Ukraine War Thread

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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by K. A. Pital »

Mange wrote:On a side-note... Something I read got me wondering. Despite the failure of the far-right presidential candidates in the Ukrainian presidential election (both candidates received less than two percent of the votes together), some people are still harping on the Ukrainian government as being "far right" and "neo-nazi". Well, there's a conference, "Russia, Ukraine, Novorossiya: Global Problems and Challenges", taking place in the Russian-occupied Crimea this weekend and which several separatist leaders (including Borodai) are attending. The conference is also attended by party leaders or representatives from European political parties such as Communautaire National-Européen, Jobbik, Samoobrona Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej, Ataka and others. What do you call that?
It is well known that Russia allows the European far right to attend such conferences, and has been for a while (they seem to be banking on Eurosceptic parties becoming stronger and possibly weakening or outright demolishing the EU from inside). This does not mean Ukrainians aren't far right too, since organized Nazi militias like the 'Azov battalion' are operating with impunity, being given heavy weaponry and operative freedom in the East:
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Imperialist right-wingers, nazis and fascists fight nazis, right-wingers and fascists. :lol: Well, there are also other people on both sides (the non-Nazi ordinary Ukrainian Army servicemen and the non-nationalist, left-wing volunteer formations in the East), but they are not defining the shape of the conflict.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Welf »

Stas Bush wrote:A huge improvement for those on the inside, but no improvement for those outside.
So it's white man's person's burden to take care of all the problems of the world? A country's problems are primarily the problems of its citizens and their business to solve. If foreigners help it's a nice thing, but not something hey have the right to demand (exceptions: crimes against humanity). It annoys me if people think whatever is on their mind is the most important thing in the world and everybody has to constantly talk about it.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Irbis »

Welf wrote:So it's white man's person's burden to take care of all the problems of the world? A country's problems are primarily the problems of its citizens and their business to solve.
No.

EU helped 10 countries that were to become its members in 2004. Look where they are now, and where countries no one else helped are despite not being far from the above 10 in the 90s. Helping your neighbours helps you in the end, or at least, if you're not going to help them but instead harass them, don't act hypocritical when they don't like you anymore.
Mange wrote:As for "100 tanks is enough to easily show up on NATO satellite photos". Regardless of the "100 tanks", do you really for a second think that NATO would reveal their satellite intelligence gathering capabilities in the open? Of course not! That's why image data from commercial satellites are shown.
*rolls eyes*

Yes, I am pretty sure Russia has no idea of NATO satellites capabilities. It's not like they have spy agencies, or satellite network of their own :roll:

Fine, then, feel free to produce photo of these 100 tanks made by commercial satellite. It's not like they are less visible than trucks, or Ukraine is full of shit, right?
On a side-note... Something I read got me wondering. Despite the failure of the far-right presidential candidates in the Ukrainian presidential election (both candidates received less than two percent of the votes together), some people are still harping on the Ukrainian government as being "far right" and "neo-nazi".
Unlike the nonexistent photos documenting pretty much any Ukrainian claim, there are hundreds of photos showing UPA flags, celtic neonazi symbols, SS ukrainian division insignias, ultra-nationalist calls, etc, etc. Maybe these poor souls are just misunderstood? :roll:
Well, there's a conference, "Russia, Ukraine, Novorossiya: Global Problems and Challenges", taking place in the Russian-occupied Crimea this weekend and which several separatist leaders (including Borodai) are attending. The conference is also attended by party leaders or representatives from European political parties such as Communautaire National-Européen, Jobbik, Samoobrona Rzeczpospolitej Polskiej, Ataka and others. What do you call that?
The difference is, these are eurosceptic right and left wing radical parties, but pretty much all of them distanced themselves from any fascist ideology and kicked people with racist views out, unlike oh-so-clean and innocent ukrainians. They might be Moscow's allies/puppets, but none of them are nazis. It's difference between flu and gangrene.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Thanas »

Irbis wrote:Fine, then, feel free to produce photo of these 100 tanks made by commercial satellite. It's not like they are less visible than trucks, or Ukraine is full of shit, right?
Will get right on that as soon as you pay me the money necessary to have a satellite dedicated to that problem.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Not sure what Fgalkin and Stas are yammering about, but NATO confirmed those are Russian tanks, at least 1000 of them, in the Ukraine. Are we calling this an invasion yet or are we still pretending this is a civil war?
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Mr. Coffee wrote:Not sure what Fgalkin and Stas are yammering about, but NATO confirmed those are Russian tanks, at least 1000 of them, in the Ukraine. Are we calling this an invasion yet or are we still pretending this is a civil war?
1000 tanks? Where did that come from? Not even BBC has that number.

I thought we were pretending it was an "anti-terrorist operation" instead? Since that's the official line from Kiev and the US is following that?
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by cosmicalstorm »

A 1000 russian soldiers probably was what he meant.
So are these the final weeks before WW3 or what? Lets hope nukes calm everyone down this time around.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Borgholio »

I highly doubt a global nuclear war will start even if Russia decided to launch a full invasion of Ukraine. Now if they didn't stop there and moved into Poland for instance...then yeah that could certainly do it. But unfortunately it doesn't seem like anybody cares enough about Ukraine to start a war over it.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Tanasinn »

World War III didn't start over Afghanistan, it's not going to start over Ukraine. I don't think Putin is crazy enough to attack a NATO member like Poland, Lithuania, or Estonia (despite supposed anxieties) which would necessarily provoke a shooting war.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Borgholio wrote:I highly doubt a global nuclear war will start even if Russia decided to launch a full invasion of Ukraine. Now if they didn't stop there and moved into Poland for instance...then yeah that could certainly do it. But unfortunately it doesn't seem like anybody cares enough about Ukraine to start a war over it.
I'd say fortunately, not unfortunately. No offense to the Ukrainians, but Ukraine isn't worth a nuclear world war.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Mr. Coffee »

[quote="Fingolfin_Noldor"]1000 tanks? Where did that come from? Not even BBC has that number.
[quote]

Are you fucking impaired, shitbag. I din;t ay "some random assholes said X"I said "NATO said their is at minimum 1000 Russian tanks in Ukraine", you dumb, motherfucker. Now, I know nost of you are illiterate fucks, but goddamn, son...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/29/world ... flict.html

There ya go, now, please shut the fuck up.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by The Vortex Empire »

Mr. Coffee wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:1000 tanks? Where did that come from? Not even BBC has that number.

Are you fucking impaired, shitbag. I din;t ay "some random assholes said X"I said "NATO said their is at minimum 1000 Russian tanks in Ukraine", you dumb, motherfucker. Now, I know nost of you are illiterate fucks, but goddamn, son...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/29/world ... flict.html

There ya go, now, please shut the fuck up.
MOSCOW — Supported by NATO satellite imagery showing Russian forces on the move in eastern Ukraine, its president accused Russia on Thursday of an invasion to aid the separatists, and his national security council ordered mandatory conscription to help counter what he called an “extremely difficult” threat.

The assertions by the president, Petro O. Poroshenko, came two days after he had met with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia in attempts to find a way to end the nearly six-month-old crisis roiling Ukraine. The conflict has escalated into the worst East-West confrontation since the Cold War, and the developments on the ground in the rebellious east along the Russian border suggested it would worsen.

Mr. Poroshenko scrapped a trip to Turkey to deal with the crisis and called an emergency meeting of the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council. He dismissed Kremlin claims that any Russian soldiers in Ukraine were volunteers who had sacrificed their vacations to help the heavily pro-Russian east suffering oppression from the Kiev central government.

Prime Minister Arseniy P. Yatseniuk of Ukraine urges the international community to freeze Russian assets, saying that Russian troops are on Ukrainian soil.
Publish Date August 28, 2014.

“Columns of heavy artillery, huge loads of arms and regular Russian servicemen came to the territory of Ukraine from Russia through the uncontrolled border area,” Mr. Poroshenko said. Mercenaries, along with regular servicemen, were trying to overrun positions held by the Ukrainian military, he said, according to a statement on his official website.

“The situation is certainly extremely difficult and nobody is going to simplify it,” Mr. Poroshenko said.

Anticipating the possibility of direct combat between Ukrainian and Russian troops, the council later announced it had reimposed mandatory military service, suspended last year.

Mr. Poroshenko spoke as NATO released satellite images to corroborate accusations that Russian forces were actively involved in Ukraine fighting. NATO also said that more than 1,000 Russian soldiers had joined the separatists battling the Ukrainian military.

“Over the past two weeks we have noted a significant escalation in both the level and sophistication of Russia’s military interference in Ukraine,” Brig. Gen. Nico Tak of the Netherlands, a senior officer in NATO’s military command, said in a statement. One image, dated Aug. 21, shows a Russian military convoy with self-propelled artillery moving in the Krasnodon region inside Ukraine. Another, dated Aug. 23, shows Russian self-propelled artillery units in firing positions near Krasnodon.

General Tak said the Russian soldiers were backing the separatists and “fighting with them.” He also said NATO estimated that about 20,000 Russian troops were deployed on Russian territory near the Ukrainian border.

The United States ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey R. Pyatt, said in a series of Twitter messages that Russian military assistance to the separatists had failed to help them sufficiently, “so now an increasing number of Russian troops are intervening directly in fighting on Ukrainian territory.” He also asserted that Russia had sent its newest air defense systems, including an effective weapon, the SA-22, into eastern Ukraine, “and is now directly involved in the fighting.”
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Aleksandr Zakharchenko, a rebel commander and the prime minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, said on Thursday that Russians, including active-duty soldiers on leave, had been fighting against Ukrainian government forces. Credit Maxim Shemetov/Reuters

In Washington, President Obama condemned the Russian actions, calling them part of a pattern of behavior that began months ago, which he said had already led to Russia’s political and economic isolation because of Western sanctions. Mr. Obama told a news conference that he expected that the United States and its European partners would take further measures, although he did not characterize the latest Russia actions as an invasion, or say what addition sanctions might be imposed, or when.

Col. Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the national security council, said that the Ukrainian military was planning a counteroffensive against the separatists and what he called “more and more Russians” but declined to provide details.

Separatists aided by Russia held the town of Novoazovsk, he said, with Ukrainian forces having retreated a day earlier. At a briefing in Kiev, Colonel Lysenko described that retreat as a regrouping of Ukrainian forces to better protect Mariupol, a key southern city now under threat.

Russia officials continued to deny sending soldiers or weapons to Ukraine. But the leader of the main separatist group in southeastern Ukraine said that up to 4,000 Russians, including active-duty soldiers currently on leave, had been fighting against Ukrainian government forces, Russian television reported.

“There are active soldiers fighting among us who preferred to spend their vacation not on the beach, but with us, among their brothers, who are fighting for their freedom,” Aleksandr Zakharchenko, a rebel commander and the prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk People’s Republic, said in an interview on Russian state-run television.

Mr. Zakharchenko said that 3,000 to 4,000 Russians had fought alongside separatists since the conflict erupted.

That assertion evaded the issue of direct Russian involvement by painting the soldiers as volunteers. It suggests, however, that Moscow still seeks to organize and to some extent control a force that could be operated at arm’s length with a backbone of local participation.


While the United States and its European allies have condemned Russia, they have not responded to criticism that the Ukrainian tactics against the separatists have included shelling civilian areas in rebel strongholds. The United Nations has estimated that 2,000 people have been killed in eastern Ukraine violence.

The United Nations Security Council met in an emergency session on Ukraine on Thursday afternoon, during which the United States and other Western allies expressed outrage at what they described as a pattern of deceitful Russian aggression.

“Instead of listening, instead of heeding the demands of the international community and the rules of the international order, at every step, Russia has come before this Council to say everything except the truth,” said Samantha Power, the United States ambassador. “It has manipulated. It has obfuscated. It has outright lied. So we have learned to measure Russia by its actions and not by its words.”

Russia’s ambassador, Vitaly I. Churkin, did not deny that Russians were fighting in eastern Ukraine but said they were volunteers. He said the Ukrainian government was “waging war against its own people.”

Ukraine and its Western allies have accused Moscow of opening a new southern front to relieve pressure on the besieged insurgent redoubts of Donetsk and Luhansk farther north.

A separatist defeat in the eastern part of Ukraine would deliver a significant domestic political blow to Mr. Putin, whose popularity in Russia soared when he annexed Ukraine’s Crimea Peninsula last March. But the confrontation in the south raised the specter for the first time in months of a direct confrontation between Ukraine’s forces and those of its giant neighbor.

In eastern Ukraine, fighting intensified in cities and villages along the path of the forces advancing from the Russian border in what Western and Ukrainian officials have called a multipronged attack. The Ukrainian soldiers in the region southeast of Donetsk are now surrounded, as pro-Russian forces appear to control a road to the west.

The armored columns that captured Novoazovsk and now threaten Mariupol, far from the fighting around Luhansk and Donetsk, serve the separatist aim of diverting Ukrainian forces to deal with that new threat. Western analysts say the advance may also be the start of a ground offensive to seize Ukrainian territory for a land route connecting Russia to Crimea.

Mr. Zakharchenko, who says he has Ukrainian citizenship, took over as prime minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic this month, replacing Alexandr Borodai, a Russian. Several other Russians who had figured prominently in the rebel ranks, including the military commander Igor Strelkov, have also dropped from sight in recent weeks.

In the interview with the official satellite channel Rossiya 24, Mr. Zakharchenko said that many former professional Russian soldiers had come to Ukraine as volunteers, out of a sense of duty. “Many of them have gone home, but the majority have remained here,” Mr. Zakharchenko said. “Unfortunately, some have been killed.”
1,000 troops, not 1,000 tanks.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

cosmicalstorm wrote:A 1000 russian soldiers probably was what he meant.
So are these the final weeks before WW3 or what? Lets hope nukes calm everyone down this time around.
1000 tanks and 1000 soldiers are like a world of a difference... 1000 tanks could conquer plenty of small countries around....
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Block »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
cosmicalstorm wrote:A 1000 russian soldiers probably was what he meant.
So are these the final weeks before WW3 or what? Lets hope nukes calm everyone down this time around.
1000 tanks and 1000 soldiers are like a world of a difference... 1000 tanks could conquer plenty of small countries around....
Meh. It's almost impossible to hold ground for long periods of time with just armor.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Mr. Coffee wrote:Not sure what Fgalkin and Stas are yammering about, but NATO confirmed those are Russian tanks, at least 1000 of them, in the Ukraine. Are we calling this an invasion yet or are we still pretending this is a civil war?
1000 tanks? Where did that come from? Not even BBC has that number.
Obama himself says this.

Nope, not an invasion. Those Russians are there on "vacation".

Is everyone from Russia just genetically full of shit or is it a cultural thing that they always have to lie their asses off when speaking to anyone that isn;t Russian? That may sound racist (it isn't unless you;re a fucktard), but seriously, what the fuck Russia.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by K. A. Pital »

Mr. Coffee wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Mr. Coffee wrote:Not sure what Fgalkin and Stas are yammering about, but NATO confirmed those are Russian tanks, at least 1000 of them, in the Ukraine. Are we calling this an invasion yet or are we still pretending this is a civil war?
1000 tanks? Where did that come from? Not even BBC has that number.
Obama himself says this.
Nope, not an invasion. Those Russians are there on "vacation".
Is everyone from Russia just genetically full of shit or is it a cultural thing that they always have to lie their asses off when speaking to anyone that isn;t Russian? That may sound racist (it isn't unless you;re a fucktard), but seriously, what the fuck Russia.
1000 troops, man. Not tanks. I am not sure what the fuck I have to do with that, too, since I said from the start Putin is gonna finish Ukraine off in a very literal sense, and nothing can stop him.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Mr. Coffee »

so then you fully admit Russia is openly involved in this?

Thanks, now stop being a fuckhead about it so you and Thanas can move the discussion forward.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Looking back, I owe Fgalkin an apology. I was meaning Vympel. My bad.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by K. A. Pital »

Mr. Coffee wrote:so then you fully admit Russia is openly involved in this?.
Sure. I was also explaining how the rebels are supplied through the border, and that Russian soldiers are sent in as volunteers under a 'paid leave' system. Because I have contacts in the warzone. Most people here do not.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Stas Bush wrote:
Mr. Coffee wrote:so then you fully admit Russia is openly involved in this?.
blah blah russia, blah blah blah, Putin, blah blah blah not giving a shit, blah blah blah comunism or some shit and still not caring, blah blah blah
Like I said, stop fucking jerking off on technicalities already. We already know the only more overt thing Russia can do is a naked invasion. Now that we both agree with this, shut the fuck up so you and Thanas can go back to calling each other fascists or whatever retarded shit you two are on about after (wanders off to check...), 44 fucking pages of stupid shit.

Move it along or lock the goddamn thread already, This bitch ceased being about some fuckers in Maida about 30 pages back, yo.
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Re: Ukraine Uprising/Conflict General (Livestream from Maida

Post by K. A. Pital »

Now that you said something worthwhile, I'll act on it.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Mr. Coffee »

About goddamn time...
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by K. A. Pital »

I didn't call Thanas a fascist too, but I guess you kind of missed that.

I do hate fascists and Nazis (much like Shep), which means people under Nazi symbols must simply be fucked no matter what. Anyone fighting under the Wolfsangel or Black Sun is only good when dead; much like the islamists from IS, Taliban, etc., those in my view are irredeemable. Even if it happens that they fight really bad people too.
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Mr. Coffee »

Yeah, sure, what the fuck ever. Advance the thread or lock the goddamn thing already.
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Vympel
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Re: Ukraine War Thread

Post by Vympel »

Stas Bush wrote:I didn't call Thanas a fascist too, but I guess you kind of missed that.

I do hate fascists and Nazis (much like Shep), which means people under Nazi symbols must simply be fucked no matter what. Anyone fighting under the Wolfsangel or Black Sun is only good when dead; much like the islamists from IS, Taliban, etc., those in my view are irredeemable. Even if it happens that they fight really bad people too.
I think explaining your positon to Mr Coffee is a waste of time. He's confused me and fgalkin (somehow) and can't keep track of who's saying what about Russia's involvement (I've already said its happenning, and so have you). Drinking too much fucking cough syrup or something.

In any event, BBC is reporting that Lugansk airport has fallen to rebel forces (abandoned by Kiev's troops)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29 ... icRSS20-sa
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