Utah judge strikes down gay marriage Ban

[Atlan]

It seems like Utah is almost in a panic as if it has been invaded by hordes of Mongols or something

Mongol hordes would generally be politically to the left of many of the protestors.

[Kitsune]

It seems like Utah is almost in a panic as if it has been invaded by hordes of Mongols or something

Mongol hordes would generally be politically to the left of many of the protestors.

Still I have visions of rainbow dressed Mongol hordes

BTW: Merry Christmas

[Atlan]

It seems like Utah is almost in a panic as if it has been invaded by hordes of Mongols or something

Mongol hordes would generally be politically to the left of many of the protestors.

Still I have visions of rainbow dressed Mongol hordes

That would be a fabulous sight

BTW: Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas to you too. Hope you have fun.

[bilateralrope]

It looks like the 10th Circuit Court denied them a stay as well. They could appeal it to the Supremes I guess but they probably won't have much luck with convincing Sotomayor.

Can they appeal the denial of a stay to the Supreme Court ?

Or do they have to wait for the 10 Circuit to be finished with it before they can appeal anything up to the Supreme Court ?

[Pelranius]

It looks like the 10th Circuit Court denied them a stay as well. They could appeal it to the Supremes I guess but they probably won't have much luck with convincing Sotomayor.

Can they appeal the denial of a stay to the Supreme Court ?

Or do they have to wait for the 10 Circuit to be finished with it before they can appeal anything up to the Supreme Court ?

I believe that they have to wait for the 10th Circuit to be finished, at least in most cases.

[Napoleon the Clown]

$2 million+ to fight this ruling.

Short version, the state is expecting to pay in the neighborhood of $2 million to hire the best and brightest minds they can to give us the next Loving vs Virginia. So much for fiscal responsibility, right? And then there's however much the LDS church will try donating, secretly or otherwise.

[Kitsune]

Proves that they are not interested in actually saving money

[Maraxus]

$2 million+ to fight this ruling.

Short version, the state is expecting to pay in the neighborhood of $2 million to hire the best and brightest minds they can to give us the next Loving vs Virginia. So much for fiscal responsibility, right? And then there's however much the LDS church will try donating, secretly or otherwise.

It'd be kind of weird if they didn't do something like this. This isn't California or New York, where spending that kind of money is kind of politically counter-productive. Polling indicates that around 65%-70% of Utahans oppose same-sex marriage in concept, even if a majority of them are in favor of some kind of legal recognition/legitimacy. It's not something that will kill Gary Herbert's political career going forward. Even if he loses, he can still say he fought the good fight. Loving didn't exactly hurt anyone's political career in Virginia, and white Virginians in the 1960's were waaaaaaay more violently opposed to interracial marriage than Mormon Utahans are about marriage equality.

Fun fact: Salt Lake City has one of the more thriving LGBT communities in the mountain states. The city has way more non-Mormons than the rest of the state and is pretty ethnically diverse too. A lot of the more Mormon-y Mormons don't care for it because it's full of Gentiles. So thank SLC for dragging Utah kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

[Pelranius]

$2 million+ to fight this ruling.

Short version, the state is expecting to pay in the neighborhood of $2 million to hire the best and brightest minds they can to give us the next Loving vs Virginia. So much for fiscal responsibility, right? And then there's however much the LDS church will try donating, secretly or otherwise.

Well donating money usually doesn't influence cases in federal courts.

[Napoleon the Clown]

It can help hire better lawyers, theoretically.


Or bribe judges, but they'd never do that.

[Knife]

$2 million+ to fight this ruling.

Short version, the state is expecting to pay in the neighborhood of $2 million to hire the best and brightest minds they can to give us the next Loving vs Virginia. So much for fiscal responsibility, right? And then there's however much the LDS church will try donating, secretly or otherwise.

It'd be kind of weird if they didn't do something like this. This isn't California or New York, where spending that kind of money is kind of politically counter-productive. Polling indicates that around 65%-70% of Utahans oppose same-sex marriage in concept, even if a majority of them are in favor of some kind of legal recognition/legitimacy. It's not something that will kill Gary Herbert's political career going forward. Even if he loses, he can still say he fought the good fight. Loving didn't exactly hurt anyone's political career in Virginia, and white Virginians in the 1960's were waaaaaaay more violently opposed to interracial marriage than Mormon Utahans are about marriage equality.

Fun fact: Salt Lake City has one of the more thriving LGBT communities in the mountain states. The city has way more non-Mormons than the rest of the state and is pretty ethnically diverse too. A lot of the more Mormon-y Mormons don't care for it because it's full of Gentiles. So thank SLC for dragging Utah kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

SLC is very diverse and very blue politically. That's why it got chopped up and gerry mandered into all the other districts. Granted, Mathewson is hardly liberal, but more so than the other 3 here.

[Pelranius]

It can help hire better lawyers, theoretically.


Or bribe judges, but they'd never do that.

Yes, though I imagine that the $2 million ponied up by the great state of Utah would get them the best available lawyers already.

[Kitsune]

Maybe they should consider that a dream team will still have to use teh same arguments that have failed in multiple courts over multiple years. Have there been any recent US court cases where they found against Gay Marriage in the United States? Are there really any arguments that will really hold up in court?

[Maraxus]

SLC is very diverse and very blue politically. That's why it got chopped up and gerry mandered into all the other districts. Granted, Mathewson is hardly liberal, but more so than the other 3 here.

That's about what I understand. It's too bad, really. I like Matheson more than I like most conservaDems, but now that he's retiring the Utah Dems have nobody to replace him. Can't say I'm happy that Mia Love's going to replace Matheson, even if she really shouldn't have lost in 2012 and Matheson's type of Dems are going to be a leg-iron on the caucus going forward.

Really just makes me sad that California doesn't have partisan redistricting. It'd make it easier to blast Darrel Issa and his ilk into oblivion like the Utah GOP is doing to Matheson.

[Borgholio]

Endgame.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... e/4267207/

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Utah took its fight against gay marriage to the U.S. Supreme Court on Tuesday, asking the high court to suspend same-sex unions that became legal when a judge struck down the state's voter-approved ban.

The heavily Mormon state wants the marriages to stop while it appeals a judge's decision, which said banning gay couples from marrying violates their right to equal treatment under the law.

In papers filed Tuesday with Justice Sonia Sotomayor, the state asked her to overturn court decisions to let the marriages go forward. Sotomayor handles emergency requests from Utah and other Rocky Mountain states. She can act by herself or get the rest of the court involved.

Nearly two-thirds of Utah's 2.8 million residents are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and Mormons dominate the state's legal and political circles. U.S. District Judge Robert Shelby's decision on Dec. 20 came as a shock to many in the state, which approved the ban on same-sex marriage in 2004.

Since the judge's decision, more than 900 gay couples in Utah have gotten marriage licenses. Shelby and the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals have already refused to halt weddings while the state appeals.

Peggy Tomsic, the lawyer for the same-sex couples who brought the case, calls gay marriage the civil rights movement of this generation.

Shelby's decision came late on a Friday afternoon and sent people rushing to a county clerk's office in Salt Lake City — about 3 miles from the headquarters of the Mormon church — for marriage licenses. The following Monday, 353 more gay and lesbian couples grabbed a license, some camping out overnight to get in line early the next morning.

After the 10th Circuit Court refused to halt the ruling, the few county clerks who had refused to issue licenses changed course. Officials say things have slowed down after a run on marriage licenses that started hours after Shelby's decision.

Since then, Gov. Gary Herbert has directed state agencies to comply with Shelby's order, meaning gay couples are eligible for food stamps and welfare, among other benefits. The state Tax Commission said it was looking at changing tax returns to allow same-sex couples to file jointly, although it didn't immediately give assurances that will happen.

"Until the final word has been spoken by this Court or the Supreme Court on the constitutionality of Utah's marriage laws, Utah should not be required to enforce Judge Shelby's view of a new and fundamentally different definition of marriage," the state said in motion papers already filed at the appeals court.

The Mormon church was one of the leading forces behind California's short-lived ban on same-sex marriage, Proposition 8.

The church says it stands by its support for "traditional marriage" and hopes a higher court validates its belief that marriage is between a man and woman.

[Simon_Jester]

...Wait, how does Utah justify saying they don't have to comply with a Utah Supreme Court decision until the federal Supreme Court has ruled on the matter?

[Borgholio]

I don't think they can, unless a stay was issued on the matter pending appeal...right?

[bilateralrope]

...Wait, how does Utah justify saying they don't have to comply with a Utah Supreme Court decision until the federal Supreme Court has ruled on the matter?

Probably an argument saying the harm of granting the marriage licenses now, only to have them revoked if the ruling is reversed is significantly worse than not granting them at all until the courts are finished with the case. Courts issue stays pending appeals for arguments like that regularly.

I can't decide if I think a stay would be a good idea or not.

[Kitsune]

Not granting a stay is arguing "Your chances are minimal of overturning the lower court"

[Simon_Jester]

I would think that this attempt at appeal is kind of a gamble, because it boils down to "the state prerogative to define who it issues a marriage license to trumps the Fourteenth Amendment." They're basically hoping that the Supreme Court will decide that the equal protection clause doesn't apply to gays, and I have a hard time believing that would happen.

[Borgholio]

If the supreme court rules in favor of gay marriage, that will act as a major precedent that can be used in all the other states that haven't gone gay yet. It's probably the worst thing that could happen to the anti-gay crowd.

[bilateralrope]

I would think that this attempt at appeal is kind of a gamble, because it boils down to "the state prerogative to define who it issues a marriage license to trumps the Fourteenth Amendment." They're basically hoping that the Supreme Court will decide that the equal protection clause doesn't apply to gays, and I have a hard time believing that would happen.

It's a very poor gamble. Win and all they get is that it's legal to ban gay marriage if there is a voter approved ban. Lose in the supreme court and I don't see any way for any state to prevent gay marriages.

Though it's only a poor gamble if they care about the other states. If they don't, and only care about what happens in Utah, then risking it makes a lot more sense because they have nothing to lose except cash.

[Borgholio]

The Supreme Court has blocked any further Gay Marriages until the 10th Circuit makes their ruling.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... e/4338799/

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court has put same-sex marriages on hold in the state of Utah, at least while a federal appeals court more fully considers the issue.

The court issued a brief order Monday blocking any new same-sex unions in the western state.

The order follows an emergency appeal by the state following the Dec. 20 ruling by U.S. District Judge Robert Shelby that the state's ban on same-sex marriage violates gay and lesbian couples' constitutional rights.

More than 900 gay and lesbian couples have married since then.

The high court order will remain in effect until the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals decides whether to uphold Shelby's ruling.

Well...I can't say I'm pleased, but they're not saying it's ok to ban gays from marrying, they're just saying that they should put a hold on it until the appeal goes through. I guess...that's not too unreasonable.

[Simon_Jester]

So, what's the prognosis?

Six months ago the Supreme Court shot down the Defense of Marriage Act on grounds that it unjustly singles out gay couples and penalizes them. Utah is very much opening themselves to the possibility that a similar ruling on this question will sink all the state gay marriage laws now on the books.

On the other hand, Utah might win its appeal, on the grounds that the state does get to decide who it does and does not issue marriage licenses to. Although the Loving v. Virginia precedent makes that pretty unlikely in my opinion. What would be the consequences if Utah won?

[Borgholio]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the 10th circuit rules in favor of Utah, can't the proponents take it back to the Supreme Court for an actual ruling? Right now they just said "Hold off on the weddings until the appeal is heard."