no charges for cop who shot kid holding bb gun

[Kamakazie Sith]

The fact that it turned out to be a toy isn't even the only point of contention here. Even if it was a real and loaded assault rifle, I don't think he deserved to get shot unless he had raised the rifle and pointed it at the police officer (thus presenting himself as an immediate threat).
I don't think ownership of an unlicensed weapon should result in an instant summary death sentence in any country.

Current US law and case law both support an officer firing on someone who isn't complying with commands and is armed with a firearm.

Law enforcement is also basing their training off findings from Force Science Institute which has basically found via their research that a person can point and fire at you before you can stop the threat which is why non-compliance is treated as hostile intent.

[Patroklos]

For those thinking the police have a duty to suck up being shot first in a situation like this if they thought he was turning to shoot someone else, lets say another little kid, would you still be insisting someone take the shot (as in being shot) before they open fire?

[Captain Seafort]

How about a table leg in a sack? Or does that also require a permit now?

Except that there was never a shotgun involved except in the mind of the person who actually had a gun.

Which is where it matters. The plod were told that bloke was carrying a shotgun. Ergo, as professionals, they had to treat him as though he was. They approached, ordered him to stand still, and he responded by turning towards them and raising what they had been told was a weapon. Based on the information available it was entirely logical for them to consider their lives to be in danger, and to open fire.

I also expect cops to be at the far end of the bell curve when it comes to self sacrifice and self control. That doesn't seem to much to ask of those tasked with carrying weapons and defending the peace.

They were approaching a bloke they'd been told had a firearm, rather than taking the sensible option of running as fast as possible in the opposite direction, because that's what the job they chose required of them. That, in my opinion, takes a lot of bottle. Waiting to get shot before opening fire would have been fucking stupid.

Even with a permit? I understand that the UK does still issue those.

It is possible to apply for a license to own a shotgun, and depending on the details of the license, some may permit said shotgun to be carried on private land (by farmers for pest control is the only reason I can think of for this). You will never get permission to carry a firearm down the high street.

However neither of these people had weapons (the BB gun could be argued, but that's a weak argument at best) and nor is merely carrying a weapon enough to provoke lethal force. Neither of these people did anything to provoke the shots fired at them.

Yes, they did - they pointed objects that the police had reasonable cause to to believe were firearms at the police. The fact that they turned out to be wrong is irrelevant, only that they believed otherwise and had reasonable grounds to do so.

It's good thing then competent law enforcement or military training is supposed to quash knee jerk responses and make people respond calmly even under stress instead of spray-and-pray on first sight of danger, then.

The plod did respond calmly. First by ordering the bloke to stop, then with a double-tap. Precisely as he should have done, given the circumstances and the information he'd been given.

So unless some way of identifying them is established (a radio tag of some kind perhaps?),

Make them out of brightly coloured plastic (green, red, whatever). The need to avoid confusion between toys and firearms trumps an individual's desire for a realistic imitation.

[Captain Seafort]

That British cop should have had the book thrown at him because it's not reasonable to expect people to avoid holding anything long or fist-sized in case some idiot cop mistakes it for a gun

Nor is reasonable for an armed response unit deployed to reports of an individual carrying a shotgun to expect an innocent member of the public to respond to "armed police, stop, stand still" (or similar) by turning and pointing things at at them.

[Grumman]

That British cop should have had the book thrown at him because it's not reasonable to expect people to avoid holding anything long or fist-sized in case some idiot cop mistakes it for a gun

Nor is reasonable for an armed response unit deployed to reports of an individual carrying a shotgun to expect an innocent member of the public to respond to "armed police, stop, stand still" (or similar) by turning and pointing things at at them.

Fuck that fascist bullshit. It is obscene to claim that everyone has an obligation to live in that that mindset, where any order shouted in hearing distance must be followed immediately, just in case they were referring to you, and turning to look at the speaker in confusion is treated as a mortal wrong.

[Captain Seafort]

Fuck that fascist bullshit. It is obscene to claim that everyone has an obligation to live in that that mindset, where any order shouted in hearing distance must be followed immediately, just in case they were referring to you, and turning to look at the speaker in confusion is treated as a mortal wrong.

If you want to respond to a plod with a gun shouting by pointing gun-shaped objects at them, then that's your decision, but don't expect much sympathy if you get yourself shot.

[Grumman]

Fuck that fascist bullshit. It is obscene to claim that everyone has an obligation to live in that that mindset, where any order shouted in hearing distance must be followed immediately, just in case they were referring to you, and turning to look at the speaker in confusion is treated as a mortal wrong.

If you want to respond to a plod with a gun shouting by pointing gun-shaped objects at them, then that's your decision, but don't expect much sympathy if you get yourself shot.

It's not a decision, you dumb fuck. Turning to look when someone surprises you is little more than an instinctive response. What you are talking about is basically the prank where you tell someone "Loser says 'What?'" except that if they say "What?" you kill them.

[Captain Seafort]

It's not a decision, you dumb fuck. Turning to look when someone surprises you is little more than an instinctive response.

Yes, it is a decision. A decision to reign in your curiosity that should be very easy to make when the words "armed police" are involved. Yes, the instinct is to look towards the shouting, but humans, unlike animals, are not controlled solely by their instincts.

[TronPaul]

It's not a decision, you dumb fuck. Turning to look when someone surprises you is little more than an instinctive response.

Yes, it is a decision. A decision to reign in your curiosity that should be very easy to make when the words "armed police" are involved. Yes, the instinct is to look towards the shouting, but humans, unlike animals, are not controlled solely by their instincts.

If I'm walking down the street and someone shouts, "Police, stop where you are." I do not know that they are the police and I do not know if they are talking to me or not. If they are shouting about someone else I most certianly want to turn around to see what the fuck is going on and if I am in danger.

[Captain Seafort]

If I'm walking down the street and someone shouts, "Police, stop where you are." I do not know that they are the police and I do not know if they are talking to me or not. If they are shouting about someone else I most certianly want to turn around to see what the fuck is going on and if I am in danger.

As a second or third reaction, sure. As a first reaction to that being bellowed at close range I'd fucking freeze and, especially if the introduction was "armed police", anything in my hands would stay glued to my side, not flapping about where it could be mistaken as a weapon.

[TheHammer]

The reality is, police aren't perfect. All you can do is make sure you have policies in place to try to minimize incidents such as this one. There will always be the stories where someone was shot and it was simply a tragic mistake despite police doing "everything right" from a procedural standpoint. And you have to make sure you have independent review boards to make sure that they did "everything right" despite the actual outcome.

[LaCroix]

As a second or third reaction, sure. As a first reaction to that being bellowed at close range I'd fucking freeze and, especially if the introduction was "armed police", anything in my hands would stay glued to my side, not flapping about where it could be mistaken as a weapon.

Great, so since I'm hearing impaired, and would only hear *bellow bellow* behind me, get scared, and turn around quickly to see what's wrong, I'd be in permanent danger to get legally shot in your perfect world.

I'm so glad that in the world I am living, police is your friend and helper, not a paramilitary organization.

Heck, I can even negotiate via hand signals with police officers if they meant me or the guy behind me to stop at their checkpoint, without getting immediately perforated for not slamming the breaks, and not even a stern word for doing so.

[Captain Seafort]

Great, so since I'm hearing impaired, and would only hear *bellow bellow* behind me, get scared, and turn around quickly to see what's wrong, I'd be in permanent danger to get legally shot in your perfect world.

It's not my world, and it's far from perfect - I'm simply explaining how life works to the idiots above who apparently think the plod should be psychic and all their actions should be evaluated based on an assumption of a complete understanding of all circumstances, rather than the inevitably incomplete information they're likely to have.

Bottom line, to take your example, if they've been told you're carrying a gun and you react as you described and point a gun-shaped object at them, then they'd be justified in shooting you. Shitty situation, but one with no fault on either side.

I'm so glad that in the world I am living, police is your friend and helper, not a paramilitary organization.

In any have decent country they're both - the former by fundamental intent and the latter (at least elements of them) by necessity.

[Cykeisme]

Fuck that fascist bullshit. It is obscene to claim that everyone has an obligation to live in that that mindset, where any order shouted in hearing distance must be followed immediately, just in case they were referring to you, and turning to look at the speaker in confusion is treated as a mortal wrong.

If you want to respond to a plod with a gun shouting by pointing gun-shaped objects at them, then that's your decision, but don't expect much sympathy if you get yourself shot.

Except you don't know it's a plod with a gun, unless you turn around and loo- **BAM!**

[Mr. Coffee]

Well, I guess in Jub's world, police need to be shot at first, before they can shoot back.

Yes, they accept that risk when they sign up for the job. Hell soldiers in Vietnam had stricter RoEs than some police forces do these days and they were conscripts. So excuse me for thinking a few more cops and a few less kids and dogs ought to get hurt.

By that retard logic since I now manage an automotive detail shop if I get run over by a dumbshit customer it's a risk I should just accept. Seriously, stop posting, jub. I can shoot you down while high as balls, son.

[Batman]

Let's see. Being a police officer does automatically mean you're bound to get into situations where criminals will try to hurt/kill you. How, exactly, does running an automotive detail shop automatically mean you'll get into situations where people try to run you over with an automobile?

[Mr. Coffee]

Let's see. Being a police officer does automatically mean you're bound to get into situations where criminals will try to hurt/kill you. How, exactly, does running an automotive detail shop automatically mean you'll get into situations where people try to run you over with an automobile?

You've never worked in a detail shop, have ya? The sheer amount of thugs and other assorted shit that comes through I probably see more drugs and guns than cops do.

In any case, my point was that it's every bit as unreasonable to ask a cop to tKe bullet in a situation where they have the power to prevent it as asking me to stand in the way of a customer's car when I have options available besides "get my dumb ass run over".

[Lord Relvenous]

Let's see. Being a police officer does automatically mean you're bound to get into situations where criminals will try to hurt/kill you. How, exactly, does running an automotive detail shop automatically mean you'll get into situations where people try to run you over with an automobile?

You've never worked in a detail shop, have ya? The sheer amount of thugs and other assorted shit that comes through I probably see more drugs and guns than cops do.

Way to completely avoid the question. When you were hired, your job description did not contain the words "customers may try to run you over". A police officer's job description does include "may be engaged in a firefight with criminals. "Just because you work at a shop which sounds like it's in a shit part of town or does cheap work doesn't make it representative of the normal expected duties of someone working at a detail shop.

And for everybody going on about how stupid it is to turn around when a cop yells at you:

Gelhaus told investigators that he could not remember if he identified himself as a police officer.

Sure, he "couldn't remember", never heard that cop out before (heh, unintentional pun). Even if we take him at his word, that leaves a very real possibility that all the kid heard was shouting behind him, with no indication of authority.

[Mr. Coffee]

Way to completely avoid the question. When you were hired, your job description did not contain the words "customers may try to run you over". A police officer's job description does include "may be engaged in a firefight with criminals. "Just because you work at a shop which sounds like it's in a shit part of town or does cheap work doesn't make it representative of the normal expected duties of someone working at a detail shop.

Bitch, do not step tpo me and say stupid shit like "way to completely miss XS" when your dumbass misses the fucking point because it sailed over your head at 30,000m and climbing.

Here's the point... Show me where it says anywhere in any part of the hiring paperwork for a cop that it says they have to take a bullet for your dumbass or anyone's dumbass. By that same retarded rational every swinging dick that joins the military, regardless of them signing up as infantry or waterboy, signed up explicitly knowing they were going to get shot, despite both signing up looking for money for college. Is it a risk? Sure, is it a serious fucking job expectation thas you and other retards in this thread make it out to be? Fuck no it isn't and I defy you to show evidence that says it is.

So pull your head from your ass, remove the false outrage because an American Cops did a bad thing, and re-approach this shit with something approaching objectivity, ya dig? Stupid asshole kid and his stupid asshole parents got him a toy gun that looked realistic enough I'd have shot that little fuck under the same circumstances. You want someone to blame? How about you blame the irresponsible assholes that put that realistic airsoft gun in his hands (Mom and Dad, yo), yhen go after the fuckers that sell that shit to minors, then go after the fuckers that made it legal to sell shit like that to minors, and the list goes on.

Or, you could grow the fuck u and realise that no matter how hard you or society tries, shit happens. Sucks to be that poor fucker's parents.

[Mr. Coffee]

Better yet, let's ask the board LEOs. KS, and all the other SDN Cops, how many of you signed up under the exsplicit understanding that being shot is at all a likely occurance for your profession?

[Lord Relvenous]

Way to completely avoid the question. When you were hired, your job description did not contain the words "customers may try to run you over". A police officer's job description does include "may be engaged in a firefight with criminals. "Just because you work at a shop which sounds like it's in a shit part of town or does cheap work doesn't make it representative of the normal expected duties of someone working at a detail shop.

Bitch, do not step tpo me and say stupid shit like "way to completely miss XS" when your dumbass misses the fucking point because it sailed over your head at 30,000m and climbing.

Here's the point... Show me where it says anywhere in any part of the hiring paperwork for a cop that it says they have to take a bullet for your dumbass or anyone's dumbass. By that same retarded rational every swinging dick that joins the military, regardless of them signing up as infantry or waterboy, signed up explicitly knowing they were going to get shot, despite both signing up looking for money for college. Is it a risk? Sure, is it a serious fucking job expectation thas you and other retards in this thread make it out to be? Fuck no it isn't and I defy you to show evidence that says it is.

So pull your head from your ass, remove the false outrage because an American Cops did a bad thing, and re-approach this shit with something approaching objectivity, ya dig? Stupid asshole kid and his stupid asshole parents got him a toy gun that looked realistic enough I'd have shot that little fuck under the same circumstances. You want someone to blame? How about you blame the irresponsible assholes that put that realistic airsoft gun in his hands (Mom and Dad, yo), yhen go after the fuckers that sell that shit to minors, then go after the fuckers that made it legal to sell shit like that to minors, and the list goes on.

Or, you could grow the fuck u and realise that no matter how hard you or society tries, shit happens. Sucks to be that poor fucker's parents.

I don't think the word "may" means what you think it means, judging by "signed up explicitly knowing they were going to get shot". I never said that. I said they "may be" engaged in a firefight. That is naturally dependent on position, area, experience, and a shit ton of other factors. But don't try to tell me that those who sign up for the police force aren't aware that a responsibility of the police force is to respond to violent (and sometimes ongoing) crimes.

Jesus, Coffee. You flip the switch to "outrage" and forget how to read.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Being injured or killed by another person is part of the risks associated with my job. However, that in no way means that I am obligated in giving them the first shot. Not sure how some people believe risk also is an expectation.

I think this is more of a clash between cultures and that is quite apparent from speaking with Thanas. The thing is I don't think those policies in Germany are wrong. They seem to have a much better social structure than the US, view firearms differently and have a lot less of them. This means you can afford to take risks like waiting to see if that illegal and rare AK-47 is fake. In the US, the AK-47 or firearms that resemble it are not rare nor are they illegal.

[Mr. Coffee]

I don't think the word "may" means what you think it means, judging by "signed up explicitly knowing they were going to get shot".

And how the fuck is that any different that what I said earlier about how I "may" get run over in my job? It's the same fucking thing, jobs have risk, but saying someone signed up for a thing knowing the risks and someone signed up knowing full well they would ace actuality instead of risk is to different things. Especially in the goulish context from shitbrick up there where he pretty much staes that "Oh, your a cop? Then you should get shot bin the line of duty, even if you have the means to prevent it, because um, professional risk".

I mean, goddamn, is there a single swinging dick on this entire goddamn board that has enough common sense to see how fucking retard you and that other hatfucker are being right now?

The kid in the OP had a toy gun that looked realistic enough in the same situation I'd have shot the fucker myself, no charges were filed because the DA looked at the evidence and concluded it's perfectly reasonable to assume that "toy" was real enough looking to warrant a deadly force response, yet here we are still dealing with you dense fucks trying to find some way, any way, to blame the cop for what was a massive accident that would have been easily preventable if milsim pussies would shut the fuck up about airsoft toys already.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, much like Mike and fgalkin, I have to say I agree with Mr. Coffee.

Accepting a professional risk does not mean you are now forced to accept that the risk will happen to you, with no right to defend yourself or minimize the danger.

Soldiers are still allowed to duck incoming bullets, or shoot back. Mine workers are allowed to try to NOT get crushed by lethal cave-ins, even though that's obviously a 'professional risk' associated with running a mine. Firefighters are allowed to try to not die in a fire. And so on.

Likewise, police are allowed to try to not get shot by criminals, and to take reasonable steps to defend their own life. When that involves shooting a random person for having a cell phone or whatever it's wrong. But when the person is carrying a thing explicitly designed to look like a gun and acts in a way that would let them get in the first shot if it was a gun... well, the "I actually thought I was defending myself" argument has some real weight.

[Raw Shark]

One time I had a jumpy cop draw his gun and point it at me because he asked me what I was holding (an apple) and I instinctively held it up to show him, in broad daylight. If I had more melanin than I do, I probably would've taken six in the chest.