Krugman on newsnight

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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by PainRack »

KrauserKrauser wrote:Also Krugman is on record as recommendig the creation of a bubble in real estate to.counteract the internet bubble popping. The man is dangerous and should be ridiculed.for his horrible advice.
Anyone can go back to his NYT blog and see the exact opposite,whereo he noticed the property bubble before it popped.

Wanna bet your statement is taken out of context?

Its not as if America is Japan. America does need to rebuild its aging infrastructure just to reduce water wastage and prevent bridge collapsing. Any investment in construction will be of great benefit in thr
future.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by Blayne »

Any analysis of the increased government spending in WW2 is of course ignoring the MASSIVE AUSTERITY that was imposed on the entire.US population.
Rationing isn't austerity in the common sense of the word, everyone had jobs, shelter, food, clothing and economic mobility that the opportunities from the expanding economy brought. The New Deal policies weren't suspending during the war afterall and were a fundamental part of the growing standard of living and the growth of the middle class.

I don't see how the destruction of much of Europe had much to do with it, after all European GDP recovered very quickly and yet we didn't see the US economy falter as a result. And since American GDP was focused on armaments throughout the entire period you can't logically claim that Europe's devastation made way for US exports.

Major firms had capital thanks to lucrative government contracts, the population had plenty of war bonds, new markets that were once closed due to protectionism were opened up thanks to GATT and other free trade agreements there was huge demand for consumer goods and a large modern industry and hard working workforce willing to work for it. "Keynesian" economics frankly worked in getting the industry recovered and booming again even when the demand for war material rapidly receded in the wake of V-J Day because consumer demand picked up the slack.

War production for the purposes of capital destruction is an orwellian totalitarian concept of economic deprivation of the populace to keep them stupid it is not, and I stress this 100% what "Keynesian" economics proposes; there is a distinction, seeing massive armaments spending as stimulating for economic growth and recovery is just simply a subset of massive economic investment in infrastructure in general like for example Ike Eisenhower's investment in the interstate highway system which is a massive infrastructure investment and the road to alaska (that was during WWII I think but its still investment for the future).

Then there's all that war R&D that has turned into massive multipliers for technological growth of GDP...

Finally I would like a source to your claim about Krugman, it's almost certainly missing context.

I was *also* on my phone when I first read your post, so I couldn't respond :(

Hopefully the Austrian School vs "Keynesian" thread at Something Awful is still around and not requiring archive privileges to read, I got most of my general thoughts on the debate from there like for example how the Austrian school isn't even remotely mainstream and is a fringe economic school of thought.

So far the discussion has been very civil, lets hope it continues that way.
Austerity...
"Austerity" in the current debate is about cutting social services and other wealth distribution services that directly harm the poor and puts the tax burden disproportionally on them while reducing the same burden on the "job creators" because of crony capitalism.

Austerity during a recession fundamentally makes things worse as it cuts jobs and further hurts demand which further hurts job and economic growth. What makes recessions so bad isn't the sluggish growth its the drop of GDP with respect to your debt, debt isn't a problem its having your economy not able to outgrow your debt is where things get ugly. Because each round of austerity hurts the economy the debt problem gets worse so they cut more and so on and so forth.

But paleoconservatives aren't interested in really solving the crisis, they are pursuing an ideologically driven agenda that is fundamentally dishonest where they ignore the facts and the data and attempt to force through measures designed to reduce the size of government to favor business partners and cut down on regulations that get in the way of profits.

You see the results of this extremely easily in how in the US despite job losses and slow job growth, productivity has been going through the rough. Because they make the remaining workers work harder and invest in other manpower cutting technologies and processes to be more efficient but are otherwise not investing in expanding their business or increasing sales because there's no demand! There's no demand because because we're in a recession we can't get out of because half the conversation doesn't want a recovery because they would rather screw over all the poor people so they can make government irreversibly smaller and businesses bigger! While keeping the paramilitary police state fully funded and expanded.

@Painrack completely agree.

@ Surlethe The problem with US inflationary targets is that they aren't letting inflation go up and its a huge problem for US recovery. If they inflated a little the debt would be partly devalued and the "job creators" would be forced to invest their savings into something worthwhile and stimulate demand otherwise see their savings drop in value.

But this isn't happened which I believe Krugman also points out in other texts, the Fed is deathly afraid of inflation and won't let it budge. Though I'm assuming your referring to the US, if your referring to Britain or the EU then I have no idea.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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@Zentai

It's a function of socio-economic-geography shit.

I dunno how much you know about the UK in detail - but basically you can cut the UK into 3 horizontal stripes.

The very top stripe is the Scottish highlands - good for growing stones, and got some oil fields but basically nothing for fucking miles. some subsistance farmers

The middle stripe is the North (from the Scottish lowlands down to say Birmingham. I'd nlcude South Wales in this section too) - This was the industrial heartland of the UK - it went from villages to cites in a generation during the industral revolution. It was where the coal, steel and work was. Note the past tense. This area is the Labour Party's main voting block.

The bottom stripe is the South. The left hand half is still basically agricultural, while the right hand half is basically London and satellites. This was historically the seat of the rich powerholding landowners, and is now is the same, but with the financial industry added. This area is the Conservatives main voting block.


The previous Labour goverment had poured huge resources into the North, with social services, libraries ect but especially job creation either directly working for the goverment or working for a company that did govement contracts. The North had basically rotted since the previous Tory goverment, and under the influence of this the North did start to regenerate - Manchester Docklands, Liverpool Docklands, all these big areas of useless Victorian industrial brownfield suddenly becoming apartment blocks, art galleries, cafes ect. It was good, but the bulk of the regeneration relied on the pump of government money.

Since the Tories dislike spending goverment money on 'frivolous services better done by the private sector', they cut funding all over the UK. This did hurt poor areas in the South too - inner London (tempered by the fact the Mayor there has an independent budget), but simply because of the initial distribution of poverty, the North was hit massively compared to the comfortable areas that vote conservative.

Cue massive shrinking of demand and recession.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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If demand is falling, how come inflation is still above 3%? If your story is correct, the inflation rate suggests that the supply side of the economy is collapsing even faster than the demand side.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by madd0ct0r »

is that addressed to me or Blayne?
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by Surlethe »

You.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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Blayne wrote:@ Surlethe The problem with US inflationary targets is that they aren't letting inflation go up and its a huge problem for US recovery. If they inflated a little the debt would be partly devalued and the "job creators" would be forced to invest their savings into something worthwhile and stimulate demand otherwise see their savings drop in value.
I don't think that's the mechanism by which higher inflation would help fix the US' economic woes, since for example savings are already invested and high debt is not currently an issue. But you are right that we shouldn't be afraid of more inflation.
But this isn't happened which I believe Krugman also points out in other texts, the Fed is deathly afraid of inflation and won't let it budge. Though I'm assuming your referring to the US, if your referring to Britain or the EU then I have no idea.
I know about the Fed's abandonment of its dual mandate. I was referring to the UK.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by madd0ct0r »

from the IMF's report:

http://www.imf.org/external/np/ms/2012/052212.htm
1. Current policies are aimed at assisting economic rebalancing and financial sector stability.
Strong fiscal consolidation is underway and reducing the high structural deficit over the medium term remains essential. The UK has made substantial progress toward achieving a more sustainable budgetary position and reducing fiscal risks. Bold monetary stimulus has helped support the economy, as has the free operation of automatic fiscal stabilizers. This macroeconomic policy mix assists in rebalancing the economy toward investment and external demand. Further, financial sector stability in the UK is of global importance as highlighted in spillover analysis. In this context, policies have encouraged the buildup of capital and liquidity buffers, the domestic oversight framework is being strengthened, and work is underway to enhance the capacity to deal with systemically important financial institutions.

2. But the economy has been flat. The hand-off from public to private demand-led growth has not fully materialized. ...

3. The recovery is expected to gain pace, but much productive capacity could remain idle for an extended period. The projected modest pick up in growth in the second half of 2012 is premised on less drag from budget consolidation this fiscal year, the dissipation of last year’s commodity price shocks, and an assumed easing of strains in the euro area. Over the medium term, economic activity is expected to gain additional momentum, but the continued headwinds from private-sector deleveraging and the need to reduce the structural fiscal deficit will constrain the pace. The output gap is projected to remain sizeable for an extended period, raising the risk of hysteresis as sustained cyclical weakness reduces the economy’s productive capacity.

4. Inflation is falling. Inflation has been on a downward trend since peaking in September 2011, as the impact of indirect tax hikes and commodity price shocks have begun to dissipate. This trend will continue as the large output gap exerts disinflationary pressure. Thus inflation is expected to decline below the 2 percent target over the next 18-24 months with an unchanged macroeconomic stance and barring any sustained increase in commodity prices.

5. Risks are large and tilted clearly to the downside....

6. Policies to bolster demand should help close the output gap faster. It needs to be recognized that policy options in this regard come with risks, including uncertainty about their effectiveness. However, these risks need to be weighed against the risk of weak demand that leads to persistently slow growth and high unemployment that become entrenched in decisions made by consumers and investors.

7. Further monetary easing is required. Anemic nominal wage growth and broadly stable inflation expectations suggest underlying inflationary pressure is weak, providing space for greater monetary easing. That said, uncertainty about inflation dynamics and the strength of disinflationary pressure coming from the output gap imply risks that inflation could take longer-than-expected to return to target, with convergence being further delayed by additional monetary easing. Nonetheless, the cost of such a delay is likely to be low relative to the benefits of a more rapid closing of the output gap.
...
italics mine
It continues up to point 17, although the latter points are suggestion for how to apply more money, not whether to do so.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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So demand is not collapsing, it's staying steady but not growing robustly and the UK is only slowly erasing the production shortfall from 2008. That's what I'm seeing.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by Simon_Jester »

Alternatively, demand did collapse, past tense, and is only very slowly recovering because the current policies don't allow a fast recovery, because they prevent any broad rises in the fortunes of the average Briton?

Assuming "the status quo is normal and the policies I'm thinking about only have to do with how things are changing" won't work here. When looking an assessment of the present to judge the consequences of policies in the past, you have to read between the lines.

Demand in Britain isn't collapsing now, but that doesn't mean it didn't collapse when the state stopped investing in the North. The present government took office two years ago. Any problems that their opening round of policies made worse already are worse, and are going to remain so as long as those policies are in place.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by UnderAGreySky »

Lord Zentei wrote:How serious have these austerity measures been, really? I see a lot of hype about them, but not much in the way of substance.

Besides which, your characterization of their policies as "'Austerity for the everyone else!' - 'eliminate goverment services, except in our areas!'" doesn't seem to imply that you agree that they have been very austere in actual point of fact.
If you go to this page and download the Excel file, you'll see public sector employment has dropped by around 400,000 since Q4 in 2009.

This will not include the number of employees laid off by companies as part of public-private partnerships (which are in a big way there).

But more importantly, there is this:

Image

Austerity, by definition, is a drop in purchase of goods by the government. This is down by two percentage points.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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Simon_Jester wrote:Alternatively, demand did collapse, past tense, and is only very slowly recovering because the current policies don't allow a fast recovery, because they prevent any broad rises in the fortunes of the average Briton?
Isn't that what I said?
Demand in Britain isn't collapsing now, but that doesn't mean it didn't collapse when the state stopped investing in the North. The present government took office two years ago. Any problems that their opening round of policies made worse already are worse, and are going to remain so as long as those policies are in place.
I can't really speak to the UK in any detail. I have heard (hearsay!) that the UK has major supply-side issues. We've even seen some threads here about those, like the horrid state of housing in London. Austerity hasn't crippled demand, since the BOE has been keeping demand on a reasonable track, but the real economy is going nowhere fast despite high inflation. So it my guess is that there's a big production gap after the nominal crash in '08, but the supply side of the economy is so sclerotic it's having difficulty properly making up lost ground, which is why inflation and employment aren't moving together.

But that's all guesswork. I don't really know shit. :D
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by madd0ct0r »

Surlethe wrote: ... Austerity hasn't crippled demand, since the BOE has been keeping demand on a reasonable track, but the real economy is going nowhere fast despite high inflation.
evidence?

as for certain pent up demand - it's not just a matter of people wanting stuff they can't afford, it's the stuff they want CANNOT be provided at at a price the can pay AND make profit with the economy the way it is. Material costs would have to drop (hard for a gloabalized island) or wages would have to plummet ( this might affect what people can afford too)

Well, that's what loans are for, but what with the whole austerity thing and deeply uncertain job markets, who the hell takes out a long term loan?
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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Evidence? I was repeating some of the points in your link. Demand is w,eak and flat, by implication not collapsing. The real economy is flat. Inflation is (moderately) high -- above the BOE's target -- but falling.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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Surlethe wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Alternatively, demand did collapse, past tense, and is only very slowly recovering because the current policies don't allow a fast recovery, because they prevent any broad rises in the fortunes of the average Briton?
Isn't that what I said?
Eh, very possibly. The difference in emphasis seems significant to me, but that may just be because I was all cranky-like when I first read it.

Policywise, there's a difference between saying "right now, Tory policies aren't causing demand to plummet" and saying "when first enacted two years ago, Tory politics triggered a drop in demand by (2? 4? whatever) percent, which has since stabilized but still managed to thwack us with a second dip of recession."
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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Demand is the same as nominal income. Did Tory policies cause nominal income to fall in 2010?
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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Blayne wrote:What makes recessions so bad isn't the sluggish growth its the drop of GDP with respect to your debt, debt isn't a problem its having your economy not able to outgrow your debt is where things get ugly. Because each round of austerity hurts the economy the debt problem gets worse so they cut more and so on and so forth.
You could say that's a bit of a problem...

Image

Clearly, we must borrow enough money to make GDP grow faster than debt.

Or alternatively, we could liquidate debts faster than the decline in GDP, see depression of 1920-1922.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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Is that GDP real or nominal? There seems to be a very interesting one-quarter lag between GDP change and debt change, suggesting that GDP change drives debt change.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by Simon_Jester »

[stares at graph]

I'm not seeing it, especially since the time axis has a resolution of considerably more than one quarter. What are you seeing that I'm missing?

[scratches head]
Surlethe wrote:Demand is the same as nominal income. Did Tory policies cause nominal income to fall in 2010?
Austerity- reducing debt financing of the government- knocks down nominal income a bit, because the state isn't borrowing (as much) money to pay construction workers or teachers or or contractors or homeless welfare recipients, so they have less income. What else is in play, I'm not going to try to judge at the moment; we've got enough energetic Britons here that I'd be just as happy to leave that to them.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by Surlethe »

Right, but a fall in demand causes, all else equal, nominal incomes to fall via a decrease in prices and in production. They haven't. Therefore either the supply side is contracting even more quickly or demand actually isn't falling. It's probably the latter since the BOE has been conducting continuous monetary stimulus, which pushes demand up.

I'm probably just seeing patterns in noise on the graph.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by madd0ct0r »

the evidence i was after was your statement that the BOE has been keeping demand up via constant fiscal stimulus. I thought they'd stopped.

There's also external demand, which might well be a bit spongy due to the eurozone crisis.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

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The BOE doesn't do fiscal stimulus, they do monetary stimulus.
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by madd0ct0r »

ok. well. monetary stimulus. are they still doing it?
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Re: Krugman on newsnight

Post by Dartzap »

They rejected doing another round of QE today.
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