Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic »

loomer wrote: 2020-05-28 11:14pm It's not a cheap attempt at a gotcha, as you'd understand if you'd spent literally any time studying the way political violence works rather than all that time spent on stretches to fit your own head so deeply up your ass. You might also have noticed that what you're invoking as an attempt at a 'gotcha' - that I've allegedly attempted to say that you must support 'initiating violence for political purposes' when all you want to do is 'defend yourself' - doesn't actually work.

When you establish an armed wing of a political party, you are explicitly preparing for political violence. Political violence in self-defence is still political violence and still a vote of no-confidence in the existing organs of state power and law enforcement apparatus. Establishing a paramilitary wing is in itself an act of political violence by signifying the willingness and capacity to employ violence on your political enemies.

No amount of handwringing 'oh but political violence is bad, we're not going to shoot random republicans, we're just going to defend ourselves' can change this.
I am aware that when you encourage people to prepare for the possibility of conflict, there is a risk of escalation, and that some people will take it as an invitation to start a conflict, even if the intent is defensive. Why do you think I held off on endorsing such actions for so long? For that matter, why do you think I am arguing for the Democratic Party to hire trained, professional security to safeguard its candidates and venues, rather than relying on a citizens' militia?

I've simply reached the point where I feel the situation is so bad that the risks of escalation are outweighed by the risks of not being prepared.

Yes, some people will probably cross the line and initiate violence. I have no illusions on that score. That does not mean that I am obligated to condone such actions. Your position seems rather all or nothing: either I must oppose all violence and all preparation for the possibility of violence, or I must support all forms of violence no matter how extreme.

Let me spell it out real simply for you: I support the right to self-defense. I do not support murdering people (note that "shooting random Republicans", even in a state of war, would constitute a war crime).

Also, it makes me fucking sick that any and every topic I post on is instantly derailed by people rushing to "call me out", mock me, try to trap me in inconsistencies even if they have to put words in my mouth, and even abuse me based on an entirely fictitious version of my "pampered" life that this board has concocted (somehow this board got the idea that I'm a rich dilletant when in fact I work a minimum wage retail job and only escaped living on the street because I was able to live with family- I guess ridiculing me as a spoiled rich kid is too effective an ad hominem to let mere facts get in the way). And then when I defend myself against the torrent of libel and abuse that consumes every other thread I post in, I'm the one seen as a troll who's derailing the thread.

I'm going to be blunt: A group of about a dozen posters on this board has waged a systematic campaign of ridicule, bullying, poisoning the well, and gas lighting against me for the last five years, and every fucking one of them should be banned.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-05-28 11:51pm
loomer wrote: 2020-05-28 11:14pm It's not a cheap attempt at a gotcha, as you'd understand if you'd spent literally any time studying the way political violence works rather than all that time spent on stretches to fit your own head so deeply up your ass. You might also have noticed that what you're invoking as an attempt at a 'gotcha' - that I've allegedly attempted to say that you must support 'initiating violence for political purposes' when all you want to do is 'defend yourself' - doesn't actually work.

When you establish an armed wing of a political party, you are explicitly preparing for political violence. Political violence in self-defence is still political violence and still a vote of no-confidence in the existing organs of state power and law enforcement apparatus. Establishing a paramilitary wing is in itself an act of political violence by signifying the willingness and capacity to employ violence on your political enemies.

No amount of handwringing 'oh but political violence is bad, we're not going to shoot random republicans, we're just going to defend ourselves' can change this.
I am aware that when you encourage people to prepare for the possibility of conflict, there is a risk of escalation, and that some people will take it as an invitation to start a conflict, even if the intent is defensive. Why do you think I held off on endorsing such actions for so long? For that matter, why do you think I am arguing for the Democratic Party to hire trained, professional security to safeguard its candidates and venues, rather than relying on a citizens' militia?
Are you? Because you said 'begin building its own armed, private security force' which is rather different from hiring in disinterested professionals.
I've simply reached the point where I feel the situation is so bad that the risks of escalation are outweighed by the risks of not being prepared.

Yes, some people will probably cross the line and initiate violence. I have no illusions on that score. That does not mean that I am obligated to condone such actions. Your position seems rather all or nothing: either I must oppose all violence and all preparation for the possibility of violence, or I must support all forms of violence no matter how extreme.
Listen, fuckhead: That's not my position, and I challenge you to show me where I've said anything to that effect rather than expressing skepticism about trusting the Democratic party with political paramilitaries while simultaneously preening about how you condemn political violence.
Let me spell it out real simply for you: I support the right to self-defense. I do not support murdering people (note that "shooting random Republicans even in a state of war would constitute a war crime).
Cool. You can show me where I said otherwise, right?
Also, it makes me fucking sick that any and every topic I post on is instantly derailed by people rushing to "call me out", mock me, try to trap me in inconsistencies even if they have to put words in my mouth, and even abuse me based on an entirely fictitious version of my "pampered" life that this board has concocted (somehow this board got the idea that I'm a rich dilletant when in fact I work a minimum wage retail job and only escaped living on the street because I was able to live with family- I guess ridiculing me as a spoiled rich kid is too effective an ad hominem to let mere facts get in the way). And then when I defend myself against the torrent of libel that consumes every other thread I post in, I'm the one seen as a troll who's derailing the thread.

I'm going to be blunt: A group of about a dozen posters on this board has waged a systematic campaign of ridicule, bullying, poisoning the well, and gas lighting against me for the last five years, and every fucking one of them should be banned.
Oh, shut the fuck up with your whinging. You want me banned, report me rather than getting on your little soapbox. If being skeptical of your idealistic plans for a perfectly defensive political paramilitary is 'derailing' (I mean, shit: you brought it up. You are the one who introduced this idea that the Democratic Party must have a paramilitary wing. The subsequent discussion of it is because of that) then report it.

Like, seriously. Who the fuck called you a rich dilettante here? Who the fuck called you a spoiled rich kid? Who 'libeled' you in this thread (can you even explain what libel means?) Who put words in your mouth?

You've got this bizarre idea that when you post, people shouldn't express an opinion on it, and if they do, it's bullying. But that's not actually how anything works. You put your ideas out into a public forum for discussion, and people engage with them. Sometimes they engage with skepticism or rightful mockery if the ideas are bad or inconsistent with the rest of what you've posted. That's how it works. Your 'b-b-but the conspiracy against me!' bullshit is extremely tiresome and the sympathy I had for you has completely evaporated with your constant 'boo hoo poor me' rants and rambles that usually follow from actively derailing something like, gee, I don't know - a thread about the riots in Minneapolis - by posting something like, gee, I dunno - an active call for everyone to arm themselves in preparation for a civil war and for the party to establish an armed paramilitary wing.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic »

loomer wrote: 2020-05-29 12:01amAre you? Because you said 'begin building its own armed, private security force' which is rather different from hiring in disinterested professionals.
I believe the Democratic Party needs its own armed security, but I would prefer that they hire trained, vetted professionals. Of course I don't want them to grab every random person with an itchy trigger finger off the street and shove an assault rifle in their hands.

I think that some level of training and screening is implied in my position, but if it wasn't, I'm happy to clarify the point.
Listen, fuckhead: That's not my position, and I challenge you to show me where I've said anything to that effect rather than expressing skepticism about trusting the Democratic party with political paramilitaries while simultaneously preening about how you condemn political violence.
I'm not "preening"- I'm expressing an opinion. The goal is not to make myself look good, or even to claim moral superiority over anyone, but to express my genuinely held beliefs.
Cool. You can show me where I said otherwise, right?
Then I'm not sure what we're arguing about?
Oh, shut the fuck up with your whinging. You want me banned, report me rather than getting on your little soapbox. If being skeptical of your idealistic plans for a perfectly defensive political paramilitary is 'derailing' (I mean, shit: you brought it up. You are the one who introduced this idea that the Democratic Party must have a paramilitary wing. The subsequent discussion of it is because of that) then report it.

Like, seriously. Who the fuck called you a rich dilettante here? Who the fuck called you a spoiled rich kid? Who 'libeled' you in this thread (can you even explain what libel means?) Who put words in your mouth?
That was a jab at Highlord, who called me "pampered" in his last little diatribe, evoking a caricature of me as a spoiled rich kid which has occassionally been floated on this board. Sorry if that wasn't clear, but it wasn't directed at you.
You've got this bizarre idea that when you post, people shouldn't express an opinion on it, and if they do, it's bullying. But that's not actually how anything works. You put your ideas out into a public forum for discussion, and people engage with them. Sometimes they engage with skepticism or rightful mockery if the ideas are bad or inconsistent with the rest of what you've posted. That's how it works. Your 'b-b-but the conspiracy against me!' bullshit is extremely tiresome and the sympathy I had for you has completely evaporated with your constant 'boo hoo poor me' rants and rambles that usually follow from actively derailing something like, gee, I don't know - a thread about the riots in Minneapolis - by posting something like, gee, I dunno - an active call for everyone to arm themselves in preparation for a civil war and for the party to establish an armed paramilitary wing.
People can engage with my ideas without subjecting me to constant tracts of personal insults, making assumptions about my life or my motivations, etc. Theoretically, at least. And I'm not sure I would call a discussion of the limits of preparing for the possibility of widespread political violence a derail of a thread about widespread political violence. Its also pretty rich to whinge about me derailing the thread while you and others are once again refocussing the conversation on "calling out TRR".

Oh by the way: this right here, ridiculing my claim that I am a target of frequent bullying and implying its something I made up or imagined- that's what I was talking about when I mentioned gaslighting.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-05-29 12:12am
loomer wrote: 2020-05-29 12:01amAre you? Because you said 'begin building its own armed, private security force' which is rather different from hiring in disinterested professionals.
I believe the Democratic Party needs its own armed security, but I would prefer that they hire trained, vetted professionals. Of course I don't want them to grab every random person with an itchy trigger finger off the street and shove an assault rifle in their hands.

I think that some level of training and screening is implied in my position, but if it wasn't, I'm happy to clarify the point.
Now, see, there's still a difference between what it seems like you're advocating and just hiring professionals. So let's be 100% clear:

Are you only saying that the Democratic Party should contract an ordinary private security firm specializing in close personal protection details for its candidates, or are you saying that the Democratic Party should organize and train an organization funded by and employed only by the Democratic Party?
Listen, fuckhead: That's not my position, and I challenge you to show me where I've said anything to that effect rather than expressing skepticism about trusting the Democratic party with political paramilitaries while simultaneously preening about how you condemn political violence.
I'm not "preening"- I'm expressing an opinion. The goal is not to make myself look good, or even to claim moral superiority over anyone, but to express my genuinely held beliefs.
You're preening.
Cool. You can show me where I said otherwise, right?
Then I'm not sure what we're arguing about?
I dunno, maybe the part where you've decided to declare that the Democratic Party must develop a paramilitary wing while not realizing that this is, in and of itself, an act of political violence? You realize there's more in the range of political violence than 'self-defence' and 'killing random members of the other side', right?
Oh, shut the fuck up with your whinging. You want me banned, report me rather than getting on your little soapbox. If being skeptical of your idealistic plans for a perfectly defensive political paramilitary is 'derailing' (I mean, shit: you brought it up. You are the one who introduced this idea that the Democratic Party must have a paramilitary wing. The subsequent discussion of it is because of that) then report it.

Like, seriously. Who the fuck called you a rich dilettante here? Who the fuck called you a spoiled rich kid? Who 'libeled' you in this thread (can you even explain what libel means?) Who put words in your mouth?
That was a jab at Highlord, who called me "pampered" in his last little diatribe, evoking a caricature of me as a spoiled rich kid which has occassionally been floated on this board. Sorry if that wasn't clear, but it wasn't directed at you.
Then report him rather than getting on your little soapbox if you think it's a bannable offence.
You've got this bizarre idea that when you post, people shouldn't express an opinion on it, and if they do, it's bullying. But that's not actually how anything works. You put your ideas out into a public forum for discussion, and people engage with them. Sometimes they engage with skepticism or rightful mockery if the ideas are bad or inconsistent with the rest of what you've posted. That's how it works. Your 'b-b-but the conspiracy against me!' bullshit is extremely tiresome and the sympathy I had for you has completely evaporated with your constant 'boo hoo poor me' rants and rambles that usually follow from actively derailing something like, gee, I don't know - a thread about the riots in Minneapolis - by posting something like, gee, I dunno - an active call for everyone to arm themselves in preparation for a civil war and for the party to establish an armed paramilitary wing.
People can engage with my ideas without subjecting me to constant tracts of personal insults, making assumptions about my life or my motivations, etc. Theoretically, at least. And I'm not sure I would call a discussion of the limits of preparing for the possibility of widespread political violence a derail of a thread about widespread political violence. Its also pretty rich to whinge about me derailing the thread while you and others are once again refocussing the conversation on "calling out TRR".
I'd call a call for every American to arm themselves for a civil war a different topic from discussing an active, ongoing riot, but hey, what do I know? I only made the thread.

Now, as for the rest? We responded to your post, dickhead. You've decided to characterize this as us 'refocusing the conversation on 'calling out TRR'', when it's actually just how discussions work. You say A, someone says B, someone says C. You have hit a point where you are incapable of seeing people having a disagreement with your positions or finding them inconsistent as anything but some kind of personally motivated attack, and it's extremely tiresome.

On insults, this is SDN. Even in the softer, cuddlier form we've been encouraged to take on, it's kinda what we do. Let it slide or fire back, but don't bitch about it when people are engaging with your actual content and coming to the conclusion that, no, you're an idiot. Disprove them instead.

Also, we don't really need to make assumptions about your motivations. You've made them extremely clear, and we just find them risible since you've waited so late in the game to get on board with what others have been saying for years.
Oh by the way: this right here, ridiculing my claim that I am a target of frequent bullying and implying its something I made up or imagined- that's what I was talking about when I mentioned gaslighting.
You'll forgive me if I only play a sad song for you on my smallest violin for this after you declared that people like me put people like you in the fucking camps, dickhead (remind me why I should have sympathy for the person who said that and declared that my positions count for no more than a fascist's?) As far as I can tell, 95% of the shit you cop is well earned because of your egregiously stupid takes, tendency to blow up in these absurd displays, and constant puffed-chest positioning as the one true democracy defender while shitting on other people by doing things like that.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic »

I won't engage with the continued personal abuse which derails the thread, but to address your actual points:
Now, see, there's still a difference between what it seems like you're advocating and just hiring professionals. So let's be 100% clear:

Are you only saying that the Democratic Party should contract an ordinary private security firm specializing in close personal protection details for its candidates, or are you saying that the Democratic Party should organize and train an organization funded by and employed only by the Democratic Party?
Closer to the former, at least for the time being. I believe that the Democratic Party should hire trained, carefully-vetted armed security to safeguard its candidates, buildings, and events against the threat of Right-wing violence. I had thought that the use of trained, professional security was implied, but again, I'm happy to clarify the point.

I also believe that individuals should exercise their right to bear arms and train in the use of arms, to the extent permitted by law.
I dunno, maybe the part where you've decided to declare that the Democratic Party must develop a paramilitary wing while not realizing that this is, in and of itself, an act of political violence? You realize there's more in the range of political violence than 'self-defence' and 'killing random members of the other side', right?
I was engaging in hyperbole for rhetorical effect.

Is preparing for the possibility of violence an act of violence? There is certainly a risk that preparing for violence will lead to escalation. Again that's a big part of why I've been so reluctant for so long. I didn't want to encourage anything that might lead to people starting a fight we didn't need to have.

All that's changed is that the threat now seems so overwhelming and imminent that the risk of being caught unprepared, in my opinion, outweighs the risks of escalation.
Also, we don't really need to make assumptions about your motivations. You've made them extremely clear, and we just find them risible since you've waited so late in the game to get on board with what others have been saying for years.
I'm still not sure whether your problem is that I'm too pro-violence, or not pro-violence enough/soon enough. And this is a ridiculously petty derail about a very serious topic that, frankly, deserve the most serious and careful consideration. But since you feel that it is a derail, and it is, as you say, your thread, I'm prepared to leave it at that. I hope I have clarified my position.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-05-29 12:41am I won't engage with the continued personal abuse which derails the thread, but to address your actual points:
In other words, TRR yet again throws a hissy fit then tries to paint it as everyone else being mean and engages in zero self-reflection. How novel!
Now, see, there's still a difference between what it seems like you're advocating and just hiring professionals. So let's be 100% clear:

Are you only saying that the Democratic Party should contract an ordinary private security firm specializing in close personal protection details for its candidates, or are you saying that the Democratic Party should organize and train an organization funded by and employed only by the Democratic Party?
Closer to the former, at least for the time being. I believe that the Democratic Party should hire trained, carefully-vetted armed security to safeguard its candidates, buildings, and events against the threat of Right-wing violence. I had thought that the use of trained, professional security was implied, but again, I'm happy to clarify the point.

I also believe that individuals should exercise their right to bear arms and train in the use of arms, to the extent permitted by law.
Okay, so, your language absolutely didn't carry that impression. Maybe work on that when what you're posting could be seen as advocating for the establishment of a paramilitary wing. As it stands, I suspect you'll be disappointed in how willing professional bodyguard services are going to be to stick around if it turns into an actual civil war, which was part 2 of your position. The ones that aren't also PMCs (which are pretty squarely aligned with the Trump administration by all accounts) generally prefer not to engage in illegal military action and also aren't equipped, trained, or prepared for involvement in a civil war.
I dunno, maybe the part where you've decided to declare that the Democratic Party must develop a paramilitary wing while not realizing that this is, in and of itself, an act of political violence? You realize there's more in the range of political violence than 'self-defence' and 'killing random members of the other side', right?
I was engaging in hyperbole for rhetorical effect.

Is preparing for the possibility of violence an act of violence? There is certainly a risk that preparing for violence will lead to escalation. Again that's a big part of why I've been so reluctant for so long. I didn't want to encourage anything that might lead to people starting a fight we didn't need to have.
Establishing an armed paramilitary wing of a party is an act of political violence, yes. You understand that, right?

Quick question, actually. Have you read any Arendt?
All that's changed is that the threat now seems so overwhelming and imminent that the risk of being caught unprepared, in my opinion, outweighs the risks of escalation.
So, are you expecting the hired professionals, who have little to no investment in the Democratic party per se, to be sufficient for this purpose?
Also, we don't really need to make assumptions about your motivations. You've made them extremely clear, and we just find them risible since you've waited so late in the game to get on board with what others have been saying for years.
I'm still not sure whether your problem is that I'm too pro-violence, or not pro-violence enough/soon enough. And this is a ridiculously petty derail about a very serious topic that, frankly, deserve the most serious and careful consideration. But since you feel that it is a derail, and it is, as you say, your thread, I'm prepared to leave it at that. I hope I have clarified my position.
Good, but the thing is: We can have this discussion. It's just extremely hypocritical of you to call people engaging with your thoughts a derail of the topic when your unprompted thoughts have no meaningful relationship to the topic of the thread.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer »

The violence has spread to Louisville, where there's a protest over a separate killing at police hands. Seven shot - I'm going to guess it wasn't the protestors doing the shooting.
"Doctors keep their scalpels and other instruments handy, for emergencies. Keep your philosophy ready too—ready to understand heaven and earth. In everything you do, even the smallest thing, remember the chain that links them. Nothing earthly succeeds by ignoring heaven, nothing heavenly by ignoring the earth." M.A.A.A
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by loomer »

Also, apparently Trump is now threatening to declare martial law in Minneapolis and send in forces to shoot looters and protestors.

So that's happening.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic »

The Alt. Reich militia crowd has agitators embedded in the Minneapolis protests, trying to coopt the protests to their cause.

https://rawstory.com/2020/05/they-want- ... nneapolis/
Young, white men dressed in Hawaiian-style print shirts and body armor, and carrying high-powered rifles have been a notable feature at state capitols, lending an edgy and even sometimes insurrectionary tone to gatherings of conservatives angered by restrictions on businesses and church gatherings during the coronavirus pandemic.

Just as many states are reopening their economies — and taking the wind out of the conservative protests — the boogaloo movement found a new galvanizing cause: the protests in Minneapolis against the police killing of George Floyd.

A new iteration of the militia movement, boogaloo was born out of internet forums for gun enthusiasts that repurposed the 1984 movie Breakin’ 2: Electric Boogaloo as a code for a second civil war, and then modified it into phrases like “big luau” to create an insular community for those in on the joke, with Hawaiian-style shirts functioning as an in-real-life identifier. Boogaloo gained currency as an internet meme over the summer of 2019, when it was adopted by white supremacists in the accelerationist tendency. In January, the movement made the leap from the internet to the streets when a group boogaloo-ers showed up at the Second Amendment rally in Richmond, Va.

Defend democracy. Click to invest in courageous progressive journalism today.
It’s not just the jittery aesthetics and pop-culture irony that sets boogaloo apart from an older generation of militia activists, but also its unbridled hostility towards law enforcement. In late 2019, the movement spread beyond private Discord servers to multiple Facebook groups with names like Thicc Boog Line, Boojahideen of Occupied Appalachistan and, in North Carolina, Blue Igloo. Some of the memes generated and shared on the Facebook pages contain overt signals towards white nationalists, including images of the German Wehrmacht during World War II and references to the failed war to preserve white rule in Rhodesia during the 1970s. But others signal an interest in building bridges with the political left by lifting up the names of black victims of police violence like Oscar Grant, Eric Garner and Breonna Taylor, alongside right-wing martyrs like LaVoy Finicum, Sammy Weaver and Duncan Lemp, the latter a boogaloo-er who was killed by police in March during a no-knock raid at his home in Maryland.

00:00
02:58


When protests against the police killing of George Floyd escalated into clashes between police and protesters on Tuesday night, a significant segment of the boogaloo movement was electrified.

At 8:38 p.m., an anonymous Discord user identified as [MN-TC] Jimmydean338 posted in the #SOS channel for the private Citizens Liberty Organization server. The post displayed a red button inscribed with the words, “Send help!” followed by the address 3000 Minnehaha Ave., which is the location of the Minneapolis Police 3rd Precinct. “Police opening fire on protesters breaching precinc [sic],” Jimmydean338 wrote. “Not a drill.”

At about 11:30, the Big Igloo Bois Facebook group posted a photo of a young man holding the trademark boogaloo flag depicting an igloo and palm tree in the protests.

“If there was ever a time for bois to stand in solidarity with all free men and women in this country, it is now,” the admin for the page wrote. “This is not a race issue. For far too long we have allowed them to murder us in our homes, and in the streets. We need to stand with the people of Minneapolis. We need to support them in this protest against a system that allows police brutality to go unchecked.”

Benjamin Ryan Teeter, a resident of the coastal community of Hampstead in southeastern North Carolina, reshared the red button panel posted by Jimmydean338 on his Facebook page at 11:44 p.m., writing, “Lock and load boys. Boog flags are in the air, and the national network is going off.”

Teeter, who is active in the North Carolina Libertarian Party and has participated in weekly armed excursions through downtown Raleigh with a group organized through the Blue Igloo Facebook group over the four weeks alerted his friends that he would be driving, not flying to Minneapolis.

Tom Bailey, a Libertarian candidate for Congress in 2018, commented, “Grim.” To which Teeter replied, “Exactly! I love it!”

Another private Discord server set up for boogaloo users — named “We should all Led(better)” — had designated special channels for different functions: #on-scene-only (for users on the ground), #off-scene-intel (for remote users sharing information), and #location-want-to-repond (for users across the country to coordinate travel to Minneapolis).

Boogaloo activists who showed up for the first night of protests on Tuesday met with mixed reaction.

One, a white man identified on Facebook as Michael Solomon, posted photographs of himself and another friend holding high-powered rifles while posing alongside black protesters, including one wearing a Black Lives Matter hoodie. But another, Tyler Scott of Minnesota man, warned in the Big Igloo Bois thread: “This is not the time for boog, this is how a race war starts.” He added that the protesters “jumped one of our 3%ers” — a term that denotes an older generation of militia activists — “earlier tonight and stole a firearm. They are not with us. They’ve made it clear they don’t want us.” Scott’s statements were met with skepticism, with other commenters suggesting he was making it up or speculating that the older militia activists were racist and had it coming.

“I think for a lot of boogaloo-ers, their primary interest is resisting the state, what they believe to be state tyranny,” said Alex Friedfeld, an investigative researcher at the ADL Center on Extremism in Chicago. “They have this hostility towards law enforcement…. They oppose these [pandemic] directives. They’re upset about no-knock raids, police brutality. The George Floyd case — this is an example of police brutality, this willingness of the state to execute those who disobey — so it’s not surprising that they showed up to protest.”

The nascent boogaloo movement is not monolithic, Friedfeld said, and it draws from spectrum of groups from the right wing to the far right, from militias and anarcho-capitalists to white supremacists. An internal struggle is underway to define the movement’s relationship with race, he said.

“You see this in the Facebook comments,” Friedfeld said. “You’ll see very strong condemnations of racism and homophobia. Then there are people who use racially charged phrases such as, ‘Vote from the rooftops.’ It’s a reference to Korean shop-owners who went to rooftops to fire on looters [during the 1992 Los Angeles riots], who are presumed to be black. There’s this debate: Why are we accepting Black Lives Matter when they won’t accept us? There’s a good deal of social distrust.”

Antifascist Twitter accounts on Wednesday issued a steady stream of stern warnings against making common cause with boogaloo.

“It’s a right-wing thing; it’s a neo-fascist thing,” said Daryle Lamont Jenkins, a veteran antifascist organizer based in New Jersey, in a Twitter video. “And they’re trying to use what’s happening in Minneapolis as a jump-off. Do not let them. They are not our friends.”

Jenkins told Raw Story that he fears that boogaloo-ers are bringing their apocalyptic fantasies about civil war to Minneapolis and will leave residents to pick up the pieces.

“They can be more aggressive, and they can cause the police to be more aggressive,” he said. “They can get people hurt because they want their civil war…. People who are in the community, all they know is they have to defend themselves. The people they hate get hurt, and they walk away scot-free. So, it’s kind of a win-win for them.

“You don’t even necessarily have to be interacting with anybody in order to pop something off,” he added. “You’re going to be one with the crowd.”

Jenkins noted that Minneapolis has rocky track record with armed white men interposing themselves in protests against police brutality: In 2015, five people at a Black Lives Matter protest were shot, resulting in non-life-threatening injuries. A white man from Bloomington named Allen Scarsella was later convicted in the shootings.

Jenkins charges that the boogaloo-ers are operating in bad faith, citing a fellow New Jersey resident named Paul Miller who was recently involved in a Memorial Day reopen protest. Miller identifies himself as a “Boogaloo Boy” on his Instagram account, which also includes the Latin Catholic motto “Deus vult,” or “God wills [it],” generally associated with Islamophobia.

On Wednesday, Miller re-shared livestreams from Minneapolis on his Instagram, while refraining from providing his views on the action underway. A previous post includes a whimsical video of armed protesters during an April 30 reopen protest at the Michigan state capitol captioned, “When the boogaloo kicks off cuz the boys had enough.”

Others more definitively signal that Miller’s politics don’t align with the protesters in Minneapolis. One calls for the release of the white father and son who are charged with murdering Ahmaud Arbery, a black jogger in Georgia, while another contends that the media is burying coverage of migrants “rioting throughout France.” Miller frequently uses boogaloo hashtags with Instagram posts, including #bigluau, #boogaloomemes, #boogaloo2020, #Boogvirus, #boogaloosidequest and #boogaloobois.

“There’s two versions of boogaloo,” said Friedfeld of the ADL. “There’s the white supremacist burn society down and build a white ethno-stage. And then there’s the anti-government resist tyranny at all costs, and if it creates a civil war, so be it version.”

So far, the wing of the boogaloo movement that’s shown up in the streets is the more mainstream, outwardly inclusive version.

But some white supremacists, especially in the accelerationist tendency, are likely cheering events in Minneapolis from the sidelines, or looking for ways to melt into the crowd.

A user identified as “Terrorwave Refine” messaged at 11:59 p.m. on Tuesday: “Boogaloo boys are reportedly on [sic] place. If someone really wanted to kick off the boogaloo, now would be a fine time to fire some shots and frame the crowd around you as responsible.”

Earlier in the evening, a user named “The Shitpost Facility (Dick)” wrote, “I hate that I support the n****** over the pigs at this point, get some you dumb monkey f****ot. This is absolutely the end goal of our philosemitic society. Imagine giving n****** ‘civil rights’ hahahha.”

Another, named “Uncle Paul,” forwarded Dick’s message, adding, “I don’t support either the n****** or the pigs… certainly not the k****. However, I’ll do some pushups and pull-ups while I watch them redacting each other.”

Benjamin Ryan Teeter, the North Carolina man traveling to Minneapolis, said he is motivated to join the protests out of genuine solidarity with black residents who are oppressed by police violence. Teeter, who describes himself as an “LGBT left-leaning anarchist,” said he plans to “defend the protesters.”

He deflected when asked if he and other boogaloo-ers are consulting with local residents to see how they can best support them, as opposed to pursuing their own agenda.

“I think trying to get the police to stop killing people is trying to support the people of the community,” he said. “If we’re not willing to stand up because we might hurt someone, how bad are we going to allow things to get?”

Teeter insisted the share of white supremacists in the boogaloo movement is no greater than any other group or political party. But he pleaded ignorance when asked about Dillon Goad, a North Carolinian who attended the first Raleigh boogaloo walk on May 1 wearing a Hawaiian-style shirt. In addition to his primary Facebook page, Goad has an alt page under his name that pays tribute to Hans Friedrich, a member of the SS Infantry Brigade accused of murdering Jews and communists in the Soviet Union.

Teeter posted a breathless update at 1:23 a.m. on Wednesday.

“Baltimore cop shot,” Teeter wrote. “Chicago is a powderkeg. MN police are planning an emergency exit if the building is breached.”

Goad was the first to comment: “It’s all coming together.”

Reached on the road nine hours outside of Minneapolis on Wednesday evening, Teeter demurred when asked about Goad.

“Dillon is someone I’m not familiar with,” he said. “I don’t want to speak to the account without knowing. I don’t know if it’s a satire account or something else.”

Whether their movement is infiltrated with neo-Nazis or not, there’s little doubt that the boogaloo-ers want to see an escalation in Minneapolis.

In a post that has now been removed from the We should all be Led(better) server, (KS) RugbyIsLife lamented at 11:38 p.m. on Wednesday: “Looks like it’s just a bunch of looting that should have been booging. Are people going to wake the fuck up and start laying down lead or just steal TVs and shit?”
This is another reason I'm wary of endorsing Left-wing violence- because the Reich very much wants us to start shooting, so they have a pretext to do so as well- and at present, unfortunately, they are far more prepared for it.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Yeah, that's not new. They've been doing that for years.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic »

loomer wrote: 2020-05-29 02:04am Also, apparently Trump is now threatening to declare martial law in Minneapolis and send in forces to shoot looters and protestors.

So that's happening.
About that...

He made a threat to send in the National Guard... after state government had already said they were going to. While Trump is (of course) being a racist, provocative piece of shit, this seems like just him trying to swoop in and claim the credit for stopping the riots.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by The Romulan Republic »

loomer wrote: 2020-05-29 02:33am Yeah, that's not new. They've been doing that for years.
Yeah, I remember the Oathkeepers sent guys to patrol in Fergusson.

They talk about this a lot: how protests will lead to violence, and then Trump will "have" to declare martial law to save the nation. Its pretty obvious this isn't so much idle speculation as a game plan for some of them- agitate and turn the protests violent, so their Fuhrer will have an excuse to seize power.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-05-29 02:35am
loomer wrote: 2020-05-29 02:04am Also, apparently Trump is now threatening to declare martial law in Minneapolis and send in forces to shoot looters and protestors.

So that's happening.
About that...

He made a threat to send in the National Guard... after state government had already said they were going to. While Trump is (of course) being a racist, provocative piece of shit, this seems like just him trying to swoop in and claim the credit for stopping the riots.
I mean, I know. I already posted about the state deploying the National Guard.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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The Phoenix Police Department building is now apparently under siege. I'm going to guess we'll see a few more attempts to burn down strongholds since the 3rd Precinct is a watershed moment in terms of what popular consciousness views as possible during a protest/riot.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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I guess my feeling is that hey, the mob finally targeted the source of their actual anger instead of burning and looting their own neighborhoods. Yay?

Of source, now the police will feel they are targets, which is only going to make further police brutality more likely. Which may lead to more riots.

Because a pandemic isn't enough problem right now. Can't wait for the cicada swarms to arise (yes, they're due this year) to add a wave of insects to the plague and violence. This year is turning into complete shit.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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This is still floating around, and haven't heard it from news sources yet, but it looks like one of the people who started breaking windows was a St Paul cop.

So that's something.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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That'd be about standard. There's usually false flaggers at these things from the cops and the right.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

Post by Ace Pace »

Is it the Corona depression or something else that caused this specific incident to erupt? Or is it basically random?

Because I'm unsure what's more horrible here rather than prior murder by cop.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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loomer wrote: 2020-05-29 06:58am The thugs have arrested a CNN reporter and crew. You don't arrest press.
Some clarification may be in order. 'Thugs' is commonly used to refer to African Americans and protesters, at least by the right wing in the US. So the way you phrased that was a bit confusing to me for the moment, sounding like the *protesters* arrested the reporter.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Elheru Aran wrote: 2020-05-29 07:23am
loomer wrote: 2020-05-29 06:58am The thugs have arrested a CNN reporter and crew. You don't arrest press.
Some clarification may be in order. 'Thugs' is commonly used to refer to African Americans and protesters, at least by the right wing in the US. So the way you phrased that was a bit confusing to me for the moment, sounding like the *protesters* arrested the reporter.
Ah, yes. To be clear, I'm calling the state police who illegitimately arrested a cooperative reporter - who, as it happens, is Black and did not arrest another cooperative reporter who's White - during a protest thugs, because, well. They're thugs.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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The CNN crew has been released from State Police custody following the intervention of the governor.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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Unfortunately, quite a bit of historically significant materials and cultural landmarks have apparently burned up in the Migizi building fire, for both Native American and Latino history.
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Re: Conflict erupts at Minneapolis, L.A. protests over George Floyd death

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The Romulan Republic wrote: 2020-05-29 12:12am I believe the Democratic Party needs its own armed security, but I would prefer that they hire trained, vetted professionals. Of course I don't want them to grab every random person with an itchy trigger finger off the street and shove an assault rifle in their hands.

I think that some level of training and screening is implied in my position, but if it wasn't, I'm happy to clarify the point.
Rom, maybe this will put things into perspective. Can tell us, specifically, what security company or companies you think the Democratic Party to hire security professionals for? I don't expect you to know that off the top of your head, but do a little Googling. While you do that try to think about what exactly they'd be hired for and how many people it would take to do that nationwide. Because you're not just talking about body-guarding dozens of high-level politicians at events. You're talking about enough people to do things like fend off dozens or hundreds of armed right-wingers trying to disrupt public gatherings. Does that sound accurate? Square off with right-wing groups trying to harass or intimidate voters at or near polling stations and be able to either put them down violently or be strong enough that the other side blinks first? Maybe even get into skirmishes with riot police if they decide to stomp on protests and rallies and hold them off long enough to minimize Democrats being injured?

Cus I don't think you'll be able to find existing companies willing and able to do that. Especially since, as has been noted, the companies closest to being set up for that kind of thing are private military contractors like Xe or whatever Blackwater is calling themselves now and they have a pretty strong bias towards Trump.

What you're talking about doing would require the party training and outfitting its own security force. Sure they'd hire experts to train and organize them, but you're kidding yourself if you think it wouldn't develop into its own thing.
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