"Anti-Homeless Studs" in a London Doorway

[General Zod]

I have to say that something I find more disturbing than people automatically assuming homeless people are possibly dangerous is what some in this thread have said, that they just fade int the background and you stop noticing them. That really isn't a good sign I think, that you stop noticing a problem and just mentally gloss over it.

You start seeing things in a different light and learn to be more cautious after getting robbed blind.

[Broomstick]

If people do not want to use them that by definition makes them sketchy in my book. As for can't, could you elaborate a bit on that?

Don't know about Europe, but here it is quite common for shelters to be either men only or women only. Women often don't want to go to shelters that aren't women-only due to fears of rape. Men sometimes fear going to shelters for fear of robbery. Seems to me avoiding being a crime victim is a valid reason to NOT use a designated shelter. Shelters also sometimes have rules that can be onerous, like having to be there at a certain time which may interfere with work, if said person has a job.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I have to say that something I find more disturbing than people automatically assuming homeless people are possibly dangerous is what some in this thread have said, that they just fade int the background and you stop noticing them. That really isn't a good sign I think, that you stop noticing a problem and just mentally gloss over it.

You start seeing things in a different light and learn to be more cautious after getting robbed blind.

I'm sure you do, I just find it worrying that so many people just don't notice the problem.

[General Zod]

I have to say that something I find more disturbing than people automatically assuming homeless people are possibly dangerous is what some in this thread have said, that they just fade int the background and you stop noticing them. That really isn't a good sign I think, that you stop noticing a problem and just mentally gloss over it.

You start seeing things in a different light and learn to be more cautious after getting robbed blind.

I'm sure you do, I just find it worrying that so many people just don't notice the problem.

After being accosted for change at least 10 times a week for months you start growing numb to the problem.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh I understand that, it's the fact that we do become numb to it that is uncomfortable.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ziggy, it's not unusual for homeless people to have a shopping trolley's worth of stuff.

So? Yes, some homeless people fill shopping trolleys or old suitcases or whatever so they can transport more stuff. That doesn't change my basic point, which is that there is no reason for a homeless person to unnecessarily burden themselves with bulky objects that attract negative attention (they are disproportionately more likely to be targeted by police or criminals for unwanted attention) only for the benefit of being able to sleep in some specific areas. Even with shopping carts, there is a limit to the number and size of objects you can transport, and there are diminishing marginal returns associated with every item you carry. (Remember that my post was referring specifically to somebody talking about plywood planks, not something easily compressible or light like cardboard...)

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

A lot of homeless people carry/set up signs, a piece of plywood could easily pull double duty for that.

[salm]

If people do not want to use them that by definition makes them sketchy in my book. As for can't, could you elaborate a bit on that?

Why does not wanting to use them make them sketchy by definition?

Some can´t in the sense that they have a sufficient amount of psychological problems. Some just have mental problems, some have alcohol or drug related problems. These problems in some cases can lead to people not being able to either file the paperwork necessary for permanent housing or not being able to be in places like homeless shelters (fears, phobias).
Homeless shelters are not a pleasant place to be. Sure, they provide some kind of protection against weather and other things but they´re sufficiently uncomfortable and unpleasant to keep some people away. Also there might be a bunch of unpleasant other people. Would you like to sleep in a room together with a whole lot of alcoholics and junkies? Maybe a park bench isn´t that bad of an option compared to some shelters.

On the other hand not all homeless people are affected by mental problems of course. Also I´m sure that there are plenty of sketchy people on the streets. I just wouldn´t cover all of them a blanket statement.

I have to say that something I find more disturbing than people automatically assuming homeless people are possibly dangerous is what some in this thread have said, that they just fade int the background and you stop noticing them. That really isn't a good sign I think, that you stop noticing a problem and just mentally gloss over it.

Oh, I agree, there´s a problem and it´s supposed to be more present. It´s really difficult to keep something present, though, if it´s as common as that.
On the other hand I still don´t think it´s healthy do be afraid. It´s disrespectful towards other people to asume that they want you harm for nothing else than being poor and being scared is also bad for yourself. I´d rather not be scared than be scared so I´m glad that I´m not scared and I´m glad that my girlfriend isn´t scared either. It would be kind of nightmarish to live here if either one of us was scared of bums.

[Purple]

[Why does not wanting to use them make them sketchy by definition?

And it's time to dissect.

Some can´t in the sense that they have a sufficient amount of psychological problems.

Lack of such a sense can indicate deeper problems which can indicate them being dangerous.

Some just have mental problems, some have alcohol or drug related problems.

And people with such problems are NOT sketchy according to you? I sure would not feel comfortable around someone who has a drug problem regardless of if he is homeless or not.

These problems in some cases can lead to people not being able to either file the paperwork necessary for permanent housing

If he can not fill out basic paperwork how can I trust him to be able to not take something mundane as a threat and jump at me? Or hell, how do I trust him to be smart enough not to urinate on the sidewalk which is just as bad?

or not being able to be in places like homeless shelters (fears, phobias).

Random phobias related to being around other people tend to make a person sketchy when it comes to dealing with those other people. And I am one of the other people.

Homeless shelters are not a pleasant place to be. Sure, they provide some kind of protection against weather and other things but they´re sufficiently uncomfortable and unpleasant to keep some people away. Also there might be a bunch of unpleasant other people. Would you like to sleep in a room together with a whole lot of alcoholics and junkies? Maybe a park bench isn´t that bad of an option compared to some shelters.

I'd rather sleep in a room with them than in a park full of them. At least in the room I can be warm whilst they shank me.

On the other hand not all homeless people are affected by mental problems of course. Also I´m sure that there are plenty of sketchy people on the streets. I just wouldn´t cover all of them a blanket statement.

Rule of thumb is that when you have a chance to take you don't take it.

On the other hand I still don´t think it´s healthy do be afraid. It´s disrespectful towards other people to asume that they want you harm for nothing else than being poor and being scared is also bad for yourself. I´d rather not be scared than be scared so I´m glad that I´m not scared and I´m glad that my girlfriend isn´t scared either. It would be kind of nightmarish to live here if either one of us was scared of bums.

Fear is good. Fear keeps you sharp and lets you avoid the bad ones when they do strike. And if that means you have to hurt someones feelings if they happen to be able to read your mind. Too bad for them.

Don't know about Europe, but here it is quite common for shelters to be either men only or women only. Women often don't want to go to shelters that aren't women-only due to fears of rape. Men sometimes fear going to shelters for fear of robbery. Seems to me avoiding being a crime victim is a valid reason to NOT use a designated shelter. Shelters also sometimes have rules that can be onerous, like having to be there at a certain time which may interfere with work, if said person has a job.

Most of those things I can not comment on as I have newer visited a shelter. But I can tell you this much. If the homeless are dangerous enough that other homeless, as in people who know the community fear them I should too.


This said, I do not actually fear the homeless at all. But that is exclusively because where I am from there aren't many. This is not to say that I live in some sort of paradise. There are plenty of homeless people here. I just don't hang out in the parts of town they do or something so I don't see them. But I sure as hell know I would not feel comfortable living surrounded by bunch of poor, desperate people who have no job, no home and nothing to lose. Not in a small part because I know what I'd do if I were placed in such a situation. So yeah.

[Broomstick]

Some can´t in the sense that they have a sufficient amount of psychological problems.

Lack of such a sense can indicate deeper problems which can indicate them being dangerous.

Most people with psychological problems are far more likely to be victims of crime rather than perpetrators of it.

Some just have mental problems, some have alcohol or drug related problems.

And people with such problems are NOT sketchy according to you? I sure would not feel comfortable around someone who has a drug problem regardless of if he is homeless or not.

So how do you manage to function in society? There are millions of people with drug or alcohol problems and most of them are NOT homeless, indeed, most hold down jobs for years while struggling with addictions and look just like ordinary people.

Homeless shelters are not a pleasant place to be. Sure, they provide some kind of protection against weather and other things but they´re sufficiently uncomfortable and unpleasant to keep some people away. Also there might be a bunch of unpleasant other people. Would you like to sleep in a room together with a whole lot of alcoholics and junkies? Maybe a park bench isn´t that bad of an option compared to some shelters.

I'd rather sleep in a room with them than in a park full of them. At least in the room I can be warm whilst they shank me.

That is certainly your choice, however, I fail to see where someone should be condemned for making a different choice.

Don't know about Europe, but here it is quite common for shelters to be either men only or women only. Women often don't want to go to shelters that aren't women-only due to fears of rape. Men sometimes fear going to shelters for fear of robbery. Seems to me avoiding being a crime victim is a valid reason to NOT use a designated shelter. Shelters also sometimes have rules that can be onerous, like having to be there at a certain time which may interfere with work, if said person has a job.

Most of those things I can not comment on as I have newer visited a shelter. But I can tell you this much. If the homeless are dangerous enough that other homeless, as in people who know the community fear them I should too.

In a shelter of 200 people it only takes one to commit rape or robbery. Because the homeless do not have secure housing they are far more likely to be a victim of crime than you are.

Basically, what you're saying is that if someone already down on their luck and in bad circumstances doesn't accept whatever you dole out as a solution, regardless of the risk to that person, you heap scorn upon them and condemn them as dangerous when really all they're trying to do is protect themselves from harm.

This said, I do not actually fear the homeless at all. But that is exclusively because where I am from there aren't many. This is not to say that I live in some sort of paradise. There are plenty of homeless people here. I just don't hang out in the parts of town they do or something so I don't see them.

How do you know you aren't surrounded by homeless? Those that don't suffer from severe addiction or psych problems often look just like everybody else and might even hold down a job. It's not like they're branded on the forehead.

But I sure as hell know I would not feel comfortable living surrounded by bunch of poor, desperate people who have no job, no home and nothing to lose. Not in a small part because I know what I'd do if I were placed in such a situation. So yeah.

So you'd be one of the bad guys? Therefore everyone else must be as morally questionable as yourself?

[Purple]

Most people with psychological problems are far more likely to be victims of crime rather than perpetrators of it.

Well you've got me there. I guess it's just kind of more likely that someone who has no income, home or anything else to lose and for whom prison means a hot meal and a bed to sleep in is going to be the kind of crazy person that does perpetrate crime.

So how do you manage to function in society? There are millions of people with drug or alcohol problems and most of them are NOT homeless, indeed, most hold down jobs for years while struggling with addictions and look just like ordinary people.

They look like ordinary people so I don't notice them. And if some of them do show overt signs (like throwing up on the street) or admit their problems to me I tend to put my guard up.

That is certainly your choice, however, I fail to see where someone should be condemned for making a different choice.

It's not like I would be condemning anyone by putting my self on guard.

In a shelter of 200 people it only takes one to commit rape or robbery. Because the homeless do not have secure housing they are far more likely to be a victim of crime than you are.

Sure, but how unsafe someone else is does not really factor into my concerns for my own safety. Just like how hungry someone else is does not factor into my hunger or lack there off.

Basically, what you're saying is that if someone already down on their luck and in bad circumstances doesn't accept whatever you dole out as a solution, regardless of the risk to that person, you heap scorn upon them and condemn them as dangerous when really all they're trying to do is protect themselves from harm.

No, I am saying that you do not know someone personally you should automatically put you on guard when dealing with them.
When that someone you don't know is down on their luck doubly so.
And finally if someone refuses or can't access the little bit that society does chose to throw their way that only makes them more desperate and thus dangerous.

Now sure, 99% of them will be good honest people. But so will 99% of humanity. At least on the surface. Why take that 1% chance?

How do you know you aren't surrounded by homeless? Those that don't suffer from severe addiction or psych problems often look just like everybody else and might even hold down a job. It's not like they're branded on the forehead.

Well you've got me there. But as I said before, what I don't notice does not effect me. Well not until it's too late and I have a knife up my spine and someones hands in my wallet. But that's how life goes.

So you'd be one of the bad guys? Therefore everyone else must be as morally questionable as yourself?

Everyone is a bad guy. As far as I am concerned humans are by nature evil. And it is only the conventions of society and upbringing that stops us from charging into someone elses cave club swinging and stealing their fire. Upbringing is just a fancy word for the process of drilling the evil out of you. That is why for example cruel children can grow up into responsible adults.

[salm]

Broomstick answered that pretty much the way I would have.

I´ll just add something else:

Lack of such a sense can indicate deeper problems which can indicate them being dangerous.

The keywords being "can" and "indicate".
Really, all kinds of things "can" "indicate" all kinds of other things. There´s no reason to be scared of them though.

If he can not fill out basic paperwork how can I trust him to be able to not take something mundane as a threat and jump at me? Or hell, how do I trust him to be smart enough not to urinate on the sidewalk which is just as bad?

What does on thing have to do with the other?
As for uriniating on the sidewalk, well, there are plenty of worse things than that and as far as I can tell the main source of piss on side walks is from drunk tourists and generic party goers. Are you afraid of drunk tourists?

Rule of thumb is that when you have a chance to take you don't take it.


Fear is good. Fear keeps you sharp and lets you avoid the bad ones when they do strike. And if that means you have to hurt someones feelings if they happen to be able to read your mind. Too bad for them.

You take chances everytime you get into a car. If the chances of a bad outcome are low enough you risk it because everything else condemns you to a miserable life of fear.
Too much fear doesn´t keep you sharp. It dulls you down into misrable, non functioning person.

[Purple]

The keywords being "can" and "indicate".
Really, all kinds of things "can" "indicate" all kinds of other things. There´s no reason to be scared of them though.

Scared no, but reasonably cautious. Than again you should be reasonably cautious all the time with anyone so I guess that point goes to you.

What does on thing have to do with the other?
As for uriniating on the sidewalk, well, there are plenty of worse things than that and as far as I can tell the main source of piss on side walks is from drunk tourists and generic party goers. Are you afraid of drunk tourists?

Yes, I dislike and stay away from drunk tourists as they are troublemakers and dangerous idiots.

You take chances everytime you get into a car. If the chances of a bad outcome are low enough you risk it because everything else condemns you to a miserable life of fear.

There is a difference between getting into a car and standing alone in the middle of the night with a shady person porched on your door step eying you strangely.

Too much fear doesn´t keep you sharp. It dulls you down into misrable, non functioning person.

I think you have a massively exaggerated view of what I am describing. That might by my fault as I might have expressed my self improperly. But I can not be sure.

[salm]

Do you think that the homeless are sketchy/dangerous/whatever enough to warrant ways to keep them away like seen in the opening post?

[Purple]

Do you think that the homeless are sketchy/dangerous/whatever enough to warrant ways to keep them away like seen in the opening post?

No. However I do think they are sketchy/dangerous/whatever enough to warrant a sufficient degree of caution to use some measure. And that once you cross that point it is relatively easy to understand how a more ruthless person might think such measures are warranted.

As in, not "I get why he did it" but more "I get where he was coming from".

[Korto]

Do you think that the homeless are sketchy/dangerous/whatever enough to warrant ways to keep them away like seen in the opening post?

You know, to be fair, even without Purple's slightly paranoid posts, something like this could well be warranted.
1) Firstly, many people (a majority probably women) could quite reasonably feel nervous, even scared, to have some complete stranger right there when it's late at night and they're all alone. Particularly when he looks rough, he may be drunk, and acting unruly.
People with a job, wife, kids, and sober, can cause trouble when someone smaller than them is all alone. Someone with little to lose, resenting the society that abandoned him, no hope for the future, and feeling that everyone despises him, cannot be expected to act better.

2) If someone was attacked, the owner of the flats could quite probably be sued. A "Reasonable Person" would have been able to foresee trouble, and could have taken steps to prevent it, etc.
The spikes are unkind in their blatant message. I would think a couple of large potplants (the big, heavy bastards) would do the job just as well, be more subtle, and even improve the look of the place. Of course, they'll cost more to look after.

Everyone is a bad guy. As far as I am concerned humans are by nature evil. And it is only the conventions of society and upbringing that stops us from charging into someone elses cave club swinging and stealing their fire.

Seriously? And where do you think society came from?

[Purple]

Seriously? And where do you think society came from?

When a group of people comes together and they all have sticks the individual tends to fall in line and hypocritically act nice when people are looking lest he be beaten and thrown out to the cave bears.

[Korto]

And what's your explanation for charitable giving? Why do people admire people who work to help others? Are we all just pretending? Why do children, too young to care what others think of them, react with compassion to others in pain?

[Gandalf]

And what's your explanation for charitable giving? Why do people admire people who work to help others? Are we all just pretending? Why do children, too young to care what others think of them, react with compassion to others in pain?

I don't think there really is one. It's just Purple playing hardcore internet tough guy... again.

[salm]

Does anybody have any proof that British homeless people are significantly more likely to be criminal than people who have a home?
I mean violent crime, not bullshit like illegal panhandling.

[Haminal10]

As a homeowner whose house is adjacent to a public park, the issue of homeless people is near and dear to me. Unfortunately, my option of the homeless and my tolerance for them sleeping in the park has steadily eroded, due in large part to the actions of homeless individuals.

I live in Baltimore City, and the park is fairly small. There is a small wading pool that is filled during the summer months, a nice jungle gym, and a covered pavilion. One morning about 5-6 years ago I noticed that there was a homeless man sleeping in the pavilion. He was packing up his blankets and preparing to head out for the day, so I didn't really mind his presence. He was back the next night, and continued to sleep in the pavilion for the next few weeks.

Once morning, the single homeless person was now two homeless people. A few days later there were three. I still didn't mind too much that they were sleeping there, but became concerned when I saw that they were no longer leaving the park during the day. The word must have gotten out about the nice place to sleep, because the number of homeless people sleeping in the park and remaining there during the day continued to increase. They also began constructing shelters out of cardboard, tents, and old mattresses. The amount of trash that was accumulating in the park was significant, with a large portion consisting of empty beer and liquor bottles. These bottles would get broken, which is a problem for a park that a good number of children play in everyday. Some of the homeless people were no longer "keeping to themselves"; they would shout at the families that where using the park, and there was one very nice individuals who would should obscenities at anyone who was nearby.

It was at this point that I began working to remove the homeless from the park. The park has prominent signs which state that the park closes at dusk, which means that the people sleeping there were trespassing. I contacted the mayor's office and my councilman, and informed them of the large number of homeless individuals using the park for shelter, and a number of them appeared to be in their teens. The responses that I received back from the city was that the city's homeless services division had been notified, and was dispatched to help these people out. The cardboard, shelters, and mattresses were removed. I would call the police non-emergency number every single day after dark to get the homeless moved into a shelter (especially as it was the middle of the winter, and temperatures get very low at night). I actually caught one homeless man taking a shit in broad daylight right next to the kid's playground (that warranted a 911 call).

After a few months of this, the homeless people stopped coming to the park. Park of me feels bad to have helped kick them out, but mostly I am just angry at how those homeless people treated the space that they were living in. What had been a nice little city park was turned into a garbage-filled dump, with broken glass scattered everywhere, and loud obnoxious people screaming at all hours of the day. I never would have considered using anything as extreme as the spikes in the article, but I can definitely understand the desire to prevent the homeless from staying on/near ones property.