enough after his brother's death (from suicide) to attempt suicide himself. You have absolutely nothing to go on here except some unholier-than-thou atheist dead horse to flog. No shit society would be better off without religion; thanks for the fucking revealation.

"I took away" many things from the article, but most of them were either so self-evident that it would be a waste of time to post them (religious homophobia is bad? REALLY? Shit, I totally missed that while reading the article, thanks for pointing that out!), or had already been covered in other posts.

It was interesting to me, however, that even as hateful religious teachings provided a reason for the school community to drive one of her children to suicide, religious teachings that were supposed to be "comforting" also provided a suicidal motivation for her other child. Would you have gotten your panties in less of a twist if I had prefaced that observation with a rehashing of a bunch of FUCKING OBVIOUS stuff about how the town is full of bigots, the school was negligent, etc?

No, you dumb shit, I would have preferred you kept your dumb fuck mouth shut if you didn't have anything useful to contribute. And spare me the "oh gee whiz isn't this ironic and interesting" backpeadling: your original post was as follows:

This seems to provide a horrible real-world example of what can go wrong when you raise children to believe in a magical afterlife...

This is pure "hurr hurr religion bad" with a side of "look at the damage that silly Christian did to her son". I'm sorry, but at this point in the game, "religion bad" isn't an interesting or informative post--you missed that boat by about 10 years.

There are tons of interesting things worth pursuing in this article--how to make safe spaces for gay kids, the moral responsibility of teachers when they feel their jobs are at stake, the role the law plays in protecting out groups, how schools deal with bullying, the psychology behind suicide epidemics, the insidious empowering effect silence has on bigots, how community pathologies spill into schools and how schools can resist them, the effacacy of suicide prevention programs, and probably a hundred other things. You picked "hurr hurr Christianity bad", picked the least obvious and most dubious example of it, and then got fucking butthurt when it didn't get the polite applause you were apparently expecting.

PS: Everyone else, no dogpiling. This doesn't need to be a six on one argument.

[Darth Wong]

And when, as he inevitably will (religious community remember), the kid asks 'is my brother in heaven?' what do you think the mother should say? You have to remember that the idea of heaven is a comfort to many, many people.

Plus, holy shit, there are people who sincerely believe in an afterlife.

Sincerity of belief doesn't affect the social utility of that belief, one way or another. Evilsoup is being criticized for making a Facebook-style post, nor for failing to recognize the importance of sincerity of belief.

[Akhlut]

And when, as he inevitably will (religious community remember), the kid asks 'is my brother in heaven?' what do you think the mother should say? You have to remember that the idea of heaven is a comfort to many, many people.

Plus, holy shit, there are people who sincerely believe in an afterlife.

Sincerity of belief doesn't affect the social utility of that belief, one way or another. Evilsoup is being criticized for making a Facebook-style post, nor for failing to recognize the importance of sincerity of belief.

I think it's sciguy for whom the ire is directed.

But the main issue I was trying to drive at is that it is unlikely that simply religious expression amounts to jack-all squat for the younger brother's suicide attempt. Simply saying that the older brother is in heaven would not drive a child to suicide on its own, whereas living in a town where suicide seems to be the go-to solution for "coping" with stress, in addition to massive grief, are much more likely explanations.

It also kind of irks me to see such a simplistic explanation thrown out for this tragic series of events and jumping to the conclusion "man, if only the mother didn't tell the younger brother that his sibling was in heaven!" For certain tragedies, yes, a single change would have prevented a great deal of sorrow, but the younger brother's suicide attempt was probably going to happen regardless of what he was told. Because children are impulsive and have great difficulty contemplating consequences, so I find it very difficult to believe that merely omitting a belief in the older brother's destination in the afterlife would have made much, if any difference.

So, mea culpa if I wasn't clear enough with my prior post.

[sciguy]

Ok, fair enough. In my defense, I made my original post while I was annoyed due to a religious debate that I was having on another message board, and after reading this article I was basically pissed off and very much in the mood to take a cheap shot at religion, which was what my original post was. So anway, sorry for the shit post. In retrospect I should have backed down immediately, but I tend to get combative and dig in when people point out that I'm being full of shit.

[RedImperator]

Ok, fair enough. In my defense, I made my original post while I was annoyed due to a religious debate that I was having on another message board, and after reading this article I was basically pissed off and very much in the mood to take a cheap shot at religion, which was what my original post was. So anway, sorry for the shit post. In retrospect I should have backed down immediately, but I tend to get combative and dig in when people point out that I'm being full of shit.

It's cool; shit like that happens on this board from time to time. Props for owning up, at any rate.