EU states miss refugee targets agreement

[The Romulan Republic]

Truth be told, I'm more scared of Right wing extremists than Muslim extremists. Though that might partly be an American perspective, seeing as how they're one disastrous Presidential election victory away from controlling a nuclear arsenal here.

And yet, you don't see me saying all conservatives should be barred from the country.

[Broomstick]

2. Yes I do worry about Africans, I would be a lot more happy with immigrants from Vietnam or China where people are able to read and have a culture that puts an emphasis on going to work.

Funny. My area has a group of the Lost Boys of Sudan. These kids (actually, quite a few are adults now) came from an early iron age level of tech, no schooling, had to be taught how to use very simple things like light switches when they arrived.

Most of them are now self-supporting, several are well-respected businessmen and entrepreneurs. So it's entirely possible for African refugees coming from the more dire and primitive of circumstances can fully integrate into a modern, western society. Some of the older and more successful ones are now sponsoring and guiding other newcomers. Seems to be working out pretty well - of course, they went through a brutal selection process before arriving even at refugee camps, arguably only the healthiest, more determined, and resourceful survived to be rescued. Probably a good thing most refugees don't have to go through what they did.

Admittedly, this did take some investment on the part of the community. They weren't just dumped into a refugee camp or "special housing" - they were assigned mentors, there were psychologists to help with both the trauma that lead to them being refugees and in adapting to a completely new culture, and so forth. They also weren't all concentrated in one place, over 30 areas accepted those coming to the US. Granted, Sweden has less land area to do such a thing than the US, but overly concentrating refugees usually doesn't have a good outcome.

So yes, there are significant problems with integrating newcomers into a society. There are problems with adequately educating the kids. It takes more than just providing just a bare room and a little food. It's something every country accepting refugees struggles with. It is not, however, impossible.

3. Yes, I am worried about Africans. We should be accepting far fewer Africans. We have no ability to integrate that many Africans. The areas with many Africans will turn into weird Swedish mini-Detroits.

Er... there's quite a bit wrong with that statement.

It wasn't the black population that sent Detroit down the toilet - Detroit had a large, vibrant black population for decades. It wasn't even the big riot that resulted in the National Guard that sunk that city (although it didn't help). It was really the collapse of the American auto industry in the 1970's, where massive numbers of jobs were lost and the city bled money that killed it. Also, the vast majority of black people in Detroit came from families that had been in the US for well over a century, they weren't newcomers.

Then there is the fact that many of us former Detroiters have successfully integrated ourselves into other parts of the US. Also, not all of us are black.

I'll not address the alleged inability to integrate Africans - I don't know enough about Sweden to know if that's actually true or not.

7. Yes, it is my belief that immigration from countries where the ruling system is based on clans and warlords will result in that kind of system being brought with them. And that is what is happening in Malmö, Rinkeyby, Husby, Tensta.

Which is one reason you don't want to ghettoize the immigrants, you want to spread them out. That's why when the US accepts large groups, like the Hmong, or groups from radically difficult cultures, like the Lost Boys, a lot of effort is expended on preventing isolation. That doesn't mean preventing them from getting together or keeping a lot of their culture, but you don't want to make it too easy for them to live wholly within an ethnic enclave. They have to deal with the mainstream.

Again, the US has an advantage there because we have so much more open space, but if you're concentrating all your refugees into just a few major cities yes, that can be a problem. On the other hand, it is possible to exceed the "carrying capacity" of an area for refugees. Whether or not that has occurred in Sweden I don't have enough information to say either way.

On the other hand, the UK is an island and yet has managed to accommodate people from all over the world. Even limiting it to just the Commonwealth represents a substantial number of nations and ethnicities. Does this always work perfectly? No, of course not, but oddly enough they seem to cope with the problem reasonably well. At least as well as the US or Canada and probably better in some respects. (I think some of the Latin American nations are also in the forefront of dealing with diverse ethnicities and refugees, but I don't know enough detail to really be definite).

Again - no one does this perfectly. There are always problems. But some nations do handle it better than others and maybe folks should look at what does and doesn't work.

8. It does not matter what we should do, the end result is that Sweden will be ruled by political parties that do not accept further immigration. That will happen after the election 2018, probably. Might be until 2022 if all the other parties combine to form some weird counter-goveremnt. But that is looking less and less likely. In a bit more distant future, we will also have political parties backed by our new immigrant population and forgive me when I say that I doubt they will be based on progressive values. More likely they will be some light version of Hezbollah in terms of values.

You know, the US has been through that cycle several times - welcoming immigrants, not welcoming immigrants, welcoming them again... It used to be only English and German were desirable, those damn dirty Irish/Greek/Italian/whatever were scum, then they were OK and it was some other group, then they were OK, then....

It is not inevitable that the hostile bigots take over.

If there ever is a local crisis with a lot of real children who needs to flee in the future, like what happened in Jugoslavia, they will not be allowed to Sweden because we broke the existing system.

Taking care of genuine orphans - which is what you're talking about - is even harder than taking care of adults. (One requirement for Lost Boys coming to the US is that they were genuine orphans). It represents a much greater investment of time, energy, manpower, money, and resources.

If you can't handle adults I question if you can handle a large influx of orphans. In which case they might be better off going elsewhere, if possible.

This is the question I want answers to, how many immigrants should move from the rest of the world to Europe every year? Nobody ever wants to put numbers on that.

How many people should you allow to die because you don't accept them? Because that's what will happen to a certain number of them. For a couple decades Florida (and other Caribbean locations) have had dead Cubans wash up on shore because not everyone survives that crossing. No one knows how many Haitians have been lost at sea. A couple hundred people attempting to cross the desert from Mexico to the southern US die every year. More die every year within the US when their illicit transportation goes wrong. I've heard all sorts of estimates on people dying while trying to cross from Africa to Europe by boat. Nor is this new - at least a quarter of the 900+ Jewish refugees on the St Louis seeking asylum in the western hemisphere in 1939 later died in European concentration camps.

If you don't take in refugees some of them will die.

If you take in too many you risk all sorts of problems at the destination location.

How many are too many? How many resources to invest in newcomers? These aren't always easy questions but if you're ethical you have to address them.

[Thanas]

This thread is a shitshow, from Irbis talking out of his ass to cosmicalstorm being racist as usual.

Locked.