Israel orders mass 'evacuation' from Northern Gaza, humanitarian crisis certain to ensue

[Ralin]

My understanding is that it's not that hard to design the tunnels to make gas largely ineffective if you know what you're doing, and Hamas does know what they're doing. Not sure how much that's true with flooding them, but seems like that would be more of a serious inconvenience than a hard counter.

[Solauren]

When the tunnels are half full, flood in enough gas to make a 1 inch layer on the sea water, then light it.

[LadyTevar]

There's already pushback against the flooding, people declaring this will damage aquifers and other clean water sources. One commenter stated it "would cause localized quakes".

Not sure how much of that is truth.

And Solauren? You're evil.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

There's already pushback against the flooding, people declaring this will damage aquifers and other clean water sources. One commenter stated it "would cause localized quakes".

Not sure how much of that is truth.

And Solauren? You're evil.

If anything, that's only going to encourage Israel to proceed. Anything that denies clean fresh water to Hamas and causes more tunnels to collapse can only further their objectives.

[Elfdart]

Claims HAMAS planned and used "Systematic Rape and Murder" during Oct 7th Attacks

Posted without comment.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the Hamas fighters raped Israelis during the Oct 7th raid. After all, if you're willing to blow unarmed people apart with guns and explosives, other violent acts are on the menu, too.

That said, the non-stop barrage of lies from Israel and their camp followers is flooding the media like the sewage and seawater the IDF has pumped into the tunnels under Gaza, only this batch of untreated excrement is filthier and will cause the deaths of more Palestinian civilians than the pathogens in the brine and the shit. The article you link to quotes one Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy as a "legal expert". Her areas of "expertise" consist of drawing up legal memos justifying the torture and force-feeding of prison inmates on hunger strike and posting photographs of Kurdish women murdered and raped by Salafi Jihadists (ISIS/Al Qaeda/Al Nusra) in Syria -claiming these Kurdish victims from several years ago are actually Israeli women raped and killed two months ago.

But why trot out dubiously sourced accusations of rape?

RANTAGE REMOVED DUE TO RACISM AND BREAKING IVP. --LadyTevar

[KraytKing]

There's already pushback against the flooding, people declaring this will damage aquifers and other clean water sources. One commenter stated it "would cause localized quakes".

Not sure how much of that is truth.

And Solauren? You're evil.

Nah, just ineffective. As far as I know, the cheapest way to proof a tunnel against gas is a water trap, so adding more water isn't going to make it any easier for a flammable or poisonous gas to infiltrate. Additionally, once a tunnel is half full with water, you can call it a day. Ain't nobody gonna use that for logistics anymore.

[Ralin]

There's already pushback against the flooding, people declaring this will damage aquifers and other clean water sources. One commenter stated it "would cause localized quakes".

Not sure how much of that is truth.

And Solauren? You're evil.

Nah, just ineffective. As far as I know, the cheapest way to proof a tunnel against gas is a water trap, so adding more water isn't going to make it any easier for a flammable or poisonous gas to infiltrate.

Isn't that just like pouring in napalm with extra steps?

Additionally, once a tunnel is half full with water, you can call it a day. Ain't nobody gonna use that for logistics anymore.

Unless they're really desperate/determined.

[Broomstick]

When the tunnels are half full, flood in enough gas to make a 1 inch layer on the sea water, then light it.

Don't be a goddamned sadistic fuck.

[Broomstick]

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the Hamas fighters raped Israelis during the Oct 7th raid.

Given the nature of war of course there were rapes. The only questions are the number of victims and how violent the rapes were. Anyone asserting no rapes occur in a war are full of shit.

[Ralin]

Given the nature of war of course there were rapes. The only questions are the number of victims and how violent the rapes were. Anyone asserting no rapes occur in a war are full of shit.

And how much of it was ordered/allowed by their leaders.

[LadyTevar]

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the Hamas fighters raped Israelis during the Oct 7th raid. After all, if you're willing to blow unarmed people apart with guns and explosives, other violent acts are on the menu, too.

That said, the non-stop barrage of lies from Israel and their camp followers is flooding the media like the sewage and seawater the IDF has pumped into the tunnels under Gaza, only this batch of untreated excrement is filthier and will cause the deaths of more Palestinian civilians than the pathogens in the brine and the shit. The article you link to quotes one Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy as a "legal expert". Her areas of "expertise" consist of drawing up legal memos justifying the torture and force-feeding of prison inmates on hunger strike and posting photographs of Kurdish women murdered and raped by Salafi Jihadists (ISIS/Al Qaeda/Al Nusra) in Syria -claiming these Kurdish victims from several years ago are actually Israeli women raped and killed two months ago.

Ok Elfdart... this part was informative. It gave some context to the person quoted in the article.

But why trot out dubiously sourced accusations of rape? ((SNIP))

But THIS PART was inflamatory, and crossed the line for IVP. As such I've removed it from your post, and I suggest you take a moment before you post anything like it again in this thread.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

When the tunnels are half full, flood in enough gas to make a 1 inch layer on the sea water, then light it.

Don't be a goddamned sadistic fuck.

Yeah! That's Shep's job!

[Solauren]

When the tunnels are half full, flood in enough gas to make a 1 inch layer on the sea water, then light it.

Don't be a goddamned sadistic fuck.

That's not me being sadistic.

Actually, I was discussing legitimate tactics. By the time the tunnels are half full, they're not usable.
Oil fire on it would just generate a ton of smoke that could be used to find hidden entrances and exits to them (in theory).

[Crazedwraith]

US Vetos UN Call for Ceasefire

The United States has vetoed a United Nations (UN) resolution backed by the vast majority of the Security Council demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

The final vote is 13 members for, one abstention by the UK and one vote against - meaning the resolution has failed.

The US, a permanent member of the UN Security Council, is the sole nation to have voted against the ceasefire.

Robert Wood, the US deputy ambassador, was critical of colleagues for introducing a “flawed” resolution that did not include the condemnation of Hamas for their attacks on October 7.

“For that reason, while the United States strongly supports a durable peace, in which both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and security, we do not support calls for an immediate cease-fire,” Mr Wood said.

Meanwhile the UK, an ally of the US, abstained in the vote.

The UK's representative said it could not "vote in favour of a resolution that does not condemn the atrocities Hamas committed" against Israelis.

"Israel needs to be able to address the threat posed by Hamas," the representative added.

The council first called the emergency meeting to hear from UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, who for the first time invoked Article 99 of the UN Charter, which enables a UN chief to raise threats he sees to international peace and security.

He warned of an “humanitarian catastrophe” in Gaza and urged the council to demand a humanitarian cease-fire.

Gaza is at “a breaking point,” he said, and desperate people are at serious risk of starvation.

Guterres said Hamas’ brutality against Israelis on October 7 “can never justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people”.

Israel’s more than two-month military campaign has killed more than 17,400 people in Gaza - 70% of them women and children - and wounded more than 46,000, according to the Palestinian territory’s Health Ministry.

The ministry does not differentiate between civilian and combatant deaths.

Meanwhile, at least 130 hostages are still being held by Hamas in Gaza, as the families of the captives continue to call on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for help in their recovery.

A Palestinian representative at the meeting said it was "a terrible day for the security council", adding that "humanity must prevail".

"Children will be killed, orphaned, wounded, disabled for life," he said.

"Not by mistake, but by design, because the killers have no regard whatsoever for Palestinian life, from the cradle to the grave and beyond," he added.

Because of course they have. Aren't vetoes fucking great?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

US Vetos UN Call for Ceasefire

The United States has vetoed a United Nations (UN) resolution backed by the vast majority of the Security Council demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

The final vote is 13 members for, one abstention by the UK and one vote against - meaning the resolution has failed.

The US, a permanent member of the UN Security Council, is the sole nation to have voted against the ceasefire.

Robert Wood, the US deputy ambassador, was critical of colleagues for introducing a “flawed” resolution that did not include the condemnation of Hamas for their attacks on October 7.

“For that reason, while the United States strongly supports a durable peace, in which both Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and security, we do not support calls for an immediate cease-fire,” Mr Wood said.

Meanwhile the UK, an ally of the US, abstained in the vote.

The UK's representative said it could not "vote in favour of a resolution that does not condemn the atrocities Hamas committed" against Israelis.

"Israel needs to be able to address the threat posed by Hamas," the representative added.

The council first called the emergency meeting to hear from UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, who for the first time invoked Article 99 of the UN Charter, which enables a UN chief to raise threats he sees to international peace and security.

He warned of an “humanitarian catastrophe” in Gaza and urged the council to demand a humanitarian cease-fire.

Gaza is at “a breaking point,” he said, and desperate people are at serious risk of starvation.

Guterres said Hamas’ brutality against Israelis on October 7 “can never justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people”.

Israel’s more than two-month military campaign has killed more than 17,400 people in Gaza - 70% of them women and children - and wounded more than 46,000, according to the Palestinian territory’s Health Ministry.

The ministry does not differentiate between civilian and combatant deaths.

Meanwhile, at least 130 hostages are still being held by Hamas in Gaza, as the families of the captives continue to call on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for help in their recovery.

A Palestinian representative at the meeting said it was "a terrible day for the security council", adding that "humanity must prevail".

"Children will be killed, orphaned, wounded, disabled for life," he said.

"Not by mistake, but by design, because the killers have no regard whatsoever for Palestinian life, from the cradle to the grave and beyond," he added.

Because of course they have. Aren't vetoes fucking great?

Just ask Russia

[LadyTevar]

Dammit. We should have and could have just abstained.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Even if it had passed, there's no guarantee that Israel wouldn't simply ignore it.

[Ralin]

Dammit. We should have and could have just abstained.

But our president supports the ethnic cleansing and collective punishment, so we vetoed it.

[Formless]

And this is what is structurally wrong with the UN. First, the only reason that there are any permanent members of the security council at all is because they are the powers that fought and won WWII. But what does that have to do with the here and now, and how did no one realize that was going to bite the UN in the ass decades later? Second, even the US constitution has a clause that the Presidential veto can be overridden by Congress through a large enough vote. How did no one realize that the UN member states need a similar "override the goddamn US" power if the overwhelming majority of the nations of the world think that their reasoning is fucking stupid?

[bilateralrope]

When the tunnels are half full, flood in enough gas to make a 1 inch layer on the sea water, then light it.

Don't be a goddamned sadistic fuck.

That's not me being sadistic.

Actually, I was discussing legitimate tactics. By the time the tunnels are half full, they're not usable.
Oil fire on it would just generate a ton of smoke that could be used to find hidden entrances and exits to them (in theory).

What about the risk of the smoke, or the fire, spreading into a building occupied by civilians ?

How do those hidden entrances and exits matter when the tunnels are flooded ?

Flooding the tunnels I can see as a legitimate strategy, as it denies them to the enemy and I'm not aware of any civilians using them.

Flooding them with sewage or making a fire spread through them just screams that you want to cause civilian casualties.

[Ralin]

And this is what is structurally wrong with the UN. First, the only reason that there are any permanent members of the security council at all is because they are the powers that fought and won WWII. But what does that have to do with the here and now, and how did no one realize that was going to bite the UN in the ass decades later? Second, even the US constitution has a clause that the Presidential veto can be overridden by Congress through a large enough vote. How did no one realize that the UN member states need a similar "override the goddamn US" power if the overwhelming majority of the nations of the world think that their reasoning is fucking stupid?

They realized that it was much more important to give the US an "Override everyone else in the UN" power because they remembered how the last attempt to create something like the UN worked out. The Security Council permanent members are the powers that fought and won WWII, and also prime examples of countries that the UN can't do much to punish or compel. If the UN ever ends up in direct opposition to the US because nearly everyone else in the UN wants something done the US will win because there is no UN army to force the issue. And the same is true of China and the Soviet Union/now Russia. The UK and France somewhat less so I'll grant, but it's still a pretty good start on listing the countries that the UN needs to never directly oppose if it wants to go from often or usually toothless and ineffective to completely toothless and ineffective.

[Formless]

Counterpoint: why then should it exist if it concedes all real power to the de-facto empires that just so happened to create it in the first place? Remember that at the time it was created, the UK literally still held colonies abroad! Since 90% of all actually important issues that the UN involves itself in inevitably involves one or more of the permanent Security Council members, its pretty much impossible for the UN to get anything done as long as all of them have a veto power with no checks or balances involved. Its just as crippled as the League of Nations, and even in the same way-- the League couldn't stop member nations from committing atrocities, and everyone backed out when they realized that it wasn't accomplishing the number one thing they signed up for. Name one war the UN has actually stopped in the last 20 years. Name on thing they have done to promote world peace that has actually worked. And then tell me that the problem isn't the fact that the Security Council is full of the very nations that are starting the most notable of those wars.

[Ralin]

Counterpoint: why then should it exist if it concedes all real power to the de-facto empires that just so happened to create it in the first place?

Because it doesn't concede all real power to them. The UN as a collective entity has some, not a lot but some, power independent of them.

Since 90% of all actually important issues that the UN involves itself in inevitably involves one or more of the permanent Security Council members, its pretty much impossible for the UN to get anything done as long as all of them have a veto power with no checks or balances involved.

It's not just as crippled. It means that they have to step very carefully and negotiate on those issues and recognize they have a limited ability to do anything about them. The difference is that all of the major powers are still members and pay at least some attention to working with the UN instead of the no attention they would be otherwise.

Name one war the UN has actually stopped in the last 20 years. Name on thing they have done to promote world peace that has actually worked.

I think it's hard to give a tangible answer to that.

And then tell me that the problem isn't the fact that the Security Council is full of the very nations that are starting the most notable of those wars.

That isn't the problem. Because those countries would be doing much the same thing anyway. So worst case same result, best case slightly better result. And maybe it can be the framework for something more effective in the future. Do you think anyone would be rushing to Gaza's rescue right now and duking it out with the US's carrier group in the area if the UN didn't exist?

Are you saying that something like the UN or League of Nations flat out shouldn't be attempted until a version of it powerful enough to smack America and other peers into cooperating can be created? Because that seems to be the alternative.

[AniThyng]

Doesn't it boil down to the point of the UN security council is not total world peace, but avoiding a world war. Everything else is secondary to that.

[Ralin]

Doesn't it boil down to the point of the UN security council is not total world peace, but avoiding a world war. Everything else is secondary to that.

Yeah. And if they can lead the effort to wipe out smallpox and organize enough influence to stop some slaughters in Bosnia or wherever that's nice too. I don't think most people (and national governments) actually want them to have the amount of power it would take to force America or Russia to do things.