Baltimore Protests and Riots

[cmdrjones]

If US Police had standards we wouldn't be having this conversation, would we? The standards at the moment are "how to deny culpability when you accidentally beat a black man to death for looking at you funny".

A fair point, but doesn't invalidate the possibility that in order to get to the magical 40% figure we'd be lowering standards again.

[cmdrjones]

A UK comparison is irrelevant to describing a systemic problem. The UK and the US have different cultures and different expectations of what law and order as well as the enforcement of it mean. You have to prove that within the subject country, and crime rates and police shooting rates and police complaint rates even amongst communities of color vary wildly.

Bullshit American exceptionalism. You're not fucking special, except in the short bus sense. The comparison is also not unique between the US and UK, US police kill the most members of the population in any first world nation by a massive degree, far more than the degree of variation in crime rates

Since Rotherham, you guys are exceptional too!

[The Romulan Republic]

Especially when it leads you to conclude that people must be stupid because clearly they think stupid things because clearly the only interpretation of their words is the stupid one because clearly you can't be bothered to back up and think "wait, what else could he have meant?"

You said "If a faction of the protestors organized a serious, committed guerrilla underground devoted to waging urban warfare against a police force they see as an occupying army, and refrained from committing crimes against the populace, I would have very little to say against them except "In the long run I don't think this will work out for those guys."

This suggests that you have little or no moral objection to such a course of action. You may not be advocating it exactly, so I apologize for suggesting that you were. In hindsight, that was an error on my part. However, I still find the fact that you could find nothing more to say against such a course of action deeply disturbing and indicative of both a logical and moral deficiency.

You realize that, among other things, you're condemning the WWII French Resistance as terrorists?

Not at all. I simply don't consider the Nazi occupation of France (and the accompanying genocide) equivalent to American policing and warranting an equivalent response.

Edit: And, as Thanas pointed out, they probably did some stuff that could be classified as terrorist. No side was purely noble in World War II- just not as utterly evil.

[The Romulan Republic]

Here are a few measures I think should be enacted (to steer this into constructive criticism):

- Disbar soldiers from becoming policemen or enact strict quotas, like "no more than 40% of the force can be ex-soldiers and no two soldiers can go on patrol together."

Seems rather discriminatory, and in any case would never fly politically in the US.

- Make patrols double. Two officers alone are way better than just one guy who might get scared and do something regrettable.

Agreed, but this will cost a lot of money.

- Require that at least 40% of the force are minority-recruited.

Not sure how feasible that would be in areas that were heavily populated by one group.

- In double patrol pair, as a rule, one minority member with one non-minority member

In an way, this sounds good, but it also has this vibe of "We don't trust you if you're white".

- Try to hire as many women as possible. You'd be amazed at how de-escalating female police members are (seen this myself in action)

This seems a bit like gender stereotyping, but more opportunities for women is a good thing in its own right.

- Force officers to conform to the threat evaluation protocol used by European police agencies (three step system, a pyramid of escalation etc.)

Can't comment much without knowing more about this system.

None of the solutions are going to make this go away on its own, but I think they would greatly reduce the risk of violence (and now I am prepared for the great nitpick).

You left out my personal favourite- require all cops to wear cameras while on duty. And make tampering with them a felony.

[Haminal10]

I'm sorry, aren't the police constitutionally bound to not engage in cruel and unusual punishment? Aren't they constitutionally bound to provide life-saving care?
The people torching stores and destroying businesses are fucking criminals, and I never said destroying the property of innocent people was right. I even said that there are people who are just using the situation as an excuse to get their fill of destruction. But you can't acknowledge that, you can't acknowledge that for some people getting violent is the only thing they think can work at this point. You don't have to see it from their point of view, so you don't fucking care about how the police treat them.

You fucking idiot, I never said destroying other people's property was right. I was explaining why some might think violence is the only thing that might work at this point.
You're too stuck in a privileged position to realize that for many people, the police are nothing more than a legalized gang. If you wanna talk about "thugs" let's go for a more apt group to finger: The police. They run what amounts to a protection racket. They can harass, intimidate, assault, and even kill people with near impunity. If you don't think that's justification for getting pissed the fuck off, you're a blindingly stupid person.

But I'm not inclined to say you can't understand why some may turn to violence. Your focus on just a few things while ignoring everything else I posted suggests to me that you don't have the guts to say that you feel as though people have no right to be angry at the entire criminal justice system. Either you have your head too far up your own ass to look at what happens on a near-constant basis, or you just don't care about them because they aren't in your income bracket. They're just lazy, stupid, good-for-nothings. And no, I'm not implying it's a racial matter for you. I'm saying that it's all about a view that because they're poor, they don't matter. That you believe they wouldn't be poor if they were as good as you.
Saying "I understand why there are people that would do this" isn't the same as condoning it. It's called empathy.

You are correct: my experience with the police is going to be vastly different from that of a poor minority. I also can comprehend and “understand” that people could become so angry and frustrated with the police that they lash out. I also think the “decision” to riot is ultimately a short-sighted one that will do more harm than good in the long run. The peaceful protests about the death of Freddie Gray that had been going on in Baltimore for more than a week are absolutely justified and have been effective in raising my awareness about the deference experiences with the police. There are police practices, like “rough riding”, that I had literally never heard of until the protests. The more I learn about them, the more that I support the protestors and the idea of serious police reform.

The rioting and looting that started on Saturday and reached a climax on Monday night was upsetting, surreal, and sometimes terrifying. As a homeowner in Southeast Baltimore, do I occupy a privileged position compared to the rioters? Absolutely. But there are also homeowners in West Baltimore, and I am pretty sure that they didn’t have much empathy or understanding as they watched the rioters smash, loot, and burn businesses, homes, and cars. I am also certain that the peaceful protestors didn’t like how the rioting and looting completely took over the news cycle, and how they are now getting lumped in with violent criminals.

Try understanding things from my perspective: I stayed up late into the night, listening to reports of rioting and looting occur steadily closer to my home and worry that my family was going to be harmed. I watched as buildings were set on fire, and how the rioters cut the firefighters’ hoses and then chased them away with rocks. I thought their grievances were with Baltimore’s Police Department… why are they attacking the Fire Department?

[The Romulan Republic]

Not at all what I said, imbecile. What I said is that white people, due to the fact that they have never lived in constant fear of the police, to the point that when their male children reach a certain age they have to talk to them about how best not to be beaten or outright murdered by the police, have not anything close to an inkling of understanding the mindset of the minority, but especially black, population in this country and thus don't get a fucking say in the matter because of your white privilege.

The average white person won't have the same experience as the average black person, but I assure you their are white people out their who have serious first hand experience of police abuse.

In any case, everyone gets a say. That's how democracy and freedom of expression works. And arguments should be evaluated based on their validity, not the race of the speaker (that always seems to me like just an ad hominem fallacy writ large).

You can condemn police brutality until the cows come home, but considering how many cases of outright police MURDER compared to the number of riots there are, the rioters have it heads and tails over the cops morally, who are usually so heavy handed when dealing with nonviolent protests, they spark the riots in the first place.

I'd rather look at people individually rather than say "you're better because you're part of this group."

And I'm sure a lot of the rioters are normally decent people. That doesn't excuse what they're doing in this situation.

Oh boo fucking hoo, the white Canadian has been a'scared of the Canadian police who IIRC don't have anything close to a cunthairs' amount of the issues dealing with abuse and murder when it comes to their population at large, let alone their minority population can cry me a goddamned river, then drown in it.

What do you know about Canada?

Oh, by the way, I'm a duel citizen, had a American father, and lived the first 13 years of my life, more or less, in Colorado. I am as American as anyone.

But since you've already dismissed what I have to say based on my race, why not do so based on my nationality as well? Dipshit.

Yes, I've seen the above, in which a white Canadian condemns the black Americans fed up with the American police beating and killing them without any repercussions in the vast as the distance between the Earth and the Sun number of cases, who if they can't see why they need to shut the fuck up because they don't know shit about shit about what is currently going on in the country I've lived in my entire life, needs to experience life as a black American for a decade or 2 to gain perspective. If you live past the first few weeks anyway.

Blah blah, dismissing my arguments because of my race/nationality (which you can't even get right) rather than addressing them.

No, I'm not black. And their are some things that, mercifully, I have never experienced. That said, I don't believe that one has to have personally experienced a situation to have some worthwhile thoughts about it. Otherwise, discussion of any events outside of our own homes and lives would be impossible. You want to disagree with my conclusions, do so based on evidence and reasoning, not dismissing what I say because I happen to belong to such and such group.

And my opinion of the rioters has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that they're black. Don't believe me? I don't really give a shit. I have a long history of posting my thoughts on white people engaging in political violence on this forum.

[Haminal10]

Not at all what I said, imbecile. What I said is that white people, due to the fact that they have never lived in constant fear of the police, to the point that when their male children reach a certain age they have to talk to them about how best not to be beaten or outright murdered by the police, have not anything close to an inkling of understanding the mindset of the minority, but especially black, population in this country and thus don't get a fucking say in the matter because of your white privilege. You can condemn police brutality until the cows come home, but considering how many cases of outright police MURDER compared to the number of riots there are, the rioters have it heads and tails over the cops morally, who are usually so heavy handed when dealing with nonviolent protests, they spark the riots in the first place.

Yeah fuck that. The rioters and looters are fucking criminals who are shitting all over the memory of Freddie Gray and efforts at real police reform. I hope they review the videos from the rioting, identify every single looter, and throw the fucking book at them.

[Me2005]

b) claim that despite sharing similar values and culture, there is a wide gap between the USA and the rest of the western world that makes any comparison bad per se

And its funny you want to claim we are so similar when this board revels in pointing out how different the US (generally for the worse) from specifically Europe. There are important differences

I'd also point out, the US is nowhere near as homogeneous culturally, racially, or ethnically as any 1st-world European state. Normally I'd say that based on straight-up conjecture but here's a link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... countries/

I'd suspect that that link doesn't include the fact that "white" on a US ethnicity survey would likely mean "Scottish, German, French, Polish, Russian, English, Welsh, Italian, Greek," etc. etc. in any European country, and possibly also Canada.

My solution is not to make the police reflect their community, but demographics across the entire country. And minorities are needed per se, otherwise we get the "black person drives through all-white town in flyover state" problem

Woah woah woah, I'd agree with making the police makeup reflect the community makeup, but the entire country? In every community? I don't know if you understand the scope of the thing you're talking about here - according to census data pulled from Wikipedia, Washington State is 77% white, 3.6% black, and 7.2% asian, with some islander, native, and other mixed in to make up the rest. Washington DC (to purposely give a confusing example) is 50% black, 40.2% white, and 3.2% asian. The nation as a whole is 72% white, 12.6% black, and 4.8% asian. While WA is closer to the national average than DC, you'd still need to find ~4x more black officers proportionate to the local makeup, and to bring people in would mean relocating them from some other state (easily hundreds of miles; keep in mind, WA alone is ~1/2 the area of the UK). And then in DC (also Baltimore, at 29% white, 63% black), you'd actually need to hire more white officers proportionally. The national average absolutely would not work in determining this unless you forcibly relocated everyone, and arguably would make the situation worse in the already-bad areas being highlighted on this forum whenever one of these situations happens.

[Vendetta]

Since Rotherham, you guys are exceptional too!

Yeah, but here's the difference: Nobody here is pretending that what happened in Rotherham isn't a problem. Hell, the police commissioner for South Yorkshire lost his job over it (despite the primary failure being on the part of the city council, not South Yorkshire Police).

Just imagine how quickly the US would go through senior police personnel if you tried that hard.

(PS: The concept of "American Exceptionalism" is that America is so special and different that no experiences from anywhere else in the world apply there, it's very commonly applied as a justification for doing nothing in the face of social problems, it was deployed against universal healthcare, for instance, "it could never work here because bullshit reason X")

[Thanas]

The US is part of the Western World. That means, even if you cannot transcribe things 1:1, if there is a difference in the thousands of percents, then there is obviously a problem. The consistent, logical response to "thousand times the rate of killings in Europe" is "there is something wrong with the police". When that assumption is backed with evidence (and the police abuse thread is full of them) then it would be kinda dishonest to:

No, the assumption shouldn't be "there is something wrong with the police" because there are dozens of things that could contribute to that outside of or in conjunction with that. For instance our much higher crime rate.

There isn't a crime rate over a thousand times higher than in the UK.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Fuck you. Put up or shut up. Me not thinking the evidence points to a systemic problem does not have anything to do with racism one way or the other.

Your entire line of argument would be far more convincing if it weren't for the fact that you blatantly ignored all of the links posted in this thread (particularly by KroLazuxy_87) that show you the statistical evidence you claim doesn't exist.

And yes, it has everything to do with racism, because that's at the heart of the discussion we're having, here.

[Broomstick]

- Make patrols double. Two officers alone are way better than just one guy who might get scared and do something regrettable.

Patrols used to be double - that's why in 1960's cop shows cops always had a partner. Not any more, partners were eliminated to save money so taxes could be cut. I agree, we should have cops partnered. It's safer for everyone.

- Require that at least 40% of the force are minority-recruited.

Define "minority" - I live in a city 85% African-American. Who is the minority there? Actually our local police do reflect local demographics pretty well, which is probably a better way of approaching the matter. Which might also be a factor in why we haven't had riots here since the 1960's and those who have turned out to protest current events have kept protests peaceful.

- Try to hire as many women as possible. You'd be amazed at how de-escalating female police members are (seen this myself in action)

That's partly because women simply don't have as much brute force at their disposal. We spend our whole lives being weaker than half the human race and learn to find alternatives to fisticuffs at a pretty young age.

None of the solutions are going to make this go away on its own, but I think they would greatly reduce the risk of violence (and now I am prepared for the great nitpick).

Anyone one of those would be helpful, and I'm pretty sure that the US police forces that are not currently having a problem with shooting people or injuring them probably have a few of those characteristics already.

[LaCroix]

As to the overall high level of police killings I agree a PART of the problem is the police themselves. But I again point out that those police are dealing with a population with a homicide rate five times that of the UK and the police are not causing that. Policing a population with that level of crime (and that is WAY down directly in line with more proactive and "militant" policing) is going to mean more intensive and proactive and yes even defensive actions that will lead to shooting incidents.

I don't know what kind of math you use, but homicide rate five times higher should not result in a police killing rate 2300 times higher. Unless the homicide rate was like, 500 times higher than the UK (making the discrepancy only a factor 4), you simply cannot use this as a valid argument. These data points (5x vs 2300x) are off by a factor of greater than 400. No way can such a light increase in one factor cause a massively exponential result if all other factors are roughly the same.

The only factor that is making things so much worse is that everywhere else, police is held accountable for their actions, and are bound to accept a certain risk to their wellbeing in the line of duty, instead of firing at the slightest provocation, real or imagined.

[Flagg]

Not at all what I said, imbecile. What I said is that white people, due to the fact that they have never lived in constant fear of the police, to the point that when their male children reach a certain age they have to talk to them about how best not to be beaten or outright murdered by the police, have not anything close to an inkling of understanding the mindset of the minority, but especially black, population in this country and thus don't get a fucking say in the matter because of your white privilege. You can condemn police brutality until the cows come home, but considering how many cases of outright police MURDER compared to the number of riots there are, the rioters have it heads and tails over the cops morally, who are usually so heavy handed when dealing with nonviolent protests, they spark the riots in the first place.

Yeah fuck that. The rioters and looters are fucking criminals who are shitting all over the memory of Freddie Gray and efforts at real police reform. I hope they review the videos from the rioting, identify every single looter, and throw the fucking book at them.

And I hope everyone who thinks like you and every murderer cop who got away with it (so like, 99% of them) gets hit by a truck. But then again, I'd feel really bad for the poor truckers who have to get all of the obese white chunks of racist out of their radiators (and of course, the PTSD).

The people who actually shit on every fucking victim of police brutality and murder are the ones who choose to dismiss the problem until they get an opportunity to call for the heads of the victims' community who can only seem to get any fucking attention when they loot and burn down a couple stores (doing far less damage than the number of riots on University campuses when one of their various sports teams wins or loses, I'm sure). So fuck off Ham<Numbers>.

[The Romulan Republic]

Wishing death and suffering on those who think riots are a bad thing that should be cracked down on and calling them all racists. You really are a piece of work. You lying, vicious moron. Obviously if someone disagrees with you they're a racist who deserves to die.

Also, I love how you talk about the minorities' mindset as if all minorities are a homogenous block who think the same way.

[Haminal10]

And I hope everyone who thinks like you and every murderer cop who got away with it (so like, 99% of them) gets hit by a truck. But then again, I'd feel really bad for the poor truckers who have to get all of the obese white chunks of racist out of their radiators (and of course, the PTSD).

The people who actually shit on every fucking victim of police brutality and murder are the ones who choose to dismiss the problem until they get an opportunity to call for the heads of the victims' community who can only seem to get any fucking attention when they loot and burn down a couple stores (doing far less damage than the number of riots on University campuses when one of their various sports teams wins or loses, I'm sure). So fuck off Ham<Numbers>.

Wishing death on people that disagree with you? You must be the toughest dude on the whole internets.

If you seriously think that the damage that this riot cause to Baltimore was limited to "a couple stores" being burned down, then your a fucking idiot who has no idea what he is talking about. It has taken more than 40 years for Baltimore to partially recover from 1968 riot, and there are still remnants of burned down buildings from that riot that were never rebuilt, and likely never will be. Baltimore will lose businesses, jobs, tourists, and residents because of the actions of the rioters and looters. I just hope that it doesn't take decades to recover this time.

[Thanas]

And I hope everyone who thinks like you and every murderer cop who got away with it (so like, 99% of them) gets hit by a truck. But then again, I'd feel really bad for the poor truckers who have to get all of the obese white chunks of racist out of their radiators (and of course, the PTSD).

The people who actually shit on every fucking victim of police brutality and murder are the ones who choose to dismiss the problem until they get an opportunity to call for the heads of the victims' community who can only seem to get any fucking attention when they loot and burn down a couple stores (doing far less damage than the number of riots on University campuses when one of their various sports teams wins or loses, I'm sure). So fuck off Ham<Numbers>.

Wishing death and suffering on those who think riots are a bad thing that should be cracked down on and calling them all racists. You really are a piece of work. You lying, vicious moron. Obviously if someone disagrees with you they're a racist who deserves to die.

Also, I love how you talk about the minorities' mindset as if all minorities are a homogenous block who think the same way.

You two are talking past each other. I am pretty sure Flagg doesn't think riots are a good thing either anymore than you think there is not a problem with police. What you really should be arguing about is if the point of no return - where no protests are effective leaving no other option except to riot - has been reached or not.

[Simon_Jester]

Will you PLEASE learn some mental flexibility? All this black/white thinking and kneejerk overreaction is getting tiresome.

Its true that I sometimes overreact. This is a touchy subject for me, but that's not a justification for inaccuracy.

As for black and white thinking, that depends on what you mean. I tend not to think people are all good or all bad, but I do think certain ideas are good or bad. I'm not a fan of moral relativism, and I make no apologies for that.

The problem is that you are so quick to pigeonhole other people's opinions as "bad," 100% bad, so bad that the only thing to do is deliver a condemnation dripping with righteous Internet fury.

Seriously, stop and try to understand what other people are saying. Who knows, maybe even ask them a couple of questions before you decide to start righteous-furying at them.

Especially when it leads you to conclude that people must be stupid because clearly they think stupid things because clearly the only interpretation of their words is the stupid one because clearly you can't be bothered to back up and think "wait, what else could he have meant?"

You said "If a faction of the protestors organized a serious, committed guerrilla underground devoted to waging urban warfare against a police force they see as an occupying army, and refrained from committing crimes against the populace, I would have very little to say against them except "In the long run I don't think this will work out for those guys."

This suggests that you have little or no moral objection to such a course of action. You may not be advocating it exactly, so I apologize for suggesting that you were. In hindsight, that was an error on my part.[/quote]In point of fact, I did the EXACT OPPOSITE of advocating it, I said "I don't think this will work."

I have a policy of not denying people the right to an organized violent resistance against an aggressive, abusive, occupying armed force, so long as this organized violent resistance restricts itself to military targets and does not abuse its own people.

My reasons for that have to do with, for example, not wanting to ever be in the position of backing the Gestapo against the Maquis, or anything similar. EVER. It's just not worth it.

Inadvertently failing to denounce a group of alleged 'terrorists' who only attack military targets and are fighting a group that seeks to enslave or destroy their people is...

Frankly, that's a risk I'll just have to accept.

However, I still find the fact that you could find nothing more to say against such a course of action deeply disturbing and indicative of both a logical and moral deficiency.

And if on the basis of what I just said you think I am logically and morally deficient, I have to question the credentials behind your right to make that judgment.

To spell it out as simply as possible:

Don't condescend.

Don't be a pious twit who can't be bothered to understand the other man's position before condemning it.

For people who have long felt oppressed and tyrannized by the 'police' set over them to rebel against those police... That is at least an understandable human reaction. I would not condemn it strongly because I can understand how people believe they have been tyrannized, and may seek to rebel against that tyranny.

It is understandable why many people in Iraq and Syria, having been raised in an impoverished society subject to western invasions and taught fundamentalist Islam from an early age, might join ISIS, behead people, and turn women into sex slaves. It is also understandable why many Germans, with their country in ruins, might embrace Nazism. That doesn't mean we can't or won't condemn it.

Do you condemn violently rebelling against ISIS or the Nazis?

Because that's basically what you're saying. You're treating the act of rebelling against perceived tyranny as co-equal with imposing tyranny.

US Policing is broken, it is a far worse thing than a few riots and yet it will see no change or reform until anger over police actions is not confined to a few stores in one city being looted. When every inner city burns due to anger with police actions, then you might see change, but not until.

Peaceful protest won't accomplish anything because it doesn't make people sit up and pay attention.

I suspect this is not the case. More riots result in more crackdowns and more suburban and rich voters stereotyping the urban blacks as a bunch of ignorant criminal scum. There is no reason to assume this trend does not continue linearly.

I mean, racial equality in the US made a lot more progress when it was dominated by large, well-organized peaceful protest groups in the early to mid-1960s than when the tone was dominated by violent groups and race riots in the late '60s and the '70s.

Then they appear to suck at it, since useful advice to avoid getting shot by the police like "don't become a drug dealer," "don't rob a liquor store and then set fire to it" and "don't try to steal a cop's gun" seems to not be getting through.

Right, because all black people do that, right? And since they all do it, then busting in the wrong house and shooting the owner is OK, since the owner is black and therefore a drug dealer, right? Shooting someone running away in the back is a-OK as long as they are black because they must be a drug dealer, right? Fuck you, you racist trash.

I wish these were the good old days when saying the shit you just said got you banned instantly you racist, walking, talking, piece of shit.

I wish Grumman hadn't said it, because I was going to make an observation like this:

There are behaviors that a certain fraction of African-Americans engage in, which make them more likely to end up in trouble with the police, and more likely to be seen as hostile or dangerous by the police. One can argue that this is the result of a chicken-and-egg problem, because the more one sees the police as a bunch of evil thugs, the more likely one is to make gestures toward them that indicate hostility, or to posture as a threat display.

That, however, is a totally separate thing from "hur hur they should obey the law." It's the difference between a society where children are brought up thinking that they should refer to policemen as "officers" versus one where they are brought up thinking that they should refer to policemen as "motherfuckers."

[Kamakazie Sith]

I don't think we agree on the problem. I see no statistically supported systemic problem in policing. What I see is crime overwhelmed communities being policed as required and the nature of that policing leading to what we see as an inevitability. Zero defect seeking is idiocy. Decrease the need for policing and the severity of that policing and you will have less of these incidents. There are lots of ways to do that, and they come from a lot of corners. But the short answer to your question is economics.

United States police kill more people per month than police in the United Kingdom have killed ever.

In the last three years, 3500 people in the US have been killed by police whilst only seven have been killed in the UK.

That is, adjusting for population, one hundred times the rate of death at police hands.

There is not 100 times the amount of crime in the United States.

Black people in the US are three times more likely to receive a custodial sentence and receive longer sentences for the same crimes than white people.

If you do not think that these are systemic problems in policing then you are either catastrophically ignorant or a moron of the highest order.

Vendetta,

In 2013, 2012, and 2011 over 6000 US cops were assaulted by attackers that used firearms. That's with only roughly 80% of US police agencies reporting. How many UK cops were assaulted by attackers armed with firearms? How many with knives? These are the valid data points. The amount of crime, population size, etc is obviously not a reliably data set because these factors usually do not coincide with police use of force. Most of the time police use force during alleged self defense situations. So, how about you provide those numbers. I'm genuinely curious.

[Alyrium Denryle]

You two are talking past each other. I am pretty sure Flagg doesn't think riots are a good thing either anymore than you think there is not a problem with police. What you really should be arguing about is if the point of no return - where no protests are effective leaving no other option except to riot - has been reached or not.

I will make the argument.

Certain municipalities and other scaled jurisdictions in the United States have long since reached the point that protests and lawsuits are ineffectual with regard to forcing meaningful policy changes. Ferguson is a good example. In that city, the entire civil infrastructure was devoted to the oppression and legal extortion of its poor and predominantly black citizens.

In Baltimore... well, lets just say that The Wire is accurate to the manner in which the police force operates. Numerous lawsuits with settlements and judgements in the tens of millions of dollars did not stop the practice of giving black suspects "Rough Rides", characterized by handcufffing suspects in the back of police vans, pointedly refraining from putting seat belts on them, and then driving in a criminally reckless manner so as to cause serious injury to the suspects. This has resulted in numerous cases of paralysis, skull fracture, and repeated deaths that were never criminally prosecuted (they rate 2nd degree murder charges when death results. Depraved Indifference to human life) and which have in the past sparked protest. No changes have been made, and that is the most likely cause of the injuries suffered by the victim in the current case. Other forms of police brutality are rampant, as are other offenses committed against the black and poor residents of the city (with the negative effects being additive or multiplicative for these two classes).

Non-violent protest in this case, and cases like it, are just giving the criminal authorities permission to continue rampant abuse.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You two are talking past each other. I am pretty sure Flagg doesn't think riots are a good thing either anymore than you think there is not a problem with police. What you really should be arguing about is if the point of no return - where no protests are effective leaving no other option except to riot - has been reached or not.

I will make the argument.

Certain municipalities and other scaled jurisdictions in the United States have long since reached the point that protests and lawsuits are ineffectual with regard to forcing meaningful policy changes. Ferguson is a good example. In that city, the entire civil infrastructure was devoted to the oppression and legal extortion of its poor and predominantly black citizens.

In Baltimore... well, lets just say that The Wire is accurate to the manner in which the police force operates. Numerous lawsuits with settlements and judgements in the tens of millions of dollars did not stop the practice of giving black suspects "Rough Rides", characterized by handcufffing suspects in the back of police vans, pointedly refraining from putting seat belts on them, and then driving in a criminally reckless manner so as to cause serious injury to the suspects. This has resulted in numerous cases of paralysis, skull fracture, and repeated deaths that were never criminally prosecuted (they rate 2nd degree murder charges when death results. Depraved Indifference to human life) and which have in the past sparked protest. No changes have been made, and that is the most likely cause of the injuries suffered by the victim in the current case.

Frankly, I think it is severe indifference on the part of the majority of voters. The people simply do not care. An example out of my area. Two of my coworkers have been involved in shootings that were ruled unjustified by the the same DA, Sim Gill. Both of my coworkers were terminated after this ruling but Sim Gill refused to prosecute them both. Sim Gill won the last election with 51% of the vote.

[Alyrium Denryle]

You two are talking past each other. I am pretty sure Flagg doesn't think riots are a good thing either anymore than you think there is not a problem with police. What you really should be arguing about is if the point of no return - where no protests are effective leaving no other option except to riot - has been reached or not.

I will make the argument.

Certain municipalities and other scaled jurisdictions in the United States have long since reached the point that protests and lawsuits are ineffectual with regard to forcing meaningful policy changes. Ferguson is a good example. In that city, the entire civil infrastructure was devoted to the oppression and legal extortion of its poor and predominantly black citizens.

In Baltimore... well, lets just say that The Wire is accurate to the manner in which the police force operates. Numerous lawsuits with settlements and judgements in the tens of millions of dollars did not stop the practice of giving black suspects "Rough Rides", characterized by handcufffing suspects in the back of police vans, pointedly refraining from putting seat belts on them, and then driving in a criminally reckless manner so as to cause serious injury to the suspects. This has resulted in numerous cases of paralysis, skull fracture, and repeated deaths that were never criminally prosecuted (they rate 2nd degree murder charges when death results. Depraved Indifference to human life) and which have in the past sparked protest. No changes have been made, and that is the most likely cause of the injuries suffered by the victim in the current case.

Frankly, I think it is severe indifference on the part of the majority of voters. The people simply do not care. An example out of my area. Two of my coworkers have been involved in shootings that were ruled unjustified by the the same DA, Sim Gill. Both of my coworkers were terminated after this ruling but Sim Gill refused to prosecute them both. Sim Gill won the last election with 51% of the vote.

That puts Salt Lake miles ahead of Baltimore.

[Kamakazie Sith]

That puts Salt Lake miles ahead of Baltimore.

Sure, but I do wonder how many of these protestors and rioters voted in the last election. I also wonder how many are able or allowed to vote.

[KroLazuxy_87]

I also wonder how many are able or allowed to vote.

I'm not sure what you're implying here. That they're too young? Unregistered? Being blocked from voting in some way?

That puts Salt Lake miles ahead of Baltimore.

Sure, but I do wonder how many of these protestors and rioters voted in the last election.

I don't think it would have helped for them showed up to vote.
First: As I posted earlier, America isn't a democracy.
Second: Thanks to ridiculous amounts of gerrymandering(source1 source2), those in power stay in power. It then doesn't matter what party they say they belong to - they're no longer held accountable for their actions/decisions by those they govern.

[Alyrium Denryle]

That puts Salt Lake miles ahead of Baltimore.

Sure, but I do wonder how many of these protestors and rioters voted in the last election. I also wonder how many are able or allowed to vote.

Why is that relevant? Even if a lot of them are not allowed to vote (presumably because of criminal records), the laws that prevent felons from voting were explicitly designed to keep black people from voting combined with a criminal justice system that disproportionately targets them.

Even if that were not an issue, Gerrymandering

http://alephblog.com/http://alephblog.c ... mander.jpg

They dont have elections that respond to any but overwhelming changes in voting patterns or public beliefs, which, given voting restriction laws...

Do the math