On a hill west of Sarikamish

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Sarikamish happened 100 years ago, three months, seven days. That's when the Ottoman Army was defeated. Was it right for Europe that Britain won instead of Germany? Probably not. But who cares. The Native Americans were a genocide. We killed them. We slaughtered their cultures, their independent people. We make amends today by honoring treaty rights.

The Ottomans slaughtered the Armenians. It was genocide.

Yeah, I'm drunk right now, and I'm not supposed to drunk post. But I decided to make an except: I was wrong. For years I argued on this board that the Armenian genocide wasn't a genocide. I had a Turkish friend. He used the handle Abdul Hadi Pasha. He cared about me when I was going through rough times, when I was homeless, when nobody else did. He didn't believe the Armenian genocide was a genocide. So I didn't either. I was thankful for his support, when I still wasn't out yet here. I transferred that. I defended Turkey everywhere.

I was wrong.

My father was right for a change. Russia had to fight the Turk because the Turk wanted to kill the Armenian.

I spent years here defending it, but I was wrong.

I'm sorry;

I was wrong.

It was a genocide.

The Armenians were killed in a genocide.


I was wrong.

The Armenians were killed in a genocide.

But so were the Native Americans.

[Gandalf]

This took a lot.

I applaud you.

[Channel72]

Out of curiosity - what exactly are the sort of arguments used to defend Turkey with regard to the Armenian genocide? In terms of what can be justifiably labeled genocide, the large scale murder of Armenians via the Ottomans seems pretty clear cut.

[American Blinders]
I at least can understand the controversy over labeling the fate of the Native Americans as a genocide, in the sense that there was no real official policy to exterminate the Native Americans - rather, there was centuries of abuse, relocation, and the occasional outright slaughter. The clarity of the situation is also in no way helped by the fact that "Native American" is a very broad term, and the extermination of any one particular tribe in itself may arguably constitute genocide - (but what is the minimum body count necessary here?)
[/American Blinders]

...but what the Ottoman government did to the Armenians (in a pretty short time period) was pretty much systematic and carried out via official policy. In that sense it wasn't much different from the Nazi Holocaust, except the Nazis had developed a better technological and bureaucratic infrastructure for committing mass murder on an unprecedented scale.

So... what exactly were the sort of arguments your Turkish friend used to deny the genocide? Was it just blatant outright crazy-land denial like we hear from Nazi Holocaust deniers? Or was it something more intelligent?

[K. A. Pital]

Out of curiosity - what exactly are the sort of arguments used to defend Turkey with regard to the Armenian genocide? In terms of what can be justifiably labeled genocide, the large scale murder of Armenians via the Ottomans seems pretty clear cut.

As usual, it's trying to move the line between genocide and ethnic cleansing. However, while history knows many other cases where nationalities were deported, resettled or even expunged from their homelands under threat of violence, and still largely survived, the Turks have driven the Armenians into the deserts where they simply died, and massacred them in other ways, so that the Armenian population was utterly decimated (up to 90% of pre-genocide population perished).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The Turkish genocide of the Armenians was NOT more highly planned than that of a Native American people. Taken in exclusion, the Ottoman planning consisted entirely of relocation: We will make them go someplace "safe" for our military needs. Abdulhadi covered this very well, he was a scholar of the Ottoman Turkish, a very different language than the modern Turkish which has been heavily reformed. The objective was not extermination, but forced relocation in which mass death was accepted. The argument was that the mass death was not accepted as desireable, and sincere efforts by the government made to prevent it, which broke down and failed. However, since the forced marches and ethnic cleansing continued even when the support mechanisms planned did not exist or had disintegrated, the leadership is still culpable of genocide. We did the same thing on the Trail of Tears and several other forced relocations of individual Native American nations, so perhaps the Native American genocide isn't the same in total, but say the Cherokee and the Armenian experiences are 100% identical.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I still find it very hypocritical that the US is going to call the Armenian genocide a genocide when we won't call the Trail of Tears a Genocide, but that's to be accepted.

[Simon_Jester]

Something to be unsurprised at, surely, though not something I'd call "to be accepted."

We can at least imagine and desire a world where the US government is honest enough not to commit that hypocrisy. Even if we obviously don't live there. Yet.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Something to be unsurprised at, surely, though not something I'd call "to be accepted."

We can at least imagine and desire a world where the US government is honest enough not to commit that hypocrisy. Even if we obviously don't live there. Yet.

I accept massive hypocrisy from all governments as a matter of course.

[Channel72]

The Turkish genocide of the Armenians was NOT more highly planned than that of a Native American people. Taken in exclusion, the Ottoman planning consisted entirely of relocation: We will make them go someplace "safe" for our military needs.

No, the Ottoman plans also consisted of outright massacres via firing squads, and a network of concentration camps - most of which were basically extermination camps. They were basically Auschwitz without the gas chambers and impeccable record keeping - instead of being gassed immediately you just got worked to death or shot or starved within a week. Armenians were even shipped en masse to concentration camps via rail. It was a lot more than just death marches, and overall much more akin to the Nazi Holocaust than the Cherokee Trail of Tears. Even on paper, the Tehcir Law officially involves more extensive measures to get rid of the Armenians. It's typically filled with euphemistic language for extermination, but so were the official minutes of the Wannsee conference. They even had an SS counterpart for fuck's sake. Seriously, it's like nothing Hitler did was even original.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I still don't believe any of that; I've just come to believe that it was a genocide anyway and just as morally wrong even if we still dispute the details. Forced relocate and death by massed starvation and exhaustion is just as bad as systematic death camps, that's what I've come to realize. It was still genocide either way, and it was still equally morally culpable and condemnable. I felt that it was appropriate for me to come out and admit I was wrong to argue to the contrary all those years ago, and that's why I made this thread.

[Channel72]

What the hell do you mean you "don't believe any of that"? Are you denying that the Ottoman government explicitly setup death camps? It's a matter of historical record. Ra's al-'Ayn is pretty much the Turkish equivalent of Auschwitz.

The really sad thing about the Armenian genocide is how poorly documented and relatively unknown it is to the general population in Western nations. We Jews have incredible first-world clout and endless lobbyists to make sure the Nazi Holocaust is remembered. The Armenians have.... um... shitty reality stars?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I have long been an adherent of the Turkish viewpoint. Today, I was simply trying to admit that even by the Turkish viewpoint, it was still a genocide and still just as bad as by the Armenian viewpoint, still just as morally wrong, still just as unacceptable.

[Channel72]

So... your grand, alcohol-induced epiphany amounts to basically the fact that you've decided to alter your understanding regarding the semantics of the word genocide?

[Simon_Jester]

Recognizing "well hell, that was genocide" is fairly good mileage for one epiphany?

The details of just how extensively planned said genocide was can be resolved separately in a later epiphany.

Anyway, I just found it interesting to read a multi-years-old retraction of, well, anything on the Internet. You don't see one of those every day; the norm is for people to just pretend they were never wrong about anything ever.

[Channel72]

Recognizing "well hell, that was genocide" is fairly good mileage for one epiphany?

The details of just how extensively planned said genocide was can be resolved separately in a later epiphany.

Perhaps Duchess needs some more scotch to completely forgo Ottoman apologia.

Anyway - this sort of attitude would never be tolerated for someone who said something like "well, I'm an adherent of the Aryan viewpoint. I don't really believe the Nazis setup death camps... but I agree that forced relocation of the Jews constitutes genocide." It's even more obnoxious because the Turkish government is so full of shit, still refusing to acknowledge what they did as genocide, despite the fact that the rest of the world knows what happened.

But you know... Armenians. Who cares about them anyway? Plus, Turkish food is awesome so the Ottoman's can't be that bad.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The only damnedfool thing I did was open my mouth.

[Ralin]

The really sad thing about the Armenian genocide is how poorly documented and relatively unknown it is to the general population in Western nations. We Jews have incredible first-world clout and endless lobbyists to make sure the Nazi Holocaust is remembered. The Armenians have.... um... shitty reality stars?

Jack Kevorkian?

As I recall he was of Armenian descent and the subject of Armenian genocide was a pet topic of his.

[Simon_Jester]

The only damnedfool thing I did was open my mouth.

I don't know; it requires a peculiar sort of integrity to care about retracting an opinion one has concluded is false, years after the fact when most have probably forgotten.

[nods respectfully]

[Dominus Atheos]

My father was right for a change. Russia had to fight the Turk because the Turk wanted to kill the Armenian.

I know you are already regretting posting, but can you expand on this point? Do you think the Ottomans would have carried out the Armenian genocide without WWI?

[Metahive]

The genocide was carried out because they partly suspected the Armenians to be in cahoots with the Russians, so no, I think it would have become a genocide otherwise. Harassment, discrimination and maybe forced relocation, but outright mass-murder is much harder to sell in peaceful times.

[Dominus Atheos]

The genocide was carried out because they partly suspected the Armenians to be in cahoots with the Russians, so no, I think it would have become a genocide otherwise. Harassment, discrimination and maybe forced relocation, but outright mass-murder is much harder to sell in peaceful times.

Does your post contain a typo? Your post makes slightly more sense if that is supposed to be wouldn't, but could work either way.

[Metahive]

It's missing a "don't" before "think actually.

[Simon_Jester]

On the other hand, the Turks effectively entered the war first by permitting German ships to pass through the the Turkish Straits into the Black Sea, whereupon the German ships proceeded to bombard Russian naval bases in the Black Sea. This was a violation of at least one international treaty, and one that already left the Russians laboring under a major disadvantage in peacetime, only for it to be violated against them the moment a war broke out.

Had Turkey not wanted to court war with the Russians, they were free to not do so.

Russia (and the other Allied powers) declared war on Turkey after this event.

[montypython]

On the other hand, the Turks effectively entered the war first by permitting German ships to pass through the the Turkish Straits into the Black Sea, whereupon the German ships proceeded to bombard Russian naval bases in the Black Sea. This was a violation of at least one international treaty, and one that already left the Russians laboring under a major disadvantage in peacetime, only for it to be violated against them the moment a war broke out.

Had Turkey not wanted to court war with the Russians, they were free to not do so.

Russia (and the other Allied powers) declared war on Turkey after this event.

Turkish entry was in all likelihood heavily influenced by the actions of the British wrt the battleship confiscations, otherwise there wouldn't be enough political capital to side with Germany under the circumstances.

[Thanas]

I applaud you for changing your mind of the overall situation, Duchess.

But if you still don't believe any of the specific action, I suggest you read the opinions of the German Military Mission to the Ottoman Empire. They back up the historical record cited by Channel72 completely and they leave no doubt that this was not some resettlement, but a clear strategy by the Turks to exterminate the Armenians. And it is also quite clear that the Turks knew that, that the High Command knew that and intended for the genocide to happen, because they were quite clear about that at tea time.

And if you still don't believe the words of the German Military Mission (though why would they lie in their cables to Berlin?) then I suggest you read what the German commanders on the ground wrote, who were quite shocked at what was going on.