2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

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Channel72
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Channel72 »

Simon Jester wrote:There are millions of people who voted for Trump because they want the factory jobs back. They're going to be disappointed.
I agree. And the 3 million truckers in this country are in for a shock when their jobs are taken over by self-driving trucks. There's little that conservative economic ideology has to offer in light of the oncoming technological job massacre.
Ideally, they will walk away from that disappointment having learned a lesson about the dangers of voting for right-wing mock-populist blowhard narcissists.

I want them to learn that lesson.
I would love for them to learn that lesson... but the Democrats will have to fight really, really hard even to make sure Trump receives adequate blame. Trump is very good at scapegoating and deflecting blame, and a lot of his supportors just eat it up because he is inexplicably good at pretending to relate to them, despite living in the penthouse of a colossal, heavily guarded tower on 5th Avenue that looks like something Biff Tannen would have built in alt-1985.

I can easily imagine Trump just blaming congress, or the Democrats, or China, or Mexico, or Sauron, for his failure to actually bring back a substantial number of well-paying jobs that don't require some serious specialization. He'll just keep repeating it over and over again, via CNN and Twitter, and many of his supporters will believe him.
Terralthra wrote:The "economic grievance" argument is largely bullshit. There is still plenty of manufacturing going on in the US. Trade agreements didn't take away their factory jobs. Automation (mostly) eliminated their jobs, and the conservative legislatures took away the unions that made factory jobs so desirable.
The idea that a lot of people in the Midwest are economically fucked isn't bullshit. But I agree with you about the underlying reasons. It just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if automation is largely responsible. The fact is things like NAFTA (which Clinton supported) were easily used as scapegoats, and the Democrats had no great counter-argument. I didn't hear Hillary making the argument you're making. Maybe the Democrats should have had you debate Trump.
Terralthra wrote:I dunno why "we have a major problem with racism" is so hard to say out loud.
Of course we have a major problem with racism, but that's not the entirety of the problem. That doesn't account for the many Obama-voters in the Rust Belt who voted Trump.
Last edited by Channel72 on 2017-01-02 12:00am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Terralthra wrote:
Channel72 wrote:
Simon Jester wrote:The people who actually, God help them, voted for Trump need to learn a lot of lessons. Lessons about basic American civics, and about the importance of picking people who are at least slightly trustworthy for public office. And about how a man who would realistically not hesitate to rape his servants will certainly not hesitate to rape his country. Hopefully, some of that group of people will be learning those lessons over the next four years.
I doubt it. As we all know at this point, it's now being widely discussed and reported that the Rust Belt states that voted for Trump had economic grievances that transcended any issues with Donald Trump's character. This seems really hard to accept and understand for liberals, myself included. You see, I spend most of my time in a liberal, Democratic bubble, so I just assumed that the usual fly-over states would vote Trump, but for the most part the changing demographics we've been hearing about for so long would kick in and Trump would probably lose Florida, and the Rust Belt would vote Democrat as usual, especially considering how Obama basically saved GM. I never even considered the possibility of both Pennsylvania and Michigan flipping red. (Really, Pennsylvania?) But at least some people had been prophetically sounding the alarm well before November.

Many of the people in Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania (and by "many" I mean enough to constitute a substantial voting bloc and flip former blue states) literally do not give a single shit about Trump's sexual antics - and would probably not even understand how the word "rape" even applies to what Trump said. They're not all fanatic right-wingers either, since apparently many actually voted for Obama in 2012. To them, Trump's brazen rhetoric about doing um ... things... huge and tremendous things, I guess, at least sounded like something was going to change. He was also the only candidate (besides Sanders) who regularly railed about international trade agreements being bad for American workers. He didn't offer any real solutions, obviously, but he talked in a confident way that indicated he'd at least do something. That this actually persuaded millions of people is pretty baffling, but it did.

So I think the biggest takeaway for all left-leaning individuals is that we didn't quite understand what we were dealing with here. Democrats should adjust accordingly. If they thought the hot-mic tape with Billy Bush was some kind of ultimate October surprise that would bury Trump, they need to recalibrate their expectations. Obama seemed to get this - he was a brilliant campaigner, and he spent a lot of time in rural Illinois and other places that are now Trump territory. But all the talk about Trump being misogynist and a rapist had very little effect on undecided voters, not to mention white women voters (of whom over 50% voted for Trump). These observations indicate that the Democratic party, and especially very liberal minded people like the majority of SD.net, simply are not in touch with the realities on the ground and therefore would probably suck at campaigning for Hillary Clinton - especially a campaign that is bound by the rules of this national gerrymandering scheme we call the "Electoral College", where crucial voting blocs are comprised of people who don't really think pussy-grabbing is a big deal and just want their factory jobs back so they don't have to work at Walmart anymore.
The "economic grievance" argument is largely bullshit. There is still plenty of manufacturing going on in the US. Trade agreements didn't take away their factory jobs. Automation (mostly) eliminated their jobs, and the conservative legislatures took away the unions that made factory jobs so desirable. No one actually wants to work in a factory that badly; they want what a factory job in the 50s, 60s, and 70s represented: well-paid work with decent benefits, stability, and opportunity for promotion. There's nothing inherently manufactuary about such jobs: the distinction is that factory workers largely were represented by unions, and those unions got them better working conditions and pay.

The people you're talking about believe things about economics and employment that literally aren't true, and their beliefs are driven by listening to the very people who are actually to blame for their Wal-Mart jobs being so awful.

Not to mention that the average Trump voter made more money than the average of any other candidate and suffered less economic uncertainty. I dunno why "we have a major problem with racism" is so hard to say out loud.
And misogyny. Don't forget the misogyny.

After all, apparently admitting to multiple sexual assaults isn't disqualifying in a Presidential candidate.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Dragon Angel »

Wild Zontargs wrote:Short version boils down to "taking stupid stands which are later shown to be invalid demonstrably makes people more likely to reject your position entirely." It's self-sabotage. It sucks, and you can liken it to "victim blaming" if you want, but that's what it does.

If everything is -ist, then nothing is -ist, because -ism just is. -ism is, -ism was, -ism ever shall be. No need to worry about it anymore.
Maybe you would have a point, if this fantasy actually existed on such the enormous scale you believe.
Wild Zontargs wrote:Oh yay, the association fallacy. "Hitler liked dogs" isn't an argument against the SPCA, and "loathsome people also dislike SJWs" isn't an argument against calling SJWs out on their shit.

...

Second verse, same as the first. Hitler used to metabolize sugar, y'know. Better stop that before you turn into a nazi.
I'd like you to quote me some good points Hitler made during his leadership. Since we are talking about speech, after all, not dogs and sugar. Or perhaps actions. Tell me some interesting and beneficial developments Hitler made when he was Fuhrer. Speak to me of all the wonders he achieved.

Also you didn't address my point of trying to appease the fascists, but that's OK, I don't really expect you to.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Soontir C'boath »

Channel72 wrote:Of course we have a major problem with racism, but that's not the entirety of the problem. That doesn't account for the many Obama-voters in the Rust Belt who voted Trump.
And that guy's a fucking nigger from Kenya! The boy had no business being in the WHITE House.
I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Terralthra »

Channel72 wrote:
Terralthra wrote:The "economic grievance" argument is largely bullshit. There is still plenty of manufacturing going on in the US. Trade agreements didn't take away their factory jobs. Automation (mostly) eliminated their jobs, and the conservative legislatures took away the unions that made factory jobs so desirable.
The idea that a lot of people in the Midwest are economically fucked isn't bullshit. But I agree with you about the underlying reasons. It just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if automation is largely responsible. The fact is things like NAFTA (which Clinton supported) were easily used as scapegoats, and the Democrats had no great counter-argument. I didn't hear Hillary making the argument you're making. Maybe the Democrats should have had you debate Trump.
I didn't say there aren't economic grievances, only that the argument that they were caused by Democratic actions (NAFTA, etc.) and that Trump/GOP will do anything to solve them is bullshit. As for the Democrats making that argument, I wouldn't count on it. Democrats have largely abandoned strong, public support for unions and unionizing, for largely the same reason that they don't talk all that much about correcting the massive racial inequities in society: they feel like they can count on those voters already, and there's no reason to court them.
Channel72 wrote:
Terralthra wrote:I dunno why "we have a major problem with racism" is so hard to say out loud.
Of course we have a major problem with racism, but that's not the entirety of the problem. That doesn't account for the many Obama-voters in the Rust Belt who voted Trump.
I think that it's a larger part than you think. President Obama is a twice twice-Ivy-League educated professor who spoke in academic English about platitudes of how America was just the best, while facing economic uncertainty and two wars started by the outgoing administration. Mr. Trump got elected by pointing a bunch of angry white people, told for 8 years that their country was being taken away, at brown people and foreigners, and that the solution to the problems of the inner city was more police. I dunno, I don't feel like the lines here are hard to draw.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Flagg »

Dragon Angel wrote:
Wild Zontargs wrote:Short version boils down to "taking stupid stands which are later shown to be invalid demonstrably makes people more likely to reject your position entirely." It's self-sabotage. It sucks, and you can liken it to "victim blaming" if you want, but that's what it does.

If everything is -ist, then nothing is -ist, because -ism just is. -ism is, -ism was, -ism ever shall be. No need to worry about it anymore.
Maybe you would have a point, if this fantasy actually existed on such the enormous scale you believe.
Wild Zontargs wrote:Oh yay, the association fallacy. "Hitler liked dogs" isn't an argument against the SPCA, and "loathsome people also dislike SJWs" isn't an argument against calling SJWs out on their shit.

...

Second verse, same as the first. Hitler used to metabolize sugar, y'know. Better stop that before you turn into a nazi.
I'd like you to quote me some good points Hitler made during his leadership. Since we are talking about speech, after all, not dogs and sugar. Or perhaps actions. Tell me some interesting and beneficial developments Hitler made when he was Fuhrer. Speak to me of all the wonders he achieved.

Also you didn't address my point of trying to appease the fascists, but that's OK, I don't really expect you to.
I think Hitler banned smoking in public, but I could be wrong on that. So every state that bans smoking indoors is equatable to Hitler now. Or I could be full of shit. :mrgreen:
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Flagg »

Terralthra wrote:
Channel72 wrote:
Terralthra wrote:The "economic grievance" argument is largely bullshit. There is still plenty of manufacturing going on in the US. Trade agreements didn't take away their factory jobs. Automation (mostly) eliminated their jobs, and the conservative legislatures took away the unions that made factory jobs so desirable.
The idea that a lot of people in the Midwest are economically fucked isn't bullshit. But I agree with you about the underlying reasons. It just doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if automation is largely responsible. The fact is things like NAFTA (which Clinton supported) were easily used as scapegoats, and the Democrats had no great counter-argument. I didn't hear Hillary making the argument you're making. Maybe the Democrats should have had you debate Trump.
I didn't say there aren't economic grievances, only that the argument that they were caused by Democratic actions (NAFTA, etc.) and that Trump/GOP will do anything to solve them is bullshit. As for the Democrats making that argument, I wouldn't count on it. Democrats have largely abandoned strong, public support for unions and unionizing, for largely the same reason that they don't talk all that much about correcting the massive racial inequities in society: they feel like they can count on those voters already, and there's no reason to court them.
Channel72 wrote:
Terralthra wrote:I dunno why "we have a major problem with racism" is so hard to say out loud.
Of course we have a major problem with racism, but that's not the entirety of the problem. That doesn't account for the many Obama-voters in the Rust Belt who voted Trump.
I think that it's a larger part than you think. President Obama is a twice twice-Ivy-League educated professor who spoke in academic English about platitudes of how America was just the best, while facing economic uncertainty and two wars started by the outgoing administration. Mr. Trump got elected by pointing a bunch of angry white people, told for 8 years that their country was being taken away, at brown people and foreigners, and that the solution to the problems of the inner city was more police. I dunno, I don't feel like the lines here are hard to draw.
That was candidate Trump, not President-Elect Trump. Remember, in American politics once you win an election you're absolved of any wrongdoing beforehand. Unless you're a Democrat.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Flagg »

Soontir C'boath wrote:
Channel72 wrote:Of course we have a major problem with racism, but that's not the entirety of the problem. That doesn't account for the many Obama-voters in the Rust Belt who voted Trump.
And that guy's a fucking nigger from Kenya! The boy had no business being in the WHITE House.
Well he WAS half white and slaves DID build it.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Wild Zontargs wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:I'd sort of figured you put a large chunk of the blame that way. I'm not sure I understand why, though.
Long version lives here. Short version boils down to "taking stupid stands which are later shown to be invalid demonstrably makes people more likely to reject your position entirely." It's self-sabotage. It sucks, and you can liken it to "victim blaming" if you want, but that's what it does.

If everything is -ist, then nothing is -ist, because -ism just is. -ism is, -ism was, -ism ever shall be. No need to worry about it anymore.
One the one hand, the author of Slate Star Codex makes some good points:
If campaigners against police brutality and racism were extremely responsible, and stuck to perfectly settled cases like Eric Garner, everybody would agree with them but nobody would talk about it.

If instead they bring up a very controversial case like Michael Brown, everybody will talk about it, but they will catalyze their own opposition and make people start supporting the police more just to spite them. More foot-shooting.
The less useful, and more controversial, a post here is, the more likely it is to get me lots of page views.

For people who agree with me, my angry rants on identity politics are a form of ego defense, saying “You’re okay, your in-group was in the right the whole time.” Linking to it both raises their status as an in-group members, and acts as a potential assault on out-group members who are now faced with strong arguments telling them they’re wrong.

As for the people who disagree with me, they’ll sometimes write angry rebuttals on their own blogs, and those rebuttals will link to my own post as often as not. Or they’ll talk about it with their disagreeing friends, and their friends will get mad and want to tell me I’m wrong, and come over here to read the post to get more ammunition for their counterarguments. I have a feature that allows me to see who links to all of my posts, so I can see this all happening in real-time.

I don’t make enough money off the ads on this blog to matter very much. But if I did, and this was my only means of subsistence, which do you think I’d write more of? Posts about charity which only get me 2,000 paying customers? Or posts that turn all of you against one another like a pack of rabid dogs, and get me 16,000?

I don’t have a fancy bar graph for them, but I bet this same hierarchy of interestingness applies to the great information currents and media outlets that shape society as a whole.
So let’s talk about Tumblr.

Tumblr’s interface doesn’t allow you to comment on other people’s posts, per se. Instead, it lets you reblog them with your own commentary added. So if you want to tell someone they’re an idiot, your only option is to reblog their entire post to all your friends with the message “you are an idiot” below it.

Whoever invented this system either didn’t understand memetics, or understood memetics much too well.

What happens is – someone makes a statement which is controversial by Tumblr standards, like “Protect Doctor Who fans from kitten pic sharers at all costs.” A kitten pic sharer sees the statement, sees red, and reblogs it to her followers with a series of invectives against Doctor Who fans. Since kitten pic sharers cluster together in the social network, soon every kitten pic sharer has seen the insult against kitten pic sharer – as they all feel the need to add their defensive commentary to it, soon all of them are seeing it from ten different directions. The angry invectives get back to the Doctor Who fans, and now they feel deeply offended, so they reblog it among themselves with even more condemnations of the kitten pic sharers, who now not only did whatever inspired the enmity in the first place, but have inspired extra hostility because their hateful invectives are right there on the post for everyone to see. So about half the stuff on your dashboard is something you actually want to see, and the other half is towers of alternate insults...

I make fun of Tumblr social justice sometimes, but the problem isn’t with Tumblr social justice, it’s structural.
Every community on Tumblr somehow gets enmeshed with the people most devoted to making that community miserable. The tiny Tumblr rationalist community somehow attracts, concentrates, and constantly reblogs stuff from the even tinier Tumblr community of people who hate rationalists and want them to be miserable (no, well-intentioned and intelligent critics, I am not talking about you). It’s like one of those rainforest ecosystems where every variety of rare endangered nocturnal spider hosts a parasite who has evolved for millions of years solely to parasitize that one spider species, and the parasites host parasites who have evolved for millions of years solely to parasitize them. If Tumblr social justice is worse than anything else, it’s mostly because everyone has a race and a gender so it’s easier to fire broad cannonades and just hit everybody.

Tumblr’s reblog policy makes it a hothouse for toxoplasma-style memes that spread via outrage. Following the ancient imperative of evolution, if memes spread by outrage they adapt to become as outrage-inducing as possible.
(underlining in the above quote added)

______________________

On the other hand... There's a little gem I'd like to call to your attention. The author's response to reading a clever quip directed in response to widespread "rape accusation gone viral" incidents:

"My first thought was that it was witty and hilarious. My second thought was “But when people are competing to see who can come up with the wittiest and most hilarious quip about why we should disbelieve rape victims, something has gone horribly wrong.” My third thought was the same as my second thought, but in ALL CAPS, because at that point I had read the replies at the bottom."

This is a key element in the issue as a whole. The part we should keep in sight.

The reason it's worth complaining about outrage explosions on the Internet is because it is actually bad for us to degenerate to the point where people are spending their time thinking about clever quips about why we should disbelieve rape victims. Or clever quips about why the only good black teenager in a hoodie is the one being held at gunpoint by the cops. Or quips about why people shouldn't complain about feeling like women in video games are sex objects. Or quips about why it's not a problem when a presidential candidate refuses to disclose their tax returns. Or whatever.

In short, it is a bad thing when we spend our mental energy being outraged at outrage-peddlers, and our cleverness on thinking of excuses to avoid paying attention to real evils.

People who lose sight of this are presumably adults. If they commit stupidities or evils because they've forgotten to pay attention to real evils... they're still responsible.

You can't go around saying "social justice must be destroyed," and then be surprised when a lot of the people who agree with you turn out to have a very high tolerance for loathsomeness. Or when those people turn out to be cheerfully willing to support a candidate who shows every sign of planning to wreck the country with a massive shitstorm of corruption. Because lol, it shows those SJWs their place. And that's what REALLY matters, right?
Oh yay, the association fallacy. "Hitler liked dogs" isn't an argument against the SPCA, and "loathsome people also dislike SJWs" isn't an argument against calling SJWs out on their shit.
You misunderstood the reason I made the argument.

See, I started off saying this: "The South Park-ish "Lol, they're all rats and everyone is equally shitty, so it doesn't make any difference who you support" attitude is a major source of the problem here. That mindset does a lot more to strip away our ability to distinguish between good and evil, or between truth and lies, than does having people yell "LIAR! EVIL!" louder than necessary.

This in turn makes people very vulnerable to being fooled by an evil liar who's good at pretending to care about real problems, regardless of whether he actually has the talent or the inclination to do anything about those problems."

That is one side of my point.

...

The other side is that the creation of a backlash movement of "DEATH TO THE ESS-JAY-DOUBLE-YOUS!" has tied into this, has enabled it. Stipulate for the sake of argument that this movement has contributed to a loathsome victory by a loathsome man who advocates loathsome policies. If so, you should not be surprised by this development. It was totally predictable.

Think about it. If you form up your ranks and unfurl your banners and blow your trumpets about how you're going off to do battle with the people who shout "LIAR! EVIL!" too loudly... Guess who is predictably going to join your army? That's right, the evil liars will join your army! Or at the very least they will try to exploit the distraction you create while fighting against the common enemy. If they're already rich and powerful, they will make use of you as cannon fodder.

Because seriously, why wouldn't they? Think of it from their point of view. It's like if you're playing a strategy game and suddenly free troops appear! Who conveniently just happen to be outraged at an enemy you want out of the way! Why would you ever not take advantage of that to strengthen your own position?

So you're getting it backwards.

My criticism is not that you personally are an evil liar because of a decision to associate with a group that opposes the people who shout "LIAR! EVIL!"

My criticism is that a movement you've aligned myself with is one that will predictably work to the benefit of evil liars. And has indeed done so.

I'm not guilting you, it's not about discrediting you personally. It's about discrediting a movement that is indirectly hurting our country. By reinforcing our indifference to problems, and by giving people trite excuses for ignoring those problems.
Dragon Angel wrote:It's especially ironic in that the quote in his signature is from a renowned white nationalist.
Second verse, same as the first. Hitler used to metabolize sugar, y'know. Better stop that before you turn into a nazi.
There's a difference between having "metabolizes sugar" in common with Hitler, and going around with a Mein Kampf quote on your T-shirt.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Channel72 wrote:I would love for them to learn that lesson... but the Democrats will have to fight really, really hard even to make sure Trump receives adequate blame. Trump is very good at scapegoating and deflecting blame, and a lot of his supportors just eat it up because he is inexplicably good at pretending to relate to them, despite living in the penthouse of a colossal, heavily guarded tower on 5th Avenue that looks like something Biff Tannen would have built in alt-1985.

I can easily imagine Trump just blaming congress, or the Democrats, or China, or Mexico, or Sauron, for his failure to actually bring back a substantial number of well-paying jobs that don't require some serious specialization. He'll just keep repeating it over and over again, via CNN and Twitter, and many of his supporters will believe him.
If we can scrape loose just a few percent of Trump's 2016 supporters by pointing out in 2020 that Trump is useless to them*, combined with picking a candidate who knows how to galvanize voters... I really think that will be enough. It's at least enough to provide a good shot.
_____________

*(And also corrupt and powerful and married to their mother; a lot of people in my social circle have been making those Biff Tannen references. :D )
Terralthra wrote:I didn't say there aren't economic grievances, only that the argument that they were caused by Democratic actions (NAFTA, etc.) and that Trump/GOP will do anything to solve them is bullshit. As for the Democrats making that argument, I wouldn't count on it. Democrats have largely abandoned strong, public support for unions and unionizing, for largely the same reason that they don't talk all that much about correcting the massive racial inequities in society: they feel like they can count on those voters already, and there's no reason to court them.
I would fondly hope that the 2016 election disrupts some of that complacency.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Dragon Angel »

Flagg wrote:I think Hitler banned smoking in public, but I could be wrong on that. So every state that bans smoking indoors is equatable to Hitler now. Or I could be full of shit. :mrgreen:
Hitler probably took more inspiration from Mussolini and made the German trains run on time too. Trains are important man. Hence why Long Island's transportation system is fascist! q.e.d. :idea:
Simon_Jester wrote:Think about it. If you form up your ranks and unfurl your banners and blow your trumpets about how you're going off to do battle with the people who shout "LIAR! EVIL!" too loudly... Guess who is predictably going to join your army? That's right, the evil liars will join your army! Or at the very least they will try to exploit the distraction you create while fighting against the common enemy. If they're already rich and powerful, they will make use of you as cannon fodder.

Because seriously, why wouldn't they? Think of it from their point of view. It's like if you're playing a strategy game and suddenly free troops appear! Who conveniently just happen to be outraged at an enemy you want out of the way! Why would you ever not take advantage of that to strengthen your own position?
Simon_Jester wrote:My criticism is that a movement you've aligned myself with is one that will predictably work to the benefit of evil liars. And has indeed done so.
Gods, this. When so much of the encroaching regressive bullshit blew up back during GamerGate, people had been mentioning that supporting the movement, no matter one's stance in ethics in games journalism, also meant supporting the bad actors that drove it, as well as the bad intentions that began it. They had a point.

Heck, even those years ago, I already knew the gaming press was not entirely honest. But I also knew the movement itself was toxic, dishonest, and trauma-inducing. While I, on the surface level, may have supported GamerGate's stated goals of bringing better games reporting, I chose not to support them and was actively disgusted by them because of their actions toward women and other marginalized groups. I refused to be a useful idiot for signal boosting the likes of Milo Yiannopoulous.

In the end ... that's pretty much what anti-social justice ends up becoming. Signal boosting regressive right commentators and leaders, who have their own agenda in which they ride on these useful idiots to propagate it. Mike Pence is infamous for being hardline anti-LGBTQ. Steve Bannon is a nativist xenophobe. The rest of Trump's cabinet will be made up of financial moguls, who will most likely bleed and exploit this country dry to the bone. Congress is pretty much Republican now. Any amount of progress we have made in the last decade? That is in serious jeopardy.

Because random Twitter, Tumblr, et. al. users who are of no consequence to the greater community said something "outrageous".

Congratulations, thanks to the lack of sense of scale by liberal, centrist, and even a few "leftist" anti-SJWs, anything they still believed in? Or at least, purported to? Gone into the drain, now given to the party they were supposedly against. The right has taken over. All because of a lack of vision.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Dragon Angel wrote:
Flagg wrote:I think Hitler banned smoking in public, but I could be wrong on that. So every state that bans smoking indoors is equatable to Hitler now. Or I could be full of shit. :mrgreen:
Hitler probably took more inspiration from Mussolini and made the German trains run on time too. Trains are important man. Hence why Long Island's transportation system is fascist! q.e.d. :idea:
The Italian trains never ran on time. Mussolini just huffed and puffed and said they were, and people believed him because he looked good with his shirt off pretending to chop wood for a photo op.

Honestly, I think that "Trumpolini" is the most apt 'Trump name slur' I've heard so far. We shouldn't compare him to Hitler.

Hitler was a man who, in addition to his rabble-rousing, had some really terrifying abilities. He had an excellent eye for his opponents' jugular, at least until the overconfidence ran away with him. And he had remarkable memory and grasp of detail, even if his leadership abilities were fatally compromised by his megalomania.

Mussolini, by contrast, had nothing but his rabble-rousing. As soon as he was truly put to the test by the need to provide wartime leadership, he turned out to be an incompetent, farcical, blundering shell of a man.

Trump deserves to be compared to Mussolini.
Simon_Jester wrote:Think about it. If you form up your ranks and unfurl your banners and blow your trumpets about how you're going off to do battle with the people who shout "LIAR! EVIL!" too loudly... Guess who is predictably going to join your army? That's right, the evil liars will join your army! Or at the very least they will try to exploit the distraction you create while fighting against the common enemy. If they're already rich and powerful, they will make use of you as cannon fodder.

Because seriously, why wouldn't they? Think of it from their point of view. It's like if you're playing a strategy game and suddenly free troops appear! Who conveniently just happen to be outraged at an enemy you want out of the way! Why would you ever not take advantage of that to strengthen your own position?
Simon_Jester wrote:My criticism is that a movement you've aligned myself with is one that will predictably work to the benefit of evil liars. And has indeed done so.
Gods, this. When so much of the encroaching regressive bullshit blew up back during GamerGate, people had been mentioning that supporting the movement, no matter one's stance in ethics in games journalism, also meant supporting the bad actors that drove it, as well as the bad intentions that began it. They had a point...

In the end ... that's pretty much what anti-social justice ends up becoming. Signal boosting regressive right commentators and leaders, who have their own agenda in which they ride on these useful idiots to propagate it. Mike Pence is infamous for being hardline anti-LGBTQ. Steve Bannon is a nativist xenophobe. The rest of Trump's cabinet will be made up of financial moguls, who will most likely bleed and exploit this country dry to the bone. Congress is pretty much Republican now. Any amount of progress we have made in the last decade? That is in serious jeopardy.

Because random Twitter, Tumblr, et. al. users who are of no consequence to the greater community said something "outrageous".

Congratulations, thanks to the lack of sense of scale by liberal, centrist, and even a few "leftist" anti-SJWs, anything they still believed in? Or at least, purported to? Gone into the drain, now given to the party they were supposedly against. The right has taken over. All because of a lack of vision.
To be fair, this isn't only because of the anti-SJW backlash. But it's a contributing variable.

The flip side is... we really, really do need to be mindful in the future of the need to pick our battles. Left-wing activists need to learn to ask themselves "is this the hill I want to fight for, is this the hill I am prepared to risk dying on?"

I actually do suggest you read the entirety of the Slate Star Codex article Zontargs linked to; it's a good one and food for thought. Even a stopped chronometer is right once in a millenium.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Dragon Angel »

Simon_Jester wrote:To be fair, this isn't only because of the anti-SJW backlash. But it's a contributing variable.
I know, it was just to your point of allying with people who have their own agendas. Support of them ended up being support for their entire platforms.
Simon_Jester wrote:The flip side is... we really, really do need to be mindful in the future of the need to pick our battles. Left-wing activists need to learn to ask themselves "is this the hill I want to fight for, is this the hill I am prepared to risk dying on?"

I actually do suggest you read the entirety of the Slate Star Codex article Zontargs linked to; it's a good one and food for thought. Even a stopped chronometer is right once in a millenium.
I'll be the first to say there are quite a few hot take meisters who should really cool it, especially when speaking about groups they don't belong in. The left's tendency to devour itself over petty differences also irritates me to no end whenever it happens.

Of the quotes you pasted from the SSC article, I mainly took issue with the racism / police brutality excerpt, because the assumption of "perfectly settled" is not perfectly settled in a universal scope. Common sense is not so common, after all. There are many who really do believe Eric Garner deserved his death, that the police were right in their extrajudicial punishment or they were just merely doing their jobs, and Garner's death was completely accidental, with no negligence whatsoever.

If we stuck to hypothetical "perfectly safe" subjects, though, as much as they existed? The finer nuances of cases like the "controversy" over Michael Brown will end up being slanted toward the status quo's interpretation. No comment from one viewpoint will end up giving those in power's narratives more precedence over those not in power.

The question then becomes: Should we allow some moderate percentage of cases to go unnoticed, in fear of any possible backlash? If we do allow this, are we prepared to live with the prevailing narrative that will emerge to dominate the discourse out of this silence?

I'm not sure I can possibly do that. For me, personally, it would be like standing idly by while evil does its work. This reaches out beyond my own marginalized status; it forces me to let something possibly immoral pass by in fear of appearing politically insecure. Any possible benefits of being non-controversial would be washed away by the prevailing narrative being allowed to speak with no consequence. The prevailing narrative will almost invariably be against me in any case, even if I only spoke out on the safer subjects.

This is perhaps why so many left-leaning people loathe the Democrats and other liberal centrists. They feel, and in the majority of cases very justified, that the American liberal party is too willing to throw them under a bus for other political gains. They can't believe in a group that is so willing to sacrifice their interests whenever it is convenient. I guess this goes back to "picking our battles" ... one must be careful, but one cannot be complacent.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Terralthra »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Terralthra wrote:I didn't say there aren't economic grievances, only that the argument that they were caused by Democratic actions (NAFTA, etc.) and that Trump/GOP will do anything to solve them is bullshit. As for the Democrats making that argument, I wouldn't count on it. Democrats have largely abandoned strong, public support for unions and unionizing, for largely the same reason that they don't talk all that much about correcting the massive racial inequities in society: they feel like they can count on those voters already, and there's no reason to court them.
I would fondly hope that the 2016 election disrupts some of that complacency.
Why would it? PoC and union members voted for Sec. Clinton by large margins across the country. The Democrats were, and continue to be, right about which voters will support them regardless of the DNC's stump speeches and talking points. If you listen to DNC loyalists like FireNexus, you'll find that the "lesson Democrats should learn from 2016" is that you have to nominate a white male moderate in order to keep the complacent/covert white supremacists from defecting to rampant xenophobia on the other side.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

Terralthra, the flip side is that they DID lose some states they were clearly expecting to win.

Sure, they got support from union members- but union membership has been shriveling up for decades. There are a lot of voters in the same demographics as the union members, who aren't union members. Their support would have been helpful.

Sure, among minorities who turned out to vote they got support- but it would have been really, really helpful if a few hundred thousand more black voters had shown up to the polls in a few critical states. They didn't.

These are things that represent missed opportunities that a competent political operator really, really ought to be able to see.

There's going to be a lot of debate in the DNC, and probably some changes in who is in charge and just what leadership culture they bring to the table. That nearly always happens in political parties where the leadership backs the wrong horse. The question is what comes out of that.
Dragon Angel wrote:I'll be the first to say there are quite a few hot take meisters who should really cool it, especially when speaking about groups they don't belong in. The left's tendency to devour itself over petty differences also irritates me to no end whenever it happens.

Of the quotes you pasted from the SSC article, I mainly took issue with the racism / police brutality excerpt, because the assumption of "perfectly settled" is not perfectly settled in a universal scope. Common sense is not so common, after all. There are many who really do believe Eric Garner deserved his death, that the police were right in their extrajudicial punishment or they were just merely doing their jobs, and Garner's death was completely accidental, with no negligence whatsoever.
Yes, but the point is that Garner got a lot more sympathy, and unambiguous sympathy.

You can't convince them all, but you can at least hope to convince a majority, including those who are growing up with this as one of their first exposures to this category of national scandal.

The lesson should be "Don't make it easy for the bastards to paint you as a hysterical liar."
If we stuck to hypothetical "perfectly safe" subjects, though, as much as they existed? The finer nuances of cases like the "controversy" over Michael Brown will end up being slanted toward the status quo's interpretation. No comment from one viewpoint will end up giving those in power's narratives more precedence over those not in power.
The catch is, there's a huge difference between "which cases happen" and "which cases get publicized."

Michael Brown's case wouldn't have gotten massively publicized if people on the left hadn't chosen to give it massive publicity. The Ferguson police wouldn't have done it by themselves. We know this because not every black teenager the police kill gets that level of publicity.

If every ounce of the publicity that went to Michael Brown had gone to (for example) Freddie Gray instead, we'd have been better off. Because while Gray's death can be ruled an accident, getting mad over a man who clearly didn't deserve to die "accidentally" dying of getting his neck broken for the offenses he was arrested over is a lot more sympathetic than getting mad over a man getting shot who ten eyewitnesses say picked a fight with an armed police officer and who pretty strongly appears to have gotten caught on video robbing a convenience store.

Picking your battles isn't the same as letting the enemy write the narrative. It's making sure that your narrative won't end up getting inconveniently disemboweled if the facts turn up not to be quite what you thought they were in the specific case you chose to make your poster child.

Honestly, I think that makes it harder for the enemy write the narrative, not easier.
The question then becomes: Should we allow some moderate percentage of cases to go unnoticed, in fear of any possible backlash? If we do allow this, are we prepared to live with the prevailing narrative that will emerge to dominate the discourse out of this silence?
Nonono. The question is as follows. Of the literally hundreds of cases that occur every year, only a very few rape cases and police shootings and so on will "go viral."

Which ones should I be seeking to publicize?

Should I go looking really hard for the rape case where everyone in authority decided the woman who lodged the complaint was lying, accepting the risk that a facts-based and neutral investigation really will reveal that she actually was lying, as happens a certain narrow minority of the time?

Should I go rushing to the press with news that a policeman just shot a teenager in cold blood, risking that I might wind up with egg on my face after he's caught on a security camera robbing a convenience store and after ten eyewitnesses swear up and down they saw him charge the officer?

Dig in on the moral high ground. But think things through. Make sure one hasn't picked a hilltop that has the enemy giggling with manic glee because of the umpty dozen barrels of TNT they buried under your position before you arrived on the scene.

Don't make it easy for the bastards to paint you as a hysterical idiot. They're good enough at doing that to people as it is.
I'm not sure I can possibly do that. For me, personally, it would be like standing idly by while evil does its work. This reaches out beyond my own marginalized status; it forces me to let something possibly immoral pass by in fear of appearing politically insecure. Any possible benefits of being non-controversial would be washed away by the prevailing narrative being allowed to speak with no consequence. The prevailing narrative will almost invariably be against me in any case, even if I only spoke out on the safer subjects.

This is perhaps why so many left-leaning people loathe the Democrats and other liberal centrists. They feel, and in the majority of cases very justified, that the American liberal party is too willing to throw them under a bus for other political gains. They can't believe in a group that is so willing to sacrifice their interests whenever it is convenient. I guess this goes back to "picking our battles" ... one must be careful, but one cannot be complacent.
What I'm trying to speak up for is the kind of clear-eyed, hard-minded determination that a good general has in a war zone. Every good general knows which side of the war they're on, knows who their troops are, and isn't going to abandon or betray any of them.

But every good general is capable of saying "Yep, that piece of ground over there? That is not worth sending my people to bleed over."

Someone who can't do that will spend an awful lot of time walking into traps and getting blown sky high.

That is what I'm talking about here. I hope you find that more sympathetic than "I suggest we throw inconvenient and difficult-to-defend groups under the bus."

What I want is determined advocacy for groups, but with careful attention to who we let be transformed into the poster children of our movements. And of which specific grassroots-level events we turn into national issues.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Dragon Angel wrote:If we stuck to hypothetical "perfectly safe" subjects, though, as much as they existed? The finer nuances of cases like the "controversy" over Michael Brown will end up being slanted toward the status quo's interpretation. No comment from one viewpoint will end up giving those in power's narratives more precedence over those not in power.
Think of it like this. Some cases are obviously fucked up to the vast majority of people. No reasonable person thinks Garner should have died or that the actions of the police in that case were justified.

But yet the system protected the police involved. I think a lot of the structural changes that need to be made can be made on the backs of those cases, and if they can be made that way, the root problem is solved.

If you flood the media narrative with false positives or cases more difficult to resolve, you give ammunition to white supremacists who want to discredit you in order to preserve the racist status quo. For example, take Michael Brown. If I were to have assumed direct control, I wouldn't have used his case at all. I would use the case of the (completely innocent) black dude who the FPD beat into the hospital and then charged with destruction of public property for bleeding on their uniforms. I shout that to the heavens (happened a couple years before Brown did and is working its way through the courts last time I checked), bring to DOJ in, and break that clusterfuck wide open.

And no one in their right minds will think what the police did there was justified.

People start rioting? Okay, that is a case where you can say without hesitation that people SHOULD be rioting, because jumping an innocent person in their cell, beating them for no reason, and then trying to have them imprisoned for bleeding on police uniforms is so fucked up that no one in their right minds would defend it.

Then when the police crack down on the rioters (like they do), then they are just trying to protect their very obviously corrupt department. They get no sympathy from anyone but those paying KKK dues.

But that also requires activist groups to have a centralized power structure that can make intelligent decisions. Crowd sourcing activism prioritization through a twitter hashtag is a fucking terrible idea.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

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Fucking terrible indeed.

See the thing is, the alt-right and the associated organizations kind of do have a semi-centralized power structure. It's not 100% centralized but some central directing intelligences exist. Fox News is one of the obvious ones.

These groups don't orchestrate everything that happens, but they DO have enough control that they can selectively minimize or maximize how much their target audiences see of things. They can maximize awareness of things calculated to make the left look stupid or evil, while minimizing awareness of the alternative. And they can do this subtly enough that the American center often doesn't realize what is going on, and is taken in.

That has been a tremendous asset for the American right over the past thirty years. It's one of the reasons they are so capable of framing left-wing advocates as evil liars. Because they have actual organizations that do the framing.

Trying to counter this with crowdsourced target prioritization is, as Alyrium says, a very bad idea. Because it results in the left charging headlong into fires while all the right has to do is cackle and pull out the bottles of barbecue sauce to roast us with.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Dragon Angel »

I never suggested that activism be a crowdsourced leaderless movement. I thought I argued against it when I mentioned those many hot takespeople. Anyway, if that wasn't clear, then here it is.

Honestly, I don't understand the assumption that Eric Garner's case was more open and shut in the eyes of the public than Michael Brown's. From what I'd seen, Garner was treated with similar discourse about his trying to resist arrest, about his sales of cigarettes illegally. I didn't see his case treated "unambiguously" at all.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Dragon Angel »

Frack, the edit window passed before I could add this, sorry:

It's incredibly difficult as it is to argue with the right wing's misrepresentation of the truth, because there are too many people on various sides of the spectrum who are not just gullible enough to believe them, but have any amount of bias toward it. If this wasn't the case, then we wouldn't still have uninformed legions misusing terms like "trigger warnings" and "safe spaces". Their narrative has just reached such a cultural level where how they define terms is a given, in spite of any reality people who know better can speak about.

How am I to be sure that trying to find the perfect victim will be fruitful enough to make that much of a difference? I do not have the same faith as both of you do if we are dealing with people so on the fence such that publicizing one imperfect victim jeopardizes the image of a whole movement. I'd like to think the message could still get across even if a victim was not clean. Rodney King was not a saint either when he was arrested and beaten, but yet what was done to him was still wrong and shown to be wrong.

We also live in a culture now where people will either ignore basic facts, or alternative interpretations of said facts. We've seen conservatives regularly abuse crime statistics to justify their narratives, removing all context while doing so. I understand the reservation in wanting to be careful on what battles you choose, but it's an easy slippery slope to become too paranoid to act.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Simon_Jester »

The issue isn't people so on the fence that one imperfect victim jeopardizes the movement. It's that if we wind up publicizing five victims and three or four cases out of five turn out to simply not be what we painted them as, that can add up to discrediting the movement in the eyes of people who really are sincerely trying to be intellectually honest and listen to us.

Moreover, it also has this effect on young people who haven't yet picked a narrative to believe for the rest of their lives. People who are now fifteen or twenty, just reaching out and forming their worldview. They may not be fully inside anyone's bubble yet, or they may migrate from one bubble to another depending entirely on what they find in the bubbles they see.

Do you want it to be easy for others to present you, before such an audience, as being dishonest? They've made it fairly easy for you to do the same to them. Why make that a weapon that can be easily turned around to hit you in turn?

I mean... Clearly you're not going to reach everyone, not even close. A lot of people are already in their own reality-warping bubbles. But unless it is literally pointless to even try to reach anyone, we need to learn to think carefully about how to make sure we don't have to fight uphill against the facts AND the right-wing's favored narratives at the same time. Fighting one of those is difficult. Both? Impossible.

...

Thus, for instance, the reason Rodney King made a good high-profile case is that he actually suffered a wrong. There was video evidence he'd suffered a wrong, that the police kept beating him far past the point where he had ceased to resist. Regardless of anything else that did or didn't happen in his past, that one fact remained in play.

Now, imagine how horrible and stupid it would have looked if the video had turned out to be staged somehow, with the real event being very different? How badly it would have backfired?

That's what I'm talking about.

The problem isn't waiting to find a saint. The problem is that in the eyes of people who are anywhere near the fence, it looks really bad when the activist circuit tries to play up a rape case where there actually is strong reason to think the accused is innocent, or a police shooting where half the eyewitnesses say the dead man attacked the police officer and the other half are describing the incident in ways that contradict both each other and the forensics report.

We really do need to make a constant effort to ensure that the minimum, elementary facts are on our side. Otherwise a difficult struggle becomes impossible.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Dragon Angel »

Simon_Jester wrote:The issue isn't people so on the fence that one imperfect victim jeopardizes the movement. It's that if we wind up publicizing five victims and three or four cases out of five turn out to simply not be what we painted them as, that can add up to discrediting the movement in the eyes of people who really are sincerely trying to be intellectually honest and listen to us.
I got the one since the singular imperfect case we have been discussing has been Michael Brown's. It seemed to me that the points of contention, which included but were not limited to how Michael Brown was shot excessively, how his body was left to rot for hours before it was picked up, how the police force and prosecutor acted during the investigations and trial, how the protests afterward were treated by the police, etcetera were being downplayed.

Ostensibly we are not going to come to an agreement here, as I don't see compromised cases being accepted statistically widespread enough--being anywhere close to a problem--to be that much of an image breaker. If you can name several other similarly problematic cases, I'd be more open to considering your position.
Simon_Jester wrote:Do you want it to be easy for others to present you, before such an audience, as being dishonest? They've made it fairly easy for you to do the same to them. Why make that a weapon that can be easily turned around to hit you in turn?
Of course I don't. My argument is one of boldness, not recklessness. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your argument; I've been seeing talk upon talk of needing to compromise and suck up over and over ad nauseum to the right, that what you're saying is ending up mentally equating to that. The NCGOP debacle was just one example of it, as well as a false moral and tactical dilemma.

It is in my strongly held opinion that we are too concerned with defending ourselves from the right's movements than launching our own crusade against them. This is the angle I am coming from.
Simon_Jester wrote:Thus, for instance, the reason Rodney King made a good high-profile case is that he actually suffered a wrong. There was video evidence he'd suffered a wrong, that the police kept beating him far past the point where he had ceased to resist. Regardless of anything else that did or didn't happen in his past, that one fact remained in play.
Michael Brown's being shot multiple times being excessive force is in dispute? Even if he was charging toward the officer, was it at all necessary to empty the clip on him?
Simon_Jester wrote:Now, imagine how horrible and stupid it would have looked if the video had turned out to be staged somehow, with the real event being very different? How badly it would have backfired?
Witness testimony being inconsistent isn't ... comparable to making up an entire fiction. The end result is a kid died under extremely questionable circumstances, with extremely questionable procedures being used to handle Wilson's case in both the law enforcement and courts' sides.
Simon_Jester wrote:The problem isn't waiting to find a saint. The problem is that in the eyes of people who are anywhere near the fence, it looks really bad when the activist circuit tries to play up a rape case where there actually is strong reason to think the accused is innocent, or a police shooting where half the eyewitnesses say the dead man attacked the police officer and the other half are describing the incident in ways that contradict both each other and the forensics report.

We really do need to make a constant effort to ensure that the minimum, elementary facts are on our side. Otherwise a difficult struggle becomes impossible.
Once again, I don't see how this is as much of a problem as you and others are making this out to be. Yes, it's an issue if something with inconsistent facts is trumpeted, but now I ask, how much of this was known while the proceedings were going on? Law enforcement and the courts did not help themselves either with the shady maneuvers they were throwing around. I find it ridiculously unfair that their mistakes are not being attacked like the alleged mistakes of the activists. I mean, yeah, "life isn't fair", but if honest discussion is to be made then we have to talk about that too.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Wild Zontargs »

Simon_Jester wrote:People who lose sight of this are presumably adults. If they commit stupidities or evils because they've forgotten to pay attention to real evils... they're still responsible.
Yes. If I go away after Christmas, forget to lock the door, don't set any timers on my lights, let the newspapers pile up at the front door, leave a bunch of boxes for expensive electronics at the curb, and someone robs my house, the robber is responsible. However, the police will (rightly!) point out that I did things which make getting robbed more likely, and which they had repeatedly warned everyone not to do. That makes me responsible as well as the robber. It's not zero-sum. The one does not reduce the other.
"The South Park-ish "Lol, they're all rats and everyone is equally shitty, so it doesn't make any difference who you support" attitude is a major source of the problem here. That mindset does a lot more to strip away our ability to distinguish between good and evil, or between truth and lies, than does having people yell "LIAR! EVIL!" louder than necessary.
On the contrary, I think this demonstrates that people needing to break things down to "good vs evil" is the problem. Clinton was a bad candidate for [reasons]. Trump was also a bad candidate for [different reasons]. People can (and do, and did) disagree on who is worse overall, and why. The breakdown comes when we get to TRUMP EVIL LITERALLY HITLER or CLINTON EVIL PIZZAGATE SATANISM. When we can't talk about "Trump is bad but probably doesn't want to commit genocide, and Clinton is bad but probably doesn't molest children" everything falls apart. That isn't "lol equally shitty", that's dealing with the real world instead of caricatures.
The other side is that the creation of a backlash movement of "DEATH TO THE ESS-JAY-DOUBLE-YOUS!" has tied into this, has enabled it. Stipulate for the sake of argument that this movement has contributed to a loathsome victory by a loathsome man who advocates loathsome policies. If so, you should not be surprised by this development. It was totally predictable.
I not only agree that both the SJW movement and the backlash it spawned helped Trump, I suspected/warned/predicted it when Trump started taking over the Republican primaries. "This elects Trump", "this is why Trump won" and "Trump reelection campaign" (the latter referring to particularly insane "progressive" comments or articles) are memes for a reason.
Think about it. If you form up your ranks and unfurl your banners and blow your trumpets about how you're going off to do battle with the people who shout "LIAR! EVIL!" too loudly... Guess who is predictably going to join your army? That's right, the evil liars will join your army! Or at the very least they will try to exploit the distraction you create while fighting against the common enemy. If they're already rich and powerful, they will make use of you as cannon fodder.

Because seriously, why wouldn't they? Think of it from their point of view. It's like if you're playing a strategy game and suddenly free troops appear! Who conveniently just happen to be outraged at an enemy you want out of the way! Why would you ever not take advantage of that to strengthen your own position?
Indeed. Perfectly sensible of them. We've seen plenty of examples in history, including (and this isn't partisan axe grinding, just a reminder that it is neither new nor particular to the far right) Communists supporting progressive movements, then purging the non-Communists when they win. Everyone does this. It's how fringe politics works. It's an argument for smacking down the extremists, not an argument for shutting up.

However, if you're dealing with a herd of cats rather than a formal party, sanctions don't work, and the original article pointed out that shaming doesn't work anymore (especially since The Boy Who Cried Racist has ruined that particular word for pointing out actual racists). All that's left is "not my circus, not my monkeys" disavowal.
So you're getting it backwards.

My criticism is not that you personally are an evil liar because of a decision to associate with a group that opposes the people who shout "LIAR! EVIL!"

My criticism is that a movement you've aligned myself with is one that will predictably work to the benefit of evil liars. And has indeed done so.

I'm not guilting you, it's not about discrediting you personally. It's about discrediting a movement that is indirectly hurting our country. By reinforcing our indifference to problems, and by giving people trite excuses for ignoring those problems.
"The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less." Not my circus, not my monkeys. (Not my country, while we're at it. Damn Canadians, influencing the election again.)
There's a difference between having "metabolizes sugar" in common with Hitler, and going around with a Mein Kampf quote on your T-shirt.
Well, if we're being picky, that's not a Vox Day quote. It's a bastardized riff on Cato the Elder, which (to the best of my knowledge) has nothing directly to do with Vox Day. The linked article is by Vox, but conflating that with supporting his lunatic political views is like saying that if I use a particular Linux filesystem, then I support domestic violence and murder.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Wild Zontargs »

Simon_Jester wrote:See the thing is, the alt-right and the associated organizations kind of do have a semi-centralized power structure. It's not 100% centralized but some central directing intelligences exist. Fox News is one of the obvious ones.
Dude, if you think Fox News is alt-right, either you're using the nebulous, everyone-I-don't-like categorization or you have no idea just how deep that rabbit hole goes. "Moderate" alt-right ideas won't get anywhere near a TV network.
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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Raw Shark »

This whole election is where everybody reasonable enough to even vote just lost it. Fuck 2016.

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Re: 2016 US ELECTION: Official Results Thread

Post by Channel72 »

Simon Jester wrote:The issue isn't people so on the fence that one imperfect victim jeopardizes the movement. It's that if we wind up publicizing five victims and three or four cases out of five turn out to simply not be what we painted them as, that can add up to discrediting the movement in the eyes of people who really are sincerely trying to be intellectually honest and listen to us.
Hmm... conceptually I have a serious problem with founding movements around particular ad-hoc incidents. If you're basing a general movement around one particular guy who got screwed over in some way, you're risking a lot of credibility because in many cases there are a lot of gray areas and case-specific details are often unclear and messy. This has been a consistent weak point with movements like Black Lives Matter, and in general with the media's tendency to push "narratives" based around a particular case study rather than actual statistics. Obviously, a particular case study is useful as a framing device, and also because human beings are naturally more inclined to care about individuals, but it inevitably results in a breakdown of logic when the movement's defenders end up actually having to defend the details of a particular case, rather than the issues at hand. It shouldn't matter if Michael Brown turns out to be a serial killer who tortures kittens for fun, what matters is there's a statistically relevant trend of black people being disproportionately targeted by the cops.

Secondly, what this election cycle showed me is that the left does in fact tend to get hysterical over the wrong details, which in turn seriously erodes their credibility on the issues that matter. The thing that really struck a chord with me this election cycle was Steve K. mother-fucking Bannon. The guy is obviously a total piece of shit. But what scared me personally was when mainstream outlets like CNN and MSNBC were constantly running pieces about his anti-Semitism. That was actually a scary moment for me. I'm Jewish, and I've always felt very safe and welcome in the United States (or at least, in the Northeast) - I've always felt fortunate enough to be a very privileged minority, to the extent that I never really felt threatened by any particular anti-Semitic event that happened, because I always felt that society at-large was on my side. But then I heard that the Chief Strategist of the President Elect is anti-Semitic?? Uh oh...

Except it turns out he's just not. Or even if he is, the evidence is absurdly flimsy and contradicted by other overwhelming evidence. He's a total piece of shit, yeah, who peddles alt-right nationalist garbage, but he's no Goebbels. The evidence of his anti-Semitism was basically a mildly offensive comment he allegedly said, based on second-hand testimony from his ex-wife, made during divorce proceedings. But a quick glance at Breitbart.com's home page indicates that not only is his stupid website supportive of Israel, they have an entire section devoted to pro-Israel propaganda, and many of the writers working for Breitbart.com are right-wing pro-Israeli Netanyahu mouthpieces. Clearly, this guy is basically the opposite of anti-Semitism. Then there's the fact that Donald Trump's own son-in-law is an orthodox Jew, and clearly this guy has significant influence on the behind-the-scenes machinations of the Trump Administration.

Whatever. The point is, fuck Steve Bannon. But let's please, please respect the actual facts here. The mainstream, so-called "liberal" media repeated and repeated the claim that Steven Bannon was anti-Semitic, because it was a nice convenient, juicy cherry on top of the whole "Trump is an evil racist" narrative. It was only a matter of time before people on the right easily refuted these claims, making the left look ridiculous and histrionic, and doing serious damage to actual fact-based journalistic pieces about potentially racist elements in the Trump administration, such as Jeff Sessions.

The left already has the facts on their side. So why the fuck are we resorting to this stuff?
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