ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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sarevok2
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by sarevok2 »

Gandalf wrote:It's also nice to see the old arguments from 2002 appearing again. My favourite being that regardless of political affiliation, refusing to do "something*" about this renders one a horrible human being, and that it's now time to reinvade Iraq to "finish the job/play for keeps/other tough guy phrasing."

*Any style of intervention as long as it's militaristic.
What do you think should be done ? This is an honest question. I myself am undecided on this.
Metahive wrote:Attacking ISIS troops is just scratching at the symptoms. The root causes responsible for their existence and current strength and popularity have to be dealt with, otherwise they just return some time later. Those root causes are, among other things, the West fucking with the Middle East and...bombing people there with lucky abandon, so you do the math what more bombings will do. Hint, look at Viet Nam and Kambodia.
Yes. This is not a problem that can waved away in a few years of military action. But the thing is the cancer of islamic extremism has infected muslim countries and it is not clear how it can be removed.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by ray245 »

Gandalf wrote:It's also nice to see the old arguments from 2002 appearing again. My favourite being that regardless of political affiliation, refusing to do "something*" about this renders one a horrible human being, and that it's now time to reinvade Iraq to "finish the job/play for keeps/other tough guy phrasing."

*Any style of intervention as long as it's militaristic.
If the world is willingly to tolerate a genocide on the scale of what happened in Rwanda without any sort of intervention, then the world can afford to do nothing.

Ideally, the current situation in Iraq calls for some UN intervention if the security council can all agree to use all available means to combat the IS.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Rwanda shouldn't be an example we follow.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Channel72 »

PhilosopherOfSorts wrote: As I said on another forum, this is the Bad End that the U.S. earned way back in 2003, Iraq has become the millstone around our collective neck that drowns us all, forever. Any "stability" we bring will last precisely as long as it takes for us to leave, then the region will devolve back into a tribal/sectarian conflict with roots that go back a thousand years or more.
Don't be so dramatic. There's nothing physically impossible, or even logistically infeasible, about setting up and running a solid, functioning government in Mesopotamia. The Baathists did it (even before they started brutalizing their own citizens) and before that, Faisal II had a pretty stable regime for like 20 years. Oh, and before that, the fucking Ottomans had that shit under control for centuries.

Yes, there's major sectarian problems. The non-Arab Kurds have always been somewhat of a separatist element; a very reasonable argument can be made that they should have their own state. But the failure of the US to setup a functioning state is not some pre-ordained, inevitable, karmic result of Western meddling. It's because the Bush Administration (and Obama after that) have been so fucking incompetent at setting up this new government, and because the US is so slow to respond to any serious threats despite the fact that a government is most vulnerable in it's infancy. Let me remind you all that Obama was warned, again and again about ISIS, years ago, and simply sat around doing nothing about it, hoping the problem would just go away.

Basically, the Bush administration had no serious long-term plans for Iraq beyond the vague notion of introducing democracy, and Obama's entire career has literally been built on top of criticizing the Iraq war - so politically his goals were to leave Iraq ASAP and then distance himself from it as much as possible.

A Pan-Arab Mesopotamian government can work - it has before. I just don't know if the current administration is competent enough to see it through.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Broomstick »

Metahive wrote:Attacking ISIS troops is just scratching at the symptoms. The root causes responsible for their existence and current strength and popularity have to be dealt with, otherwise they just return some time later. Those root causes are, among other things, the West fucking with the Middle East and...bombing people there with lucky abandon, so you do the math what more bombings will do. Hint, look at Viet Nam and Kambodia.
Sometimes, all you can do it “scratch” at the symptoms. As far as I can tell, the only people with an “answer” for the region is ISIS, whose solution can be summed up as “submit to us or die”.

Is bombing alone going to make things all better? No. But in some circumstances it can buy time by stopping the advance of ISIS. If that allows a few ten thousands of potential genocide victims escape to somewhere else it's not all bad.

Don't forget, it's not just the US with bombs. If the West mysteriously disappeared tomorrow the region would still be a powderkeg. It's not the West using chemical weapons against civilians. It's not the West generating mass graves and herding people onto mountaintops to starve.
Channel72 wrote:
PhilosopherOfSorts wrote: As I said on another forum, this is the Bad End that the U.S. earned way back in 2003, Iraq has become the millstone around our collective neck that drowns us all, forever. Any "stability" we bring will last precisely as long as it takes for us to leave, then the region will devolve back into a tribal/sectarian conflict with roots that go back a thousand years or more.
Don't be so dramatic. There's nothing physically impossible, or even logistically infeasible, about setting up and running a solid, functioning government in Mesopotamia. The Baathists did it (even before they started brutalizing their own citizens) and before that, Faisal II had a pretty stable regime for like 20 years. Oh, and before that, the fucking Ottomans had that shit under control for centuries.

….[snip]....

Basically, the Bush administration had no serious long-term plans for Iraq beyond the vague notion of introducing democracy, and Obama's entire career has literally been built on top of criticizing the Iraq war - so politically his goals were to leave Iraq ASAP and then distance himself from it as much as possible.

A Pan-Arab Mesopotamian government can work - it has before. I just don't know if the current administration is competent enough to see it through.
Part of the problem, as I see it, is this notion that has somehow gotten around that such a government has to be imposed, from without. That doesn't work, as we've seen. The governments in that region that actually have been stable have all come from within or next to that region.

The other thing that needs to be sorted out is which the world values more, stability or democracy. You can have a stable democracy, but democracy does not in any way guarantee stability. There are societies that are more stable under an autocrat than a parliament or congress.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by ray245 »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Rwanda shouldn't be an example we follow.
Currently, without any further military intervention, I highly doubt that you can prevent a repeat of Rwanda. If Americans and the west feels that they have no obligation to deploy any military forces to stall and defeat IS, then that is a consequences they must be prepared to bare. The only solution to resolve this issue would probably be passing a UN resolution for military intervention in Iraq and Syria. That would give military intervention in Iraq the legitimacy it needed.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Broomstick wrote:Part of the problem, as I see it, is this notion that has somehow gotten around that such a government has to be imposed, from without. That doesn't work, as we've seen. The governments in that region that actually have been stable have all come from within or next to that region.
The Baathist party came into power because the CIA and UK helped them out with the 1968 coup, and the monarchy under Faisal was supported/created by the British Empire. Both of those regimes were stable for over a decade (the Ba'ath regime lasted multiple decades despite a vicious war with Iran, and was stable until US-imposed sanctions).

I'm not arguing that Western nation-building is great or something - I'm saying just because a Middle Eastern government is created/supported by Western powers doesn't mean it has to fail for some reason. And at this point, it's either we impose a functioning government on Iraq, or watch as hundreds of thousands of Shi'a are slaughtered mercilessly. (Or I suppose we could sit back and just let Iran take care of this...)
The other thing that needs to be sorted out is which the world values more, stability or democracy. You can have a stable democracy, but democracy does not in any way guarantee stability. There are societies that are more stable under an autocrat than a parliament or congress.
That goes without saying. The most stable regimes with the highest per-capita GDPs and best standard of living in the MidEast are the autocratic Gulf states.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Borgholio »

I think it should be mentioned that just because a nation is a dictatorship doesn't automatically mean it's a hellhole. If the middle-east is stable under monarchies or dictatorships, then as long as they have "reasonable" levels of human and civil rights then I think we could settle with that.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Arab Socialism and Baathism were already a strong force in the Middle East well before any meddling.

Unless the regime has some pre-existing support base inside the country, it will not be stable.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Borgholio wrote:I think it should be mentioned that just because a nation is a dictatorship doesn't automatically mean it's a hellhole. If the middle-east is stable under monarchies or dictatorships, then as long as they have "reasonable" levels of human and civil rights then I think we could settle with that.
Sure. Life in Kuwait is pretty damn good (at least if you're a Kuwaiti citizen). Free education, government stipend, great social safety net, high standard of living, etc. Altnough, they do have a Parliament, but the Royal Family holds considerably more political and economic sway than European constitutional monarchies.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Stas Bush wrote:Arab Socialism and Baathism were already a strong force in the Middle East well before any meddling.

Unless the regime has some pre-existing support base inside the country, it will not be stable.
The Dawa party does have major existing support inside Iraq (not to mention support from Iran). Most of Iraq is Shi'a, you know. It's just that Al-Maliki is weak and useless, and wasn't prepared for the blitzkrieg-like progress of Sunni militants with zero regard for human life, and Obama decided to pretend ISIS didn't exist for like 2 years.

The Dawa government could work, if we proactively push back ISIS advances and install someone who doesn't suck so much.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Channel72 wrote:The Dawa government could work, if we proactively push back ISIS advances and install someone who doesn't suck so much.
Well let's see the record: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria. None of them have a functional government now. None of them are stable. They are full of islamists, hardcore ones, and it is unlikely you can turn back the clock. Why? Because even Assad clan couldn't, and they were ready to slaughter islamists by the tens of thousands. You think you can stabilize these nations? Are you sure?
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by PhilosopherOfSorts »

Channel72 wrote:
PhilosopherOfSorts wrote: As I said on another forum, this is the Bad End that the U.S. earned way back in 2003, Iraq has become the millstone around our collective neck that drowns us all, forever. Any "stability" we bring will last precisely as long as it takes for us to leave, then the region will devolve back into a tribal/sectarian conflict with roots that go back a thousand years or more.
Don't be so dramatic. There's nothing physically impossible, or even logistically infeasible, about setting up and running a solid, functioning government in Mesopotamia. The Baathists did it (even before they started brutalizing their own citizens) and before that, Faisal II had a pretty stable regime for like 20 years. Oh, and before that, the fucking Ottomans had that shit under control for centuries.

Yes, there's major sectarian problems. The non-Arab Kurds have always been somewhat of a separatist element; a very reasonable argument can be made that they should have their own state. But the failure of the US to setup a functioning state is not some pre-ordained, inevitable, karmic result of Western meddling. It's because the Bush Administration (and Obama after that) have been so fucking incompetent at setting up this new government, and because the US is so slow to respond to any serious threats despite the fact that a government is most vulnerable in it's infancy. Let me remind you all that Obama was warned, again and again about ISIS, years ago, and simply sat around doing nothing about it, hoping the problem would just go away.

Basically, the Bush administration had no serious long-term plans for Iraq beyond the vague notion of introducing democracy, and Obama's entire career has literally been built on top of criticizing the Iraq war - so politically his goals were to leave Iraq ASAP and then distance himself from it as much as possible.

A Pan-Arab Mesopotamian government can work - it has before. I just don't know if the current administration is competent enough to see it through.

What can happen and what I think will happen are two different things. I'd love to be wrong here, I'd love to see Iraq become a stable, Western-style democracy, or even a stable dictatorship that's not committing genocide. But I've been paying attention, so I don't think there's a happy ending here, because my government has been consistently pissing away every chance at one since 2003, and arguably before that.

Come talk to me in another decade or so, we'll see how it turns out.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by ArmorPierce »

cosmicalstorm wrote: Erdogan’s Turkey: Less nationalism, more Islam
http://www.timesofisrael.com/erdogans-t ... ore-islam/

Erdogan taking Turkey back 1,000 years with ‘reforms’
http://nypost.com/2013/10/04/turkeys-er ... w-reforms/

Not calling IS terrorists.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... onsul.html#

The Islamization of Turkey’s Foreign Ministry
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... istry.html#
I feel like a lot of the blame falls on the west itself for Turkey's slide backwards.

For the same reason that the west failed Iraq it failed Turkey due to the lack of understanding of the complex political power structure and land scape.

Turkey was making efforts towards continuous westernization along with petitioning for joining the EU which was met with them being dragged along and demands made for Turkey to reduce its military presence in its political landscape. Unfortunately the military acted as the secular counter balance and had in the past acted to ensure secularism continues.

Turkey basically was drove into the arms of the religious right that the military kept at bay. But hey, that's democracy right?
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Broomstick »

On a more positive note, it seems a few Yezidis have been rescued from Mt. Sinjar.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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ArmorPierce wrote:
cosmicalstorm wrote: Erdogan’s Turkey: Less nationalism, more Islam
http://www.timesofisrael.com/erdogans-t ... ore-islam/

Erdogan taking Turkey back 1,000 years with ‘reforms’
http://nypost.com/2013/10/04/turkeys-er ... w-reforms/

Not calling IS terrorists.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... onsul.html#

The Islamization of Turkey’s Foreign Ministry
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/origina ... istry.html#
I feel like a lot of the blame falls on the west itself for Turkey's slide backwards.

For the same reason that the west failed Iraq it failed Turkey due to the lack of understanding of the complex political power structure and land scape.

Turkey was making efforts towards continuous westernization along with petitioning for joining the EU which was met with them being dragged along and demands made for Turkey to reduce its military presence in its political landscape. Unfortunately the military acted as the secular counter balance and had in the past acted to ensure secularism continues.

Turkey basically was drove into the arms of the religious right that the military kept at bay. But hey, that's democracy right?
Bullshit. Turkey had a goal, to join the EU. They were given a set of standards to meet before they could, not told how they had to get to those standards. The Turks could have chosen a slow, measured approach and worked towards it, but chose the path that they took.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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sarevok2 wrote:What do you think should be done ? This is an honest question. I myself am undecided on this.
I'm still stuck for ideas, but I think that the military solutions I've heard so far would be worse than doing nothing. You can't air strike your way to peace, and the last ten years have shown that occupying Iraq is unfeasible for a great many reasons.

Like Metahive stated, ISIL is an effect of a far greater cause. What is the cause?
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Grumman »

Gandalf wrote:I'm still stuck for ideas, but I think that the military solutions I've heard so far would be worse than doing nothing. You can't air strike your way to peace...
Is there a reason we can't airstrike our way to a stalemate? Isn't killing armies on the move the sort of thing we're really, really good at? Or to put it another way, is there a reason ISIS is less vulnerable to getting bombed to pieces than the Iraqi army was during Operation Desert Storm?
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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None, but it won't actually stop Isis anymore then it stopped north Vietnam or the UK. You will destroy their capability to muster for as long as you keep bombing. These guys have no reason to surrender though, and will scatter and return.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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If bombing ISIS slows them down enough for the Yezidis to escape to somewhere safer and give the Kurds time to arm then arguably it is worthwhile. What should be done after that is a different question.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yeah- but you're explicitly advocating a short-term tactical goal with that.

Aerial bombardment is pretty good at achieving tactical goals, "protect this specific group from this other group for one week" or whatever. It's inadequate to achieve most strategic goals like "eliminate this group's political dominance of this area."
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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What's wrong with a short-term goal?

I view saving a few tens of thousands of lives and halting the advance of something like ISIS a good start. If we just throw our hands up and say "well, no long term goal, do nothing" it certainly won't improve the situation.

I mean, hell, if we just get the Yezidis out of harm's way but their territory still falls to ISIS I'd still view it as a net positive. Sure, it would suck for them to be uprooted and have to go elsewhere but they'd hardly be the first to do that and some folks wind up just as well off, or even better off, than before. It sure as hell beats being executed or buried alive.
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

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Another 30 year war?
Sherman’s 300,000 and the Caliphate’s 3 Million

Posted By David P. Goldman On August 12, 2014 @ 3:31 am In Uncategorized | No Comments


Caliphate puts men to the meat-grinder

Crossposted from Asia Times Online

General William Tecumseh Sherman burned the city of Atlanta in 1864. He warned: “I fear the world will jump to the wrong conclusion that because I am in Atlanta the work is done. Far from it. We must kill three hundred thousand I have told you of so often, and the further they run the harder for us to get them.” Add a zero to calibrate the problem in the Levant today. War in the Middle East is less a strategic than a demographic phenomenon, whose resolution will come with the exhaustion of the pool of potential fighters.

The Middle East has plunged into a new Thirty Years War, allows Richard Haass, the president of the Council of Foreign Relations. “It is a region wracked by religious struggle between competing traditions of the faith. But the conflict is also between militants and moderates, fueled by neighboring rulers seeking to defend their interests and increase their influence. Conflicts take place within and between states; civil wars and proxy wars become impossible to distinguish. Governments often forfeit control to smaller groups – militias and the like – operating within and across borders. The loss of life is devastating, and millions are rendered homeless,” he wrote on July 21.
Well and good: I predicted in 2006 that the George W Bush administration’s blunder would provoke another Thirty Years War in the region, and repeated the diagnosis many times since. But I doubt that Mr Haass (or Walter Russell Mead, who cited the Haass article) has given sufficient thought to the implications.

How does one handle wars of this sort? In 2008 I argued for a “Richelovian” foreign policy, that is, emulation of the evil genius who guided France to victory at the conclusion of the Thirty Years War in 1648. Wars of this sort end when two generations of fighters are killed. They last for decades (as did the Peloponnesian War, the Napoleonic Wars and the two World Wars of the 20th century) because one kills off the fathers die in the first half of the war, and the sons in the second.

This new Thirty Years War has its origins in a demographic peak and an economic trough. There are nearly 30 million young men aged 15 to 24 in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Iran, a bulge generation produced by pre-modern fertility rates that prevailed a generation ago. But the region’s economies cannot support them. Syria does not have enough water to support an agricultural population, and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of farmers into tent cities preceded its civil war. The West mistook the death spasms of a civilization for an “Arab Spring,” and its blunders channeled the youth bulge into a regional war.

The way to win such a war is by attrition, that is, by feeding into the meat-grinder a quarter to a third of the enemy’s available manpower. Once a sufficient number of who wish to fight to the death have had the opportunity to do so, the war stops because there are insufficient recruits to fill the ranks. That is how Generals Grant and Sherman fought the American Civil War, and that is the indicated strategy in the Middle East today.

It is a horrible business. It was not inevitable. It came about because of the ideological rigidity of the Bush Administration compounded by the strategic withdrawal of the Obama administration. It could have been avoided by the cheap and simple expedient of bombing Iran’s nuclear program and Revolutionary Guards bases, followed by an intensive subversion effort aimed at regime change in Teheran. Former Vice President Dick Cheney advocated this course of action, but then Secretary of State Condileeza Rice persuaded Bush that the Muslim world would never forgive America for an attack on another Muslim state.

The Pentagon, meanwhile, warned Bush that America’s occupation army in Iraq had become hostage to Iranian retaliation: if America bombed Iran, Iran could exact vengeance in American blood in the cities of Iraq. Then Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Mike Mullen told Charlie Rose on March 16, 2009: “What I worry about in terms of an attack on Iran is, in addition to the immediate effect, the effect of the attack, it’s the unintended consequences. It’s the further destabilization in the region. It’s how they would respond. We have lots of Americans who live in that region who are under the threat envelope right now [because of the] capability that Iran has across the Gulf. So, I worry about their responses and I worry about it escalating in ways that we couldn’t predict.”

The Bush Administration was too timid to take on Iraq; the Obama administration views Iran as a prospective ally. Even Neville Chamberlain did not regard Hitler as prospective partner in European security. But that is what Barack Obama said in March to journalist Jeffrey Goldberg: “What I’ll say is that if you look at Iranian behavior, they are strategic, and they’re not impulsive. They have a worldview, and they see their interests, and they respond to costs and benefits. And that isn’t to say that they aren’t a theocracy that embraces all kinds of ideas that I find abhorrent, but they’re not North Korea. They are a large, powerful country that sees itself as an important player on the world stage, and I do not think has a suicide wish, and can respond to incentives.” Bush may have been feckless, but Obama is mad.

With Iran neutralized, Syrian President Basher Assad would have had no choice but to come to terms with Syria’s Sunni majority; as it happens, he had the firepower to expel millions of them. Without the protection of Tehran, Iraq’s Shia would have had to compromise with Sunnis and Kurds. Iraqi Sunnis would not have allied with ISIS against the Iranian-backed regime in Baghdad. A million or more Iraqis would not have been displaced by the metastasizing Caliphate.

The occupation of Iraq in the pursuit of nation-building was colossally stupid. It wasted thousands of lives and disrupted millions, cost the better part of a trillion dollars, and demoralized the American public like no failure since Vietnam-most of all America’s young people. Not only did it fail to accomplish its objective, but it kept America stuck in a tar-baby trap, unable to take action against the region’s main malefactor. Worst of all: the methods America employed in order to give the Iraq war the temporary appearance of success set in motion the disaster we have today. I warned of this in a May 4, 2010 essay entitled, General Petraeus’ Thirty Years War (Asia Times Online, May 4, 2010).


The great field marshal of the Thirty Years War of 1618-1648, Albrecht von Wallenstein, taught armies to live off the land, and succeeded so well that nearly half the people of Central Europe starved to death during the conflict. General David Petraeus, who heads America’s Central Command (CENTCOM), taught the land to live off him. Petraeus’ putative success in the Iraq “surge” of 2007-2008 is one of the weirder cases of Karl Marx’s quip of history repeating itself first as tragedy second as farce. The consequences will be similar, that is, hideous.

Wallenstein put 100,000 men into the field, an army of terrifying size for the times, by turning the imperial army into a parasite that consumed the livelihood of the empire’s home provinces. The Austrian Empire fired him in 1629 after five years of depredation, but pressed him back into service in 1631. Those who were left alive joined the army, in a self-feeding spiral of destruction on a scale not seen in Europe since the 8th century. Wallenstein’s power grew with the implosion of civil society, and the Austrian emperor had him murdered in 1634.

Petraeus accomplished the same thing with (literally) bags of money. Starting with Iraq, the American military has militarized large parts of the Middle East and Central Asia in the name of pacification. And now America is engaged in a grand strategic withdrawal from responsibility in the region, leaving behind men with weapons and excellent reason to use them.


There is no way to rewind the tape after the fragile ties of traditional society have been ripped to shreds by war. All of this was foreseeable; most of it might have been averted. But the sordid players in this tragicomedy had too much reputation at stake to reverse course when it still was possible. Now they will spend the declining years of their careers blaming each other.

Three million men will have to die before the butchery comes to an end. That is roughly the number of men who have nothing to go back to, and will fight to the death rather than surrender.

ISIS by itself is overrated. It is a hoard enhanced by captured heavy weapons, but cannot fly warplanes in a region where close air support is the decisive factor in battle. The fighters of the Caliphate cannot hide under the jungle canopy like the North Vietnamese. They occupy terrain where aerial reconnaissance can identify every stray cat. The Saudi and Jordanian air forces are quite capable of defending their borders. Saudi Arabia has over 300 F-15's and 72 Typhoons, and more than 80 Apache attack helicopters. Jordan has 60 F16's as well as 25 Cobra attack helicopters. The putative Caliphate can be contained; it cannot break out into Saudi Arabia and Jordan, and it cannot advance far into the core Shia territory of Iraq. It can operate freely in Syria, in a war of attrition with the Iranian backed government army. The grim task of regional security policy is to channel the butchery into areas that do not threaten oil production or transport.

Ultimately, ISIS is a distraction. The problem is Iran. Without Iran, Hamas would have no capacity to strike Israel beyond a few dozen kilometers past the Gaza border. Iran now has GPS-guided missiles which are much harder to shoot down than ordinary ballistic missiles (an unguided missile has a trajectory that is easy to calculate after launch; guided missiles squirrel about seeking their targets). If Hamas acquires such rockets-and it will eventually if left to its own devices-Israel will have to strike further, harder and deeper to eliminate the threat. That confrontation will not come within a year, and possibly not within five years, but it looms over the present hostilities. The region’s security will hinge on the ultimate reckoning with Iran.

Spengler is channeled by David P Goldman. He is Senior Fellow at the London Center for Policy Research and the Was Family Fellow at the Middle East Forum. His book How Civilizations Die (and why Islam is Dying, Too) was published by Regnery Press in September 2011. A volume of his essays on culture, religion and economics, It’s Not the End of the World – It’s Just the End of You, also appeared that fall, from Van Praag Press.
Channel72
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by Channel72 »

Stas Bush wrote:
Channel72 wrote:The Dawa government could work, if we proactively push back ISIS advances and install someone who doesn't suck so much.
Well let's see the record: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria. None of them have a functional government now. None of them are stable. They are full of islamists, hardcore ones, and it is unlikely you can turn back the clock. Why? Because even Assad clan couldn't, and they were ready to slaughter islamists by the tens of thousands. You think you can stabilize these nations? Are you sure?
Naturally, I'm not sure because I'm not clairvoyant.

However, I believe there's reason to be optimistic in the case of the Iraqi government. For one thing, as I said, the Dawa party has strong support within Iraq*, whereas nobody really likes ISIS except the minority Sunni population in the Mosul area. Secondly, ISIS (and it's predecessor, Al Qaeda in Iraq) are not truly a nationalist Iraqi movement. Al Qaeda in Iraq was started, and motivated by, mostly foreign Sunni militants from Jordan and Syria (Zarqawi being the most notable one). While they've no doubt recruited many Sunny Iraqis to their cause, they are drastically out-numbered by Iraqis who support the Dawa party, not to mention Kurds who basically want ISIS eradicated. Not to mention that the current Iraqi government is supported by the Iranians. So, I don't see much of a future for ISIS.

That said, the fact that the Iraqi military just fled in the face of ISIS' blitzkrieg (which occurred before ISIS had access to sophisticated US weaponry) is very disturbing, and shows that the Iraqi leadership is very corrupt and the military is pretty weak. (Fucking stupid Paul Bremer still fucking everyone over to this day - Saddam's forces would have crushed ISIS in like 3 seconds...)

However, given the wide support for the Dawa party, I still think this government can work, given time. The biggest threat is the widespread Sunni Islamist movement (whether we call it al Tawhid wal Jihad, ISIS, Al Qaeda in Iraq, whatever), but I don't think they will be able to conquer the Shi'a majority, not with the Kurds, Iranians, and US against them. Basically, ISIS is pretty much fucked, despite their current success.

I predict they won't last past January or February. Feel free to mock me ruthlessly if I'm wrong.
* Although, honestly I'd prefer the Baathists because of their secularism - if only they didn't tend to be so fucking brutal like Hussein and Assad.
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cosmicalstorm
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Re: ISIS destroyed Jonah's tomb and other historical sites

Post by cosmicalstorm »

Sending all those TOW's to Syria seems to be a bad idea. At this stage I wonder if it would not be best for the US to immediately repair the diplomatic links with Assad in Damascus and rapidly arm them together with the Kurds, Turks be damned!

Washington Post:
President Obama is deepening U.S. engagement in Iraq under the shadow of Syria, where he resisted similar calls to intervene — inaction that analysts and even his former top diplomat say may have sown the seeds of the Iraqi conflict.

Although she backed off some Tuesday, former Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton became the latest to slam the White House’s handling of Iraq, Syria and the Islamic State group, which has captured key areas of Iraq and plunged the nation back into chaos.

PHOTOS: Obama's biggest White House 'fails'

Mrs. Clinton, Republicans, many foreign policy analysts and other critics say Mr. Obama failed to contain in Syria the Islamist groups that morphed into the Islamic State and inadvertently helped the militants co-opt the larger rebel movement against Syrian President Bashar Assad.

The organization gained strength, recruited members in Syria and started spreading its brand of violence and Islamic law into Iraq.

Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... z3AMgFB8lV
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

:shock:
Parents are throwing children off the top of mountain in #Iraq so as not to watch them die of thirst....OH MY GOD!!!
https://twitter.com/drscott_atlanta/sta ... 5654563840
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