Palin Discussion [split]

[CaptainChewbacca]

Link

Link to a pic that says it all.

Did Colbert call it? That kicks ass.

[SirNitram]

Link

Link to a pic that says it all.

Did Colbert call it? That kicks ass.

No, yours truly called it. I just use that pic for when I call something.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Link

Link to a pic that says it all.

Did Colbert call it? That kicks ass.

No, yours truly called it. I just use that pic for when I call something.

Nicely done. I suspected, but didn't have the conviction to call anything.

[Big Phil]

I've been watching MSNBC for the last three hours, and it's interesting how everyone is approaching it. It seems to me the best thing the Democrats could do for the next few days is shut the hell up and stop trying to criticize Sarah Palin. They're stumbling over themselves without a coherent message; one criticizes her judgment, another her inexperience, a third her policy positions, and a fourth mentioning the scandals.

Democrats should shut up, congratulate Palin on the nomination, and then continue hammering McCain for his poor judgment, terrible policy positions, and lack of understanding of the economy. In other words, quietly ignore Sarah Palin and focus on McCain.

[Guardsman Bass]

Why? Palin is a huge weakness, and a cynical choice. Sure, she's clean, but it's not as if Republicans claiming to clean up Washington are in short supply (McCain says similar stuff with the "get rid of pork barrel spending" quips). She's not exactly a major help with the Executive Branch, seeing as how she's been a governor for what, less than two years (of a highly irregular state)?

I think it's telling that Obama at least picked someone who can cover his weaknesses when and if he's actually in office, someone with a specialty where he lacks and knowledge where he has only inexperience (in the Legislature). What does Palin bring to the campaign that isn't a Campaign Prop? How do you expect her to govern, right-wing fanatic that she is, if McCain were to drop dead in his first term (unlikely, but possible)?

[Pablo Sanchez]

What does Palin bring to the campaign that isn't a Campaign Prop? How do you expect her to govern, right-wing fanatic that she is, if McCain were to drop dead in his first term (unlikely, but possible)?

My problem with the idea of her potentially becoming president is not just that she is a right-wing ideologue, but also she appears to be essentially uninformed and un-curious about affairs outside of Alaska.

Her experience prior to becoming governor was limited to the city of Wasilla, where she had been on the city council and then mayor. Wasilla had a population of just over 5,000 at this time, and her Wiki says that she pretty much ran the city into the ground and left them with a huge budget shortfall due to sweeping property tax reductions and an astoundingly bad real-estate call on a sports facility. She also evidently fired the police chief for purely political reasons, but in spite of the ethical problem Alaskan state law says that executives like mayors and governors can fire officials whenever they feel like it. So I think we can say that she has a pattern of firing people for displeasing her.

Then she got elected Governor by an anti-corruption appeal in 2006, and since being announced as the VP pick she has revealed that she doesn't really know what a Vice President does, and that she is basically uninterested in affairs outside Alaska. To say that she is an inexperienced policy lightweight is a huge understatement. Can she locate Iraq on a map? I wouldn't be at all surprised if the answer was no.

I can't even imagine how bad the VP debates are going to be, matching her against Biden.

[Duckie]

What does Palin bring to the campaign that isn't a Campaign Prop? How do you expect her to govern, right-wing fanatic that she is, if McCain were to drop dead in his first term (unlikely, but possible)?

I can't even imagine how bad the VP debates are going to be, matching her against Biden.

The problem is that Biden won't go after a woman as heavily, and even if he does he could be tarred and feathered for sexism (even though criticising him for being mean to a female candidate is the very definition of sexism).

[Duckie]

Ghetto Edit- if you look at the timeline of how she was picked and the media circus, I think even Palin herself was surprised at the choice. Maybe the emergency flight to Ohio was a fakeout meant to make the media think it was Pawlenty or Romney, but maybe she just didn't know.

Think about it. McCain is arguing with his advisors- he wants Lieberman, but the advisors want him to pick Romney, who will shore up his base and debate at least slightly well.

All the sudden, Obama's speech happens. You know what I would think? Oh shit, damage control time. That's what I'd think. Palin was probably an emergency 'bipartisan appeal + base shoreup bounce' pick that isn't expected to do anything except put a damper on Obama. She's a distraction, not an active campaigner. Hell, she's already distracted the Obama campaign.

It's also a red flag to wave in front of the Democrats- if they criticise her in the wrong way, it could come back to bite them.

A bad nomination, but an understandable one. Also, I think each candidate unconsciously picked a charicature of their opponent.

Obama chose a grumpy old white man who talks tough.
McCain chose a nobody who is an enthusiastic blank slate minority, but has no experience or ability to govern.

[Patrick Degan]

What does Palin bring to the campaign that isn't a Campaign Prop? How do you expect her to govern, right-wing fanatic that she is, if McCain were to drop dead in his first term (unlikely, but possible)?

I can't even imagine how bad the VP debates are going to be, matching her against Biden.

The problem is that Biden won't go after a woman as heavily, and even if he does he could be tarred and feathered for sexism (even though criticising him for being mean to a female candidate is the very definition of sexism).

Then the counter to that is to talk around her. Palin is nothing but a prop, a trophy-veep, but the main object is always the Gimp. Were I the adviser to Biden, I'd tell him to essentially bypass Vice-Presidential Barbie and make the Gimp the issue of every answer in the debate coming up. Same with Obama. Ignore Palin and go right for McCain, since it's the top dog on which the ticket will stand or fall. Show her up as irrelevant instead of attacking her directly. Played right, she could be goaded into insisting that she be taken seriously and if she gets to whining about it, that finishes Palin.

On another front, I'd have them give a backhanded-congratulations to the Republicans for finally catching up to the year 1984, when the Democrats first named a woman as running mate on a presidential ticket.

[Enigma]

But wouldn't ignoring Palin only make the Republicans accuse Obama\Biden by saying that they are avoiding challenging\debating a woman?

[Eframepilot]

Here's the deal about the veep debate: It doesn't matter. Nobody cares about it. Nobody makes up their minds on who to vote for because of it. This veep debate will be particularly meaningless since the expectations for Palin will be SO low that... well, frankly, it doesn't matter, except as one more issue for the 24-hour media to obsess over and then promptly forget about once it passes.

This was just McCain's way of proving that he is still a maverick since he couldn't pick his real first choice for obvious reasons. And strategically he has shot himself in the foot by choosing a running mate with LESS foreign policy experience than Obama, which will make him and the Republicans look like giant hypocrites if they try to use the "Obama is weak on national security" line again. That was the Republicans' strongest card and McCain threw it away. If national security is so vital, McCain (who is no spring chicken and needs a strong VP more than any candidate in recent memory) should have chosen someone like Tom Ridge who supposedly has experience in it. But instead he chooses Palin?! Well it looks like national security isn't so important after all!

All Obama and the Democrats have to do is ignore Palin (maybe sending surrogates to attack her many flaws on the sly) and then bring her up as the perfect counter to the national security issue.

[Simplicius]

Interesting that this ticket seems very much the opposite of the Bush-Cheney relationship. I wonder if the mere (hypothetical) fact of having this nobody Palin as VP would roll back some of the power that's accumulated around the office of the vice president in the past several years.

[Eframepilot]

The vice presidential office only has excessive power now because Bush has delegated so much of it. It's going to deflate back to normal no matter who wins. Biden will not be some mysterious 4th branch that is a superposition of the executive and legislative branches unto himself, either.

[Coyote]

Here's the deal about the veep debate: It doesn't matter. Nobody cares about it. Nobody makes up their minds on who to vote for because of it. This veep debate will be particularly meaningless since the expectations for Palin will be SO low that... well, frankly, it doesn't matter, except as one more issue for the 24-hour media to obsess over and then promptly forget about once it passes.

Except, as you point out in the rest of your post, you state the obvious-- McCain could keel over any moment. People dissed Ronald Reagan when he ran, and won, as the oldest President at the time-- and he was 68. Now here's a 72 year old geezer with cancer-- his VP pick is very, very important... and let's face it, he picked a boutique candidate, a hood ornament to say "look, see, change! Newness and different! I'm not crusty and set in my ways, I'm dynamic!"

The problem with picking another white dude is that it becomes the Old Men tickets vs. Obama. McCain perceived the need for either a non-white, or a female, to counterbalance Obama's "Change" meme. All well and good, I can see the thinking in that-- but McCain had his pick of a number of very qualified candidates for VP that would have done him no harm at all-- Colin Powell (a long shot, but maybe) or Kansas Governor Kay Bailey Hutchinson were both good prospects. He passed them up for a total freshman.

Jindal was a no-pick, he's too inexperienced (barely started serving his first term in Louisiana) and ordinarily, Condi Rice would be a great choice (brilliant, experienced, and of course the old black female one-two combo) but her lifestyle would not stand up to scrutiny; there is speculation she is a closeted lesbian and the press would be all over her, and her secrets would come out (which I think would be a good catharsis for the Repubs, but, let's not expect miracles here).

Even the Mormon, Mitt Romney, would have had a little bit of an "edgy" factor, but this whole thing of picking Palin smacks of desperation: gotta look young and dynamic! Gotta rake in the women voters! So he picks Political Barbie for his running mate.

And so, when "President McCain" keels over after a year in office, we can go to a summit meeting with Count Vladimir Von Putin squaring off against... Legally Blonde.

Snaps for learning Russian!

[The Original Nex]

Nitpick Coyote:

Kay Baily Hutchinson is the Senior Senator from Texas; Kathleen Sebelius is the Governor of Kansas, and a Democrat.

[Patrick Degan]

This was just McCain's way of proving that he is still a maverick since he couldn't pick his real first choice for obvious reasons. And strategically he has shot himself in the foot by choosing a running mate with LESS foreign policy experience than Obama, which will make him and the Republicans look like giant hypocrites if they try to use the "Obama is weak on national security" line again. That was the Republicans' strongest card and McCain threw it away. If national security is so vital, McCain (who is no spring chicken and needs a strong VP more than any candidate in recent memory) should have chosen someone like Tom Ridge who supposedly has experience in it. But instead he chooses Palin?! Well it looks like national security isn't so important after all!

All Obama and the Democrats have to do is ignore Palin (maybe sending surrogates to attack her many flaws on the sly) and then bring her up as the perfect counter to the national security issue.

Indeed. However, the best method of attack in this instance would be indirect. In order to slide Vice-Presidential Barbie into irrelevancy, Obama needs only to keep repeating the message that the choice of running mate is a serious one with the stakes so high, and that Joe Biden brings years of experience with foreign policy to aid the future administration. And leave it at that. Never mention Palin's name. It's not even necessary for surrogates from the campaign to do any attacking, as she's going to be the lead-off joke for David Letterman, Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, and Conan O'Brian every night from now 'till the 4th of November. Just leave the Gimp to twist in the wind having to defend his choice at every turn and by implication play the lack-of-judgement card against him. Make Palin, by ignoring her, become more pathetic as she tries to argue for her own relevance to anything.

[Fire Fly]

I don't know if I should laugh or be afraid. If McCain wins and croaks, this is the person who will be Commander in Chief? Someone who ran a city into the ground, has not offered any significant economic and foreign policy opinions, is probably a fundamentalist, has no idea what a VP does, and is a total nobody to the nation at large. At least with Romney, he had an impressive résumé and while a douche bag, proved himself capable.

[Rawtooth]

Fucking hell, I'm going to be hearing about this every day until long after the election is over.

[KlavoHunter]

Fucking hell, I'm going to be hearing about this every day until long after the election is over.

Oh, now you know how I've felt since mid-2007.

[Guardsman Bass]

Fucking hell, I'm going to be hearing about this every day until long after the election is over.

Seeing as you're actually Alaskan, what's your opinion of Sarah Palin from when she was/is governor? Did you pay attention, not particularly give a shit, etc.?

[Jaevric]

You know, I almost feel bad for Palin. Knowing you're being used as a symbol in order to distract people from the Old White Men, not because you're actually competent for the position you're being shoved into?

Though of course, I don't know her; that may not bother her at all. And the very real possibility of McCain dying in office and leaving her as President is probably appealing, though horrifying.

I realize there are women voters who just want a female President in office, but doesn't it occur to them the long-term damage they could do to their cause if the first woman President turns out to be completely unqualified, incompetent, or both? Nothing's going to make it harder to elect a woman as President than having Palin get into the office if McCain were to die, then completely screw things up.

[RedImperator]

What does Palin bring to the campaign that isn't a Campaign Prop? How do you expect her to govern, right-wing fanatic that she is, if McCain were to drop dead in his first term (unlikely, but possible)?

I can't even imagine how bad the VP debates are going to be, matching her against Biden.

The problem is that Biden won't go after a woman as heavily, and even if he does he could be tarred and feathered for sexism (even though criticising him for being mean to a female candidate is the very definition of sexism).

Why? It wasn't as if Biden was going to go all SDN on Romney or Pawlenty. He might be a little more polite to Palin, but he'll still going to show, on issue after issue, that he knows what he's talking about, and that Obama's solutions to America's problems are better than McSame's. Unless Palin has some debating talent she hasn't revealed before and is a quick study, she's going to lose badly.

Sleeping on this decision hasn't made it seem any better. If the idea was to win women's votes, why would you pick a woman who is overwhelmingly pro-life, who will draw attention (finally) to the fact that McCain is overwhelmingly pro-life? Yeah, she'll win the PUMAs, but they were voting for McCain anyway. I don't see how she does anything but hurt McCain amongst moderates and independents, once the excitement settles down. She undermines the strongest argument McCain had going: experience. If experience matters so much, why did a 72 year old man with multiple bouts of malignant melanoma pick a VP who is significantly less qualified than Obama to be president? She doesn't bring in a state or a region (well, Alaska is locked up, but that's three lousy electoral votes). The only thing she does for sure is shore up the base, and if you're shoring up your base going into the convention, in an election where you need to appeal beyond the base to win, you're in serious trouble.

[Patrick Degan]

Sleeping on this decision hasn't made it seem any better. If the idea was to win women's votes, why would you pick a woman who is overwhelmingly pro-life, who will draw attention (finally) to the fact that McCain is overwhelmingly pro-life? Yeah, she'll win the PUMAs, but they were voting for McCain anyway. I don't see how she does anything but hurt McCain amongst moderates and independents, once the excitement settles down. She undermines the strongest argument McCain had going: experience. If experience matters so much, why did a 72 year old man with multiple bouts of malignant melanoma pick a VP who is significantly less qualified than Obama to be president? She doesn't bring in a state or a region (well, Alaska is locked up, but that's three lousy electoral votes). The only thing she does for sure is shore up the base, and if you're shoring up your base going into the convention, in an election where you need to appeal beyond the base to win, you're in serious trouble.

One observation in the course of this thread offered the theory that Vice-Presidential Barbie was about the only choice available that wouldn't split the party. Whether that might or might not happen anyway is anybody's guess. But this pick simply stinks of desperation.

[Ender]

Let's see, we have a gruff, short-fused, warmongering military man who was at one point a prisoner of war and a woman whose last political position was some bullshit job a trained monkey could do who only got the job because there was no one else to give it to.

Of course, this means we can start calling him Barack Adama.

[Coyote]

Fucking hell, I'm going to be hearing about this every day until long after the election is over.

Oh, the news in Idaho is all a-twitter, too. Apparently she was born in Sandpoint and attended University of Idaho in Moscow, where she graduated in (I believe) Journalism.

The news channels here can't stop gushing about her.