The Occupation of Wall Street Spreads

[Connor MacLeod]

I keep wondering if OWS would be easier to deal with if it were unified, organized and trying to get into US politics without altering awareness of the politicla landscape first. I mean to play in US politics you generally need connections and money, and money to get connections, but where would OWS get money? I could see them having to start making compromises to gain support (financial and otherwise) in order to make those changes, and end up getting coopted by lobbies and special interests. I mean, the Democrats have gotten coopted by lobbying, and they've moved progressively further to the right as time passes. What would keep OWS so pure and untainted by politics that they would stay firmly left and still be able to achieve something?

[Lord Zentei]

First three points: Adbusters had planned on Occupy Wall Street being a long-term protest, as far as I can gather. Moreover, anti-corruption and anti-plutocracy isn't anything new either. And while the Mubarak ouster was only a beginning, it has proven more successful than what the OWS are doing.

As for the fourth poiint, while the message usually involves money out of politics, the subsequent items often differ from list to list - Glass-Steagall restored, prosecution of the bankers who caused the crash, an end to revolving doors, and end to the ability of Congresscritters to profit from their own legislation, etc. All worthy goals, to be sure, but still not focused enough.

I'm well aware that if you go to the (right) protestors and listen to what they have to say, then they can usually come up with a list of things. That doesn't mean that the movement is organized enough to deliver a sufficiently coherent message, and that is hurting its prospects.

[Losonti Tokash]

I don't really know what you mean by "not focused enough," since the stuff Simon listed seemed pretty specific. But you do remind me of this:

"In the Spring of 2000, my friend and former colleague Zack Exley arrived in Washington, DC, to observe the protests that had engulfed the city during the World Bank's annual meeting. Driving into Washington from the airport, out the window of his taxi he saw "a teenage white girl with long dreadlocks who wore a homemade t-shirt proclaiming: WE NEED A NEW SYSTEM." Later that evening he attended a party at the home of then-Secretary of the Treasury Larry Summers along with "ambassadors, politicians, esteemed professors and what seemed like the entire combined senior economist staff of the IMF, World Bank and Treasury." It turned out Larry Summers had seen the girl too and was eagerly telling his guests about an interaction he had with her: "And so I asked the girl: 'What is this new system that you want? Tell me about it!' And the girl had nothing. Nothing! She had no fucking clue what this magical new system was supposed to be No one is saying that there aren't problems with the world economy the way it is today. But these kids out there --they don't know what they want!" "Mr. Secretary," said Zack. "You've got 50 economics PhDs in this room who pretty much run the world economy. And you're asking that girl for a better system? Aren't the solutions your job? You admit billions are living in hell, but it's up to that girl to fix it?"

[Stark]

Zentai talked earlier about controlling the message, and its quite arue that OWS is weak in the area. With a hostile media it's easy for them to be presented as ignorant or disorganized or wanting to eat the rich or whatever. If there was some alternate universe version of OWS that was masterminded years beforehand, they would probably have a larger premsence with an accurate represntation of themselves.

[Connor MacLeod]

At least the way they are doing it now is more visceral. People will remember or react to seeing a bunch of people getting peppersprayed by an authority figure (especially given the problems with "police brutality" that have faced cops in the past.) than they will any coherent message. The fact it plays well to the news media (who can be guaranteed to hype it up for the drama and the ratings and to stretch it out as long as it is newsworthy) can only add to this. America is built on propoganda and word bytes like "War on Terror" and "Death Panels." No, it is hardly ideal, but I question the notion that the system the US already has would allow for any other sort of response to persist.

Both sides can use "organization and coherent messages" to their advantages. The difference is that one side has more money and influence and is much more deeply entrenched and able to exert influence. Hell the fact they can get people to think "OWS has no message" is a good example of this - if they can muddy the waters enough with their own counter messages and cause the movement to lose steam, then they win out.

[Lord Zentei]

I don't really know what you mean by "not focused enough," since the stuff Simon listed seemed pretty specific.

Well, as I said, the principal points seem to show considerable variance, though "big money out of politics" appears on most of them. As for your quote, I don't demand a complete list of perfect solutions, but enough coordination to communicate more effectively, and hopefully move on to the next stage - which I have yet to see ideas on what is supposed to be. I still reckon that OWS needs to start endorsing political candidates at some point.

At least the way they are doing it now is more visceral. People will remember or react to seeing a bunch of people getting peppersprayed by an authority figure (especially given the problems with "police brutality" that have faced cops in the past.) than they will any coherent message. The fact it plays well to the news media (who can be guaranteed to hype it up for the drama and the ratings and to stretch it out as long as it is newsworthy) can only add to this. America is built on propoganda and word bytes like "War on Terror" and "Death Panels." No, it is hardly ideal, but I question the notion that the system the US already has would allow for any other sort of response to persist.

I fear that the perception that OWS are involved in violent scuffles may well backfire, WRT public support - though it has undeniably emboldened the protests and their hardcore supporters.

[Stark]

You could say that the area where the 'message' is being commnuicated is relatively small; individuals, websites, etc. Much of this is a sensationalist media and people's normative biases (ie, guys getting beat up by cops must be bad). While I think their message is pretty clear and is accessible, it doesn't seem to be in people's faces and this lets opponents twist it into all kinds of things. The initial lack of organisation certainly gave time for people who didn't have accurate information to form negative opinions, and these are quite unlikely to change (as shown by our resident Chocula).

[Lord Zentei]

Yes, well. Can't convince everyone.

My bigger worry is the results from the polls I cited earlier which shows public support actually waning. I haven't yet found a clear and unbiased analysis of why that should be so (or whether it's a temporary decline), but the move to define the movement by pointing to its more fringe elements as being typical of it may be a cause of that. Also, the heterogeneous nature of the whole thing makes it much harder to boot out the fringe nuts (the more violent rhetoricians and police car poopers, etc.). Remember how people used to rant against the Tea Party "well if they're not all racist, then they need to denounce the fringe elements who are racist"? That's another area where lack of coordination hurts OWS. Granted the paradigm is not really the same, but that won't convince the fence-sitters.

Still ample time to turn things around, IMHO. But right now? The initiative seems to have been ceded.

[Shroom Man 777]

One thing different from those Egypt and Arab Spring guys and OWS.

In Egypt, the guy the people were railing against was clear and present. It's easier to rail against some mustachioed stern dictator martian lawing your country for decades. You point at him, go "that's what's wrong we want to get rid of it", and viola, simple message.

In the USA, the thing that's wrong with the country, the thing that's messing everything up, isn't as clear and obvious. It's camouflaged in layers of obfuscation, in euphemism, and has ingrained and entrenched itself into the whole political system in ways that you can see and in ways that can't be seen to the common man. Heck, that's why it's so hard for there to be "pure" political candidates because to survive in the political apparatus, they have to compromise themselves and beg for money and sell themselves out to corporate sponsors - which is the exact thing the OWS guys are railing against.

It's hard for the OWS guys to form a concrete message because the thing they're railing against is far more complex, far more difficult, and far greater and bigger and more insidious and insinuating than any single generalissimo or dictator who can simply be run off the country for the revolution/movement/protesters to "win".

[Block]

One thing different from those Egypt and Arab Spring guys and OWS.

In Egypt, the guy the people were railing against was clear and present. It's easier to rail against some mustachioed stern dictator martian lawing your country for decades. You point at him, go "that's what's wrong we want to get rid of it", and viola, simple message.

In the USA, the thing that's wrong with the country, the thing that's messing everything up, isn't as clear and obvious. It's camouflaged in layers of obfuscation, in euphemism, and has ingrained and entrenched itself into the whole political system in ways that you can see and in ways that can't be seen to the common man. Heck, that's why it's so hard for there to be "pure" political candidates because to survive in the political apparatus, they have to compromise themselves and beg for money and sell themselves out to corporate sponsors - which is the exact thing the OWS guys are railing against.

It's hard for the OWS guys to form a concrete message because the thing they're railing against is far more complex, far more difficult, and far greater and bigger and more insidious and insinuating than any single generalissimo or dictator who can simply be run off the country for the revolution/movement/protesters to "win".

So demand campaign finance reform? It's a pretty simple sound bite that's been around for 20 years but hasn't been a central theme for anyone.

[Shroom Man 777]

The intersection between business and politics goes way beyond campaign financing. Politicians begging for money and selling themselves out to corporate sponsors happens after campaigns too, and before, and during, and in-between, and basically at all times and all places.

[Block]

The intersection between business and politics goes way beyond campaign financing. Politicians begging for money and selling themselves out to corporate sponsors happens after campaigns too, and before, and during, and in-between, and basically at all times and all places.

Much, much less than seem to you think. Lobbying is by far the most effective when the person owes you money, the person can only owe you money if they had to borrow it because it costs millions to run a winning campaign. Eliminiate that debt, you eliminate an awful lot of corporate influence.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Breaking news from UC Davis; Students have taken over the student services & financial aid building, and have declared their intentions to camp there for two weeks.

Kinda the worst thing you could do to any student nearing the end of the semester, any transcript request or fee payment has to go there, as well as final graduation application submissions.

[The Romulan Republic]

Breaking news from UC Davis; Students have taken over the student services & financial aid building, and have declared their intentions to camp there for two weeks.

Kinda the worst thing you could do to any student nearing the end of the semester, any transcript request or fee payment has to go there, as well as final graduation application submissions.

Yes, as much as I approve of peaceful protests and even civil disobedience, this sounds like something with the potential to screw over a lot of innocent people. Can't say I like this. Probably will hurt the support among fellow students as well.

[Crateria]

In Olympia, Washington one of the occupy groups had apparently gotten inside the State Capitol Rotunda Building and were protesting there. There was a live stream showing the protesters sitting and linking arms while chanting various slogans. They also were singing "Which Side Are You On?" (The Nightwatchman cover), with some guy even giving a beat to it with a makeshift drum.

Various riot police officers stood there, dragging several protesters away every now and then, which was always accompanied by a constant shouting of "SHAME! SHAME!" by the other Occupy people. According to the guy doing the streaming they might have also tasered/tased two people. Unfortunately, the sound quality was crap and it often cut out for minutes on end. It was extremely loud as well, so if it was recorded I wouldn't recommend listening to it on headphones or earbuds.

From what I recall from the footage, the guy who had the camera eventually had to recharge it and he asked the guards if there were any places to charge it. They all said no but I'm pretty sure that he was able to find a place to recharge it, but then he apparently left the building. I'm not quite sure why he did this, but I think he either figured there was nothing more to film or was forced to leave.

I checked the date on OccupyOlympia's website and it says that the news about the occupation of the Capitol Building came in yesterday, along with reports of riot police approaching. I can't verify whether or not the protesters are still there, as there seems to be little new information about this event. Various video commenters were saying that the footage was being repeated from earlier and everything was already over by the time I got around to watching it.

Also of note, OccupyOlympia's Facebook page said that the police were using interstate buses to transport the arrestees.

[Shroom Man 777]

The intersection between business and politics goes way beyond campaign financing. Politicians begging for money and selling themselves out to corporate sponsors happens after campaigns too, and before, and during, and in-between, and basically at all times and all places.

Much, much less than seem to you think. Lobbying is by far the most effective when the person owes you money, the person can only owe you money if they had to borrow it because it costs millions to run a winning campaign. Eliminiate that debt, you eliminate an awful lot of corporate influence.

There's still the whole scratching my back, scratching yours, underhanded favors and the like, the network between the rich and those in power, pork barrel, and a whole lot of stuff. Even without having to finance their own pet politicians, the corporations and the rich will still have an undeniable influence over politics and governments. Because, well, the corporations and the rich are the ones that make pretty much everything.

Reforming campaign financing would help (a bit, a lot, a few?). But I think even with reformed campaign financing systems, you'd still see situations where united fruit companies would ask intelligence agencies to support coups in other nations cause foreign leaders are redistributing land from US corporations to peasant farmers or whatever.

[ComradeClaus]

I wonder, w/ the onset of winter & the migration of hippies & college students to warmer climes, could the homeless in NYC be convinced to take up the occupation duties? There are thousands right? & as locals, it'd be an even bigger embarassment to the Bloomberg Regime.

Hopefully, next years movement will have better logistical planning & less weird hand signs.

Hello? No opinion on this plan? I'm sure most homeless would volunteer in exchange for a hot meal & shower/clean change of clothes.

The very reason jesus became so popular was & gave hope (& bread & fish) to & united multitudes of poor, hungry, downtrodden.

As for the pigs... see on the news recently the pig using a bear spray fogger (size of a fire extinguisher, sprays a couple foot wide cone of solid red agony) to drench the college students?

Protestors need to protect themselves againt pigpression tools. Helmet (bicyclye/football, w/ plastic visor): anti pepperspray, billyclub, taser (DO NOT GET IN EYE!!!) Thick foam padding/plastic plates: breast plate to defeat taser & melee attack. Plywood/clear plastic shield w/ support legs (large enough to brace against ground & form shield wall): TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL!!! THIS IS SPAR...WE ARE 99%!!! (kicks police into the Hudson River)

Must the protestors continue to suffer skull fractures & lung damage when they can fight back?

PS: cast iron fire pokers to make the fight equal. heavy enough to shatter riot shields, sharp enough to pierce kevlar.

[evilsoup]

Must the protestors continue to suffer skull fractures & lung damage when they can fight back?

Yes. If the protesters started to attack the police they would lose sympathy from a lot of people, even people who are on their side right now. It's deeply unfair, but it is as it is.

On the other hand, the sight of unarmed, peaceful protesters being peppersprayed and beaten by armed and armoured police: this is the greatest propaganda coup the Occupy protesters could ask for. Every video of a skull being fractured that makes its way to the internet is a victory for the protesters.

WRT your plan, I know that in the Occupy London Stock Exchange (currently camping out at St. Paul's Cathedral) there have been a lot of homeless people turning up. The protesters have been organising counselling and a needle exchange, and probably other stuff I haven't heard about. I assume the American camps are doing similar things.

But I don't think it would be appropriate to outsource a protest to the homeless.

[Thanas]

I wonder, w/ the onset of winter & the migration of hippies & college students to warmer climes, could the homeless in NYC be convinced to take up the occupation duties? There are thousands right? & as locals, it'd be an even bigger embarassment to the Bloomberg Regime.

Hopefully, next years movement will have better logistical planning & less weird hand signs.

Hello? No opinion on this plan? I'm sure most homeless would volunteer in exchange for a hot meal & shower/clean change of clothes.

Yes, because an organization dedicated to stop hired mouthpieces would do best to employ...hired mouthpieces.

[SpaceMarine93]

Look. I know I am not the most popular guy around this forum due to being young, pessimistic and hyperventilating, but please: does anyone here think that this movement has any actual chances of success? As in, more successful then the Tea Party Movement?

[Spoonist]

but please: does anyone here think that this movement has any actual chances of success? As in, more successful then the Tea Party Movement?

Success? Yes, as in an effect on debates and policy.
Tea Party level? Never, it does not have the financial backing that the Tea Party has.

But the only way for this kind of protests to have a real effect is for it to focus on changing the political system to allow more competition. Without any practical possibility for new political parties to form there is no real chance for change. Instead the current trend will continue regardless of which of the two parties win the elections.

[evilsoup]

If OWS ended up even half as effective as the Tea Party in terms of directly affecting American politics, I'd say that would be a massive success. People are going on about it 'changing discourse' in America, and obviously I'll have to defer to the Americans here as to whether that's the case (the equivalent camps over here are having approximately no influence, but then our police are being pretty good with the policing, so they barely make the papers, let alone headlines). I think that's the goal: long-term change in American politics, as opposed to seizing control of one party as the Tea Party have done (I think?).

Whatever the case, and however slim their chances are of affecting immediate change, they still have a greater chance of doing something than someone moaning on the internet about these things.

[ComradeClaus]

Yes, because an organization dedicated to stop hired mouthpieces would do best to employ...hired mouthpieces.

why 'banghead'? it's not hiring, it's 'charity'/ 'investment' in a better future/ pay it forward, with strategy. & it seems to be working in the uk.

the unemployed/homeless are a mighty ally for the one who mobilizes them.

mao: "masses move mountains"

other communists: "bread & circuses" (or clothes, or shelter)

the Salvation "Army" for example gives to the needy hope to the hoopless, guidance to the aimless

i admit the "300" vs riot police rar was a bit much. at least i didn't advocate a Konvoy of Killdozers w/ flamethrowers

[Thanas]

Yes, because an organization dedicated to stop hired mouthpieces would do best to employ...hired mouthpieces.

why 'banghead'? it's not hiring, it's 'charity'/ 'investment' in a better future/ pay it forward, with strategy. & it seems to be working in the uk.

the unemployed/homeless are a mighty ally for the one who mobilizes them.

*sound of point flying over head*

[Losonti Tokash]

Homeless are already a part of OWS. Not out of any cynical plot to hire warm bodies, but because they are part of the 99% and we are helping feed them and keep them warm when the government won't. Unfortunately a lot of them have severe mental illnesses and the smaller groups (like Lincoln) aren't equipped to help them properly.