Firefighters making too much money?

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Rahvin
Jedi Knight
Posts: 615
Joined: 2005-07-06 12:51pm

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by Rahvin »

General Zod wrote:
Rahvin wrote: What are the overtime laws like in NY? Could the fact that CA overtime laws allow for double time pay after 12 hours (a significant factor in a 72-hour shift) be what's causing the difference?
You don't get overtime pay in a salaried position. I can pretty much guarantee it's a non-factor here.
Not entirely true. Some salaried positions do get overtime. That apparently includes California firefighters, as according to this article, overtime costs make up an average of 26%of a firefighter's paycheck in Orange County (and they also give a salary comparison to Sheriff's Deputies, which is handy):
Overtime costs at the Orange County Fire Authority hit $27.9 million last year, a 55 percent increase since 2003, an Orange County Register analysis of payroll records has found.

Most of the overtime - 86 percent - is spent to keep fire stations open on a 24 hour basis - not for major disasters like the Santiago and Freeway Complex fires.

Interviews and records show that a key factor behind the growth of overtime is the enhancement of pension benefits granted to firefighters in 2001. The pension benefits have boosted the cost of each firefighter dramatically, simultaneously discouraging the agency from new hires and encouraging more early retirements.

The result is more vacancies and larger overtime bills to cover empty shifts. Last year, the 61 vacant positions contributed to more than 30 percent of overtime payouts.

Meanwhile, the overtime has helped to transform firefighting from a blue-collar job to a high-paying profession. Last year the Fire Authority's 814 firefighters, engineers and captains earned a median annual pay of $137,784. Overtime made up $36,488 of that. (Median is the number in the middle - half the firefighters made more and half made less.)

That compares to $111,082 for a senior deputy at the Orange County Sheriff's Department.


The Register analysis also found that:

•Overtime now makes up more than 26 percent of firefighter paychecks and more than 12 percent of the Fire Authority's budget. Overtime pay has increased at twice the rate of base pay.

Overtime costs have been boosted by a series of annual pay raises. From 2003 to 2006, OCFA granted 4 percent raises each year. In 2007 and 2008, the raises were 3 percent. During that period, the agency added just 49 firefighters, a 6 percent increase. But its payroll swelled by 35 percent.

Because of the high cost of funding pensions, the Fire Authority has restricted new hires: Only 40 new firefighters were hired in 2008. Today a quarter of the firefighters, engineers and captains who remain have been on the job for more than 20 years.

Fire Authority administrators and union officials say the overtime is necessary to fully staff fire stations around the clock - a practice referred to as constant staffing - standard in most large fire departments.

"It really gets down to, we either have the overtime to cover time off, or we shut the engine down," said Fire Chief Chip Prather.

Most fire departments across the country have similarly large overtime bills. Orange County pays proportionally more fire overtime than some nearby jurisdictions - although the city of Los Angeles is higher still.

The city of San Diego spent 12 percent of its salary costs on overtime in fiscal 2007-2008, compared to the 26 percent spent at OCFA. Los Angeles County spent 21 percent of its salary and benefits budget on overtime.

The city of Los Angeles spends far more - in part because it staffs each fire engine with four firefighters - compared to three per engine for Orange County and most of Los Angeles County.

The Register asked for overtime spending numbers from the city of Los Angeles but officials said a response would be delayed because of numerous inquiries on this topic. The Los Angeles Daily News reported last week that the Los Angeles Fire Department spent nearly 25 percent of its total budget on overtime last year.

"We should appreciate the fact they're willing to put in the extra hours to keep fire engines in service in their community," said Joe Kerr, union president for the Orange County Professional Firefighters. "I don't think that people realize how many hours firefighters put in."

Kerr said the pay reflects the work and training demands placed on firefighters. "The amount of training rivals that of an attorney or doctor over the course of their career," he said.

It's more accurate in today's world to call it a "gray collar job," Kerr said.

LARGER PENSIONS EQUAL FEWER FIREFIGHTERS

In 2001, Fire Authority board members enhanced retirement benefits to allow sworn staff to retire at age 50, with an annual pension that can mirror final salary. Overtime is not included in pension calculations, officials said.

But the expanded benefit - along with steep investment losses within the county's pension plan - has caused annual payments to the retirement system by OCFA to rise from $42 million in fiscal 2006-2007 to more than $52 million in the current fiscal year.

Even with that increased payment, OCFA still faces a $185 million gap between what it pays into the pension system and what actuaries say the full cost will be.

Today, funding a fire captain's retirement costs the county $54,449 each year, officials say. An engineer's future retirement costs the county $46,765 a year and a firefighter $40,295.

Because of the soaring cost of pensions, county fire officials, like many across the country, have avoided new hires, instead depending on overtime to cover shifts and keep balanced budgets.


And as older workers take advantage of the benefit and retire, they add to the vacant slots that in turn fuel more overtime.

Fire Authority officials say overtime is significantly cheaper than hiring new workers with full pension benefits - and other major fire departments agree.

Compared to a standard five-day, 40-hour workweek, firefighters work staggered 24-hour schedules - and are paid whether responding to emergencies or waiting at the station.

For example, in a month, a firefighter might work two 24-hour days the first week, three the next, two after that and three the final week.


For the month, that would be 10 days on and 20 days off.

Lori Zeller, assistant chief for business services, calculates that to fill in a shift for a firefighter, the Fire Authority pays $47.93 per hour to cover pay and benefits. That same shift filled through overtime (which includes only base and overtime pay) totals $38.41 per hour. The biggest factor in that calculation is the $18.32 paid on an hourly basis for pension benefits.

Thus, it's cheaper by $9.52 per hour, or about 25 percent, to fill a shift on overtime rather than through a new hire, Zeller said.


Firefighters point out that some overtime shifts are mandatory because of staff shortages.

"I was forced (to work) for 370 hours of backfill (overtime) last year," said Robert James, 42, who works as an engineer-paramedic and has been at the agency since 1994.

James worked a lot of overtime last year because of a shortage of engineers. He earned more than $75,000 in overtime, which put him in the top 20 earners and helped propel his annual pay to $194,657.

While firefighters welcome the supplemental income, James said, so much overtime does take a toll.

"Being forced (to work) that many hours definitely affects your family," said James, who is married with three daughters. "Friends and neighbors realize it because they try to get hold of me. They tell me, 'You're never home.' "

But James added, "Someone has to be there every day to save lives, property and respond to all the different emergencies."

County Supervisor Bill Campbell, who sits on the OCFA board, has expressed concern at the current cost of overtime.

"It seems too high to me," Campbell said. "I think highlighting this will get management's attention. Then we have to see what we can do."

Fremont Fire Chief Bruce Martin, who recently wrote a column for Fire Chief Magazine on the overtime debate, said the constant staffing model doesn't leave much wiggle room.

To avoid overtime, Martin said, agencies would have to hire more staff, meaning that on some days a station would have extra firefighters.

"I can make a dent in overtime but you're going to have to pay for extra firefighters," Martin said.

Constant staffing works firefighters hard and leaves little time for training, community outreach or other non-emergency functions, Martin said. And not hiring new workers creates challenges for the future as firefighters get older and they aren't replaced by younger hires.

That is already becoming a challenge at the county Fire Authority, where one-fourth of the firefighters, engineers and captains have been on the job for more than 20 years.

Kerr, the firefighter union leader, said paying out overtime isn't exactly a strategy for the future.

Kerr added that he expects OCFA to eventually craft a new - and cheaper - retirement benefit for new hires, which would allow more staff and lower overtime payouts.

"It's one of the things we recognize is going to be on the table," Kerr said.

WHO'S EARNING THE OVERTIME?

Last year, after an Orange County Register investigation into the Sheriff's Department, county supervisors launched a performance audit that found widespread flaws in the management of sheriff's employees overtime.

The Fire Authority says it manages overtime opportunities through computer scheduling software that helps them to spread the shifts equitably and still allow for effective coverage of training, sick days and vacation.

Unlike the Sheriff's Department, where lower-ranking deputies earn most of the overtime, captains - including those in administrative slots - are the big earners at the Fire Authority. Other high-ranking officials, such as battalion chiefs, also get overtime.

In 2008, captains earned on average more than $43,000 in overtime, compared to an average of $25,000 earned by firefighters. Engineers averaged $42,000 in overtime.

In 2008, four captains and four engineers were able to boost their salaries over $200,000 through overtime.

OCFA's top overtime earner over the past six years has been Fire Captain Robert Hutnyan, who does training for the agency and has earned more than $662,626 in overtime since 2003.

Last year, Hutnyan earned $107,821 in overtime. Hutnyan declined to be interviewed by The Register.

Kerr, the union president, earned more than $40,000 in overtime during 2008 despite the fact that he's on a union leave. Kerr said his leave allows him to focus on lobbying on behalf of OCFA, but he still puts in for overtime shifts.

OCFA pays 70 percent of Kerr's salary and the union pays 30 percent. At the Sheriff's Department, the union covers 100 percent of their labor leader's pay.

Fire officials say the union boss is a good deal for taxpayers because Kerr has been helpful in securing legislation from Sacramento and helped negotiate a solution to the agency's $66 million unfunded liability for retiree medical benefits.

But Campbell says those kinds of work schedules - people earning overtime when they haven't already worked a 40-hour week - make him uncomfortable.

"That's not what the federal requirement is, but it's what we've allowed," Campbell said. "We've got to correct that and we have to address that when we next reopen the (bargaining) agreements."
I bolded some interesting and relevant sections. It looks like I was right - benefits make paying firefighters overtime to fill shifts cheaper than new hires and cutting down on overtime. Their normal salaries aren't all that far from cops in the same county, but they get so much overtime that it propels them significantly higher in reality.
"You were doing OK until you started to think."
-ICANT, creationist from evcforum.net
darkjedi521
Youngling
Posts: 108
Joined: 2006-10-13 03:14pm
Location: Troy, NY

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by darkjedi521 »

Many of my male relatives are fire fighters in CT. At least the department in my home town uses a slightly saner rotating shift schedule (3 day shifts, 3 days off, 3 night shifts, 3 days off). Based on published data in the newspapers, making $100K+/year puts you in the top 20 non-education city employees for my hometown, and as a general rule cops and firefighter only appear on that list if there have been a lot of bad fires/coastal storms or someone retires after many years and a high rank. New Haven Register. I'm going to weigh in that $140K/year average pay seems a bit excessive, even for southern CA when compared to the greater NYC area.
Ex ASVS lurker and sometimes poster
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by eion »

General Zod wrote:I can't say they deal with burning buildings, but they have to go into buildings with who knows what kind of psychopath pointing a weapon at them. I'd say that's just as hazardous as anything firefighters do.
A psychopath pointing a weapon at you, while incredibly dangerous, is different from the building itself trying to kill you, and you can't see more than a foot in front of you, and you can't hear, and the walls are pealing and it's so hot you can feel it through your suit, and this kid you're trying to rescue is scared of you because you look like Darth Vader, and you've been up for 24 hours and this is your third call.
Firefighters do a job few are able, or willing, to do. We need more firefighters, and good pay is one way to attract them. That and all the tail they get.

If he thinks firefighters are overpaid he can go form his own private firehouse and prove the private sector can do a better job than government. Some things aren't supposed to make money.
Or they could hire more firefighters and assign reasonable shifts. If you don't think the firefighters in the article's location are overpaid, look at the salary figures for NYC firefighters. The only person making more than $100k is the Batallion Chief.
Yeah that's base pay. It's absolutely worthless as a comparison because He's quoting total compensation, which for all I know could include value of health-insurance, vacation, and other non-salary incentives. If these guys were making 100k in base salary I might have an issue. Though Socal has one threat I don't often hear about in the NYC area, brushfires.
Last edited by eion on 2010-04-20 03:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rahvin
Jedi Knight
Posts: 615
Joined: 2005-07-06 12:51pm

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by Rahvin »

I'm going to weigh in that $140K/year average pay seems a bit excessive, even for southern CA when compared to the greater NYC area.
Bear in mind that overtime laws can vary from state to state, and income levels are different from one area to the next as well.

Read the article I posted. They're not going with more "sane" shifts because the benefits pay actually makes new hires cost more for the County in the end than simply paying existing firefighters overtime to cover the shifts.

All things being equal, I'd say "sure, 140k is a lot, maybe that's a bit much," but we're talking about a situation where toning down the overtime would actually cost the County more in the end, and where their median salary before overtime is roughly 10k lower than a senior deputy for the police in the same county. That makes their beginning salary sound reasonable, and the justification for the overtime is reasonable as well.
"You were doing OK until you started to think."
-ICANT, creationist from evcforum.net
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by General Zod »

eion wrote:A psychopath pointing a weapon at you, while incredibly dangerous, is different from the building itself trying to kill you, and you can't see more than a foot in front of you, and you can't hear, and the walls are pealing and it's so hot you can feel it through your suit, and this kid you're trying to rescue is scared of you because you look like Darth Vader, and you've been up for 24 hours and this is your third call.
So what? That doesn't mean they're not comparably dangerous. Or do you really want to bother listing all the different hypotheticals each job can face?
Yeah that's base pay. It's absolutely worthless as a comparison because He's quoting total compensation, which for all I know could include value of health-insurance, vacation, and other non-salary incentives. If these guys were making 100k in base salary I might have an issue. Though Socal has one threat I don't often hear about in the NYC area, brushfires.
Err, read it again. He said it was average compensation, which could mean either base pay or total compensation, and this isn't exactly a financial expert we're talking about. In my experience though, total compensation is generally not significantly higher than someone's base pay except in cases of things like executive salaries or jobs with commissions.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Rahvin
Jedi Knight
Posts: 615
Joined: 2005-07-06 12:51pm

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by Rahvin »

General Zod wrote:Err, read it again. He said it was average compensation, which could mean either base pay or total compensation, and this isn't exactly a financial expert we're talking about. In my experience though, total compensation is generally not significantly higher than someone's base pay except in cases of things like executive salaries or jobs with commissions.
Or, perhaps, jobs where 26% of your compensation is overtime pay? Like firefighters in Orange County?
"You were doing OK until you started to think."
-ICANT, creationist from evcforum.net
User avatar
Liberty
Jedi Knight
Posts: 979
Joined: 2009-08-15 10:33pm

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by Liberty »

This may be a silly question, but - why do firefighters work 2-3 days straight, rather than normal hours, and in shifts? Seems to me it'd be better to have fresh firefighters who work eight hour shifts rather than worn out firefighters working two straight days.
Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. - Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
jcow79
Padawan Learner
Posts: 442
Joined: 2004-07-21 02:39am
Location: Spokane, WA

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by jcow79 »

Any chance some of these guys are doing wildfires as well? Perhaps their city is paying them but recouping the money from the state and that figure just isn't being shown. I'm trying to figure out the guy that got paid over 350k and the couple that made over 200k. Even if he was in a higher position salary wise, that with his pension and health benefits shouldn't account for THAT much more, should it? Do firefighters get paid any kind of hazard pay while actually ON a fire? If so that might also lend plausibility to wildfire duty being a considerable compensation jump.
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by eion »

General Zod wrote:So what? That doesn't mean they're not comparably dangerous. Or do you really want to bother listing all the different hypotheticals each job can face?
Yeah, I think most firefighters would call that a typical day, not an extreme one.
Yeah that's base pay. It's absolutely worthless as a comparison because He's quoting total compensation, which for all I know could include value of health-insurance, vacation, and other non-salary incentives. If these guys were making 100k in base salary I might have an issue. Though Socal has one threat I don't often hear about in the NYC area, brushfires.
Err, read it again. He said it was average compensation, which could mean either base pay or total compensation, and this isn't exactly a financial expert we're talking about. In my experience though, total compensation is generally not significantly higher than someone's base pay except in cases of things like executive salaries or jobs with commissions.
From the City of Napa website (for a nearby city comparison), in addition to base salary paid benefits include:

Compensation and Benefits

The very competitive benefits package includes:

•PERS Retirement System (9% employee paid portion is tax deferred pursuant to IRS 414(h) (2)). PERS retirement is 3% at 50.
•Medical– Employee contribution of 2.5% of salary - full family coverage.
•Dental —City pay
•Vacation- based on years of service is accrued from 86-206 hours (40-hr) or 120-288 (56-hr) per year.
•Holidays-Holiday pay for average of 13 days
•Sick Leave-96 hours (40-hr) or 134 hours (56-hr) per year
•Certificate Pay– $25.00—$75.00 per certificate (Stackable)
•Educational Incentive-$55.00-$142.00
•Uniform Allowance-$555.90 year
•Deferred Compensation Plan

Speciality Assignments Include:

•Apparatus Specialist (3% of Top Step base Firefighter salary)
•Shift Fire Inspector (3% of Top Step base Firefighter salary)
•Hazardous Material Team (4% of Top Step base Firefighter salary)
•Bilingual Pay (2% of Top Step base Firefighter salary)

A petty man could easily add all that up to prove his petty point.
Rahvin
Jedi Knight
Posts: 615
Joined: 2005-07-06 12:51pm

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by Rahvin »

Liberty wrote:This may be a silly question, but - why do firefighters work 2-3 days straight, rather than normal hours, and in shifts? Seems to me it'd be better to have fresh firefighters who work eight hour shifts rather than worn out firefighters working two straight days.
Biggest reason? Their on-call status.

Firefighters are required to stay withing a very close range of the fire station at all times when on shift, but they aren't receiving calls for the vast majority of the time - that's why they have beds in teh station, because they can sleep during their shift so long as they're ready to go as soon as a call comes.

But when a job restrains an employees freedom to such a significant degree, you have to pay them for every hour that their ability to, say, go out to dinner or a movie, or even go home is restricted, even if they are not actively performing work. So they typically aren't "working" for two days straight - you just have to pay them for that much time worked because you told them they had to stay on the premises for two days.

It's easier and cheaper to staff a 24-hour service like a fire station with fewer employees on 2-3 day shifts than it is to hire more firefighters to work shorter shifts because of the benefits they receive per employee, even after all the overtime.
"You were doing OK until you started to think."
-ICANT, creationist from evcforum.net
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by General Zod »

eion wrote:Yeah, I think most firefighters would call that a typical day, not an extreme one.
Then pick any other similarly hazardous job if you really want to be pedantic about it. Better yet, take a look at this. A list of the 15 most dangerous jobs in America by fatalities, and Firefighters rank in at 13th.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
Liberty
Jedi Knight
Posts: 979
Joined: 2009-08-15 10:33pm

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by Liberty »

Rahvin wrote:It's easier and cheaper to staff a 24-hour service like a fire station with fewer employees on 2-3 day shifts than it is to hire more firefighters to work shorter shifts because of the benefits they receive per employee, even after all the overtime.
You don't necessarily need more people. If every fireman is currently working 2-3 days per week, straight, then you have to have like three or four shifts of people already. So why not just have them on normal shifts daily instead of working 2-3 days straight?
Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. - Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by eion »

General Zod wrote:
eion wrote:Yeah, I think most firefighters would call that a typical day, not an extreme one.
Then pick any other similarly hazardous job if you really want to be pedantic about it. Better yet, take a look at this. A list of the 15 most dangerous jobs in America by fatalities, and Firefighters rank in at 13th.
I'm not sure Fatalities per 100k is the proper way to compare the jobs. Some of those positions work fairly regular shits, some are on duty and in danger longer or at all times. Fatalities per hour worked would probably be a better metric. look at the commen cause of falaties too, most are Falls, Transportation incidents (even the cop), what does it say under firefighter? Most common cause of death: Fires and explosions. Not all deaths are created equal.

But I'm willing to concede the "danger" point, but as Rahvin just pointed out, the primary reason for compensation is the restriction of liberties. If I want you to stand at a cash register and work for 8 hours and do what I say during that time I pay you $7.50 an hour and give you an hour unpaid break and two 10 minute breaks. If I want you to spend 2 days on constant alert, sleep outside of your home if I let you sleep, do what I say, and put your life on the line for other people and their property I have to pay you quite a bit more and provide you with more benefits.

A police officer, no matter how dangerous their job, is not required to sleep in the station.

A winery owner understands the intricacies of firefighter compensation about as much as I do. This is another self-informed taxpayer thinking he knows better.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by General Zod »

eion wrote: But I'm willing to concede the "danger" point, but as Rahvin just pointed out, the primary reason for compensation is the restriction of liberties. If I want you to stand at a cash register and work for 8 hours and do what I say during that time I pay you $7.50 an hour and give you an hour unpaid break and two 10 minute breaks. If I want you to spend 2 days on constant alert, sleep outside of your home if I let you sleep, do what I say, and put your life on the line for other people and their property I have to pay you quite a bit more and provide you with more benefits.
That doesn't explain why firefighters in other cities aren't making anywhere close to as what these guys are, though. I can also name a number of jobs with similar restrictions of liberties, like working in a busy hospital's ER on-call.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by eion »

General Zod wrote:
eion wrote: But I'm willing to concede the "danger" point, but as Rahvin just pointed out, the primary reason for compensation is the restriction of liberties. If I want you to stand at a cash register and work for 8 hours and do what I say during that time I pay you $7.50 an hour and give you an hour unpaid break and two 10 minute breaks. If I want you to spend 2 days on constant alert, sleep outside of your home if I let you sleep, do what I say, and put your life on the line for other people and their property I have to pay you quite a bit more and provide you with more benefits.
That doesn't explain why firefighters in other cities aren't making anywhere close to as what these guys are, though. I can also name a number of jobs with similar restrictions of liberties, like working in a busy hospital's ER on-call.
I'm unable to find any base pay information from American Canyon's website, so I'm unwilling to grant that point going on the guy's word.

As to working in an ER, doctors aren't expected to put their lives on the line for their patients, and also: fires and explosions, man. Fires and Explosions.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by General Zod »

eion wrote: As to working in an ER, doctors aren't expected to put their lives on the line for their patients, and also: fires and explosions, man. Fires and Explosions.
The point was that restricting freedoms isn't really enough to justify such a massive pay differential. Especially with regards to the wages of other people doing the same job in other cities. Suppose you had a delivery job that required working in split shifts and other guys in the company had a regular 8 hour schedule. Split shifts means more restricted liberties, but not enough to double or triple your wage compared to the other guys doing the same job.
Last edited by General Zod on 2010-04-20 04:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by eion »

General Zod wrote:
eion wrote: As to working in an ER, doctors aren't expected to put their lives on the line for their patients, and also: fires and explosions, man. Fires and Explosions.
The point was that restricting freedoms isn't really enough to justify such a massive pay differential. Especially with regards to the wages of other people doing the same job in other cities.
Again, I've yet to see any evidence that the base pay of an American Canyon firefighter is an outlier. It's been a busy couple of years for firefighters in California, and it actually costs them more to train a new firefighter than it does to incentivize the old ones to stay.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by General Zod »

eion wrote:
Again, I've yet to see any evidence that the base pay of an American Canyon firefighter is an outlier. It's been a busy couple of years for firefighters in California, and it actually costs them more to train a new firefighter than it does to incentivize the old ones to stay.
http://www.salary.com/salary/index.asp

Type in fire fighter, select a region, then select base salary.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
eion
Jedi Master
Posts: 1303
Joined: 2009-12-03 05:07pm
Location: NoVA

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by eion »

General Zod wrote:
eion wrote:
Again, I've yet to see any evidence that the base pay of an American Canyon firefighter is an outlier. It's been a busy couple of years for firefighters in California, and it actually costs them more to train a new firefighter than it does to incentivize the old ones to stay.
http://www.salary.com/salary/index.asp

Type in fire fighter, select a region, then select base salary.
For zip code 94503 (American Canyon) it gives me $33,773 to $56,288
For zip code 10464 (The Bronx) it gives me $36,057 to $60,095
For zip code 20121 (my zip code, a city of about 50,000) it gives me $32,973 to $54,954

Median income for American Canyon males is $42,358.

I'm not really getting outraged here.
User avatar
Isil`Zha
Jedi Knight
Posts: 768
Joined: 2002-07-07 02:50pm
Location: Orbital Frame Naked Jehuty

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by Isil`Zha »

My uncle's a fire chief in San Bernadino - he works a hell of a lot more than 2 days a week.

I too, was looking for actual numbers from the guy, instead of unsupported accusations.
Though we are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,--
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
User avatar
Isolder74
Official SD.Net Ace of Cakes
Posts: 6762
Joined: 2002-07-10 01:16am
Location: Weber State of Construction University
Contact:

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by Isolder74 »

Which he really hasn't given us. the best he's done is put up the average salary of firefighters that he's citing. So this includes the top of the scale skewing the numbers. It would be like taking the average salary at Microsoft and not taking into account the much higher salary of the CEO. The more i read his argument, the more I see a crybaby whining.

My friend also works more then 2 days a weeks but I think we were trying to simplify our math. He works 3 days and part of that overlaps with the next shift so that there is no time that someone isn't on shift.
Hapan Battle Dragons Rule!
When you want peace prepare for war! --Confusious
That was disapointing ..Should we show this Federation how to build a ship so we may have worthy foes? Typhonis 1
The Prince of The Writer's Guild|HAB Spacewolf Tank General| God Bless America!
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by General Zod »

Isolder74 wrote:Which he really hasn't given us. the best he's done is put up the average salary of firefighters that he's citing. So this includes the top of the scale skewing the numbers. It would be like taking the average salary at Microsoft and not taking into account the much higher salary of the CEO.
I'm just nitpicking at this point, but most salary figures aren't going to be averaged out by company. Usually they're averaged out by job titles and descriptions, so simply averaging the salaries for just firefighters isn't that bad of a way to do it, though I don't doubt his figures aren't exactly accurate. Suppose for example, you want the average salary ranges for entry-level accountants in a given region. You're not going to include an Executive's salary, and you're probably not going to include the salaries of accountants who manage other accountants. But within the same paygrade you'll get a fair bit of fluctation depending on any number of factors like bonuses, levels of education, etc. At least that's how a lot of HR people do things, at any rate.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
ShadowDragon8685
Village Idiot
Posts: 1183
Joined: 2010-02-17 12:44pm

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

This guy's an idiot, pure and simple.

Do firefighters have it good? Yeah, sure. The inside of some firehalls are easily comparable to an upper-middle-class household. You may be sleeping in a barracks room with four or five other guys (at maximum), but they're big, comfy beds, they tend to have pool tables, big-screen TVs, arcade machines, and shit like that.

Although my friend who showed me this is no longer a fire-fighter, having ascertained somehow that driving tow-trucks was more lucrative for him... Think about what that says, since he had a non-volunteer job...

Regardless, though, he showed me their manuals, all their gear and shit (and it's a hell of a fucking lot more complicated than anyone who's not on the inside will ever understand, I garuntee,) and after listening to him go on about the kind of crazy shit you get marching into a situation that any sane man would run from...

Frankly, they're worth whatever the hell you can pay them. I certainly wouldn't begrudge them their high salaries, given the danger they go into on a routine basis and the fact that for up to three days straight they might be away from their own homes and families.


But perhaps Mr. Vintner thinks that he could do better.

I propose an experiment: Mr. Vintner's taxes, the proportion of them that would otherwise be funding the fire hall, is returned to him, and no fire calls from his vinyard will be responded to except inasmuch as is nessessary to ensure the fire does not reach neighboring areas. He may then use his tax money to hire a nice, free-market, lowest-bidder fire service to guard his vinyard from harm.

Then we firebomb his goddamned grape fields and see how he cares for the results.


On some things you should not go with the lowest bidder. You don't want "minimum" coverage on those things. Health and safety are two of those biggies, and anyone who complains about the salary a firefighter gets should be press-ganged into the fire service and see how much he feels it's worth after a few weeks of it. (Same for anyone who complains about the money police, medical personel, or soldiers recieve.)
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Dude...

Way to overwork a metaphor Shadow. I feel really creeped out now.
I am an artist, metaphorical mind-fucks are my medium.
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29205
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by General Zod »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote: Then we firebomb his goddamned grape fields and see how he cares for the results.
I realize you're a dipshit, but is this sort of infantile chest beating really necessary?
On some things you should not go with the lowest bidder. You don't want "minimum" coverage on those things. Health and safety are two of those biggies, and anyone who complains about the salary a firefighter gets should be press-ganged into the fire service and see how much he feels it's worth after a few weeks of it. (Same for anyone who complains about the money police, medical personel, or soldiers recieve.)
I'm going to wager you didn't actually do more than read a few snippets of the OP and barge in for a cheap tough-guy +1.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
ArmorPierce
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 5904
Joined: 2002-07-04 09:54pm
Location: Born and raised in Brooklyn, unfornately presently in Jersey

Re: Firefighters making too much money?

Post by ArmorPierce »

California is unique in getting paid overtime past 8 hours. I don't think any other state does that, it has to be over 40 hours a week period. Salaried positions don't require (but some companies will give, depends on the company) overtime pay rates but fire fighters are required over time as far as I know.
Brotherhood of the Monkey @( !.! )@
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift. ~Steve Prefontaine
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe.
Post Reply