amigocabal reposts stupid crap from conservative blog

[Instant Sunrise]

Hey amigocabal thanks for posting this bigoted diatribe. Because I already don't feel like I'm taking my life into my hands every time I have to use the restroom.

This bigoted "bathroom panic" horseshit has no bearing on reality, except to contribute towards the fact that 1 in 12 of us will be murdered for our gender identity. (1 in 8 for trans women of color by the way).

Watch this and realize that THIS is the whirlwind you reap when you push a blatant lie like the idea that we are somehow "predatory" by just trying to use the restroom in peace. THIS is what your fearmongering leads to. Watch it you son of a bitch.

[Serafina]

It wouldn't matter whether 100% or 0% of fathers with teenage daughters are bigots.
Civil rights are not to be determined by public votes.
Nor are peoples identities up to public opinion.


Also, there is a inherent difference between providing access to the disabled, and creating seperate facilities for transgendered people.
The first PROVIDES access, the second REMOVES access.
A person in a wheelchair is enabled to integrate into society due to ramps and elevators and such.
A transgendered person is restricted from integrating into society due to segregated facilities.

Now obviously, if it were just bathroom stalls it wouldn't that big of a deal. (Though amazingly most people don't realize that there are transmen, so you would need to actually create two different sets of facilities). That's harly a social activity after all.
But lots of other segregated facilities are. There are saunas with women- or men-only days or areas. There are womens shelters. There are protected spaces, counseling, hospital rooms. There are airport patdowns, prisons, being searched by the police. And so on and so forth.
In all those cases, segregating transgender individuals would be highly restrictive, highly discriminative and often very damaging. Why should we apply a special, seperate policy just for changing- or bathing rooms.

[amigocabal]

It wouldn't matter whether 100% or 0% of fathers with teenage daughters are bigots.
Civil rights are not to be determined by public votes.
Nor are peoples identities up to public opinion.

Good thing there is no civil right at issue here.

Also, there is a inherent difference between providing access to the disabled, and creating seperate facilities for transgendered people.The first PROVIDES access, the second REMOVES access.

The separate facility I proposed was merely a dressing room.

I never proposed that the pool itself be segregated.

A person in a wheelchair is enabled to integrate into society due to ramps and elevators and such.
A transgendered person is restricted from integrating into society due to segregated facilities.

Now obviously, if it were just bathroom stalls it wouldn't that big of a deal. (Though amazingly most people don't realize that there are transmen, so you would need to actually create two different sets of facilities). That's harly a social activity after all.
But lots of other segregated facilities are. There are saunas with women- or men-only days or areas. There are womens shelters. There are protected spaces, counseling, hospital rooms. There are airport patdowns, prisons, being searched by the police. And so on and so forth.
In all those cases, segregating transgender individuals would be highly restrictive, highly discriminative and often very damaging. Why should we apply a special, seperate policy just for changing- or bathing rooms.

There are different degrees of segregation. Lesser degrees may be justified, while greater degrees may not.

[Sidewinder]

What proportion of fathers with teenage daughters are bigots?

Is that an appeal to popularity I smell there?

The question on most people's minds is, "Does this transgendered person HAVE A PENIS? If yes, then this person is male." The alarmist parents probably think, "It doesn't matter what gender this person identifies as; as long as this person HAS A PENIS, this person is capable of committing rape."

If Colleen Francis had waited until AFTER she received sex reassignment surgery- i.e., had a PENECTOMY- I suspect the girls and their parents wouldn't even notice her.

[Alyeska]

Seperate but equal isn't

Treating transgender individuals differently and forcing them into a different status where they do not have the same rights as everyone else is grossly unfair and unequal. It is the definition of a Civil Rights issue.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

Sidewinder, do you believe transgender individuals should never reveal their existence in a way that might make people uncomfortable? Why do you feel that a group that is already marginalised, pressured, and kept from many areas of life due to bigotry should have to be the one to make all the concessions so as to prevent any discord? Do you think that if they keep their heads down and don't ever cause trouble that society will ever accept them?

[Sidewinder]

Jogurt, the fact remains that most people determine gender based on physical factors, i.e., WHAT CAN BE SEEN, not on psychological ones. I believe if a person has a penis, the person is male- regardless if the person was born with a penis, or received female-to-male sex reassignment surgery.

As for making concessions, all I ask is to be left alone. I'd ASK THE SAME of a heterosexual person- yes, even a Playboy Playmate- if I find this person annoying.

[TheHammer]

Perhaps they should simply change the signs on the door from "person in pants" or "person in dress" to pictures of a penis or pictures of a vagina. Gender "self identification" then wouldn't even factor in.

PROBLEM SOLVED

[Alyrium Denryle]

I'm not sure about the fears of rape in this case.

It happens. A lot. People feel amazingly free to brutalize and attack transpeople in any and every way possible for committing the crime of existing in their presence.

Yes, but if someone feels disturbed about other peoples sexual identity, like feeling deceived to be attracted to someone by their feminine features who then turns out to possess male genital parts, wouldn't rape be sort of inconsistent. Isn't that sort of analogous to if homophobes were to rape gay guys?

HAHAHAHAHAHA! About that! Homophobes raping gay men happens more frequently than you would think.

"violent" rape (I am using the term to distinguish particularly brutal types of rape from other types of rape which is inherently violent) is used specifically to brutalize and demean someone. To rob them of dignity and put them under your power. The point is not to get the rocks off, but to turn someone into a victim. When I was in Jr. High, someone sexually assaulted me in a public cafeteria by way of attempting (unsuccessfully) to violate me with a soda bottle. It is a thing.

Do you see the potential conflict here? You’ve argued both that men should be considerate of the feelings of women because of the prejudices that arise from physical appearances, and that those exact same prejudices from those exact same women should be disregarded when confronted by what superficially appears to be a man in a dress joining them in the ladies’ change room, because as you put it elsewhere here, “A reasonable person knows that transwomen exist and have uses for public facilities.”.

Considerate yes. But men (and transwomen) should not be discriminated against in their use of public facilities. Big difference. Now, I dont know how far along Ms Francis is in transition. It is one thing if she is not on hormone therapy, because at least then the reactions and call to police make sense etc. The article was so slanted as to call a transwoman a man and not offer any clues as to transition status so... yeah.

A man thinking about their surroundings and how other people might view their actions and take steps to signal that they are not a threat is reasonable. If I (a person who walks very quickly) am walking down a street at night behind a woman, I am not going to ominously get behind her and pass very closely. I will cross the street, move off to the side, or if that is not possible give her a heads up before I pass so that I am not some looming footsteps in the dark. Hell, I might just sing in latin/german/old norse/low german/french (I like medieval and renaissance music, shut up) so that she knows I am there and just going about my business.

That is a far cry from saying that these same fears justify barring transwomen from public facilities, treating them like crap, or forcing them to use the men's changing room where the chance of being raped for her is higher than that of a six year old in a catholic priest convention.

I’m not arguing what she or anyone else should have or had the right to do, but it seems as though your position on reasonable behaviour has some conflicts.

Not conflicts. The whole point is that people should be empathetic (in the sense that they try to put themselves into someone else's shoes) and courteous until such courtesy enters "fucking over oneself or someone else" territory. In the one thread, I was talking about only one thing--the statistically justified fear of being raped and how non-douchebag men can and should make the lives of women easier.

In this case, the rules dont change, but the values inside the metaphorical equation do.

Okay, assuming that it is correct that Colleen Francis merely intended to simply use the locker room merely to get dressed, how was the girls' swim coach supposed to know that?

The swim coach made the right call.

Seeing as your article insisted on calling Ms Francis a man, and used male pronouns even after revealing that she is trans, I doubt that. What they saw (because I have hunted it down elsewhere since early in this posting) is a transwoman in hormone therapy. She has breasts, not very well developed ones mind you, but breasts. She has a female voice either due to hormone therapy or speech therapy. It is not as if a 45 year old man in jeans and a t shirt walked in and undressed. The freakout would be reasonable then.

No such right call was made. Why? Because you cannot assume a transwoman is a sexual predator. In fact statistically, the swim coach is more likely to be.

What proportion of fathers with teenage daughters are bigots?

In my experience, most. Not that it matters because human rights ought not be subject to majority whim.

Good thing there is no civil right at issue here.

Equal treatment in use of public facilities, fuckface. It is the definition of a civil rights issue.

Speaking of which, the parents have retained the Right Wing Fundie Christian "Alliance Defending Freedom" and may pursue damage claims. I think we all know that these people are not parents legitimately concerned for their children, but bigots.







Sidewinder and Hammer... both of you are too stupid to talk.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

I believe if a person has a penis, the person is male- regardless if the person was born with a penis, or received female-to-male sex reassignment surgery.

This belief causes misery and promotes an atmosphere that allows harm to people who tend to have a pretty tough life already. Why do you feel you should hold on to this belief in spite of that?

Edit: To clarify, I mean "the belief that gender is tied to the external appearance of genitals rather than gender idenity". This belief ALSO makes life worse for intersex individuals, so way to go there, too.

Perhaps they should simply change the signs on the door from "person in pants" or "person in dress" to pictures of a penis or pictures of a vagina. Gender "self identification" then wouldn't even factor in.

PROBLEM SOLVED

If by "problem solved" you mean "create situations where transwomen are forced to be vulnerable around potentially hostile cismen and ciswomen are transmen are also forced into each other's safe zones" then yes, congratulations, you "solved" the problem.

[Instant Sunrise]

Why don't you watch the video at the top of this page. Watch every minute, every second and every frame of it and tell me that promoting this patently incorrect idea that trans women are an inherent threat in restrooms and locker rooms isn't harmful.

Statistically, a trans woman like myself is FAR for likely to be the victim of assault when I walk into a restroom or locker room than I am to be the perpetrator.

The last thing I need to walk into a special "TRANS-ONLY" bathroom and announce my trans status to the world, when otherwise people would have no way of telling.

Requiring us to use separate facilities is tantamount to requiring us to broadcast out trans status to the world, putting us in very real danger.

Is that what you fucking want?

[Sidewinder]

I believe if a person has a penis, the person is male- regardless if the person was born with a penis, or received female-to-male sex reassignment surgery.

This belief causes misery and promotes an atmosphere that allows harm to people who tend to have a pretty tough life already. Why do you feel you should hold on to this belief in spite of that?

Edit: To clarify, I mean "the belief that gender is tied to the external appearance of genitals rather than gender idenity". This belief ALSO makes life worse for intersex individuals, so way to go there, too.

I'm not psychic- I'm unlikely to tell if a person is transgendered or not, unless the person specifically tells me so. I use the "external appearance of genitals rather than gender identity" to identify a person's gender, because otherwise I can't tell the difference.

Put it this way: If I were a parent, my main concern would be, "Is Colleen Francis a HETEROSEXUAL MAN who's lying about transgender status, to gain access to the women's changing room?"

[Alyrium Denryle]

Put it this way: If I were a parent, my main concern would be, "Is Colleen Francis a HETEROSEXUAL MAN who's lying about transgender status, to gain access to the women's changing room?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Yes. Because obviously a heterosexual man goes on hormone therapy and grows a set of tits in order to score with jailbait.

It is one thing to not be able to tell post transition. It is another not to be able to tell during. It is pretty damn obvious, especially once hormone therapy is well under way. But of course, the parents involved actually are bigot who dont want transgendered people in any stage using these facilities. If they were not as such, they would not have retained an anti-gay/anti-trans lawfirm.

[TheHammer]

Perhaps they should simply change the signs on the door from "person in pants" or "person in dress" to pictures of a penis or pictures of a vagina. Gender "self identification" then wouldn't even factor in.

PROBLEM SOLVED

If by "problem solved" you mean "create situations where transwomen are forced to be vulnerable around potentially hostile cismen and ciswomen are transmen are also forced into each other's safe zones" then yes, congratulations, you "solved" the problem.

That's a weak argument. I'm not exactly sure what the fuck a "cisman" is, but this specific situation itself illustrates that there is in fact increased hostility by using a self-identified but anatomically incorrect locker room. Further, anyone who is likely to be hostile towards a trans-gendered person is also likely to be hostile towards homosexuals. But homosexuals still use the appropriate anatomically assigned facilities do they not?

If there are anatomically specific locker rooms, then regardless of self-identification, sexual orientation, or any other criteria then you should use the appropriate room. And if you are harassed in some way because of it then the harassers should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[Dark Hellion]

Perhaps they should simply change the signs on the door from "person in pants" or "person in dress" to pictures of a penis or pictures of a vagina. Gender "self identification" then wouldn't even factor in.

PROBLEM SOLVED

If by "problem solved" you mean "create situations where transwomen are forced to be vulnerable around potentially hostile cismen and ciswomen are transmen are also forced into each other's safe zones" then yes, congratulations, you "solved" the problem.

That's a weak argument. I'm not exactly sure what the fuck a "cisman" is, but this specific situation itself illustrates that there is in fact increased hostility by using a self-identified but anatomically incorrect locker room. Further, anyone who is likely to be hostile towards a trans-gendered person is also likely to be hostile towards homosexuals. But homosexuals still use the appropriate anatomically assigned facilities do they not?

If there are anatomically specific locker rooms, then regardless of self-identification, sexual orientation, or any other criteria then you should use the appropriate room. And if you are harassed in some way because of it then the harassers should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt Hammer because I think you are simply ignorant of the issues that transgendered individuals deal with and are not an active bigot but your proposal is based on an absolutely silly ideal of how people react and fails miserably in the real world because people are actually viscous little bastards who do regularly beat the shit out of and sexually assault those that do not fit normal gender identities.

Frankly, Coleen probably should have practiced a bit more discretion in use of the locker room but so should a good proportion of people who use public locker rooms. But lack of discretion does not imply any threat of sexual assault that is being put out in this thread. For the most part this comes down to overprotective parents being scared of their daughters possibly seeing a penis (you'd think we'd deal with this better after 10,000 years of civilization) who do not understand how transgendered individuals think and now have picked up the momentum of a bunch of bigoted groups.

[TheHammer]

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt Hammer because I think you are simply ignorant of the issues that transgendered individuals deal with and are not an active bigot but your proposal is based on an absolutely silly ideal of how people react and fails miserably in the real world because people are actually viscous little bastards who do regularly beat the shit out of and sexually assault those that do not fit normal gender identities.

Hey, fucktard, the point i'm making is that you are only going to provoke more hostility from people who otherwise wouldn't really give a damn. People who go to gyms with separate facilities because they don't want their daughters to see penis. I'm pretty sure they don't want them to see penis of any creed, color, or sexual orientation. They are not bigots.

By your logic gay males, and anatomical females who self identified as male would ALL be "safer" in the women's locker room. Basically you end up with a situation where you have one locker room for straight males, who for the most part are good decent people, and a locker room for everyone else. There are assholes everywhere who take joy in assaulting people who don't fit their idea of "normal". The solution is to find and prosecute them. That's how you make the world better for gay/transgendered etc. Not by hiding them in a "safer" locker room.

Frankly, Coleen probably should have practiced a bit more discretion in use of the locker room but so should a good proportion of people who use public locker rooms. But lack of discretion does not imply any threat of sexual assault that is being put out in this thread. For the most part this comes down to overprotective parents being scared of their daughters possibly seeing a penis (you'd think we'd deal with this better after 10,000 years of civilization) who do not understand how transgendered individuals think and now have picked up the momentum of a bunch of bigoted groups.

Which quite frankly is exactly my point. Most decent parents would likely be considered "over protective". These are people who otherwise would have no issue with a transgendered person, but because you choose to ram your ideas about what penises their daughters should and shouldn't be allowed to see down their throats they are pushing back.

[Korto]

I'm not exactly sure what the fuck a "cisman" is,

Seriously? You can't use your brain and work it out from context? "Cis" apparently means a person where mind and body both agree about what gender they are. The word's been used here before.

Alyrium, that letter was stupid, but when a group's called "Alliance Defending Freedom" (oh for fuck's sake) I guess you can't expect anything else (ironically, with a name like that, you would think they'd take the other side, but never mind).
Thank-you for giving us an idea of how far along she is, because that's a burning question. If she was totally physically male (which we couldn't tell from what was given earlier), then it would be a different circumstance, just as it will be different again after she has her dick off (assuming she does).
But we still have a situation here. I agree, taking what you say of her physical state, the male change-rooms are not really suitable, but the female ones aren't yet a great fit either. We come from a prudish culture, where it's felt that children underage should not be exposed to the sight of genitals of the opposite sex, whatever you may think of that taboo. We have young girls using the change-rooms, who may not necessarily have the mental wherewithal to, when suddenly confronted with someone to all immediate appearances obviously male (sorry, but the possession of a dick trumps the possession of breasts and a high voice. Man-boobs aren't all that uncommon) and naked, leap to the understanding that this is a trans-woman and everything is fine. The girls are a product of their culture too. If full-frontal naked pictures of men were put up in the girls change room, don't you think there would be complaints? What's the difference, except that a living, moving form is much more real than a poster?
Try using some of that empathy you talked about for the other side too.
Don't they have a disabled toilet there? And before you get all offended that I suggest the disabled toilet like they're some kind of cripple, know that I'VE used the disabled toilet in the past. It's a convenient place for nappy changes and the like, roomy and private. Clean, too, opposed to many male toilets. It's a practical decision, and carries no animus. If not, what about a staff area she can use? She shouldn't be relegated to a broom closet, that's just insulting, but surely some private space can be made for her.

As long as our culture teaches that children should be protected from the sight of the members of members of the opposite sex (yes, I enjoyed that), this is a problem, and people shouldn't be attacked for being products of their own culture.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Hey, fucktard, the point i'm making is that you are only going to provoke more hostility from people who otherwise wouldn't really give a damn. People who go to gyms with separate facilities because they don't want their daughters to see penis. I'm pretty sure they don't want them to see penis of any creed, color, or sexual orientation. They are not bigots.

You know what happens when a transwoman mid-transition are forced to use the men's locker room? They get raped or beaten up. That is what happens.

And yes, they are bigots. We know they are bigots because they have retained an actual bigot law firm in order to sue non-discrimination laws out of existence or applicability.

The solution is to find and prosecute them.

That does not help the people who are beaten into hospitalization or raped. Creating a safe environment is not something to be sneered at, because simply punishing does no one any good.

That's how you make the world better for gay/transgendered etc. Not by hiding them in a "safer" locker room.

You really really are too fucking stupid to breath, let alone talk. Here. Let me explain this to you.

A person who is transgendered has a few problems.

1) They have the wrong brain for their body. This creates gender-dismorphia, kind of like phantom limb syndrome, but everywhere. This can, on its own lead to depression and suicidal ideation. That is what transition is for. By making them use birth-sex restrooms and locker rooms, we basically spit in their face every time they have to change after a workout. Pointing out to them they are malformed. This creates social isolation.

2) I want you to put your atrophied little neurons to work really hard on this. In the case of transwoman, for a long time (it can take years of hormone therapy and saving up before they get Reassigned) during transition, they are basically women... who have a penis. They are not a danger to anyone, and if someone in there is a little shocked that is fine. Warn them in advance with a sign on the door to the women's locker room that says "Transwoman may use this facility. This is normal, legal, and you should not be alarmed". That deals with the non-bigots who might have an outside context problem. If we force them to use the men's locker room though... it is a recipe for them to be raped. Again, their chances of being raped are really really high, and it is not acquaintance rape. For transwomen, that is the form hate crimes typically take. Transmen have it even worse off, because in the men's locker room they will be raped, and in the women's locker room...well... gender dismorphia.

Why wont people typically be raped or beaten in the women's locker room? That is a complicated question, and it stems mostly from the fact that males and females solve their conflicts and victimize people in different ways. That, and women dont as often have masculinity hangups that would cause them to beat up someone else to prove it/scorn them for not having said masculinity. Female rapists are very very rare. Beating might happen, but not AS often.

Has that sunk in yet? Are your brain cells keeping up?

[Instant Sunrise]

To give one example, Chrissy Lee Polis was severely beaten in a Baltimore McDonald's for using the women's restroom. The employees of the store did nothing except videotape the incident and post it on YouTube, not even calling the police. Forcing trans people to reveal themselves as transgender just to use the bathroom is monumentally stupid and places us IN VERY REAL LIFE-THREATENING DANGER.

[spaceviking]

But your McDonalads example shows that a women's facilities are not safe either. If a special trans facility is not safe, then there are no safe places for tans people to use.

[TheHammer]

I'm not exactly sure what the fuck a "cisman" is,

Seriously? You can't use your brain and work it out from context? "Cis" apparently means a person where mind and body both agree about what gender they are. The word's been used here before.

Yes I understood from the context what it meant. I simply didn't know what the hell the "CIS" prefix was supposed to represent. Clearly you don't have an answer, so kindly shut the fuck up.

Hey, fucktard, the point i'm making is that you are only going to provoke more hostility from people who otherwise wouldn't really give a damn. People who go to gyms with separate facilities because they don't want their daughters to see penis. I'm pretty sure they don't want them to see penis of any creed, color, or sexual orientation. They are not bigots.

You know what happens when a transwoman mid-transition are forced to use the men's locker room? They get raped or beaten up. That is what happens.

I challenge that assertion. While I'm sure that could happen, it would certainly be the exception. If you've got recent statistics that prove otherwise present them.

And yes, they are bigots. We know they are bigots because they have retained an actual bigot law firm in order to sue non-discrimination laws out of existence or applicability.

I was speaking in general terms, not specifics. Further, even if we are talking specifics, while they may have retained a law firm that has represented bigots doesn't mean that their motives are bigoted.

The solution is to find and prosecute them.

That does not help the people who are beaten into hospitalization or raped. Creating a safe environment is not something to be sneered at, because simply punishing does no one any good.

That's how you make the world better for gay/transgendered etc. Not by hiding them in a "safer" locker room.

You really really are too fucking stupid to breath, let alone talk. Here. Let me explain this to you.

Fuck you too

A person who is transgendered has a few problems.

1) They have the wrong brain for their body. This creates gender-dismorphia, kind of like phantom limb syndrome, but everywhere. This can, on its own lead to depression and suicidal ideation. That is what transition is for. By making them use birth-sex restrooms and locker rooms, we basically spit in their face every time they have to change after a workout. Pointing out to them they are malformed. This creates social isolation.

Lots of people have problems. They have to deal with them.

2) I want you to put your atrophied little neurons to work really hard on this. In the case of transwoman, for a long time (it can take years of hormone therapy and saving up before they get Reassigned) during transition, they are basically women... who have a penis. They are not a danger to anyone, and if someone in there is a little shocked that is fine. Warn them in advance with a sign on the door to the women's locker room that says "Transwoman may use this facility. This is normal, legal, and you should not be alarmed". That deals with the non-bigots who might have an outside context problem. If we force them to use the men's locker room though... it is a recipe for them to be raped. Again, their chances of being raped are really really high, and it is not acquaintance rape. For transwomen, that is the form hate crimes typically take. Transmen have it even worse off, because in the men's locker room they will be raped, and in the women's locker room...well... gender dismorphia.

Danger is fairly irrelevent. A straight man might pose no danger in a women's locker room either, but it still isn't permitted. Gay men should pose no danger in the women's locker room, but it still isn't permitted.

And I wouldn't have a problem if there was a sign such as you just mentioned. However that doesn't appear to have been the case here.

And again I challenge your statistics of "really really high chance of rape".

Why wont people typically be raped or beaten in the women's locker room? That is a complicated question, and it stems mostly from the fact that males and females solve their conflicts and victimize people in different ways. That, and women dont as often have masculinity hangups that would cause them to beat up someone else to prove it/scorn them for not having said masculinity. Female rapists are very very rare. Beating might happen, but not AS often.

Has that sunk in yet? Are your brain cells keeping up?

I don't think you understood even half of what I was saying. I really don't even feel like trying to re-explain it. I'm sure my intended audience understood, you'll stick your head in the sand as is typical and demand that society conform to what YOU want it to be.

[Alyeska]

Jogurt, the fact remains that most people determine gender based on physical factors, i.e., WHAT CAN BE SEEN, not on psychological ones. I believe if a person has a penis, the person is male- regardless if the person was born with a penis, or received female-to-male sex reassignment surgery.

As for making concessions, all I ask is to be left alone. I'd ASK THE SAME of a heterosexual person- yes, even a Playboy Playmate- if I find this person annoying.

You would consign someone to a torturous existence. Those who suffer from Gender Identity Disorder have a brain that is almost identical to the opposite physical sex.

A person born male with GID has a brain that if brain scanned would look almost identical to a natural born female. By refusing to acknowledge the actual brain of the person, you ensure they will lead a tortured existence.

And you completely ignore the existence of ambiguous genitalia, XY Females, Chimeras, and all those gender disorders that don't fit neatly on a two sided dice.

[amigocabal]

Seperate but equal isn't

Treating transgender individuals differently and forcing them into a different status where they do not have the same rights as everyone else is grossly unfair and unequal. It is the definition of a Civil Rights issue.

That depends on what the different status is.

I will admit that, contrary to my previous post, there was a civil right implicated- in this case the Washington ERA, which is more restrictive than the Fourteenth Amendment with respect to sex.

However, the very existence of sex segregated locker rooms in public universities belies the idea that separate but equal facilities for men and women are always prohibited. Under the ERA, a dedicated dressing facility for trans people may be permitted, while the complete exclusion of trans people from universities and public pools may be prohibited.

Speaking of which, the parents have retained the Right Wing Fundie Christian "Alliance Defending Freedom" and may pursue damage claims. I think we all know that these people are not parents legitimately concerned for their children, but bigots.

I am aware of the Alliance Defending Freedom's work. They are defending a county district court clerk in Oklahoma against a marriage lawsuit. The parents just want their children to be safe. The ADF lawyer, David Hacker, cited several cases like Van Dinter and Bailey.

And you completely ignore the existence of ambiguous genitalia, XY Females, Chimeras, and all those gender disorders that don't fit neatly on a two sided dice.

I never opposed reasonable accommodations for them.

[Korto]

I'm not exactly sure what the fuck a "cisman" is,

Seriously? You can't use your brain and work it out from context? "Cis" apparently means a person where mind and body both agree about what gender they are. The word's been used here before.

Yes I understood from the context what it meant. I simply didn't know what the hell the "CIS" prefix was supposed to represent. Clearly you don't have an answer, so kindly shut the fuck up.

From wikipedia

In gender studies, cisgender and cissexual gender identities are two related types of gender identity where an individual's self-perception and presentation of their gender matches the behaviors and roles considered appropriate for one's sex.

So close enough, although the whole article should be read, as, for instance, cross-dressers may not apparently be considered cisgender, while being cissexual.

At least I'm capable of looking something up when I decide I really have to know precisely, instead of just whining about it.

[ChaserGrey]

Put it this way: If I were a parent, my main concern would be, "Is Colleen Francis a HETEROSEXUAL MAN who's lying about transgender status, to gain access to the women's changing room?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Yes. Because obviously a heterosexual man goes on hormone therapy and grows a set of tits in order to score with jailbait.

Yeah, this. I have to admit I was slightly on the "anti" side until I saw pictures of Ms. Francis that made it visually obvious she was undergoing transition. Not undergoing transition doesn't make someone less transgendered, of course, but it does make their claims a lot harder to evaluate.

Put it this way: I don't think it would be bigoted to freak out if a cis-appearing male showed up in the locker room and said, "Hey, it's cool, I'm a woman in a man's body". Sure, it could be true, but there are a lot of less-benevolent explanations. But people should know what someone who's transitioning looks like and be aware that it's not something done lightly or casually, or without a valid diagnosis or gender dysphoria. The letter makes it sound like they're afraid J. Random Pedophile could run down to the doctor, get some hormones, and be all set to cruise locker rooms. It just doesn't work that way.