Miss Universe Canada are a bunch of Transphobic fucks

[SilverWingedSeraph]

So say Jenna Talakhova five times fast. Sounds like "Genital, lack of a" to me.

How the fuck are you pronouncing it? The "lackova" part doesn't sound A DAMN THING LIKE "lack of a" no matter how quickly you pronounce it, unless you are intentionally pronouncing it fucking wrong because you PERCIEVE a "hur hur funny joke pronounciation of her name that MUST be intentional" from the spelling of it. It's tal-ah-koh-vah. Not tal-lack-ov-ah, which I'm assuming is the way you must be pronouncing it.

[Count Chocula]

He also didn't check the bottom of the barrel thread where that exact joke was already made.

Oh shit, THAT's where it was! I posted my reply, and an hour or two later saw it mentioned in Testing (I thought). I checked Testing and it wasn't there.

All credit to Agent Fisher for getting the joke before me. At least there are two of us who noticed.

As for "her" being in a woman's beauty pageant, well, it's Trump's business and Trump's rules. If I were a pro athlete looking over the Miss Universe contestants for a potential trophy wife, I'd kinda sorta really really want one who was born a woman and can have trophy kids. Ms. Talackova may look like a woman, a good looking woman, and act like a woman, but biologically "she" is NOT a woman.

[Simon_Jester]

*Hir is a gender-neutral pronoun. It's either used when you want to be gender-correct when referring to a non-specified person (such as "when anyone ask for me, tell hir that i am unavailable" instead of "tell him", because you don't know whether the person asking will be male or female), or when referring to an individual that identifies neither as male nor as female.

In all honesty, I prefer to simply use the pronoun "they" for gender-neutral third-person singular.

I hope that wins out over the long run; it's a much more organic and natural evolution of the English language.

EDIT: Come to think of it, what do you do in German?

[spaceviking]

I have never heard someone use "Hir' outside of this thread and a gender studies class.

[Instant Sunrise]

He also didn't check the bottom of the barrel thread where that exact joke was already made.

Oh shit, THAT's where it was! I posted my reply, and an hour or two later saw it mentioned in Testing (I thought). I checked Testing and it wasn't there.

All credit to Agent Fisher for getting the joke before me. At least there are two of us who noticed.

As for "her" being in a woman's beauty pageant, well, it's Trump's business and Trump's rules. If I were a pro athlete looking over the Miss Universe contestants for a potential trophy wife, I'd kinda sorta really really want one who was born a woman and can have trophy kids. Ms. Talackova may look like a woman, a good looking woman, and act like a woman, but biologically "she" is NOT a woman.

Well since I like to think of people as more than just their genitals, I consider her to be a woman.

But by your logic, should we exclude infertile cis women from competing, since you or your hypothetical pro athlete are only looking at their ability to have children?

[Simon_Jester]

Come to think of it, does the pageant exist mainly to identify potential trophy wives for athletes at all? Why can't they do that on their own time?

[Count Chocula]

Come to think of it, does the pageant exist mainly to identify potential trophy wives for athletes at all? Why can't they do that on their own time?

Dunno. Ask Marc Anthony, he's got the experience.

Edit: yes, athletes have also married MUs, Marc Anthony was the first guy that came to mind. He's a celebrity so I lump him in the same category.

[Kuja]

I have never heard someone use "Hir' outside of this thread and a gender studies class.

I have a couple of friends who use it. I guess it depends on the circles you run in.

[loomer]

He also didn't check the bottom of the barrel thread where that exact joke was already made.

Oh shit, THAT's where it was! I posted my reply, and an hour or two later saw it mentioned in Testing (I thought). I checked Testing and it wasn't there.

All credit to Agent Fisher for getting the joke before me. At least there are two of us who noticed.

As for "her" being in a woman's beauty pageant, well, it's Trump's business and Trump's rules. If I were a pro athlete looking over the Miss Universe contestants for a potential trophy wife, I'd kinda sorta really really want one who was born a woman and can have trophy kids. Ms. Talackova may look like a woman, a good looking woman, and act like a woman, but biologically "she" is NOT a woman.

Since when was the Miss Universe pageant billed as a catalogue for athletes to find wives in? Oh, and drop the quotation marks when referring to a trans individual, it's considered moderately offensive.

[Count Chocula]

Sorry loomer, I don't mean to offend. The only transsexual I've known, even peripherally, was a 6 foot 220 pound Home Depot employee. I saw his progression for about a year and a half before he (I suppose) quit his job, and it was an odd experience. I'm using "hir" and "she" ITT because I can understand rationally, but not come to mental grips with, an attractive transsexual competing in a pageant invented so heterosexual males can gawk at beautiful women. I can't find a frame of reference that would let me see Jenna as a woman, and that's MY shortcoming.

[Simon_Jester]

Come to think of it, does the pageant exist mainly to identify potential trophy wives for athletes at all? Why can't they do that on their own time?

Dunno. Ask Marc Anthony, he's got the experience.

Edit: yes, athletes have also married MUs, Marc Anthony was the first guy that came to mind. He's a celebrity so I lump him in the same category.

I'm sure they do, but that doesn't mean the pageant is a celebrity dating service. If it is, they should damn well pay for it on their own. Some random basketball player doesn't have any right to complain if the pageant picks someone he doesn't want to marry. So it's a dumb criticism.

[madd0ct0r]

Also, this thread needs more pictures. For uh, scientific purposes.
Spoiler

The frame you need chocula, is the one around this picture.

Would you get so freaked out going out with a girl with breast implants or had had liposuction?

How about a repaired cleft lip, or facial reconstruction?

What was is not what is, and the person behind the eyes hasn't changed.

[Count Chocula]

I'm a tall, thin man. When I look at that frame, madd0ct0r, I see a guy's shoulders, arms and legs. The boobs are obvious add-ons. She doesn't freak me out. Jenna is obviously happy with her choice of sexuality and name. My frame of reference that categorizes "woman" includes a vagina and a womb. Jenna's out of context for me, while the MU pageant of gorgeous women who have the above referenced body parts IS in context. For me.

[madd0ct0r]

Belgium: http://cdn.missuniverse.com/media/photo ... 5_2011.jpg

Canada: http://cdn.missuniverse.com/media/photo ... 5_2011.jpg

Chile: http://cdn.missuniverse.com/media/photo ... 5_2011.jpg

Egypt: http://cdn.missuniverse.com/media/photo ... 5_2011.jpg

When I look at these photos I see a guy's shoulders, arms and legs. The boobs are obvious add-ons. (especially Egypt, what is up with her proportions?)

I'm pretty sure you'll find that Jenna has a vagina, and I'm pretty sure (unless your bedroom play runs to the medical) that'll you only ever find out about a woman's womb indirectly. You could just admit you're prejudiced.

[Count Chocula]

Okay, I'm prejudiced. I wish MU Canada the very best but would still prefer she not be a contestant.

[madd0ct0r]

Do you think being prejudiced is a good thing?

[Count Chocula]

In that I don't want to date a woman who was a boy, yes. It's good for me, especially since I'm married to a Cuban who would cut off my cojones with a letter opener if I strayed. If you're trying to cast a wider net and aver that I'm just prejudiced in general against everything that's not me, piss off.

[Serafina]

I have never heard someone use "Hir' outside of this thread and a gender studies class.

Nor have i, nor do i use it.

I sometimes use the german equivalent, but that's because it's more important. Most words are actually gendered - "Teilnehmer" for example (it means participant) can mean both a singular, male participant and multiple participants of male or mixed gender - only if it were exclusively female participants you would say Teilnehmerinnen. Which is why i usually write Teilehmer/innen or, more often these days, Teilnehmer_innen (the _ denotes inclusion of gender-variant individuals. Yes, you can actually say it, too, by making a short pause).

But again, it's not something i value extremely, especially not in english where the problem is less severe, and Choculas usage of it is actually a mark of intolerance.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Okay, I'm prejudiced. I wish MU Canada the very best but would still prefer she not be a contestant.

"I am a self-conscious bigot and am scared that I might find her attractive, so she shouldn't be a contestant because I don't want to think of her as a woman."

In that I don't want to date a woman who was a boy, yes. It's good for me, especially since I'm married to a Cuban who would cut off my cojones with a letter opener if I strayed. If you're trying to cast a wider net and aver that I'm just prejudiced in general against everything that's not me, piss off.

You don't want trans-women to exist, or at the very least, you don't want them to be treated as women, because you're a bigot. You're not even ashamed of the fact you're a bigot. Nobody was asking you to want to date her. Is wanting to date someone a prerequisite for them being a woman to you? If you don't want to stick your dick in it, it must not be a woman?

Seems like someone has insecurities.

[Simon_Jester]

But again, it's not something i value extremely...

I was curious about pronouns, Serafina, specifically- because where English comes with specific male, female, and plural pronouns (he, she, they), German comes with male, neuter, female, and plural (er, es, sie, sie). I have no idea what you'd adapt for a gender-indeterminate pronoun: could you use "es" without it being insulting in its connotations in German?

especially not in english where the problem is less severe, and Choculas usage of it is actually a mark of intolerance.

"Intolerance" is not quite the right word, I think. I'd say he's either trying to sneer, or fumbling around for something to express his belief that Talackova is neither really male nor really female. "Intolerant" is too... vague to describe that.

[Broomstick]

I'm using "hir" and "she" ITT because I can understand rationally, but not come to mental grips with, an attractive transsexual competing in a pageant invented so heterosexual males can gawk at beautiful women. I can't find a frame of reference that would let me see Jenna as a woman, and that's MY shortcoming.

No shit, junior, you've got a shortcoming.

Look, even if you don't agree with them, at least recognize they're human beings who can feel pain. You don't need to add to it, even inadvertently. For future reference, here is how you do that:

1) Don't use indeterminate or confusing pronouns when, if the person was a cissexual person, you'd use an unambiguous gender pronoun. That means no made-up pronouns, no quotes around a pronoun, just a simple he or she.

2) Refer to people as they wish to be referred to. Yes, I know it's confusing but try anyway. If a bearded man in a suit comes out as a transwoman and announces the intention to begin transition congratulate her - because they have to start somewhere. Do you give shit to someone who is in the middle of a series of reconstructive surgeries? Do you give shit to someone with a half-completed tattoo? (Hint: if you do, you shouldn't). You don't have to agree with them, but more and more the polite convention is to do this. Get with the program.

As for why this woman wants to compete in a beauty pagent celebrating (or exploiting) female beauty as seen through the eyes of heterosexual males I would have thought it's painfully obvious. It's a validation that Ms. Talakhova is not only a woman, but a beautiful woman. It may not be the way other transwomen want to validate their femininity but it certainly does seem understandable.

And I think you perceive her as male only because you know her past history - there are certainly ciswomen who look more masculine than she does.

My frame of reference that categorizes "woman" includes a vagina and a womb.

So you no longer consider ciswomen who have had a hysterectomy to be women? What are they? Fish? Lizardpeople? Do you have ANY idea how retarded that statement is? I'm sure women who have had the trauma of vaginal removal due to cancer, who no doubt already feel unlovely and mutilated, REALLY would appreciate your attitude.

Here's a clue, moron - women do not exist solely to serve your sexual and reproductive needs. And that's what a statement like that says about you, that that is the ONLY reason you value a woman. That you don't seen them as human beings but as walking wombs and sex toys. If that's NOT how you perceive half of your fellow human beings then I suggest you engage in self-reflection before engaging your mouth next time.

[DudeGuyMan]

Oh I can sorta see where he's coming from. Like a couple years ago when that female-to-male dude who kept all his lady plumbing got pregnant and some of the press was all LOOK A PREGNANT MAN WOO. Well... come on. A statement like that needs a really big asterisk next to it. I'm all for taking people how they want to be taken, but if you've got a womb with a baby in it, I'm gonna have a real hard time thinking of you as a dude, even if you do have a manlier beard than I do.

The difference is, I don't feel like my personal perceptions are especially important, carry any particular moral weight, or should dictate what anyone else does.

On a separate, slightly facetious but still basically genuine note, I think stuff like this story is a great way to campaign for transgendered rights. Get the hotties out there. Men are infamously bad at arguing with their boners. If the boner says "girl" then the brain is going to have a hard time convincing it otherwise, and once you've made one exception, well shit.

[spaceviking]

Well I somewhat feel like Chocula in that I would never want to fuck a transwoman. However; until the Miss Universe adds in the much needed 'fuck spaceviking portion' this is really not pertinent. It is not about treating transwoman like woman, it is about treating everyone like human beings.

The question is not is this woman a biological woman, its is she the best display of femininity and whatever other criteria miss universe uses. If she loses because she was born a man, it should be because she has masculine legs or whatever. Not because she can't give birth.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I have never heard someone use "Hir' outside of this thread and a gender studies class.

I have a couple of friends who use it. I guess it depends on the circles you run in.

I've only seen it in a Star Trek novel about some starfleet captain that comes from a one-gender species.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I'd also like to say that, when you encounter a transperson, you refer to them however THEY want to be called. You don't pick whatever you're most comfortable with. I know some folks here think because I'm a Christian I'm opposed to these sorts of ideas, but I've known two good, decent people in my life who killed themselves because the world refused to see them the way they wanted to be seen.

Since then, I decided to just love and accept everyone, because that was the real message the bible taught me.