Trayvon Martin Case (Zimmerman charged; 2nd deg. murder)

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Locked
User avatar
Losonti Tokash
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2916
Joined: 2004-09-29 03:02pm

Re: Don't Be Black in Florida

Post by Losonti Tokash »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:I just want to clarify a few things here. As far as policy and/or training goes are you required to bandage all wounds or only specific wounds?
Most wounds. Not everything necessarily would need it or be required by policy, but it can be a liability issue if we don't treat it at all. Even scrapes should get at least some alcohol on them to prevent infection.
In my personal and professional experience not all head wounds bleed profusely but most do. Do you agree with that statement?
Definitely.
User avatar
aerius
Charismatic Cult Leader
Posts: 14792
Joined: 2002-08-18 07:27pm

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by aerius »

Anguirus wrote:Aerius, you should know that there has been a police report released: Trayvon Martin Police Report I'm surprised it hasn't come up in the thread yet, actually.

"The black male had his hands underneath his body" is not good for Zimmerman's (hypothetical) defense. Especially since at least one eyewitness, Mary Kutcher, alleges that Martin was killed near-instantly (they heard the shot, ran outside, Martin had already fallen).
I do know of that report and read through it yesterday.
But again we are just playing games here. There are possible explanations that are favorable to Zimmerman. I will have a lot more patience about this case if the special prosecutor charges Zimmerman, which as I understand she could do at any time.
Yup, anything we can come up with is just speculation. With regards to charging Zimmerman, that depends on what the forensics, autopsy, and all that other stuff comes up with. If they can't come up with the required evidence to charge him then it's not happening, or if they're stupid enough to try anyway then the case stands a good chance of being tossed out of court or having Zimmerman walk.
Image
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Simon_Jester »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Anguirus wrote:Yeah, that is disgusting behavior on the part of NBC. I wasn't quite ready to draw any conclusions from that video either.
Frankly, the only people that were ready to draw conclusions have very low standards for video. It isn't high quality when the letters on the back of the police vehicle are difficult to make out...
From the sound of it, it wasn't so much the low quality as it was that NBC had been fooling around with the video in ways that border on falsifying it, if not falsifying it outright.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
aerius
Charismatic Cult Leader
Posts: 14792
Joined: 2002-08-18 07:27pm

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by aerius »

For even more fun, go to the FotoForensics site and read up on how it works and what it does. Once you understand what you're looking for, go to google image search and plug a bunch of pictures of both Martin and Zimmerman through the FotoForensics site via the process URL tool.
Image
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Flagg »

The original footage was actually video filmed from a monitor, not the actual source IIRC.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
ChaserGrey
Jedi Knight
Posts: 501
Joined: 2010-10-17 11:04pm

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by ChaserGrey »

Aerius, I did that and didn't really see anything systematic. Maybe I'm not looking at the right ones, but what do you see?
Lt. Brown, Mr. Grey, and Comrade Syeriy on Let's Play BARIS
User avatar
aerius
Charismatic Cult Leader
Posts: 14792
Joined: 2002-08-18 07:27pm

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by aerius »

Nothing systematic, just that some photos appear to have been tinkered with more than others. There were a couple photos I saw which looked subtly smoothed over when viewed in their original form, but when plugged through the FF site it showed that they'd been given a thorough working over.

Maybe it's just clueless webpage editors, maybe not, I don't know.
Image
aerius: I'll vote for you if you sleep with me. :)
Lusankya: Deal!
Say, do you want it to be a threesome with your wife? Or a foursome with your wife and sister-in-law? I'm up for either. :P
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by PeZook »

aerius wrote:Nothing systematic, just that some photos appear to have been tinkered with more than others. There were a couple photos I saw which looked subtly smoothed over when viewed in their original form, but when plugged through the FF site it showed that they'd been given a thorough working over.

Maybe it's just clueless webpage editors, maybe not, I don't know.
Now why would publications, journals and TV stations tinker with pictures they publish, hmm?

Seriously, that site is worthless for any actual forensics. I plugged into it an Apollo frame , AS11-40-5931HR, scanned from JSC materials, and according to their instructions on interpreting the results, the background there was digitally modified, too.

I wouldn't make any judgements regarding criminal liability based on those results.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3114
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:Good developments. Finally looks like they have some decent evidence that Zimmerman isn't telling the truth.
Do you have any experience with these experts at "biometric voice analysis" and whatever techniques they use?

I am pretty skeptical that you could really get any sort of reliable analysis from a scream in the background of a poor quality 911 call. I do sound and voice analysis stuff all the time at work, and you need near-perfect recordings in lab conditions to even get decent looking waveforms. Granted, we aren't doing voice matching, and I don't know what algorithms they use, but I really am dubious that this is an empirical test of any sort. Especially from a scream, which is not representative of a person's normal speaking voice ... heck, even talking on the phone to the police isn't necessarily representative of that (you unconsciously change your voice when speaking to authority figures, usually making it lower if you are a man. Though there is some evidence that you will make your voice higher if you are trying to garner sympathy as a victim). I mean ... how do they even get this correlation? I assume they are looking at the envelope of the sound ... but what filters are they using to segregate this from background noise with sacrificing important aspects of the signal? You can't do anything as simple as amplitude or frequency-based cut-off filters with human voice, it's far too complex; they must be using some sort of time-pass?
Wing Commander MAD
Jedi Knight
Posts: 665
Joined: 2005-05-22 10:10pm
Location: Western Pennsylvania

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

Question for those more familiar with the details of the legal process: What is the use of this voice "evidence" procured by a third party, in this case the Orlando Sentinel, to the overall case? It seems like pointless drama to me.

I imagine if the defense wanted some kind of analysis done, they would hire an expert to do it for them, likewise for the prosecution if the State lacks in house capability. I could even see the defense using something produced by a third party as evidence, because it aids their case and they couldn't afford the analysis on their own*. However, I see no reason why the defense would use evidence that would harm its case, nor the prosecution tip its hand early by revealing the results of its investigation before the trial. This "revelation" that it is not Zimmerman on the tape seems like nothing more than a continuation of the ongoing media circus around this incident.

What good is armchair analysis, even if it's analysis conducted by real experts, when the investigators are not in any way affiliated with either party in the case and the results of their analysis will be ignored completely by the legal proceedings?

Note*: Providing the courts even allow such things.
User avatar
Kamakazie Sith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7555
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:00pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Good developments. Finally looks like they have some decent evidence that Zimmerman isn't telling the truth.
Do you have any experience with these experts at "biometric voice analysis" and whatever techniques they use?

I am pretty skeptical that you could really get any sort of reliable analysis from a scream in the background of a poor quality 911 call. I do sound and voice analysis stuff all the time at work, and you need near-perfect recordings in lab conditions to even get decent looking waveforms. Granted, we aren't doing voice matching, and I don't know what algorithms they use, but I really am dubious that this is an empirical test of any sort. Especially from a scream, which is not representative of a person's normal speaking voice ... heck, even talking on the phone to the police isn't necessarily representative of that (you unconsciously change your voice when speaking to authority figures, usually making it lower if you are a man. Though there is some evidence that you will make your voice higher if you are trying to garner sympathy as a victim). I mean ... how do they even get this correlation? I assume they are looking at the envelope of the sound ... but what filters are they using to segregate this from background noise with sacrificing important aspects of the signal? You can't do anything as simple as amplitude or frequency-based cut-off filters with human voice, it's far too complex; they must be using some sort of time-pass?
I did some research into Tom Owen and his company. His company appears to be established and they've published numerous papers. I don't have any reason to doubt them.

Owen Forensic Services
Milites Astrum Exterminans
User avatar
hunter5
Padawan Learner
Posts: 377
Joined: 2010-01-25 09:34pm

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by hunter5 »

Wing Commander MAD wrote:Question for those more familiar with the details of the legal process: What is the use of this voice "evidence" procured by a third party, in this case the Orlando Sentinel, to the overall case? It seems like pointless drama to me.

I imagine if the defense wanted some kind of analysis done, they would hire an expert to do it for them, likewise for the prosecution if the State lacks in house capability. I could even see the defense using something produced by a third party as evidence, because it aids their case and they couldn't afford the analysis on their own*. However, I see no reason why the defense would use evidence that would harm its case, nor the prosecution tip its hand early by revealing the results of its investigation before the trial. This "revelation" that it is not Zimmerman on the tape seems like nothing more than a continuation of the ongoing media circus around this incident.

What good is armchair analysis, even if it's analysis conducted by real experts, when the investigators are not in any way affiliated with either party in the case and the results of their analysis will be ignored completely by the legal proceedings?

Note*: Providing the courts even allow such things.
I have heard that similar evidence was allowed in a murder case in CT, but haven't been able to confirm.
User avatar
hunter5
Padawan Learner
Posts: 377
Joined: 2010-01-25 09:34pm

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by hunter5 »

Flagg wrote:Not exactly surprising since his mother recognized his voice on the 911 calls. Still, just another foot dug for Zimmermans grave.
But didn't the father of Martin say that wasn't his son on the or did I miss hear?
User avatar
SVPD
Jedi Master
Posts: 1277
Joined: 2005-05-05 10:07am
Location: Texas

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by SVPD »

Wing Commander MAD wrote:Question for those more familiar with the details of the legal process: What is the use of this voice "evidence" procured by a third party, in this case the Orlando Sentinel, to the overall case? It seems like pointless drama to me.

I imagine if the defense wanted some kind of analysis done, they would hire an expert to do it for them, likewise for the prosecution if the State lacks in house capability. I could even see the defense using something produced by a third party as evidence, because it aids their case and they couldn't afford the analysis on their own*. However, I see no reason why the defense would use evidence that would harm its case, nor the prosecution tip its hand early by revealing the results of its investigation before the trial. This "revelation" that it is not Zimmerman on the tape seems like nothing more than a continuation of the ongoing media circus around this incident.

What good is armchair analysis, even if it's analysis conducted by real experts, when the investigators are not in any way affiliated with either party in the case and the results of their analysis will be ignored completely by the legal proceedings?

Note*: Providing the courts even allow such things.
Expert testimony is admissible in court.

Strictly speaking, the only thing the voice analysis demonstrates is that the screaming on the recording in question is not Zimmerman. It does not prove that Martin was screaming. As a practical matter, however, it seems logical to assume Martin was the one screaming.

That said, it does not establish why. It does not, for example, allow us to infer that Martin was cowering in fear while Zimmerman shot him in cold blood. He might have been screaming just because he realized he'd attacked an armed man, or because he was in a fight. It's unknown. A good prosecutor will try to tie the lack of Zimemrman's screaming to his story that he was screaming to atack his credibility. A good defense attorney will try to call into question why Martin would have been screaming.

It seriously calls into question one portion of Zimmerman's story - but only one. I will say, however, that it's vastly better than almost all the other "evidence" that's been produced against him.
Shit like this is why I'm kind of glad it isn't legal to go around punching people in the crotch. You'd be able to track my movement from orbit from the sheer mass of idiots I'd leave lying on the ground clutching their privates in my wake. -- Mr. Coffee
User avatar
Dalton
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
Posts: 22634
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: New York, the Fuck You State
Contact:

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Dalton »

Zimmerman will "turn himself in if charged" as per his lawyer. What a swell guy.
Image
Image
To Absent Friends
Dalton | Admin Smash | Knight of the Order of SDN

"y = mx + bro" - Surlethe
"You try THAT shit again, kid, and I will mod you. I will
mod you so hard, you'll wish I were Dalton." - Lagmonster

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce.
Wing Commander MAD
Jedi Knight
Posts: 665
Joined: 2005-05-22 10:10pm
Location: Western Pennsylvania

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Wing Commander MAD »

Expert testimony is admissible in court.
I'm well aware of that. I am speaking about the two experts from the Orlando Sentinel article, not any whose analysis was funded by the State. My issue is more with the idea of the State using expert testimony whose analysis was funded by a third party, it just seems like a potential area for abuse to occur at some point. I very much doubt these two experts did this analysis as an act of charity, and even then I'm only comfortable with the idea of a 3rd party assisting the defense out of charitable notions. I am not comfortable offering the same to the State due to the massive resouce disparity between the parties involved.
User avatar
Beowulf
The Patrician
Posts: 10619
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:18am
Location: 32ULV

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Beowulf »

Dalton wrote:Zimmerman will "turn himself in if charged" as per his lawyer. What a swell guy.
...? What, the expectation is that instead of turning himself in, he should run for it?
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

yes, huff, huff top of the world ma!, damn this water tower is hard to get up,
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Dalton
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
For Those About to Rock We Salute You
Posts: 22634
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:16pm
Location: New York, the Fuck You State
Contact:

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Dalton »

Beowulf wrote:
Dalton wrote:Zimmerman will "turn himself in if charged" as per his lawyer. What a swell guy.
...? What, the expectation is that instead of turning himself in, he should run for it?
Never mind me. I'm just horribly biased in this case. I'll recuse myself from further commentary.
Image
Image
To Absent Friends
Dalton | Admin Smash | Knight of the Order of SDN

"y = mx + bro" - Surlethe
"You try THAT shit again, kid, and I will mod you. I will
mod you so hard, you'll wish I were Dalton." - Lagmonster

May the way of the Hero lead to the Triforce.
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Anguirus »

"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
Dominus Atheos
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3901
Joined: 2005-09-15 09:41pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Dominus Atheos »

[#flash=392,221]http://cdnapi.kaltura.com//index.php/kw ... 0_vzkmy3zr[/flash]
ABC wrote:George Zimmerman Video Shows Little Evidence of a Broken Nose, Doctor Claims

Enhanced video footage of George Zimmerman about 30 minutes after he shot Florida teenager Trayvon Martin shows little evidence of a broken nose, the president of the Florida College of Emergency Physicians said today.

But the video does show what could be an injury to the back of Zimmerman's head.

The never-before-seen evidence of an injury to Zimmerman, in this case a gash or mark to his head, would appear to back his claim that he was in an altercation with Martin on the night of Feb. 26 in Sanford, Fla. Zimmerman says he shot the teen in self defense after he was attacked.

Zimmerman, 28, claims Martin, 17, punched him in the nose, knocked him down and repeatedly slammed his head into the ground.

The police surveillance video, first obtained exclusively by ABC News last month and clarified by Forensic Protection, Inc., shows Zimmerman exiting the police cruiser with his hands cuffed behind his back. Zimmerman is frisked and then led down a series of hallways, still cuffed. At one point, one of the officers stops to look briefly at the back of Zimmerman's head.

There was no obvious sign of any injury to Zimmerman's head or face on the video until it was enhanced.

But Dr. Vidor Friedman, president of the Florida College of Emergency Physicians, remains unconvinced.

"If somebody had been beating his head against concrete I'd think we'd see more obvious scrapes," Friedman said. He also said he would expect to see bandages on Zimmerman's head.

More significantly for Friedman was the condition of Zimmerman's nose.

"All of the ridges in his nose are clearly defined. You would expect significant swelling in the hour or two after a break. There appears to be none. It doesn't look like his nose was broken or badly broken," Friedman said.

Police Video Surveillance of George Zimmerman

The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and his lawyer later claimed that Zimmeran suffered a broken nose. After receiving medical attention at the scene of the shooting, it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. He did not check into the emergency room following the police questioning.

The surveillance tape of Zimmerman, later released by the Sanford Police Department, could be used as evidence if Zimmerman is brought up on charges, sources tell ABC News.

Zimmerman's lawyer, Craig Sonner, has said his client felt "one of them was going to die that night," when he pulled the trigger.

The case has gained national prominence with rallies across the country demanding that Zimmerman be arrested and charged with murder.

Lawyers for Martin's family sent a letter to the Justice Department today asking that the federal probe into the killing look into the fact that Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee met with State Attorney Norm Wolfinger on the night of shooting. Lawyer Benjamin Crump also claims in the letter that members of Zimmerman's family were also present in the police station that night.

The lead homicide investigator, Chris Serino, wrote in an affidavit that he recommended manslaughter charges be brougth against Zimmerman but was advised by the prosecutor not to file charges because there was not enough evidence for a conviction, sources have told ABC News.

"We look forward to your thorough and comprehensive review of the suspicious circumstances surrounding this meeting," Crump wrote.

A Justice Department spokesman said the agency will review the Martin family letter.

State prosecutors are expected to go before a Seminole County grand jury on April 10 to determine what, if any, files should be charged.

An analysis of a 911 call done over the weekend by the Orlando Sentinel determined that screams for help overhead on a 911 came from Martin, although Zimmerman's family insist they recognize his voice in the screams.

Two evidence experts consulted by the Sentinel found the voice heard in a 911 call placed by a woman in a home near where the shooting occurred was only a 48 percent match to Zimmerman's voice. One of the experts, Tom Owen, told the Sentinel to reach a positive match he would expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen told the paper.

Owen,the chair emeritus at the American Board of Record Evidence, was not able to determine if the voice was that of Martin, the Sentinel reports, because he did not have audio of the teen's voice to compare to the shouts for help in the 911 call.
For some reason the board isn't allowing me to submit the post while the [flash] tag is active. Maybe a passing mod can correct that?

Anyway, it is true that if he actually had a broken nose, there should be a lot of blood on the front of his shirt which there isn't.
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

as someone whose broken a nose in soccar YES

my oppenent tried to stop my kick with his face...
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
Cosmic Average
Jedi Knight
Posts: 692
Joined: 2002-12-17 11:11am

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Cosmic Average »

Ziggy Stardust wrote:Especially from a scream, which is not representative of a person's normal speaking voice ... heck, even talking on the phone to the police isn't necessarily representative of that (you unconsciously change your voice when speaking to authority figures, usually making it lower if you are a man.
According to the standards set up by the American Board of Recorded Evidence, you need "ten comparable words between two samples" to make a credible determination. The screams are just the word "help" repeated.
The experts, both of whom said they have testified in cases involving audio analysis, stressed they cannot say who was screaming. They have no samples of Martin's voice.

Such analysis could play a role should there be a criminal or civil case over Martin's death. Primeau, who said he uses a combination of critical listening skills and spectrum analysis, called voice identification "an exact science" that can help a legal team in court.

Yet standards set by the American Board of Recorded Evidence indicate "there must be at least 10 comparable words between two voice samples to reach a minimal decision criteria." While Zimmerman says more than that many words on his 911 call, the only one heard on the second is a cry for "help."
Link
User avatar
Gil Hamilton
Tipsy Space Birdie
Posts: 12962
Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
Contact:

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Gil Hamilton »

aerius wrote:Also, this. http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/ ... roken-face

I'd say his nose looks a bit swollen in this screencap from the new videos
http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/upload ... 3/nose.jpg

For reference, this is how his nose normally looks like
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/03/ ... 06x423.jpg

And that looks like a bleeding wound on the back of his head
http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/upload ... nhance.jpg


To recap, NBC was caught pulling a Fox News worthy stunt to make Zimmerman look like a racist. ABC used low quality video and possibly doctored it as well to make the Zimmerman's head wound disappear.
Alright, I'm calling shenanigans. I watched the videos posted on that site, which were even better quality than the ones on CNN that I saw and they didn't look at all like he had an injury to the back of his head. The supposed "injury" to the back of the head appears for like 2 frames in the entire video, with the rest of it showing his head to be shiny and clean with no injury visible at all. Despite that, the website catches a still of a dark something that isn't consistently there and makes a screencap suggesting that all the other videos have been somehow doctored? Yeah, right. Those video clearly show no visible injuries on the guy, that isn't evidence that NBC and ABC are doctoring the "evidence" for some reason. What this shows is your dishonesty on the matter, not theres.

Further, what is there motive for "doctoring" those videos anyway? What does NBC care? I expect you to provide evidence for what ever you claim is there motive for lying about it.

EDIT: Further, people's skulls aren't completely smooth idea structures. The most logical explanation that Zimmerman has a lumpy ass head that can catch glancing shadows, thus explaining why it appears and vanishes, isn't even mentioned either in the website you linked or by you? Really?
Last edited by Gil Hamilton on 2012-04-04 11:50am, edited 1 time in total.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet

"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert

"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
User avatar
Ziggy Stardust
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3114
Joined: 2006-09-10 10:16pm
Location: Research Triangle, NC

Re: Trayvon Martin Case

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Cosmic Average wrote:According to the standards set up by the American Board of Recorded Evidence, you need "ten comparable words between two samples" to make a credible determination. The screams are just the word "help" repeated.
Thanks, that's good to know.
The experts, both of whom said they have testified in cases involving audio analysis, stressed they cannot say who was screaming. They have no samples of Martin's voice.

Such analysis could play a role should there be a criminal or civil case over Martin's death. Primeau, who said he uses a combination of critical listening skills and spectrum analysis, called voice identification "an exact science" that can help a legal team in court.

Yet standards set by the American Board of Recorded Evidence indicate "there must be at least 10 comparable words between two voice samples to reach a minimal decision criteria." While Zimmerman says more than that many words on his 911 call, the only one heard on the second is a cry for "help."
This is exactly why I am skeptical of this "evidence." There are huge obstacles to voice recognition analysis under perfect laboratory conditions, and in this they don't have NEARLY enough of a sample size to make any sort of determination. One scream of 'help', under stressful conditions, with less than optimal recording equipment. There is no way this should be at all admissible.

Further ...
Kamikazie Sith wrote: I did some research into Tom Owen and his company. His company appears to be established and they've published numerous papers. I don't have any reason to doubt them.
I am still curious as to what techniques they used for the purposes of this analysis, I can't find a copy of any of their publications online.

According to this INTERPOL report on forensic speech analysis (which, from 2001, MAY be out of date ... hard to know), there are three primary methods:
The first group consists of trained phoneticians. They rely primarily on a combination of auditory phonetic analysis and a variety of acoustic measurements, and will generally only consider themselves competent to analyse speech samples in their own native language ... Perhaps the main criticism of this type of approach is that it has a strong subjective element and does not easily lend itself to validation.
The second group consists of those who use a set of semi-automatic measurements of particular acoustic speech parameters such as vowel formants, articulation rate and the like, sometimes combined with the results of a detailed, largely auditory phonetic analysis by a human expert.
Most automatic speaker identification systems today use a form of Gaussian mixture modelling to characterise or 'model' the speech of the known, target speaker (i.e., frequently the suspect in a forensic application) and that of the unknown speaker (i.e., the perpetrator). In addition to this, a relevant speaker population is defined and a probability-density function of the speech variance of this set is calculated. What the method essentially sets out to do is determine how likely a degree of similarity or difference as found between the target speaker (say the suspect) and an unknown speaker (say the perpetrator) is to occur within the relevant population.
I assume from the description in that news article provided earlier that the last of the three was used in this case. The first two are heavily dependent on multiple utterances of the same phonemes, which would not be available in this instance. The third ... well, the Interpol report agrees with what I said earlier about the unreliability of this type of analysis:
As a result, speakers may not always be reliably distinguished, and the system will produce a certain proportion of false-positives. ... However, as in all biometric identification techniques, there is a trade-off between false-positives and false rejections, which means that a system that is biased towards reducing false-positives will tend to produce unacceptable levels of false rejections and/or report unrealistically low probability scores for matches.
The second problem is related to the extreme sensitivity to transmission channel effects of automatic procedures, including the effects of different handsets, telephone lines, GSM-coding and perception-based compression techniques as used in Minidisk players and compression formats like MPEG. Recent research by Schmidt Nielsen & Crystal [21] confirms that, while human listeners show tremendous individual variability in performance, on average they tend to slightly outperform current state-of-the-art speaker verification systems. More importantly, they found that it is especially when conditions deteriorate as a result of differences in transmission channels, the presence of background noise and the like that human listeners are clearly superior to automatic speaker verification algorithms. It is precisely these conditions that tend to prevail in the forensic context.
From my own professional experience with speech analysis, I would barely trust this type of forensic analysis under IDEAL lab conditions, never mind the extremely poor conditions we have in this instance.
Locked