European refugee crisis thread

[Ralin]

No. Re-read what I posted above. I don't agree with neither the assessment of rape punishment in Europe (which is the majority of Western nations FFS) as lenient, nor with the assessment of Sharia law punishment of rapists as "fitting". Finally, I don't agree that rape laws should be made more brutal in the West and think that the whole comparison is bullshit because it's built on just one example of America which is paranoid and crazy about non-violent drug use and light drugs, compared to other nations - where in fact there's no punishment for light drugs, and so it's not "ramping up" what's needed but relaxing America's insane Drug War policy (I can't honestly call it "war on drugs", sorry). That's all.

Wow, way to completely ignore the point to trumpet your own agenda.

[K. A. Pital]

I've explained myself clearly. Fuck off.

[Sir Sirius]

The statement is pretty simple: (1) the West should not "ramp up" penalties for rape, instead lesser offenses should carry no punishment or stop being a crime at all...

I read and read this over and over again because I found it such an utterly incomprehensible position for anyone to hold that had a hard time believing anyone would actually write that... but it says what it says. And what it says is one of the singularly most disgusting statements I have ever read on this forum.

Honestly, legalization of "lesser rape"? I'm simply failing in my attempts of finding words to describe how utterly revolted I am by you... ... ... the words just don't exist...

Oddly enough, rather than being truly outraged by this I am more saddened by the fact that a moderator on SD.net is actually arguing for the legalization of lesser rape. This forum has fallen far from what it once was and for the first time I find my self considering just quitting SD.net once and for all.

[K. A. Pital]

Hey, learn to read other posts as well. The lesser offences discussed here are non-violent drug use and other crimes that are punished disproportionately harsh in comparison to rape (e.g. petty theft), genius.

I understand that the board is not the most intellectual place ever, but some attention to the context would be appreciated.

Maybe you want to quit because you can't bother reading the discussion as a whole?

P. S. Notice how I didn't call you names, though you accused me of saying rape should be legalized with zero reasons for this, knowing I've repeatedly argued for female rights? That is what this board is like. You, on the other hand, just demonstrated that you fly off the hook for no reason, and this raises the question whether YOU are fit for the place.

[Ralin]

I've explained myself clearly. Fuck off.

Only thing that you explained is that you either can't read or deliberately chose not to so you could have a pretext to get on a soapbox.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't want to be a dogpiler, I have a somewhat different take on one of the things Honorius said, on account of different views on criminal punishment.

It's not that I'm refusing to listen to the women, I get irritated by Western men who are clueless that there are very real problems to being female even in the west, just as there are still drawbacks to being black in a white-dominated society. Yes, things are better but there is still a long way to go. Too often the answer to men behaving badly is still "women, change your conduct".

Well, I hope I for one have at least established my credentials in this area.

Can't speak for others, can't blame you for being annoyed. I... think, though, that Welf's original point was solely restricted to pointing out that:
1) The rape rate in Middle Eastern societies for 'unprotected' women is so immensely, staggeringly high that it makes it actively scary and dangerous to even consider being an independent women,
2) That this is a mechanism of social control, and
3) That his Middle Eastern female acquaintances feel immensely liberated by the rape rate being so much lower, possibly bordering on 'nonexistent' for specific issues like said Middle Eastern woman interacting with German police.*

None of that, as such, is untrue, and shooting him down because his words can be interpreted to mean "rape doesn't happen in Germany, at all, we have no problems, no sirree" seems a tad unfair.

*This might be very low; if the German police conduct themselves less badly than American police, it may well be that rape by police is virtually unheard of in Germany for all I know, even if it's a semi-common problem in the US.

It's not systematic, but it happens. The major difference is that in the west a woman isn't going to be executed for being a rape victim.

Not to down play this, but they aren't executed for being a rape victim, they're executed for falsely accusing someone of rape without evidence to back it.

...That's downplaying this.

No, seriously, the basic function of sharia's stance on rape is to say "well, rape is a horrible crime, BUT by default we're going to assume women are lying sluts, so if women actually get raped and the man wasn't stupid enough to do it in front of witnesses, she can't press charges because we'll kill her for being a lying slut."

This is... just about perfectly designed to permit Middle Eastern males to use the threat of rape as a social control mechanism. As in, rape becomes highly likely (because swarms of horny young men around with few or no outlets for sexual release, and who feel entitled to women's bodies). And the rules of evidence are stacked against the woman so it is unlikely that the rapist will be punished. And if the woman loses the case, she could be killed by the state as punishment for daring to make a rape accusation.

Aside from literally declaring rape to be legal this is just about the most oppressive way I can imagine for a patriarchal society to handle the legal issues surrounding rape.

However, the Sharia System makes the punishment fit the crime if proven, the Western One makes a mockery of the crime by treating rape less seriously than non-violent drug possession.

There is no easy answer to this conundrum, but the West does need to ramp up the penalties for rape and not treat it as less serious than non-violent drug use and the Sharia Law needs to stop executing accusers who fail to prove their case.

As Stas (excuse me, Das Kapital) pointed out, the US is virtually unique among Western nations in punishing non-violent drug possession with sentences of five, ten, or twenty years in prison. While you may be right that rape should be punished more harshly, you are wrong that "drug offenses are punished more harshly than rape" is a problem with the law on rape. The problem is that some (probably male) idiot decided in the '80s that possession of crack was worse than committing rape.

[Broomstick]

It's not that I'm refusing to listen to the women, I get irritated by Western men who are clueless that there are very real problems to being female even in the west, just as there are still drawbacks to being black in a white-dominated society. Yes, things are better but there is still a long way to go. Too often the answer to men behaving badly is still "women, change your conduct".

Well, I hope I for one have at least established my credentials in this area.

Yes, you have, and most other posters on this forum are reasonable and empathic people... but some of the news articles have quoted various people/officials stating that women should not go out alone, to certain things, etc. which is, again, telling women they are the ones who need to change their behavior.

Of course, there are times when it is reasonable to travel in groups, avoid crowds, and so forth, and I understand that it's done from a position of trying to keep people safe, but it's putting the focus on the wrong group's behavior. It's only slightly different than telling women they need to modify their dress in order not to entice men or give them ideas.

Another notion I have issue with is something I've been hearing again - that European cities are safe enough for women to walk alone at night. Oddly enough, the only people I hear this from are men - I have, as I stated not long after showing up on SD.net, actually been to Brussels. It's a nice city. Safer than Detroit, Gary Indiana, parts of Chicago.... but I would not have have felt safe walking the streets alone at night. I think that notion is wishful thinking. We all want to live in a neighborhood so safe, but I don't know any women, including myself, who feel "safe" at night. That doesn't mean I cower at home - I have many times been out, by myself, at night, even in big, bad cities like Chicago, riding buses or trains, walking along the sidewalk, but I do such things despite not feeling feeling safe, not because I truly feel comfortable doing it. In order to live the live the life I want I have to take certain risks. I try to minimize them, but I'm always aware they are there.

It's not systematic, but it happens. The major difference is that in the west a woman isn't going to be executed for being a rape victim.

Not to down play this, but they aren't executed for being a rape victim, they're executed for falsely accusing someone of rape without evidence to back it.

...That's downplaying this.

No, seriously, the basic function of sharia's stance on rape is to say "well, rape is a horrible crime, BUT by default we're going to assume women are lying sluts, so if women actually get raped and the man wasn't stupid enough to do it in front of witnesses, she can't press charges because we'll kill her for being a lying slut."

This is... just about perfectly designed to permit Middle Eastern males to use the threat of rape as a social control mechanism. As in, rape becomes highly likely (because swarms of horny young men around with few or no outlets for sexual release, and who feel entitled to women's bodies). And the rules of evidence are stacked against the woman so it is unlikely that the rapist will be punished. And if the woman loses the case, she could be killed by the state as punishment for daring to make a rape accusation.

Aside from literally declaring rape to be legal this is just about the most oppressive way I can imagine for a patriarchal society to handle the legal issues surrounding rape.

Nope, it's worse than declaring rape legal - if rape was legal and, hypothetically, a woman who was raped was not punished for stating she was raped that would, in fact, be less oppressive than, say, Saudi Arabia where if a woman says she is raped and can not prove it in a court of law she can be executed.

While you may be right that rape should be punished more harshly, you are wrong that "drug offenses are punished more harshly than rape" is a problem with the law on rape. The problem is that some (probably male) idiot decided in the '80s that possession of crack was worse than committing rape.

^ This.

[biostem]

This is going to sound awful, but I just don't know a better way to state it: If you are from a place whose culture is so different from the country you are seeking to live in, then you should be "quarantined" and educated until such time that you both understand and accept the rules of this place you want to make your new home. This would be no simple process, and an objective way of determining what values and in what way those values should be checked, (not to mention the possibility of the applicant simply lying), would need to be figured out.

I mean, would a person from a theocratic country, trying to move to a secular democracy really come out and say "I find it ok to forcibly have sex with a woman who is traveling alone"? Would such a person, when asked, and knowing that their answer would determine their eligibility to enter, just plainly state that "homosexuals should be killed, as should apostates, and I would kill them myself, should I encounter either one"?

The country that is allowing these refugees in should not have to change its ways, nor the expectation of safety from its current citizens, simply to accommodate the new arrivals.

Perhaps mandating emigrants to learn the native language AND have them taught the expected conduct as part of that language training, would work...

[Simon_Jester]

The language requirement is unjust- some people have trouble learning new languages, which doesn't mean they don't have a right to be free residents of the country they emigrate to.

The 'these are our laws, obey or be imprisoned' lessons are just, in my opinion. Nations have been making sure to firmly educate all who enter their borders of the basic laws by which citizens must live ever since the Bronze Age, after all.

Yes, you have, and most other posters on this forum are reasonable and empathic people... but some of the news articles have quoted various people/officials stating that women should not go out alone, to certain things, etc. which is, again, telling women they are the ones who need to change their behavior.

Of course, there are times when it is reasonable to travel in groups, avoid crowds, and so forth, and I understand that it's done from a position of trying to keep people safe, but it's putting the focus on the wrong group's behavior. It's only slightly different than telling women they need to modify their dress in order not to entice men or give them ideas.

...Hm.

Put this way. My perception is that, in response to a sudden crime wave, you do whatever will reduce the harm. It's not about telling women they're responsible for the rapes. It's not an attempt to shift responsibility. It's that, until the gangs of rapists are caught, which will inevitably take time, women should be aware that their city has become less safe. And, as a commonsense measure, should act accordingly.

The blame is not and cannot be theirs if something goes wrong- but if I see a bus heading for me, I'm not going to stand around and argue about whose fault it is. I'm going to get the hell out of the way, and sort out the rights and wrongs later.

Another notion I have issue with is something I've been hearing again - that European cities are safe enough for women to walk alone at night. Oddly enough, the only people I hear this from are men - I have, as I stated not long after showing up on SD.net, actually been to Brussels. It's a nice city. Safer than Detroit, Gary Indiana, parts of Chicago.... but I would not have have felt safe walking the streets alone at night. I think that notion is wishful thinking. We all want to live in a neighborhood so safe, but I don't know any women, including myself, who feel "safe" at night. That doesn't mean I cower at home - I have many times been out, by myself, at night, even in big, bad cities like Chicago, riding buses or trains, walking along the sidewalk, but I do such things despite not feeling feeling safe, not because I truly feel comfortable doing it. In order to live the live the life I want I have to take certain risks. I try to minimize them, but I'm always aware they are there.

I really wish we had more European women to comment on this.

Not to down play this, but they aren't executed for being a rape victim, they're executed for falsely accusing someone of rape without evidence to back it.

...That's downplaying this.

No, seriously, the basic function of sharia's stance on rape is to say "well, rape is a horrible crime, BUT by default we're going to assume women are lying sluts, so if women actually get raped and the man wasn't stupid enough to do it in front of witnesses, she can't press charges because we'll kill her for being a lying slut."

This is... just about perfectly designed to permit Middle Eastern males to use the threat of rape as a social control mechanism. As in, rape becomes highly likely (because swarms of horny young men around with few or no outlets for sexual release, and who feel entitled to women's bodies). And the rules of evidence are stacked against the woman so it is unlikely that the rapist will be punished. And if the woman loses the case, she could be killed by the state as punishment for daring to make a rape accusation.

Aside from literally declaring rape to be legal this is just about the most oppressive way I can imagine for a patriarchal society to handle the legal issues surrounding rape.

Nope, it's worse than declaring rape legal - if rape was legal and, hypothetically, a woman who was raped was not punished for stating she was raped that would, in fact, be less oppressive than, say, Saudi Arabia where if a woman says she is raped and can not prove it in a court of law she can be executed.

Hm. Hadn't thought of it like that. You have a point.

I think in that way the sharia system is worse, you're right.

But in another way it is less bad, because at least in principle men may be deterred from committing rapes if rape is illegal. Nothing would deter them if it was legal. And would-be rapists in a sharia country may be deterred from doing it openly in public, where witnesses or cameras might provide the evidence that can put their heads on the chopping block. Whereas if rape were actually legal, both these things would almost certainly happen, given the way Middle Eastern societies operate.

[jwl]

Not to down play this, but they aren't executed for being a rape victim, they're executed for falsely accusing someone of rape without evidence to back it.

...That's downplaying this.

No, seriously, the basic function of sharia's stance on rape is to say "well, rape is a horrible crime, BUT by default we're going to assume women are lying sluts, so if women actually get raped and the man wasn't stupid enough to do it in front of witnesses, she can't press charges because we'll kill her for being a lying slut."

This is... just about perfectly designed to permit Middle Eastern males to use the threat of rape as a social control mechanism. As in, rape becomes highly likely (because swarms of horny young men around with few or no outlets for sexual release, and who feel entitled to women's bodies). And the rules of evidence are stacked against the woman so it is unlikely that the rapist will be punished. And if the woman loses the case, she could be killed by the state as punishment for daring to make a rape accusation.

Aside from literally declaring rape to be legal this is just about the most oppressive way I can imagine for a patriarchal society to handle the legal issues surrounding rape.

Nope, it's worse than declaring rape legal - if rape was legal and, hypothetically, a woman who was raped was not punished for stating she was raped that would, in fact, be less oppressive than, say, Saudi Arabia where if a woman says she is raped and can not prove it in a court of law she can be executed.

Well that rather depends if the punishment is for lying about being raped or lying about being raped in court. If it is the latter she would be free to talk about being raped as much as she likes, it's just that she also gets the right to take the risk of bringing it to court if she thinks she has enough evidence to convict. If rape was legal she wouldn't have that choice.

[Broomstick]

Yes, you have, and most other posters on this forum are reasonable and empathic people... but some of the news articles have quoted various people/officials stating that women should not go out alone, to certain things, etc. which is, again, telling women they are the ones who need to change their behavior.

Of course, there are times when it is reasonable to travel in groups, avoid crowds, and so forth, and I understand that it's done from a position of trying to keep people safe, but it's putting the focus on the wrong group's behavior. It's only slightly different than telling women they need to modify their dress in order not to entice men or give them ideas.

...Hm.
Put this way. My perception is that, in response to a sudden crime wave, you do whatever will reduce the harm. It's not about telling women they're responsible for the rapes. It's not an attempt to shift responsibility. It's that, until the gangs of rapists are caught, which will inevitably take time, women should be aware that their city has become less safe. And, as a commonsense measure, should act accordingly.

The blame is not and cannot be theirs if something goes wrong- but if I see a bus heading for me, I'm not going to stand around and argue about whose fault it is. I'm going to get the hell out of the way, and sort out the rights and wrongs later.

It's a subtle thing, but honestly, the kneejerk response to a crime wave targeting women is always "women stay home, women don't be alone, women have an escort". If you get a wave of muggings you don't hear "men stay home, men don't be alone, men have an escort". None of that advice helps women working odd hours who have to keep working to keep a roof over their heads. The assumption - unconscious but present - is still that going places outside the home is optional for women and women are helpless victims to be protected.

I mean, it's fine if on a list of things to protect yourself they list those things, but put in other things like "have a phone handy to call for help, wear flats so you can run if you need to, pay attention to your surroundings" because the fact is women do need to go out and can't always get an impromptu bodyguard to go with them. The problem is when the first and only response is "women stay home" or the equivalent.

[Broomstick]

Nope, it's worse than declaring rape legal - if rape was legal and, hypothetically, a woman who was raped was not punished for stating she was raped that would, in fact, be less oppressive than, say, Saudi Arabia where if a woman says she is raped and can not prove it in a court of law she can be executed.

Well that rather depends if the punishment is for lying about being raped or lying about being raped in court. If it is the latter she would be free to talk about being raped as much as she likes, it's just that she also gets the right to take the risk of bringing it to court if she thinks she has enough evidence to convict. If rape was legal she wouldn't have that choice.

I don't think you understand.

It's not just rape that's illegal under Sharia - it's any sex outside of marriage. It's not about lying about rape, it's about having sex with someone you're not married to. In Saudia Arabia a woman can be put to death if she admits to having any sort of sex outside of marriage. It's not a matter of her bringing it into court, if she says she had sex with anyone other than a legal husband she will be prosecuted. End of story. Unless she can prove it's rape, which is very difficult under Sharia.

If a woman has been raped in one of these places she dare not talk about it, or she risks prosecution.

[Welf]

Another notion I have issue with is something I've been hearing again - that European cities are safe enough for women to walk alone at night. Oddly enough, the only people I hear this from are men - I have, as I stated not long after showing up on SD.net, actually been to Brussels. It's a nice city. Safer than Detroit, Gary Indiana, parts of Chicago.... but I would not have have felt safe walking the streets alone at night. I think that notion is wishful thinking. We all want to live in a neighborhood so safe, but I don't know any women, including myself, who feel "safe" at night. That doesn't mean I cower at home - I have many times been out, by myself, at night, even in big, bad cities like Chicago, riding buses or trains, walking along the sidewalk, but I do such things despite not feeling feeling safe, not because I truly feel comfortable doing it. In order to live the live the life I want I have to take certain risks. I try to minimize them, but I'm always aware they are there.

That women feel safe enough to walk all streets at night in European cities is definitely a myth. I can only refer to my experiences in Berlin, which is one of the cities with the highest crime rates in Germany, but women I knew there did mention that they avoid certain streets, or feel it is dangerous if it is dark. Even in boroughs or streets where I felt safe.

I really wish we had more European women to comment on this.

Now I wonder if we don't have more (western) European women on this forum or if they just pretend to be men to avoid harassment. Then again, this is a scifi forum
But I do wish the same. I'm basically retelling what I have been told, or interpret from conversations. There are a lot of experiences women have that I simply can't share. So I'm a bit uncomfortable if I'm giving an additional perspective from immigrant and European women or if I'm mansplaining rape.

[Simon_Jester]

It's a subtle thing, but honestly, the kneejerk response to a crime wave targeting women is always "women stay home, women don't be alone, women have an escort". If you get a wave of muggings you don't hear "men stay home, men don't be alone, men have an escort".

In fairness (please read what I say in response to the rest of your post before replying), there are very few muggers and other criminals who target specifically men.

I have heard the police advise everyone to stay home, when dealing with crime waves that target everyone. If they don't advise men specifically to stay home, it may be because they never have crimes where males are the sole likely targets, not just because of discrimination.

None of that advice helps women working odd hours who have to keep working to keep a roof over their heads. The assumption - unconscious but present - is still that going places outside the home is optional for women and women are helpless victims to be protected.

That's a very legitimate point.

I mean, it's fine if on a list of things to protect yourself they list those things, but put in other things like "have a phone handy to call for help, wear flats so you can run if you need to, pay attention to your surroundings" because the fact is women do need to go out and can't always get an impromptu bodyguard to go with them. The problem is when the first and only response is "women stay home" or the equivalent.

Agreed.

[K. A. Pital]

Another notion I have issue with is something I've been hearing again - that European cities are safe enough for women to walk alone at night. Oddly enough, the only people I hear this from are men - I have, as I stated not long after showing up on SD.net, actually been to Brussels. It's a nice city. Safer than Detroit, Gary Indiana, parts of Chicago.... but I would not have have felt safe walking the streets alone at night. I think that notion is wishful thinking. We all want to live in a neighborhood so safe, but I don't know any women, including myself, who feel "safe" at night. That doesn't mean I cower at home - I have many times been out, by myself, at night, even in big, bad cities like Chicago, riding buses or trains, walking along the sidewalk, but I do such things despite not feeling feeling safe, not because I truly feel comfortable doing it. In order to live the live the life I want I have to take certain risks. I try to minimize them, but I'm always aware they are there.

No European city is as safe at night as an Asian city. Brussels is especially unsafe, or felt so to me, as did Paris and many other places. They are often very unsafe from my point of view. But that is because the experiences drawn from Asia myself, as well as those of my Asian friends, seem to indicate a totally different security level in the East. I cannot say US cities are much worse, but New York and Washington did feel worse than German, Austrian and Spanish cities.

My wife's opinion is that only developed parts of Asia such as China, Korea and Japan, and some smaller monocultural and heavily policed cities in Europe are safe for resident women to walk at night.

[mr friendly guy]

On the safe cities part, I can't speak for European cities but I will be visiting Europe later this year. However I can say that in Asian cities (Singapore, parts of China) I see little kids walking unaccompanied by parents at times which wouldn't happen here. Not sure how much "safe for kids" translates to "safe for women", but I think its not unreasonable to extrapolate that it will still be reasonably safe.

[K. A. Pital]

On the safe cities part, I can't speak for European cities but I will be visiting Europe later this year. However I can say that in Asian cities (Singapore, parts of China) I see little kids walking unaccompanied by parents at times which wouldn't happen here. Not sure how much "safe for kids" translates to "safe for women", but I think its not unreasonable to extrapolate that it will still be reasonably safe.

If by "reasonably" you mean safely hanging out very late in the evening and dancing deep in the night, at 3-4 am, in parks and green zones or doing taijiquan, then yes, reasonably safe it is.

I also think it is safer because the East has less of a drinking plus drug intoxication problem. Drugged youth are common in the West, but you have to specifically search for them in the East. Being heavily drunk outside on the street is just wrong period, but in the West vomit-covered seats on bus stops are totally expected.