Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by K. A. Pital » 2018-10-17 12:48pm

aerius wrote:
2018-10-13 08:56pm
You obviously have no fucking clue on the history of US-Saudi relations (I'm not surprised, you're fucking clueless on damn near everything). Newsflash, the US has been happily selling them weapons for the last 60 years so that they can oppress their own people and wage proxy wars on all their neighbours. Not to mention funding radical fundamentalist terrorist groups. Saudis beheading foreign journalists is about as routine as people being killed by drunk drivers. The US government turning a blind eye to Saudi atrocities while selling them weapons and giving them oil money has been standard operating procedure since before I was born.
Thanks. I was about to post something like that. Now I no longer need to.

I would advise people who like KSA and think MBS is a "reformer" to have a look around the internet and find the popular screenshots of those memetic tweets - the ones with the history of press coverage of US-Saudi relations since after WWII.

Enlightening.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-10-17 02:27pm

Beowulf wrote:
2018-10-17 09:53am
Ralin wrote:
2018-10-16 05:57pm
Beowulf wrote:
2018-10-16 11:33am
He was a permanent resident of the United States.
And I'm a US citizen. If I commit a crime while I'm in China America doesn't get a say in how I'm punished, much less if I manage to offend the government so badly that they skip ahead to grabbing and killing me.
But he didn't commit a crime in KSA. And the expectation is that the government will do what it can in order to mitigate your punishment. I mean, if you kill someone, yeah, America probably won't do much. Get caught stealing a propaganda poster? Maybe just getting deported to never visit again will be good enough.
(bolding mine)

That's what it comes down to. He wrote nasty-grams about the rulers of the KSA for an American newspaper. I'm sure the Saudis didn't appreciate it, but it's really not their business what an American newspaper wants and can publish, or who they hire to write said stories. In fact, regardless of whether publishing nastygrams about the KSA is illegal within the KSA, the guy didn't do it there, so... tough luck.

Next I suppose you'll be defending North Korea if Kim Jong Un has a Korean citizen executed for flipping the bird at a poster of KJU in Canada.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-10-17 06:58pm

Sure, bombing in Syria predated Dickless Donald. This in no way changes the fact that he continued it, so to portray him as non-interventionist is disingenuous.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Elfdart » 2018-10-17 09:24pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-10-13 07:21pm
Trump is probably glad the Saudis murdered a Washington Post journalist, and is wondering if he can get away with doing the same.
Apparently, Kashoggi got on the Prince's shit list, not for criticizing the Saudi monarchy, but for criticizing Cheeto Mussolini:

The Independent
A Saudi Arabian journalist and commentator has been banned by his country for criticising US President-elect Donald Trump.

Jamal Khashoggi has been banned from writing in newspapers, making TV appearances and attending conferences, Middle East Eye reports.

After Mr Khashoggi criticised Mr Trump's Middle East policies at a Washington think-tank on 10 November, an official Saudi spokesman said he did not represent the Kingdom in a statement to the Saudi Press Agency.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-10-17 09:37pm

Which raises the possibility, given their close business ties, that this man (a US resident) was tortured and murdered as a favor to Der Fuhrer. And certainly makes Trump's excuses for the Saudis and lack of action all the more despicable.

I've been half-expecting Trump to start killing US journalists. I hadn't expected it this soon.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Solauren » 2018-10-17 09:51pm

It's also possible that Turkey and Saudi killed this man hoping to make points with Trump, without Trump being involved.

I'm not sure what would be worse.
Trump not caring because the guy was not a (born) U.S Citizen
Trump asking the Saudi's to remove this guy, so they did.
Saudi removing him because they didn't like him.,
Saudi killing him to curry favor with Trump, without Trump asking.

The last could start encouraging other places to pull stunts like this in hopes of getting on Trumps good side.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-10-17 10:00pm

Does it really matter whether Trump directly asked the Saudis to murder someone on his behalf, or simply labeled the press the enemy and then publicly had the murderers' backs after the fact? Either way, he's sending the message "If you kill reporters I don't like, I will defend you." Either way, this has gone way beyond the question of whether we should be involved in Saudi affairs, and has become a question of "Have we already become a dictatorship without realizing it?" Which leads to the second question: "If yes, what are we going to do about it?"

I think that if we lose in November, people need to take to the streets en mass and bring the country to a halt until Trump resigns or is removed. I'd want those protesters to be peaceful, not to provoke a clash, not to fire the first shot. But if attacked, they must stand their ground. Whatever the cost. Because we cannot wait another two years. If we can't win now, our position is only going to become weaker, and in two years we will likely have completed the transition to an authoritarian faux-democracy like Turkey or Russia.
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"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by aerius » 2018-10-17 10:55pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-10-17 10:00pm
Either way, this has gone way beyond the question of whether we should be involved in Saudi affairs, and has become a question of "Have we already become a dictatorship without realizing it?" Which leads to the second question: "If yes, what are we going to do about it?"
Welcome to the 21st century. Folks here such as Elfdart have been referring to the presidency as "The Bush Junta" among other things since you were in junior school. Glad you finally figured it out.
I think that if we lose in November, people need to take to the streets en mass and bring the country to a halt until Trump resigns or is removed. I'd want those protesters to be peaceful, not to provoke a clash, not to fire the first shot. But if attacked, they must stand their ground. Whatever the cost. Because we cannot wait another two years. If we can't win now, our position is only going to become weaker, and in two years we will likely have completed the transition to an authoritarian faux-democracy like Turkey or Russia.
It's not a matter of if you win or lose, the mass riots need to happen and continue happening until BOTH parties stop with their bullshit. So congratulations, the Dems win the midterms & the next presidential election, guess what, they'll still have the exact same relations with the KSA as the current administration. And that ain't gonna change unless the people riot and demand an end to it, the current setup is way too profitable & convenient for those in power, there's no way in hell they'll voluntarily end it.

You're not going to get a sane foreign policy, affordable healthcare, decent social security net or any of that stuff without extended mass protests and dead people. It's either that or a meteor hit on DC and every state legislature.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-10-17 11:07pm

And aerius trots out his obligatory "nothing has changed" line, coupled with a Both Sides narrative/false equivalency and followed by a call for people on the Left to initiate political violence (which the Alt. Reich dearly wants, as it would validate Trump's rhetoric about violent Left-wing mobs and give them a pretext to crack down in the name of "national security" that a lot of the centre and the armed forces/law enforcement would gladly go along with, if the Left was seen as the aggressor).

aerius should ask Vladimir Putin for a paycheque, he parrots his propaganda so perfectly. He is either a supremely stupid person, or a willing accomplice of fascism. At this point, I little care which, as the result is effectively the same.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Elfdart » 2018-10-19 11:43pm

Oh for fuck's sake Jan, cut the "Russia, Russia, RUSSIA!" bullshit already. It's not just tiresome, it's irrelevant to this thread.

Besides, if you and other self-appointed Palmer agents want to ferret out malign influence from a foreign country, try the tyrants who are the subject of this thread: the King of Saudi Arabia and his bloodthirsty dauphin. It was Saudi nationals who formed Al Qaeda and fund them to this day, and carried out the 9/11 attacks. It was the Saudi government that slashed oil prices in 2004 to help Joffrey W. Bush get elected and it's the Saudis who propped up Trump after his bankruptcy by buying/renting properties from him (including leasing two floors of Trump Tower) at absurd prices. And it's the Saudis who launched the current famine-genocide in Yemen and turned ISIS/Al Qaeda/Al Nusra loose on Syria.

The Saudis get away with this bullfuckery because they have had Uncle Sam's pecker in their pockets since the oil embargo of 1973-74.
aerius wrote:
2018-10-17 10:55pm
Welcome to the 21st century. Folks here such as Elfdart have been referring to the presidency as "The Bush Junta" among other things since you were in junior school. Glad you finally figured it out.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-10-19 11:48pm

Elfdart wrote:
2018-10-19 11:43pm
Oh for fuck's sake Jan, cut the "Russia, Russia, RUSSIA!" bullshit already. It's not just tiresome, it's irrelevant to this thread.
Jan?

Whether you or aerius are collusion deniers is indeed irrelevant to the topic of this thread. I only bring it up because aerius consistently posts in a style-reminiscent of Kremlin propaganda.
Besides, if you and other self-appointed Palmer agents want to ferret out malign influence from a foreign country, try the tyrants who are the subject of this thread: the King of Saudi Arabia and his bloodthirsty dauphin. It was Saudi nationals who formed Al Qaeda and fund them to this day, and carried out the 9/11 attacks. It was the Saudi government that slashed oil prices in 2004 to help Joffrey W. Bush get elected and it's the Saudis who propped up Trump after his bankruptcy by buying/renting properties from him (including leasing two floors of Trump Tower) at absurd prices. And it's the Saudis who launched the current famine-genocide in Yemen and turned ISIS/Al Qaeda/Al Nusra loose on Syria.

The Saudis get away with this bullfuckery because they have had Uncle Sam's pecker in their pockets since the oil embargo of 1973-74.
Um, what have I been doing this whole thread?

Oh, that's right, condemning the Saudis and the Trump regime's defense of them.
aerius wrote:
2018-10-17 10:55pm
There's always been a fascist streak in the American psyche.
In every country. Don't pretend the global neo-fascist movement is only an American problem.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2018-10-20 01:39am

Jan Brady, Rom. From the 70s sitcom "The Brady Bunch." Her famous line was whining about her older sister "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!"
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-20 03:16am

Aaaaaanyway, the Saudis now admit they killed him, but claim it was in a fight he started with consulate staff.
Jamal Khashoggi Died In Istanbul Consulate, Saudi State TV Reports

October 19, 20187:19 AM ET

Updated at 9:15 p.m. ET

Saudi Arabian officials confirmed the death of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who had been missing for 18 days, in a statement issued Saturday morning local time.

The statement, translated into English by the Saudi Press Agency, said a preliminary investigation into the events of Oct. 2 revealed that Khashoggi was killed in a fight that broke out while he was visiting the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul.

The meeting "developed in a negative way [that] led to a fight and a quarrel between some of them and the citizen / Jamal Khashoggi, yet the brawl aggravated to lead to his death and their attempt to conceal and cover what happened," the statement said.

The agency also confirmed that 18 Saudi nationals have been arrested "in preparation for reaching all the facts."

It's unclear whether those arrested include people previously reported to have been involved in the reporter's disappearance.

State media also reported that Gen. Ahmed al-Assiri, the deputy chief of general intelligence and an adviser to Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, has been dismissed.

While the investigation is ongoing, officials said, "The Kingdom expresses its deep regret at the painful developments that have taken place and stresses the commitment of the authorities in the Kingdom to bring them to justice."

Following the announcement the White House issued a statement saying:
"The United States acknowledges the announcement from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia that its investigation into the fate of Jamal Khashoggi is progressing and that it has taken action against the suspects it has identified thus far. We will continue to closely follow the international investigations into this tragic incident and advocate for justice that is timely, transparent, and in accordance with all due process. We are saddened to hear confirmation of Mr. Khashoggi's death, and we offer our deepest condolences to his family, fiancée, and friends."
At a roundtable with defense contractors Friday night at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, Trump called the Saudi announcement "a great first step," but reiterated that he didn't think sanctions for the journalist's death should affect U.S.-Saudi Arabia arms deals.

The fate of Khashoggi, a U.S. resident and critic of Saudi policy, had remained unclear more than two weeks after he vanished. The Turkish government had accused Saudi officials of murdering the journalist at the consulate, a charge the Saudis strongly and repeatedly had denied.

The Associated Press, citing an unnamed Turkish official, reported Friday that investigators there were looking into whether "the remains of ... Khashoggi may have been taken to a forest on the outskirts of Istanbul or to another city." The wire service added that according to the same official, "two vehicles belonging to the consulate left the building" the day the journalist disappeared.

Reuters reports that two Turkish officials say police were searching for remains in a "forest on the outskirts of Istanbul and a city near the Sea of Marmara."

The New York Times has reported that audio evidence from senior Turkish government officials suggests Khashoggi was tortured, murdered and dismembered by Saudi agents.

On Friday, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu denied sharing any audio recordings with the U.S., after a report from ABC said Turkish officials had played an audio recording for Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. The State Department also denied the report. Earlier this week, Trump said the U.S. had requested access to any audio or video evidence from Turkey's investigation.

Cavusoglu vowed to share Turkey's investigation findings "transparently," according to the state news agency Anadolu. Turkish authorities searched the Saudi Consulate earlier this week, the news agency said.

Anadolu reported that Turkish security officials say "on the same day of Khashoggi's disappearance, 15 other Saudis, including several officials, arrived in Istanbul on two planes and visited the consulate while Khashoggi was still inside." It added: "All of the identified officials have since left Turkey."

One suspect, a senior intelligence official, is known to be a "frequent companion of [Saudi] Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman," according to the Times.

Trump said Thursday that if Saudi Arabia is responsible, the consequences will be "very severe," according to the Times.

Vice President Pence, speaking with reporters Thursday in Colorado, said, "If what has been alleged occurred, if an innocent person lost their life at the hands of violence, that's to be condemned."

"If a journalist in particular lost their life at the hands of violence, that's an affront to the free and independent press around the world," Pence continued. "And there will be consequences."

Their statements mark a shift in tone from comments Trump made earlier this week. On Monday, the president said, "It sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers."
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Elfdart » 2018-10-20 08:29am

Yeah, and Jesus of Nazareth was crucified while resisting arrest.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Rogue 9 » 2018-10-20 09:20am

Elfdart wrote:
2018-10-20 08:29am
Yeah, and Jesus of Nazareth was crucified while resisting arrest.
Of course. After all, they just happened to fly in a team of top paramilitary intelligence officers and interrogators to the consulate that morning only to leave right after he died for no reason. :D
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Galvatron » 2018-10-20 10:01am

So after lying through their teeth and claiming that he left the consulate alive and well, NOW they're claiming that he only died because he "fought back" against their 15-man kill team?

Okay, so can they produce his intact body so we can at least attempt to verify that this was anything other than 100% premeditated murder?

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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Solauren » 2018-10-20 02:35pm

Galvatron wrote:
2018-10-20 10:01am
Okay, so can they produce his intact body so we can at least attempt to verify that this was anything other than 100% premeditated murder?
I doubt it.

Odds are, the body has already been disposed of, after being destroyed beyond identification.

I mean, that's the smart thing to do, before admitting to being involved in a death.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by SCRawl » 2018-10-20 02:49pm

They could say that there was a measure of panic after Khashoggi died unexpectedly during the struggle with their heroic consulate staff, and they destroyed the corpse. Which is why it's not available for inspection.

It's about as plausible as the rest of it, which is to say, not very plausible. I mean, they had a week to cook up a story, so you'd think that they gamed out any possible questions that might arise, including the disposition of Mr. Khashoggi's remains.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Zaune » 2018-10-20 03:44pm

Ralin wrote:
2018-10-16 05:57pm
And I'm a US citizen. If I commit a crime while I'm in China America doesn't get a say in how I'm punished, much less if I manage to offend the government so badly that they skip ahead to grabbing and killing me.
You realise that most democratic countries object to having their citizens detained without good cause by other states, much less tortured, executed or simply disappeared, right? And even if they're detained with good cause they usually offer free or subsidised legal representation through the consulate.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-10-20 03:46pm

U.P. Cinnabar wrote:
2018-10-20 01:39am
Jan Brady, Rom. From the 70s sitcom "The Brady Bunch." Her famous line was whining about her older sister "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!"
I guess that falls under "references I'm too young to get", then.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Elfdart » 2018-10-20 08:11pm

The whole "we were just trying to abduct him but ended up having to kill him" thing sounded awfully familiar. I remember it now though: Back when Nixon and Kissinger plotted with Chilean Nazis to overthrow Allende, they had little luck because the head of Chile's armed forces, while right-wing, wanted no part of a coup. One of his junior officers was game, so he and the CIA machinegunned General Schneider to get him out of the way. The excuse Kissinger and his apologists used for this assassination was that they were just going to kidnap him, but he fought back and they just had to empty their machinepistols into his chest.

Poor little things!
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-10-20 08:15pm

Elfdart wrote:
2018-10-20 08:11pm
The whole "we were just trying to abduct him but ended up having to kill him" thing sounded awfully familiar. I remember it now though: Back when Nixon and Kissinger plotted with Chilean Nazis to overthrow Allende, they had little luck because the head of Chile's armed forces, while right-wing, wanted no part of a coup. One of his junior officers was game, so he and the CIA machinegunned General Schneider to get him out of the way. The excuse Kissinger and his apologists used for this assassination was that they were just going to kidnap him, but he fought back and they just had to empty their machinepistols into his chest.

Poor little things!
Trump is the culmination of the path the Republican Party started down with Richard Nixon. Hell, some of Trump's people (ie, Roger Stone) got their start in politics in the Nixon administration. So the similarities should not be surprising. Trump is basically Nixon's presidency on steroids.
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2018-10-21 01:52pm

Ralin wrote:
2018-10-16 05:57pm
In reality journalists do not have an unlimited right to criticize their governments and cause trouble and many countries reserve the right to punish journalists who cross the line without involving the legal system.
Um, are you seriously defending extra-judicial killings of journalists? Because it sounds like you are saying that all governments have the right to do this, and seem to be implying that they SHOULD be doing this. That's pretty fucked up.

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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by Tribble » 2018-10-21 02:05pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
2018-10-21 01:52pm
Ralin wrote:
2018-10-16 05:57pm
In reality journalists do not have an unlimited right to criticize their governments and cause trouble and many countries reserve the right to punish journalists who cross the line without involving the legal system.
Um, are you seriously defending extra-judicial killings of journalists? Because it sounds like you are saying that all governments have the right to do this, and seem to be implying that they SHOULD be doing this. That's pretty fucked up.
Some clarification would be good here. I interpreted this more as "the extra-judicial killing of journalists is wrong, but it's not very surprising either."

IMO it looks Saudi Arabia clearly miscalculated on how much backlash and attention they would receive on this, hence all the last-minute backpedaling.
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wautd
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Re: Saudis Kill Journalist in Instanbul Consulate

Post by wautd » 2018-10-23 04:55am

Galvatron wrote:
2018-10-20 10:01am
So after lying through their teeth and claiming that he left the consulate alive and well, NOW they're claiming that he only died because he "fought back" against their 15-man kill team?

Okay, so can they produce his intact body so we can at least attempt to verify that this was anything other than 100% premeditated murder?
And here I thought that having a bone saw available and brining a boudy double was pure coincidence.
Just how stupid do they think we are?

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