Malaysia Airlines 777 Crash (Europe)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

That would help to explain a great deal- if your air defense doctrine consists of relying on spotters to detect a plane, then having the radar take a quick snap-shot at whatever the spotter identifies, it's going to be very easy to mis-identify the target. Especially if the ground spotters are poorly trained or if visibility is imperfect.

On the other hand, if you don't do that, your air defenses get bombed into oblivion because you lack the resources to field a comprehensive air defense network because you're a bunch of rebels trying to make a country from scratch, rather than an organized army that's had decades to procure great masses of equipment.

Assuming this more or less explains what happens (small crew of SAM operators firing a snap-shot at what a spotter had informed them was a military plane), then honestly, I think the single biggest bit of negligence here was the decision to route civilian aircraft over a war zone.

It would make sense since the rebels have never been known to have possessed an air search radar. Fire-control radars aren't used for air search normally.

[Purple]

On the other hand, if you don't do that, your air defenses get bombed into oblivion because you lack the resources to field a comprehensive air defense network because you're a bunch of rebels trying to make a country from scratch, rather than an organized army that's had decades to procure great masses of equipment.

Actually from what I gathered that's pretty much the doctrine for regular armies as well. There is a reason why these systems were built with the capability to work that way after all.

[Simon_Jester]

For a large national military, individual SAM launchers and batteries might be playing 'shoot and scoot,' but there is a fixed, more or less permanent air defense network responsible for identifying planes. The network has air-search radars that permanently keep an eye out and track planes throughout a large area. It has more access to information, through pre-established communication systems, and has plenty of trained operators who would know how to tell aircraft apart.

For a bunch of rebels who managed to successfully capture a few SAM launchers from the government, it's a different story. Their spotters and operators are likely not professionally trained because they have no resources or time to hold classes in such things. They may not even know how to challenge a suspicious aircraft and thus allow it to identify itself as a civilian airplane.

So it becomes almost predictable that they will try to shoot down planes that should not be attacked.

[Ziggy Stardust]

This video is graphic. If seeing corpses will disturb you, do not watch it.

Video footage of the crash scene

Residents in the area described bodies falling from the sky and landing in their own backyards. VICE News travels to the still-gruesome scene of the crash and speaks to residents who witnessed firsthand a tragedy that promises to dramatically alter the terms of the conflict.

[Broomstick]

Thanks for the warning on content. I did watch, but I appreciate a heads up on graphic photos so I can choose when I view them.

I think what struck me the most was that most of the people interviewed seemed ordinary civilians largely caught in the crossfire (who may or may not support a particular side) having a plane full of people rain down on them. The one lady said she at first thought the falling bodies were bombs and would explode... which I think really underlines what the atmosphere is like in that corner of the world. It's a horrible thing to think about - thinking that what's falling on your house is a bomb and you're about to die, then realizing no, it's a human being who only minutes ago was alive who was a victim of something horrible. On top of your house. And you don't know who that person is or what exactly happened to put them there.

For those who don't care to watch - for the most part the bodies did not appear burned. I'm assuming that's an indication that the airplane was literally blown apart or broke up rather than catching fire. A few witnesses mentioned that some of the bodies were naked, and airline cruising speeds can tear the clothes off a person. Others were very clearly still in their seats as they fell.

Reports of "body parts" probably come from people who were in the initial impact area of the missile, but an airplane is a big vehicle, clearly not everyone was ripped apart. I'm hoping that the initial impact produced a sufficient shock to render those passengers not instantly killed mercifully unconscious. I really hate to think of dozens of people falling 9,000 or 10,000 meters, still strapped to their seats, fully aware of what was happening.

I am also very, very happy that the bodies shown were either face down or had their faces blurred - one of those killed was attending university in Indiana and, of course, her picture has been all over the news here. I'd just as soon see the pictures of her alive and vibrant rather than smashed into someone's roof or garden patch. I'm also guessing that it's the locals who have been covering the bodies with sheets and tarps. Seriously, that's the most respectful thing that's happened to the victims so far, as the locals running the show and preventing investigators and other personnel from reaching the site sure don't seem to give a fuck about the fact these people are rotting in fields and gardens, or the local people who have to deal with the corpses on the roads on their properties. Yes, I know it's a war zone and that makes things difficult, it just adds to the tragedy.

[Broomstick]

The news media here are calling it a "crime scene" rather than "crash site" or "accident site", so some bias is showing I think. If the reports that the separatists are really keeping everyone out and refusing to allow recovery of anything, and/or rummaging through the personal belongings of victims, things could get even uglier than they are now.

Worst of all, the longer the pieces and bodies sit out in the field the more any evidence degrades. Sure, that's good for the guilty parties but not for anyone actually wanting to know what the hell really happened.

Some bodies have apparently been bagged and transported to a make-shift morgue, which is fine on one level but I doubt any sort of professional quality recording and record-keeping has been done on the remains, which doesn't help any investigation since how and where bodies (parts) land can also give information on the event.

[Thanas]

Confirmed that OSCE advisors were denied access to the site and prevented from identifying bodies:
Link

The Dutch foreign minister, Frans Timmermans, and a small team of monitors from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) were prevented from identifying and repatriating bodies on Saturday, having been allowed only limited access to the disaster site under the supervision of the armed separatists.

Following reports about attempts to use victims' credit cards, Dutch banks said that they were taking "preventive measures" and that any losses suffered by relatives of the dead would be paid back. The Telegraaf newspaper said: "The government must make clear to the world that we are beside ourselves with rage."

[...]

The situation there descended into chaos on Saturday as "experts" of unknown provenance moved bodies decomposing in the baking heat from fields to the roadside, and used bags to collect body parts. A spokesman for the OSCE, Michael Bociurkiw, said: "Some of the body bags are open and the damage to the corpses is very, very bad – it is very difficult to look at."

It also seems that Russia has put some pressure on the seperatists to stop this, but the efforts are fruitless so far.

German news media reports observers only had 3 hours of limited access. The black boxes have not been turned over to the investigating experts.

[Tribun]

It's pretty obvious they've destroyed all important evidence or brought it to Russia to be be destroyed. You don't do this unless you've got something to hide.

Good thing these jerks soon seem to be history. Luhansk is almost surrounded and their area of control is shrinking constantly. Compared to what they had, they lost 2/3 of their area, which is very telling. Donetzk is already half under siege and it's only a matter of time before the Ukrainian army can start starving out the city.

Of course before the complete collapse, every important "leader" will flee to Russia, where they'll be cared for, leaving their stupid grunts behind to carry the consequences. I find it kind of telling that east Ukraine will now have it much worse than before. I the eyes of the rest of the Ukraine they'll be for years seen as unreliable and untrustworthy. Guess they flushed their future down the toilet.

[Vympel]

It's pretty obvious they've destroyed all important evidence or brought it to Russia to be be destroyed. You don't do this unless you've got something to hide.

Good thing these jerks soon seem to be history. Luhansk is almost surrounded and their area of control is shrinking constantly. Compared to what they had, they lost 2/3 of their area, which is very telling. Donetzk is already half under siege and it's only a matter of time before the Ukrainian army can start starving out the city.

Of course before the complete collapse, every important "leader" will flee to Russia, where they'll be cared for, leaving their stupid grunts behind to carry the consequences. I find it kind of telling that east Ukraine will now have it much worse than before. I the eyes of the rest of the Ukraine they'll be for years seen as unreliable and untrustworthy. Guess they flushed their future down the toilet.

Its not obvious at all that they've done any such thing, and crash investigators are not so stupid that they can't tell that important evidence is missing from the crash site.

The reality is that you're expecting professional conduct from armed militants in a war zone, and there are several armed groups of varying levels of professionalism so the actions of one are not the actions of the other.

[Tribun]

Of course I fully expect that the tampering is discovered. Since as you said, most of these militia are not professionals.

That's the interesting thing, regardless what they do, it'll only hurt them.

[Vympel]

Of course I fully expect that the tampering is discovered. Since as you said, most of these militia are not professionals.

That's the interesting thing, regardless what they do, it'll only hurt them.

And their press operation is laughably bad. Some of the shit that comes out of there is youtube-commenter-level-propaganda.

[Broomstick]

Following reports about attempts to use victims' credit cards, Dutch banks said that they were taking "preventive measures" and that any losses suffered by relatives of the dead would be paid back. The Telegraaf newspaper said: "The government must make clear to the world that we are beside ourselves with rage."

Why am I shocked that someone has stolen from the dead? Seriously, why did I find that shocking? With the sort of chucklefucks that seem to be present on-site that would almost be a logical conclusion.

It's pretty obvious they've destroyed all important evidence or brought it to Russia to be be destroyed. You don't do this unless you've got something to hide.

While I understand why someone would have the suspicion the Russians were in on this, and a cover-up, given that the Russians are clearly involved in the East Ukraine conflict, I'd prefer there be a bit more evidence before we conclusively say the Russians are involved in destroying evidence. They might be, but it is also possible their puppets have cut their strings and are acting on their own in this matter. In which case the Russians are just as frustrated as anyone else since it is in Russia's interest to extract themselves from culpability. Handing over the black boxes and being able to hang this all on some rogue separatists would be a nice outcome from the Kremlin's viewpoint.

[cosmicalstorm]

What happens when the dialogue police meets an armed force - Here in Sweden there is a call to dismantle the military and replace it with diplomatic policemen

[Darth Holbytlan]

Interesting tidbit supporting the authenticity of those recordings where separatists discussing shooting down MH17: CBS News' Clarissa Ward claimed to recognize one of the voices on those recordings as belonging to a pro-Russian separatist who detained her and her crew and beat a cameraman a few months ago:

[slebetman]

Apparently the recording has been authenticated by voice analysis: http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2 ... e-genuine/

"Audio data provided to the press by the Ukrainian security service was evaluated by Intelligence Community analysts who confirmed these were authentic conversations between known separatist leaders," the US embassy in Ukraine said in a statement.

[Tribun]

It seems with each day the pit this scum is in gets deeper.

[slebetman]

Yeah, this is the one that pisses me off the most: Igor Gorkin trying to start a conspiracy theory by saying that the passengers were probably already dead on take-off -- http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2 ... er-claims/

A top pro-Russia separatist leader has claimed that the victims of Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH17 may have already been dead before the plane took off from Amsterdam on Thursday.

Rebel leader Igor Girkin is reported as having said that he was told by people at the crash site that “a significant number of the bodies weren’t fresh”.

The response from the Malaysian blogosphere was predictable (made me proud actually) : newspaper headline simply said: Igor Girkin, you're a "moron, murderous idiot" -- http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2 ... alaysians/

Choice quote:

"Of course, they died mid-air because you shot them with a freakin missile, you moron!"

Keep digging assholes..

[slebetman]

You know, this is not the first time a commercial airliner has been shot accidentally. But with previous events there's almost always been some sort of "sorry, it was an accident" or "we thought it was enemy aircraft" statement by the side who did it. This time around it's denial and cover-ups. I guess it's the cover-up (or apparent cover-up) aspect that pisses off people the most.

[noncredible]

Has Ukraine taken steps to secure the scene? The articles seem to mention that OSCE personnel are not being allowed to access the full scene by separatist militants. Are the Ukrainian armed forces not in a position to do anything?

[AniThyng]

Yeah, this is the one that pisses me off the most: Igor Gorkin trying to start a conspiracy theory by saying that the passengers were probably already dead on take-off -- http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2 ... er-claims/

A top pro-Russia separatist leader has claimed that the victims of Malaysia Airlines (MAS) flight MH17 may have already been dead before the plane took off from Amsterdam on Thursday.

Rebel leader Igor Girkin is reported as having said that he was told by people at the crash site that “a significant number of the bodies weren’t fresh”.

The response from the Malaysian blogosphere was predictable (made me proud actually) : newspaper headline simply said: Igor Girkin, you're a "moron, murderous idiot" -- http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2 ... alaysians/

Choice quote:

"Of course, they died mid-air because you shot them with a freakin missile, you moron!"

Keep digging assholes..

Someone has watched too much Sherlock. Seriously that was an actual plot point... ,

[Tribun]

Has Ukraine taken steps to secure the scene? The articles seem to mention that OSCE personnel are not being allowed to access the full scene by separatist militants. Are the Ukrainian armed forces not in a position to do anything?

They can't. It's in the middle of the seperatist-controlled area, close to the Russian border. It's an area the army still have to reclaim, thus why these armed hobos were able to pull this shit off.

[noncredible]

Has Ukraine taken steps to secure the scene? The articles seem to mention that OSCE personnel are not being allowed to access the full scene by separatist militants. Are the Ukrainian armed forces not in a position to do anything?

They can't. It's in the middle of the seperatist-controlled area, close to the Russian border. It's an area the army still have to reclaim, thus why these armed hobos were able to pull this shit off.

This article by the Guardian says that UNSC is circulating a resolution.

The UN security council is considering a draft resolution to condemn the "shooting down" of a Malaysian passenger plane in Ukraine, demand armed groups allow access to the crash site and call on states in the region to co-operate with an international investigation.

Australia – which lost 36 citizens and residents – circulated a draft text, seen by Reuters, to the 15-member security council late on Saturday and diplomats, speaking on condition of anonymity, said it could be put to a vote as early as Monday.

Assuming it passes, would the bold part essentially just be a stern warning towards the separatists, as there aren't any Ukrainian forces in a position to do anything?

[Tribun]

Exactly, right now there aren't any Ukrainian armed forces in the area. The resolution won't pass anyway, the Russians won't care they look like douchebags and simply veto it.

[Borgholio]

Exactly, right now there aren't any Ukrainian armed forces in the area. The resolution won't pass anyway, the Russians won't care they look like douchebags and simply veto it.

This I'm not so sure about. The Russians will want to distance themselves from this PR nightmare. I doubt they'd have a problem going along with a condemnation of people who are basically an embarrassment to them now.

[slebetman]

I doubt they'd have a problem going along with a condemnation of people who are basically an embarrassment to them now.

They still have a problem with it. They've insisted that the UN resolution change the phrase "shooting down" to "downing" to admit a possibility of ambiguity. But they're probably going to allow a something to be passed without veto as long as everyone uses appropriate language to describe it.