The Dear Leader is Dead!

[CJvR]

Well following the traditional life cycle of family businessess, one generation builds the next administers and the third squander their inheritance, Kim III is set to be a spectacular faliure.

[Big Orange]

Well following the traditional life cycle of family businessess, one generation builds the next administers and the third squander their inheritance, Kim III is set to be a spectacular faliure.

Yeah, Kim Jong-un would easily run things into the ground if he was genuinely in charge, but he seems more like a figurehead for a faceless clique of party VIPs and military top brass who really run things: boy kings are more susceptible to the powers behind the throne.

North Korea is actually closer in nature to the Empire of Japan only with a Stalinist coat of paint (with monarch rulers as living gods and hyper militarism, etc) and this lengthy but interesting lecture by B.R. Myers (The Cleanest Race) confirms that. The Norks have a command economy, but only pay lip service to Marxism. Juchen is perhaps window dressing, a red herring. And as a hold over from the Japanese occupation (1910-1945), they have long adopted an ideology of cultural superiority and ethnic purity tied into their cult of personality.

And because of this fierce nationalism and xenophobia, North Korea goes way beyond just haggard looking people behind a frontier of razor wire being bossed about by small men in silly uniforms: it's an ongoing holocaust that has already confirmed to have killed 6 million people through its internal and foreign policies (and most likely many more deaths will be revealed when NK finally unravels, with the decades of famines, executions, overwork, and chemical weapon experiments that rival Japan's infamous Unit 731).

Here's a two part video of North Korea's camp system:



North Korea seems worse than East Germany.

[The Yosemite Bear]

ok, so this is threadomancy not the dear leader comming back from the dead as a result of actual necromancy...

[Eulogy]

Man, North Korea is the clusterfuck that keeps on fucking. When it rots away, occupation by yet another foreign country might be merciful indeed.

It'd be like trying to rehabilitate Stepford Wives with PTSD, only there's a shitload of them.

[CJvR]

North Korea seems worse than East Germany.

The DDR was relatively mild on outright murderous persecution. During the worst times the border was still open reducing the amount of terrorizing that the regime could get away with. After the iron curtain and the Berlin wall went up the worst Stalinist murderousness had passed and even then the Berlin issue made proper isolation impossible and the more rabid economic insanity impossible. Besides it was much more profitable to sell dissidents to the BRD than torturing them to death in camps, even the DDR regime was into the blue tiles trade.

[Big Orange]

The Berlin Wall was allegedly an idea suggested by Mao Zedong, but aside from that the DDR seemed to be a comparatively sane "diet" Stalinist regime and even after the bombing and looting of industry in WWII, was moderately economically prosperous in the 50s/60s and small businesses were tolerated. And here's more about North Korea's pathological xenophobia and racial/cultural supremacy from B.R. Myers.

And Kim Jong-Il's eldest son, Kim Jong-nam, may publish a book and declares Kim Jong-un is a puppet ruler that may not last long:

North Korea's leader will not last long, says Kim Jong-un's brother
Kim Jong-nam, eldest son of Kim Jong-il, describes succession as 'a joke' and predicts the regime will collapse in new book.

The eldest son of North Korea's late leader Kim Jong-il has predicted the regime would soon fail, with or without reforms, according to a new book that the author says is based on emails and interviews with Kim Jong-nam.

The book says that Kim Jong-nam – who has never met the new leader, his half-brother Kim Jong-un – described the dynastic succession as "a joke to the outside world", and said even his father had originally opposed the hereditary transfer of power.

"The Kim Jong-un regime will not last long," Kim Jong-nam is said to have written, forecasting a power struggle. "Without reforms, North Korea will collapse, and when such changes take place, the regime will collapse."

He added: "I think we will see valuable time lost as the regime sits idle fretting over whether it should pursue reforms or stick to the present political structure."

The claims emerge in a book by Yoji Gomi, a journalist with Tokyo Shimbun, who said he exchanged emails with Kim Jong-nam over seven years. The date of the remarks on the regime is unclear.

Gomi, who lived for years in Seoul and Beijing, said he met Kim three times in total, once in 2004 and twice in 2011.

"He gave me a very good impression. He's very gentle and friendly," Gomi said.

"We exchanged emails over some time and when I suggested compiling our exchanges as a book, he agreed. At first he wanted publication to be delayed, but when I said we ought to go ahead because of everything that is happening in North Korea right now, he said that was OK. I don't feel that he has any ambition to become leader of North Korea, but he wants to contribute to improving the situation in the country. He travels a great deal, but his base is in Macau."

A publicist for the Bungei Shunju publishing company said the book would be published shortly.

Kim Jong-nam has previously offered relatively outspoken if brief remarks on the North to journalists who have tracked him down, but these reported messages go much further. Experts on North Korea cautioned that it was impossible to verify the details unless or until Kim Jong-nam confirmed he had written the emails.

In one message, Kim Jong-nam remarked: "I'm concerned how Jong-un, who merely resembles my grandfather [former North Korean leader Kim Il-sung], will be able to satisfy the needs of North Koreans.

"Kim Jong-un is still just a nominal figure and the members of the power elite will be the ones in actual power."

He said his father had not wanted to pass power to a third generation, but decided the bloodline was needed to maintain the regime's stability.

He also said his father felt lonely after sending him to study abroad, growing close to his siblings instead, and displeased his father by calling for reform and market-opening and "was eventually viewed with suspicion". His views meant that the overseas education of his brothers and sister was shortened.

He also claimed to have told Kim Jong-il how concerned the international community was about the nuclear tests and missile launches.

He noted the North's hardline stance was based on the political system's determination to survive. Of the deadly shelling of Yeonpyeong island in 2010, he added: "It was a provocation by North Korea's military to justify their status and existence and the possession of nuclear weapons."

Asked about the new leader, he reportedly replied: "I'm his half brother, but I've never met him so I don't know."

But he said he had seen their middle brother Jong-chol a few times and was also on good terms with their aunt and uncle. Kim Kyong-hui and Jang Song-taek have become increasingly prominent in North Korean media and appear to be guiding the new leader as he assumes power, although some suggest Jang could become a potential rival.

Kim Jong-nam, who is believed to divide his time between Beijing and Macau, said of his arrangements: "The Chinese government is protecting me, but it is also monitoring me too. It's my inevitable fate. If you can't avoid it, it's better to enjoy it."

Reports have previously suggested Kim fell from favour with his father when Japanese authorities caught him trying to enter the country with a forged passport from the Dominican Republic, hoping to visit Tokyo Disneyland.

Kim said it was common for the North's elite to travel with forged documents, claiming Kim Jong-un also went to Japan with a fake Brazilian passport.

The Guardian

[Ralin]

I'm calling bullshit. North Korea is one of the most stable countries in the world. Horrible, but stable. It's going to take a whole lot more than the Dear Leader dying to make it all come crumbling down.

[Mayabird]

Could just be jealousy that a younger half brother is getting the throne instead of him, since he had been groomed for the position and been considered the heir until the incident with the fake Dominican passport. But who can really tell with that country? I consider them Exhibit A in my evidence that we are the ones living in the bizarro alternate universe.

[Lusankya]

When I spoke to my North Korean classmate about it, he didn't seem too concerned about instability. When he and his friends tried to get permission to go back to attend the funeral, the embassy denied them, on the grounds that it was too close to exams, which I guess means that they either don't want destabilising foreign-influenced youngsters running around, or that the regime is still taking care not to let Kim Jong Il's death influence their investments for the future.

[DudeGuyMan]

You have North Korean classmates who tried to get home for Dear Leader's funeral?

...what are they like? How much of the North Korean internal mythology do they seem to believe?

[Todeswind]

I would also like to know this.

[Lusankya]

Well, they actually say "The Great Kim Jong-Il" when talking about Kim Jong-Il, even when talking to non-North Koreans. He told me that he missed class the day after he heard that Kim Jong-Il died, because he was so upset.

It's interesting talking to him, really. Obviously, he's well aware that other countries are more wealthy than North Korea, but at the same time, he feels that in matters of society, North Korea is superior. He has a very poor opinion of China's public welfare system, for example. When it comes to comparing his country with South Korea, his opinion is, "What they have, we lack, and what we have, they lack," - which basically means that while South Korea has wealth, it is North Korea that has managed to better hold on to all the cultural and moral traits that make them "Korean".

The thing is, though, from talking to the North Koreans I know, I don't really think that the North Korean ideology is necessarily anything to particularly fear (unless you're American, South Korean or Japanese, I guess). Most of the North Koreans I've met have a positive impression of most countries, even if they allied with the US in the Korean war. They don't trust America, though, and I've never seen them associating with the South Koreans, though that could be more pragmatism than anything else. My friend, for example, is a really huge fan of Germany. Obviously there's stuff like their eagerness to join the army, which comes across as kind of strange (North Korea's army is all-volunteer), and a pretty strong commitment to racial purity (which you get in SK and Japan as well, though to a lesser extent), which could definitely be seen as disturbing, but as long as you're actually just interested in talking to them and getting to know them, rather than spreading democracy to them or whatnot, they're pretty friendly people.

[LaCroix]

Obviously there's stuff like their eagerness to join the army, which comes across as kind of strange

To be honest, it's a logical conclusion. It's the only job that reliably saves you from starvation in NK.

[K. A. Pital]

Obviously there's stuff like their eagerness to join the army, which comes across as kind of strange

To be honest, it's a logical conclusion. It's the only job that reliably saves you from starvation in NK.

Not the only, but it is one of the better supplied. Being in the Army also increases mobility, since the Songun policy makes the government use the Army for civilian labour tasks here and there. And unlike the USA, you don't really get sent to war. The worst that can happen is being killed in one of the DPRK-ROK shootouts, and that's a small chance. I also heard that being in the Army gives one a lesser chance of being repressed. So all in all, a DPRK citizen would see the Army as a priority.

[Lusankya]

I don't mean that it's strange given the situation they're in. I just mean that the status of the military in their society is something that could be seen as strange and rather disturbing if you're used to viewing things through western norms.

Apparently being in the army makes it easier to get a girlfriend too.

[DudeGuyMan]

I kinda wanna ask them if they believe Kim Jong Il ever pooped or not. Because his bio says he didn't, but nobody could possibly believe that, right? Right? But I wouldn't want to seem rude so I probably wouldn't bother. But I wonder.

[folti78]

I don't mean that it's strange given the situation they're in. I just mean that the status of the military in their society is something that could be seen as strange and rather disturbing if you're used to viewing things through western norms.

Apparently being in the army makes it easier to get a girlfriend too.

Maybe it's mentioned in some other thread, but I wouldn't been surprised that army service (with good conduct) practically necessary to get some higher level jobs.

[Mayabird]

Well, they actually say "The Great Kim Jong-Il" when talking about Kim Jong-Il, even when talking to non-North Koreans. He told me that he missed class the day after he heard that Kim Jong-Il died, because he was so upset.

Religion is a hard, hard thing to shake off, even if your god-kings are terrible.

Yeah, that's all I've got now.

[The Yosemite Bear]

could you immagine what it was like for the folks who grew up under Alex...