Umptety shooting in usa. Orlando case

[Elheru Aran]

So... as far as Orlando guy goes... it's starting to sound like he was a deeply closeted gay man, who was something of an extremist 'try-hard' that couldn't get any actual radical groups to actually care about him?

Huh, maybe the FBI closed their investigation because that's pretty much what they picked up on-- until he actually started banging away at people, he would never have amounted to much but a domestic-violence case.

[Crown]

Dear false equivalence fallacy proponents; name me the civilisations that exist (or have existed) where women's rights and gay rights are as protected and championed more than modern Western democracies.

Ta.

The governments are not being compared. The religious attitudes are. Where the religion is permitted to run rampant, this and worse happen frequently. Where it is not--where a secular government keeps religion in check and influences people's beliefs counter to their religion--shit like this happens less often and both gay people and women have better legal protections.

If the catholic church or southern baptists were allowed to set policy, I would be in prison.

Two things;

1. I agree 100% unreservedly with your assessment of the what if scenario (highlighted)
2. You didn't answer the question

[Alyrium Denryle]

Dear false equivalence fallacy proponents; name me the civilisations that exist (or have existed) where women's rights and gay rights are as protected and championed more than modern Western democracies.

Ta.

The governments are not being compared. The religious attitudes are. Where the religion is permitted to run rampant, this and worse happen frequently. Where it is not--where a secular government keeps religion in check and influences people's beliefs counter to their religion--shit like this happens less often and both gay people and women have better legal protections.

If the catholic church or southern baptists were allowed to set policy, I would be in prison.

Two things;

1. I agree 100% unreservedly with your assessment of the what if scenario (highlighted)
2. You didn't answer the question

You want me to answer the fucking question? OK. The western democracies have not championed shit. Is that good enough for you? To champion something, it has to be done willingly. Now, I dont know the historical details of this political process in the western european countries because there are limits to the breadth of even my knowledge base, but I seem to remember... oh right.

We have had to fight tooth and nail, sometimes die, in order to get the basic rights and protection you take for granted. We have had to march in the streets, our politicians have been murdered, we have been subjected to arbitrary arrest. In the US, our existence was not even universally legal until 2003. We still dont have protection from discrimination, and transpeople... right now we have state-sponsored discrimination against transpeople who try to use public bathrooms that we are fighting in the courts, while knuckle-dragging troglodytes beat up any woman they find in the ladies room who looks too mannish. Australia is just a shit-show (like it is on every other human rights issue from their courts down to protecting refugee/immigrant children from being raped by government employees). Some countries are better, but in none of them can we say they "championed" LGBT rights.

And sad part is, yeah. That state of affairs IS better than in many other places. But you can stop masturbating to the idea that it is somehow a mark of our western moral superiority.

[Flagg]

Christ, almost had a heart attack reading the very long dead list and found the last name of a former best friend, then was relieved it wasn't his first name.

Then I read on about how he was on his cell phone to his mother and she heard her poor son, the one I was glad was dead instead of my friend, begging for his life and the answering gunshots that murdered her son. Now I feel like a piece of shit.

[Jub]

Christ, almost had a heart attack reading the very long dead list and found the last name of a former best friend, then was relieved it wasn't his first name.

Then I read on about how he was on his cell phone to his mother and she heard her poor son, the one I was glad was dead instead of my friend, begging for his life and the answering gunshots that murdered her son. Now I feel like a piece of shit.

I'm sorry Flagg, that's some heavy shit to deal with. I know you probably couldn't give two shits about me, but if you need to vent shoot me a PM. We're all part of the same dysfunctional SDN family.

-----

Flagg's case, shitty as it is, goes to show that not all victims were at or even near that club. They didn't have to know anybody there, be a part of the LGBT community, be an ally or anything. These kinds of events send ripples of sadness through all of us. Then we amplify them, treating people as others, worrying more about the weapon than the shooter, looking for patterns that might not be there.

This is a case where I'll say that the gun wasn't the issue; a knife or a bomb wouldn't have been the issue either. This sort of thing is beyond that, maybe even beyond anything we can do to prevent it. What we need to do is stand back up and show that we're still here, still decent human beings who won't stand for this shit, still going to support LGBT people, Muslims, and all points beyond or in between.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I fucking told you. Flagg and Shep's Gun Control diversion merged with the Santa Barbara shooting thread.

[Channel72]

So... as far as Orlando guy goes... it's starting to sound like he was a deeply closeted gay man, who was something of an extremist 'try-hard' that couldn't get any actual radical groups to actually care about him?

Yeah, I've been saying that since page one. This guy was not some hardcore Jihadi - his allegiances aren't even coherent. Pledging allegiance to ISIS and Hezbollah... (???) ... this guy was a fucking tryhard idiot that didn't even know enough to be an ideologically coherent Jidahist. Did he also pledge allegiance to the Wu-Tang Clan?

Too bad he was such an insecure piece of shit that he had to take out 49 people just to prove himself to the world, but in my book he's just a sad, sad mental case, not the Jihadi warrior he so desperately wanted to be. I'm just happy he never lived to see ISIS actually validate his bullshit with their (increasingly desperate) "claims of responsibility"

[Flagg]

I fucking told you. Flagg and Shep's Gun Control diversion merged with the Santa Barbara shooting thread.

Sincere apologies, I missed whatever warning was given. It's no valid excuse, but I had no intention of shitting up the thread, any punitive action will be accepted without argument or appeal.

[Flagg]

So... as far as Orlando guy goes... it's starting to sound like he was a deeply closeted gay man, who was something of an extremist 'try-hard' that couldn't get any actual radical groups to actually care about him?

Yeah, I've been saying that since page one. This guy was not some hardcore Jihadi - his allegiances aren't even coherent. Pledging allegiance to ISIS and Hezbollah... (???) ... this guy was a fucking tryhard idiot that didn't even know enough to be an ideologically coherent Jidahist. <snip>

But he's Muslim, and there was TERRORIST stuff on his MUSLIM computer. So not a shooting, not a hate crime, it's |TERRORISM|

[Flagg]

Places like North Dakota and Alaska, it gets difficult. Not necessarily impossible, but difficult. It is a combination of religious disapproval of birth control that is legally protected in the form of "religious freedom" protections for pharmacists, and the rural nature of the state that makes for long travel distances.

There, one might find it difficult to find a pharmacist within travel range who is willing to fill the prescription.

Oh no! The Christian terrorist is refusing to sell you birth control pills, and the next pharmacy is too far away! That's totally just like murdering dozens of innocent people in cold blood!

Hey, dumbshit douchebag, you know that states like North Dakota and Alaska are massive states with teeny tiny towns where some medications aren't even kept in stock and have to be special ordered, right? You know that the next pharmacy could be 50, 100, or even 200 miles away with no guarantee you'll get your medication, right? You know that in Alaska, the next pharmacy could be a fucking sea-plane ride away with still no guarantee that you'll get the medication, right? And you know that the line about to come out of your stupid, chipmunk-shit eating oral cavity that "Then they shouldn'ta moved there, then" doesn't fucking apply to a 15, 16, or 17 year old girl that made a mistake, maybe drank too much and was taken advantage of, or has a perverted father, uncle, grandfather, brother, or any other assorted male relative or relatives friend with access, right?? But the one doing the poking can get his Viagra at the south goddamned pole.

Glad we got that straight you fucking goober ass cunt swallow.

[Flagg]

I don't care if the fucker was Christian, Muslim, or Jew, only one of the wonderful funderful Abrahamites would have done this. And it pisses me the fuck off that we had body count and all, yet it wasn't a "terrorist attack" until the shooter was identified as Muslim. To paraphrase a wise man: "God damn the USA!"

The guy called 911 during the standoff and pledged allegiance to the ISIS leader. Pretty sure they didn't base the terrorism angle on him "just because" he's Muslim.

And if he had called 911 and pledged allegiance o Pat Robertson it would have been "Mass Shooting Is Hate Crime by Mentally Unstable Individual!!!", do you get what I'm saying? And as the facts are coming out, that would be an accurate headline, but nope, "Terrorist Attack!!!"

[Alyrium Denryle]

I fucking told you. Flagg and Shep's Gun Control diversion merged with the Santa Barbara shooting thread.

Sincere apologies, I missed whatever warning was given. It's no valid excuse, but I had no intention of shitting up the thread, any punitive action will be accepted without argument or appeal.

I dont see the need to punish you. Shame will do that.

[Flagg]

I fucking told you. Flagg and Shep's Gun Control diversion merged with the Santa Barbara shooting thread.

Sincere apologies, I missed whatever warning was given. It's no valid excuse, but I had no intention of shitting up the thread, any punitive action will be accepted without argument or appeal.

I dont see the need to punish you. Shame will do that.

Shame, self hatred, and unending pain do work you needed task yourself with.

[Flagg]

Sincere apologies, I missed whatever warning was given. It's no valid excuse, but I had no intention of shitting up the thread, any punitive action will be accepted without argument or appeal.

I dont see the need to punish you. Shame will do that.

Shame, self hatred, and unending pain do work you needn't task yourself with.

Because I am doth a moron.

[Crown]

Two things;

1. I agree 100% unreservedly with your assessment of the what if scenario (highlighted)
2. You didn't answer the question

You want me to answer the fucking question?

Well I don't know how you use language Alyrium Denryle, but in the two languages I'm fluent in (and a third I'm not so fluent in) I use a question to illicit an answer. Radical, I know.

OK. The western democracies have not championed shit. Is that good enough for you? To champion something, it has to be done willingly. Now, I dont know the historical details of this political process in the western european countries because there are limits to the breadth of even my knowledge base, but I seem to remember... oh right.

What a fascinating arbitrarily restrictive definition of the word 'championing' and a completely pointless semantic nitpick. HERE is a picture of countries which have signed a General Assembly declaration of LGBT rights and/or sponsored the Human Rights Council's 2011 resolution on LGBT rights (shown in Green) and picture of countries which signed a 2008 statement opposing LGBT rights (shown in Red). Can you spot a common denominator? And unless you want to convince me that those countries ambassadors/representatives who did sign on in favour of LGBT rights did so under duress, then under any sane definition we can conclude that these countries are indeed championing LGBT rights.

We have had to fight tooth and nail, sometimes die, in order to get the basic rights and protection you take for granted. We have had to march in the streets, our politicians have been murdered, we have been subjected to arbitrary arrest. In the US, our existence was not even universally legal until 2003. We still dont have protection from discrimination, and transpeople... right now we have state-sponsored discrimination against transpeople who try to use public bathrooms that we are fighting in the courts, while knuckle-dragging troglodytes beat up any woman they find in the ladies room who looks too mannish. Australia is just a shit-show (like it is on every other human rights issue from their courts down to protecting refugee/immigrant children from being raped by government employees). Some countries are better, but in none of them can we say they "championed" LGBT rights.

I'm sorry is this a triggering? If I had asked you to "name me the civilisations that exist (or have existed) where women's rights and gay worker's rights are as protected and championed more than modern Western democracies" would you also feel the need to give me a fucking lecture glorious struggle of the eight hour working day starting from the Haymarket Affair to present day struggles? Or would you just answer the fucking question?

And sad part is, yeah. That state of affairs IS better than in many other places.

Amazing, was that hard for you to type? Here's my followup question; since you clearly understand both the historical context of where things were and how bad they could be (if religion was in the supremacy in the West again) do you also understand what a false equivalency fallacy is and why we should avoid using it?

But you can stop masturbating to the idea that it is somehow a mark of our western moral superiority.

Why? Did you read what Erdogan's press wrote on the Orlando shootings "50 perverts killed in bar"? If you don't consider that as a mark in "western moral superiority" that's an issue for you to work through. The rest of us can feel what we want.

[Broomstick]

So... Erdogan included Omar Mateen among the "perverts"?

Yes, I realize that's not the most earth-shaking observation, I just find it interesting. And repulsive. I mean, one out of fifty is a damn low rate for accuracy.

[RogueIce]

So... Erdogan included Omar Mateen among the "perverts"?

Yes, I realize that's not the most earth-shaking observation, I just find it interesting. And repulsive. I mean, one out of fifty is a damn low rate for accuracy.

Unknown, but keep in mind even US media included Mateen among the 50 dead until it was clarified later for the current number of 49 victims. It looks like this particular headline was using that same information?

I'm not defending them labeling any of the deceased as perverts, mind, just that we don't know if they "meant" to include Mateen given the initial fatality count available.

[amigocabal]

There are renewed calls to ban people on the terror watch list from purchasing firearms.

About a year ago, I drove by the site of Manzanar, near Lone Pine, California. That was where we interned people, not because of what we proved they did, or even for prosecuting them for what they think we did, but for mere suspecting them to be enemies. An apology for those actions would not be for another fifty years.

If we are to take this path, then we would effectively take back that apology.

In fact, we might as well reopen Manzanar.

[General Zod]

It's a half ass measure since potential shooters who aren't on the watch list can still buy semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines.

[Crazedwraith]

It's a half ass measure since potential shooters who aren't on the watch list can still buy semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines.

Still it sounds sensible until you realise they are plenty of people on the list for no other reason than 'has foriegn name' and there's very little judicial process or reveiw of it iirc.

[General Zod]

It's a half ass measure since potential shooters who aren't on the watch list can still buy semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines.

Still it sounds sensible until you realise they are plenty of people on the list for no other reason than 'has foriegn name' and there's very little judicial process or reveiw of it iirc.

And they have absolutely no way to fight watch list inclusion since it's normally classified.

[MKSheppard]

They're saying now that he was texting his wife back and forth during the nightclub attack

[bilateralrope]

It's a half ass measure since potential shooters who aren't on the watch list can still buy semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines.

Making it very easy for a terrorist group to know which of its members are on the watch list. Send them all out to buy a gun. Only those who manage to legally buy a gun get involved in whatever attack the group is planning.

[amigocabal]

It's a half ass measure since potential shooters who aren't on the watch list can still buy semi automatic rifles and high capacity magazines.

Making it very easy for a terrorist group to know which of its members are on the watch list. Send them all out to buy a gun. Only those who manage to legally buy a gun get involved in whatever attack the group is planning.

It is as if these people who are talking about the watch list do not know what the fuck a watch list is supposed to be about.

This issue was actually discussed eleven years ago.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... %5B1-25%5D

[Flagg]

Not to mention that even though straw purchases are illegal, there's nothing to stop one of the dingleberries not on the list from buying an arsenal to share with those on the list. Then again, that... would be breaking the law!!!