"Stand your Ground" still standing

[Formless]

Yeah, down sounds good at first, but... well, its not just an issue for those who want to fire warning shots, but a matter of general gun safety. If you have had gun safety training, then you get a more expansive set of safety rules than the first three. "Don't point it in an unsafe direction" is easy to follow at a range because the safe direction is always downrange. But in real life scenarios, such as while hunting, you need to know a default direction if nowhere else is known. Down risks shooting yourself in the foot, shooting a solid object like a rock that might ricochet at full velocity into someone (most likely yourself), and if you have a rifle or shotgun and you are not on pavement you don't want to put the barrel in the dirt and cause a blockage; if you do, the damn thing might just explode when you pull the trigger. Up isn't perfectly safe, but then nowhere is a perfect direction.

[Kitsune]

The racking of a shotgun is pretty disturbing

[Simon_Jester]

Firing warning shots is a really bad idea, the only people who get to do it are the Navy and Coast Guard, while at sea. Bullets don't just disappear, you know, you could very easily kill someone blocks away from whatever altercation lead you to fire your shot.

It's a bad idea, but there's something profoundly wrong with the situation when the prosecutor can send you to jail for firing a warning shot when you believe yourself to be in danger, because "if you really thought you were in danger, you would have shot to kill." It seems like we're penalizing people for trying not to kill the belligerent idiot in front of them.

There are precedents for this to be a concern; I'd have to dig a bit.

[Napoleon the Clown]

ITT we learn who should not own a gun.


Never pull the trigger unless you intend to destroy something. Warning shots are fucking stupid and a horrible violation of gun safety. The bullet has to go somewhere, and even firing it straight up can hit someone. You don't know where it will come down, and people have been hit by bullets the were fired up. People have died from this exact thing happening, in fact. Straight up may be slightly less stupid, but it's still fucking stupid. A gun shouldn't be pulled as a way to make someone back down. If a gun comes out, it should be with the intent of killing the attacker. If they decide to back off then you don't need to go through with shooting them, but it should not come out just as a threat.

[Formless]

ITT we learn who should not own a gun.

Might want to tone down the condescension, mate. Even Simon has conceded that warning shots are a bad idea, everyone else has said warning shots are a bad idea, and my own posts about where to point a weapon when no "safe" direction is known have only been to clarify how the rules of gun safety apply outside the artificial confines of a shooting range.

Also, I would really like to see some documented cases of people dying from bullets falling on their heads. Or even getting hit. That would be refreshing when the same thing has been said multiple times now.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

There was that case mentioned on the Mythbusters where a man was killed by a random bullet arcing down from the sky, so there's at least one.

Edit: If it's not clear, it wasn't part of the myth but a newspaper article brought in at the end to show yeah it is possible.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Okay, sure:

In the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, for example, about two people die and about 25 more are injured each year from celebratory gunfire on New Year's Eve, the CDC says.

Source

Happy?

[Formless]

That's better. Less huffing and puffing and more putting your money where your mouth is.

[Mr. Coffee]

That's better. Less huffing and puffing and more putting your money where your mouth is.

Or more just using your noodle and remembering that "gravity" thing they taught you about in school. After all, Third Law of Gun Safety states "be aware of your target and what is beyond it". If you make the decision to pull the trigger without having sights on a target and awareness of what's downrange of that target then you're being a negligent asshole and should never be allowed around a water pistol, much less an actual firearm.

Just sayin', buddy...

[Formless]

Just sayin, Coffee, you aren't adding anything that hasn't already been discussed.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Firing warning shots is a really bad idea, the only people who get to do it are the Navy and Coast Guard, while at sea. Bullets don't just disappear, you know, you could very easily kill someone blocks away from whatever altercation lead you to fire your shot.

It's a bad idea, but there's something profoundly wrong with the situation when the prosecutor can send you to jail for firing a warning shot when you believe yourself to be in danger, because "if you really thought you were in danger, you would have shot to kill." It seems like we're penalizing people for trying not to kill the belligerent idiot in front of them.

There are precedents for this to be a concern; I'd have to dig a bit.

It seems counterintuitive at first, I know, but from my understanding of the laws, (which may well be incomplete or flawed) the intent is to reinforce the idea that drawing a gun on somebody is ALWAYS SERIOUS SHIT, so you don't do it until "shoot to kill" is the only option left to you, and even then, there WILL be consequences. A gun, especially a handgun, exists for one reason, to kill things. Its not something you use to win an argument, its not a negotiation aid, and you don't brandish or fire it as a warning, that's Hollywood bullshit.

[Kamakazie Sith]

ITT we learn who should not own a gun.

Might want to tone down the condescension, mate. Even Simon has conceded that warning shots are a bad idea, everyone else has said warning shots are a bad idea, and my own posts about where to point a weapon when no "safe" direction is known have only been to clarify how the rules of gun safety apply outside the artificial confines of a shooting range.

Also, I would really like to see some documented cases of people dying from bullets falling on their heads. Or even getting hit. That would be refreshing when the same thing has been said multiple times now.

Source

Source

Source

[Siege]

Personal feeling, probably institutional bias from the Marine Corps, is that there is no such thing as a warning shot.

Dutch police fire warning shots on a somewhat regular basis and to the best of my knowledge nobody's got grievously injured or killed by them. Because our firearms situation is extremely different those same Dutch police are much less likely to come under (return) fire, so I'd be willing to accept it might not be feasible for American police officers or indeed civilians to fire warning shots as frequently (for example because the high ratio of gun ownership means situations escalate to deadly force much more quickly in the USA, or perhaps because the rarity of firearms means drawing one has comparatively more impact)... But at the same time I have to object to the sentiment I see commonly expressed that there's no such thing as warning shots. Because there is such a thing, and it is quite frequently employed to great and positive effect.

[Simon_Jester]

Also, again, because I feel that this biases our use of "self-defense" as a means to justify armed self-defense. It biases the system in favor of people who, upon drawing a weapon, are ruthless about using it. And it biases the system against those who are most averse to using a weapon to kill, but nevertheless believe they need a weapon to secure their safety.

[Mr. Coffee]

Just sayin, Coffee, you aren't adding anything that hasn't already been discussed.

Dude, it took an entire page of multiple people trying to explain to you that shooting into the air if a dumb idea, and reading back I'm suspecting that the only reason it didn't keep going is someone had to show you a fucking CDC link showing that yes, people actually die from that shit. For fuck's sake, use your head, guy. This shit ain't rocket surgery.

[Formless]

Coffee, I will not explain to you one more time. I am NOT advocating warning shots, and I never have. I am merely explaining the expanded rules of gun safety and why I was taught that, and if you had bothered to read the thread you would know this. I know that a bullet can kill if it falls on your head, and I knew that for a fact when I came here. What I asked for was confirmation that this actually happens, and isn't just an old wives tale, because the basis of that rule as I was taught it was that it is massively unlikely compared to pointing the weapon any other direction. Now fuck off back to your bridge before this gets ugly. This is ridiculous, and I don't have to take it from you. Everyone else seems to get it. I can't see why you don't, unless the point for you is scoring easy points or trolling.

[Mr. Coffee]

I know that a bullet can kill if it falls on your head, and I knew that for a fact when I came here. What I asked for was confirmation that this actually happens, and isn't just an old wives tale, because the basis of that rule as I was taught it was that it is massively unlikely compared to pointing the weapon any other direction.

1. If you knew this then why were you asking for evidence that it can and has happened, fuckwit?

2. Whoever taught you to shoot was a fucking idiot. You don't discharge a firearm in any direction other than at a sighted target you intend to kill/destroy. If whoever trained you didn't teach you that then they failed utterly.

Now fuck off back to your bridge before this gets ugly. This is ridiculous, and I don't have to take it from you. Everyone else seems to get it. I can't see why you don't, unless the point for you is scoring easy points or trolling.

Kid, last time we did this you ended up looking like a fucking idiot. You really want to go there again, Snowflake?

[Formless]

1. If you knew this then why were you asking for evidence that it can and has happened, fuckwit?

Because it sounds like the kind of thing that is highly unlikely not impossible.

2. Whoever taught you to shoot was a fucking idiot. You don't discharge a firearm in any direction other than at a sighted target you intend to kill/destroy. If whoever trained you didn't teach you that then they failed utterly.

They never taught me to actually shoot into the air you condescending prick. They taught me that it was a relatively safe direction. Seriously, go play in traffic, you illiterate troll.

Kid, last time we did this you ended up looking like a fucking idiot. You really want to go there again, Snowflake?

I'd say I'm a bit older than that now, and I'm more aware of when someone is pursuing a vendetta.

[Mr. Coffee]

1. If you knew this then why were you asking for evidence that it can and has happened, fuckwit?

Because it sounds like the kind of thing that is highly unlikely not impossible.

Yet you still needed proof that fucking gravity effects bullets... And sometimes the bullets come down and hit people. Really?

They never taught me to actually shoot into the air you condescending prick. They taught me that it was a relatively safe direction.

Same difference, you moron. They taught you that shooting in the air, at nothing and with no fucking idea of where that bullet might end up, is at all safe. Christ on a bike, did they teach you to flash the muzzle over people while walking around with your finger inside the trigger guard too?

I'd say I'm a bit older than that now, and I'm more aware of when someone is pursuing a vendetta.

Really? You're back to that tired ass shit? Hey, Snowflake, 2008 called and they want their vendettopath gimmick back.

[Thanas]

Formless, Coffee, stop this. Right now.

ITT we learn who should not own a gun.

According to you, apparently this includes several police forces of European countries.

Never pull the trigger unless you intend to destroy something. Warning shots are fucking stupid and a horrible violation of gun safety. The bullet has to go somewhere, and even firing it straight up can hit someone. You don't know where it will come down, and people have been hit by bullets the were fired up. People have died from this exact thing happening, in fact. Straight up may be slightly less stupid, but it's still fucking stupid.

German police fire warning shots all the time and haven't injured or killed anyone while also not killing anyone with them and are killing way less people on average than the US when they use their guns. You are wrong about this.

[Mr. Coffee]

German police fire warning shots all the time and haven't injured or killed anyone while also not killing anyone with them and are killing way less people on average than the US when they use their guns. You are wrong about this.

You're also talking about trained LEOs. There's a lot of difference between average trained professionals and the average civilian. Cop is probably going to be a lot more mindful of where and at what their gun is pointed at than a civilian in a deadly force situation. Once pucker factor kicks in that training (or lack of) really shows.

[Mr. Coffee]

Formless, Coffee, stop this. Right now.

What the fuck ever, Dad.... seriously, bitch want to get a name for himself, then let him.He already tried once and failed... Maybe, just maybe, if we wish hard enough Snowflake won't be such
a bitch.

We tried it once and it worked, right....

[RogueIce]

Dutch police fire warning shots on a somewhat regular basis and to the best of my knowledge nobody's got grievously injured or killed by them. Because our firearms situation is extremely different those same Dutch police are much less likely to come under (return) fire, so I'd be willing to accept it might not be feasible for American police officers or indeed civilians to fire warning shots as frequently (for example because the high ratio of gun ownership means situations escalate to deadly force much more quickly in the USA, or perhaps because the rarity of firearms means drawing one has comparatively more impact)... But at the same time I have to object to the sentiment I see commonly expressed that there's no such thing as warning shots. Because there is such a thing, and it is quite frequently employed to great and positive effect.

According to you, apparently this includes several police forces of European countries.

Never pull the trigger unless you intend to destroy something. Warning shots are fucking stupid and a horrible violation of gun safety. The bullet has to go somewhere, and even firing it straight up can hit someone. You don't know where it will come down, and people have been hit by bullets the were fired up. People have died from this exact thing happening, in fact. Straight up may be slightly less stupid, but it's still fucking stupid.

German police fire warning shots all the time and haven't injured or killed anyone while also not killing anyone with them and are killing way less people on average than the US when they use their guns. You are wrong about this.

I'd be interested to know what the policies and practices are for this, given that there are documented cases of injuries and fatalities from falling bullets, to avoid unintended injury and property damage (which can also occur, though is comparatively less serious).

In any event, I'd say Coffee is right: even if we did allow for trained LEOs to fire warning shots, I don't think that should be extended toward, much less encouraged for, your average citizens.

[Napoleon the Clown]

What RogueIce said applies to my view as well. I'm pretty strong in my views regarding gun safety. A gun's capacity to cause harm is so large that to treat one with anything but respect is courting disaster. Unsafe firearm handling is about as stupid as trying to run through heavy, fast moving traffic. Except you're more likely to hurt or kill someone else when you mishandle a gun.

I don't trust the average person to know when and where it's safe to fire "warning shots." And the more people you have thinking it's okay to fire them the more chance there will be of someone getting shot. I'm gonna assume that the police in countries that do fire warning shots are trained on where to point the gun when firing and when it's acceptable to fire. The average person should assume that warning shots are never okay because of the risk of hitting an innocent bystander.

tl;dr: I consider gun safety to be serious fucking business because guns were invented to kill people and they've only gotten better at doing just that. The consequences can be catastrophic.

[Thanas]

Here is what I think - if we discourage warning shots to be fired, we encourage deadly force to be used. Because if I am trained with the mindset of "Innocent person might get hurt" then why not unload at the guy if you think verbal warnings are not enough?

(Also, it is somewhat disingenious to compare celebratory gunfire to this as those include much more discharges than a single warning shot).

Warning shots are required in Germany for regular folks as well. I am getting pretty tired at this constant "WARNING SHOTS ARE DANGEROUS" argument that is being brought up whenever the topic comes up. In over 20 years of police and civilian weapon usage in Germany not a single person was wounded or killed by warning shot. And given how much more densely populated Germany is (not to speak of the Netherlands, which are even more jampacked)...well. Why am I required to repeat myself ad nauseam whenever this topic is brought up despite me having posted the relevant statistics several times already?