SC Governor calls for removal of Confederate flag

[Thanas]

Prussia was the largest member state of the Empire, but not the Empire itself. And it elected democratic parties, who, thanks to the Prussian tradition of obeying the superior sovereign, had an easy time getting the administration to in turn follow democratic orders/implement them. Of course, that same principle was then abused by Hitler...



But I think we should end this tangent here.

[FSTargetDrone]

The flag has just come down in Alabama.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... /29210283/

A good next step. It's just grotesque that it took 9 people's lives to push it forward.

[Esquire]

I never understood why the battle flag is considered the "Confederate Flag."

Because the Confederacy only existed for four years or so and the only people who cared enough to try and preserve its memory were ex-soldiers.

[Lord Revan]

I never understood why the battle flag is considered the "Confederate Flag."

Because the Confederacy only existed for four years or so and the only people who cared enough to try and preserve its memory were ex-soldiers.

IIRC there never was an official "nation flag" for the CSA so the battle flag is the closest thing these people have.

[FSTargetDrone]

Some domestic flag makers are ceasing production of the flag, now (this one happens to be local to me):

Justine McDaniel, Inquirer Staff Writer
Last updated: Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 10:58 PM
Posted: Wednesday, June 24, 2015, 7:37 PM

WYOMISSING, Pa. - The doors are locked at Valley Forge Flag Co. Employees must ring a newly installed doorbell and wait outside the dark tinted windows for someone to let them in.

Inside, phones are ringing. The Berks County flag manufacturer, one of the nation's largest, has been fielding angry calls since making headlines Tuesday when it announced it would no longer make the Confederate battle flag.

The decision came in the wake of the June 17 killing of nine black church members in Charleston, S.C., and growing public opposition to a flag seemingly embraced by alleged shooter Dylann Roof and others as a symbol of white supremacy and slavery.

As details began to emerge about Roof's reportedly racially driven motives - including a photo of him holding the flag - Valley Forge Flag leaders called a meeting to discuss the blue-and-red Confederate banners they stitch and sell.

"It wasn't even a business decision, it's a moral decision," said Christopher Binner, vice president of marketing and sales. "It was an easy decision in light of the tragedy that happened."

On Monday night, Valley Forge Flag employees pulled Confederate flags from orders that were about to ship. (Customers received a store credit.) The next day, the company became one of the first manufacturers to publicly declare it would no longer make them.

"The flag offends people. That's a fact," Binner said. "I wish we would've deleted that flag 10 years ago."

The family-run company was founded in 1882 and started making flags during the Depression, when it opened a sewing factory in Spring City. Now, it has four plants in South Carolina and 300 employees, including 35 at the Berks County office park.

Its American flags have been with soldiers at war, on the caskets of U.S. presidents, and on space shuttles. Its clients include retailers such as Home Depot, Costco, and the U.S. government.

Binner said his company makes millions of flags a year, and the Confederate banner represented a minuscule portion of sales. But it remained in stock because some customers buy it for historical reasons, he said.

Other flag makers said that their Confederate flags were most often bought for Civil War reenactments or museums.

After the decision, the calls poured in to Valley Forge Flag from all over the country, Binner said.

Some people thanked the company for nixing the product. But many others said they were unhappy. Some said they would never buy a Valley Forge flag again.

The company has not received any threats, but Binner said he was worried about the safety of employees. "When you make a decision like that, sadly, you choose sides," he said.

Among five of the largest flag-makers in the country, all but one have announced their intent to cease production of the Confederate banner.

At FlagSource - the holdout - a spokeswoman said late Wednesday that the company had no comment and could not say whether it even sells Confederate flags.

FlagZone, a manufacturer in Gilbertsville, Montgomery County, was another company that stopped production Tuesday.

"I would love for every person who has a Confederate flag to replace it with the American flag, because we are the United States of America and we should be proud of that," said president Dan Ziegler.

At Annin Flagmakers in Roseland, N.J., senior vice president of sales and marketing Mary Repke said she received a few "hate e-mails" after her company joined the ban, but the company had not increased security.

Despite the backlash, Binner remained confident he made the right decision. Still, he said he wasn't sure how much impact the decision would have on changing people's views.

"I think it's going to take a lot more than eliminating a flag, unfortunately," he said.

Good.

[Gandalf]

I never understood why the battle flag is considered the "Confederate Flag."

Because the Confederacy only existed for four years or so and the only people who cared enough to try and preserve its memory were ex-soldiers.

I think it could be that when one sees paintings of the Civil War, they tend to be of the battles, wherein the battle flag is the one on display set against the Union one. How many famous pictures are there that even feature the Confederate national flag, in a way that people might remember?

[Flagg]

When I lived in FL I saw both on trucks, the "Stars and Bars" aka the "Official Flag of the CSA" (the most popular one, they went through several, they just weren't very loyal to any of their selections, what a shock ) and the "Confederate Battle Flag", usually on either end of the trucks back window. Most people don't even know what the "Stars and Bars" even looks like (most wrongly think it's the Confederate Battle Flag), easily mistaking it for a Revolutionary War Flag (The first time the South turned traitor ), a state flag, or even the flag of a Caribbean nation. In any case, it's no better and just like it's cousin should be banned anywhere but a museum, history book, or film/TV/stage play set.

But even the battle flag wasn't really "re-popularized" by white southern males at large until the Civil rights movement, when suddenly some Southern states incorporated it into the state flags. The only one left that's right in your face is Mississippi's flag, the other 2 are Alabama and FL, though to be fair to FL (we have to be, that poor state is infested with a virulent and excruciatingly painful form of herpes that encrusts the state with cracks oozing pus, and it is called... Redneck. ), they seem to be the exception as I believe they last changed their flag around 115 years ago, well before the civil rights movement, but I've always been told it was in honor of the CSA. By teachers.

[GuppyShark]

Most people don't even know what the "Stars and Bars" even looks like (most wrongly think it's the Confederate Battle Flag), easily mistaking it for a Revolutionary War Flag (The first time the South turned traitor ), a state flag, or even the flag of a Caribbean nation.

See, that's actually the problem with dismissing the Confederates as "traitors". You're all traitors to the Crown and Commonwealth so what's the difference? That the Confederates lost?

[Flagg]

Most people don't even know what the "Stars and Bars" even looks like (most wrongly think it's the Confederate Battle Flag), easily mistaking it for a Revolutionary War Flag (The first time the South turned traitor ), a state flag, or even the flag of a Caribbean nation.

See, that's actually the problem with dismissing the Confederates as "traitors". You're all traitors to the Crown and Commonwealth so what's the difference? That the Confederates lost?

Yes. Plus they entered into an agreement to form a permanent Union and their reason for treason was a fucking temper tantrum. "We think Lincoln will do bad things to our ability to own and abuse human beings even though he has said no such thing and has supported the status quo! We gotta leave!" And they fired the first shots, invaded the Northern states they claimed they wanted to leave, and blah, blah, double blah. TBH I think the Revolution was unfounded and I'd have been a loyalist and hauled my ass up to Canada, but thus is life.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Most people don't even know what the "Stars and Bars" even looks like (most wrongly think it's the Confederate Battle Flag), easily mistaking it for a Revolutionary War Flag (The first time the South turned traitor ), a state flag, or even the flag of a Caribbean nation.

See, that's actually the problem with dismissing the Confederates as "traitors". You're all traitors to the Crown and Commonwealth so what's the difference? That the Confederates lost?

Pretty much yeah. If you succeed it's a Revolution, if you fail it's a traitorous Rebellion at best. History get's written by the winners after all.

[Civil War Man]

I never understood why the battle flag is considered the "Confederate Flag."

Because the Confederacy only existed for four years or so and the only people who cared enough to try and preserve its memory were ex-soldiers.

IIRC there never was an official "nation flag" for the CSA so the battle flag is the closest thing these people have.

They've had a few. The first "official" flag of the Confederacy was the Stars and Bars, which never really caught on too much due to its similarities to the US flag.



Partway through the war, they adopted the "Stainless Banner", which was a battle flag on a white field. It was also called the "White Man's Flag" by its designer, since he chose the white field as a symbol of what he considered to be the superiority of the white race.



That had a problem of looking like a flag of surrender when there's no wind, so they created the "Bloodstained Banner" near the end of the war by adding a red stripe to it.

Most people don't even know what the "Stars and Bars" even looks like (most wrongly think it's the Confederate Battle Flag), easily mistaking it for a Revolutionary War Flag (The first time the South turned traitor ), a state flag, or even the flag of a Caribbean nation.

See, that's actually the problem with dismissing the Confederates as "traitors". You're all traitors to the Crown and Commonwealth so what's the difference? That the Confederates lost?

One big difference, besides the Confederates losing, is that no other country in the world ever recognized the Confederacy as a sovereign nation. It's hard for your rebellion to gain any kind of legitimacy if no one ever recognizes it as legitimate.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Most people don't even know what the "Stars and Bars" even looks like (most wrongly think it's the Confederate Battle Flag), easily mistaking it for a Revolutionary War Flag (The first time the South turned traitor ), a state flag, or even the flag of a Caribbean nation.

See, that's actually the problem with dismissing the Confederates as "traitors". You're all traitors to the Crown and Commonwealth so what's the difference? That the Confederates lost?

I would argue (despite hindsight leading me to sometimes wish we had lost the revolutionary war) that loyalty is a two way street. In the revolutionary war, the colonists were being forced to pay taxes they had no say in levying, in particular several egregious taxes that had to be paid in currency rather than trade goods like many other taxes. The american colonies did not have a mint, so coinage was in short supply. Cant mail a letter without coinage. Gets pretty bad.

The Confederacy on the other hand lost a valid election (despite denying Lincoln ballot status in an attempt to rig the election), declared independence, and then set about attacking the Union.

But ultimately yes, the difference is that the CSA lost, and they lost with a wretched and vile cause in their hearts.

[Borgholio]

The only one left that's right in your face is Mississippi's flag

Another interesting fact about Mississippi - they didn't even officially ratify the 13th amendment until two years ago. No, really.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/after-148-y ... d-slavery/

[Wild Zontargs]

Well, it looks like Apple has now banned all apps containing the Confederate flag from their app store, including every game involving the American Civil War.

It's looking like Apple has pulled everything from the App Store that features a Confederate flag, regardless of context. The reasoning Apple is sending developers is "...because it includes images of the confederate flag used in offensive and mean-spirited ways." We just spoke with Andrew from HexWar Games, who have released many historical strategy games. He insists, "We're in no way sympathetic to the use of the flag in an offensive way, we used it purely because historically that was the flag that was used at the time."

[Thanas]

That is just stupid.

[K. A. Pital]

Just excessive vigilance. Germany also bans the use of the swastika even in historic games. No big deal. Better safe than sorry.

[Borgholio]

Just excessive vigilance. Germany also bans the use of the swastika even in historic games. No big deal. Better safe than sorry.

I do remember this from German versions of Wolfenstein 3d that had to be edited or simply banned since there were swastikas everywhere.

[Titan Uranus]

It's not "vigilance", it's just half-wited alarmism. What is every civil war game supposed to use the stars and bars? Is every history app supposed to just avoid talking about the confederacy, reconstruction, the klan, and the civil right movement?

If you don't want state governments to give it a place of honor, that's fine, under many circumstances I would agree with you, but to outright ban the symbol is anathema to a free society.

It is an admission that you are incapable of arguing against the ideals of the movements that use that flag and it grants a disgusting ideology credibility because shortsighted busybody like you tried to ban it.

Oh yeah, and apple doesn't ban the nazi swastika, so it's not as though their have high standards for "hate symbols".

Christ Stas, I expect this kind of petty authoritarianism from idiot children like Metahive and Flagg, but I really thought better of you.

[Thanas]

Just excessive vigilance. Germany also bans the use of the swastika even in historic games. No big deal. Better safe than sorry.

And it is just as stupid, especially as games should fall under artistic exceptions, like movies.

[Metahive]

Just excessive vigilance. Germany also bans the use of the swastika even in historic games. No big deal. Better safe than sorry.

And it is just as stupid, especially as games should fall under artistic exceptions, like movies.

O man I wish. I hate it that Germany still classifies video games as children's toys with all the restrictions that brings with it. I mean the swastika erased or replaced by the iron cross or something, OK, I can live with that, but turning enemies into robots like in the first Half Life or several Command and Conquer titles...ARGLGBASFBR!

[Thanas]

Yeah, it should change (and does, the old C&C and doom etc. are not on the index anymore).

[Rogue 9]

The coopting of the battle flag is akin to what happened with the Imperial War Flag and the Imperial/Prussian flag in Prussia - the neonazis used them because the swastika was banned and people looked at them funny. Now those idiots have coopted the Imperial flags.

It actually isn't, because the Confederate battle flag isn't co-opted to racism at all. It was a racist symbol from the minute they finished sewing the very first one, flown as an emblem of the military force of a polity founded specifically on a racist, slaveholding ideology, "exactly the opposite" of the ideals of the American Revolution in the words of that polity's vice president. If anything, it was co-opted to merely represent Southern good-ol'-boyism and then taken back.

[Rogue 9]

Ghetto edit: I'll just leave this here.

[Grumman]

Ghetto edit: I'll just leave this here.

Wrong flag.

[Civil War Man]

It's not "vigilance", it's just half-wited alarmism. What is every civil war game supposed to use the stars and bars? Is every history app supposed to just avoid talking about the confederacy, reconstruction, the klan, and the civil right movement?

If you don't want state governments to give it a place of honor, that's fine, under many circumstances I would agree with you, but to outright ban the symbol is anathema to a free society.

It is an admission that you are incapable of arguing against the ideals of the movements that use that flag and it grants a disgusting ideology credibility because shortsighted busybody like you tried to ban it.

Oh yeah, and apple doesn't ban the nazi swastika, so it's not as though their have high standards for "hate symbols".

Christ Stas, I expect this kind of petty authoritarianism from idiot children like Metahive and Flagg, but I really thought better of you.

It is not being banned. Private companies and government organizations are choosing, for political, ethical, and/or economic reasons, to distance themselves from a symbol with a toxic history, because recent events have made it so people can no longer ignore that toxicity. Nothing is legally preventing you from purchasing a Confederate flag and flying it in front of your home. Nothing is legally preventing a company that wants to sell Confederate flags to continue selling them. The only thing that's changed is that several companies that would have sold you that flag in the past have decided that they no longer will.

Think of it this way: the people railing against companies that decide that they no longer want to sell Confederate paraphernalia are, in essence, saying that they believe it should be compulsory for these companies to continue selling it. Is forcing a company to continue selling that symbol any less anathema to a free society than banning them from selling it?