Jeremy Clarkson is a Fascist Cunt

[Flagg]

Okay, so Flagg has been given context and content and is still on the JC is a FC riff. No conceding that the OT title is overblown, not even the possibility admitted that his reactions have been overblown. He didn't address the questions raised on the level of benefit England's public employees get, though others have stepped up admirably. It is clear to me, now, that Flagg simply has no sense of humor. That's sad. See me shed a tear.

Sorry, shooting innocent people in front of their families still isn't funny. If you find it funny please see a mental health professional. As far as public sector workers in England, that's been handled by others who actually have knowledge of the situation over there as opposed to me, who doesn't live there and hasn't been following the story. But you can keep attacking me all you want, as I do have a sense of humor and find you adorable.

[aerius]

The assumption of the public sector is that their benefits can always be funded simply by raising taxes. Public sector unions and civil service middle managers in particular see the private sector i.e. the majority of workers as something to be ruthlessly strip-mined for their benefit. In that sense they are pretty similar to the financial elite; obviously they get less individually but there are a lot more of them.

You can say that again, I'm one of those managers and the amount of whining I hear about benefits & entitlements from my co-workers is fucking unreal. I seem to be the only one who realizes that

a) the money has to come from somewhere
b) the shortfall can't be covered by tax receipts if they let the BS continue long enough

which leads to
c) we ain't getting what we're currently being promised on our pensions, and there's a real possibility we might get nothing or next to nothing. There's precedent for private & public pension being outright stolen to fund government operations.

A lot of my co-workers are going to be completely fucked in the future, not only are they counting on a 100% secure pension & benefits package, they're counting on one that's better than what they have right now.

BTW, did I mention that the head of my union draws a 7-figure salary and owns a multi-million dollar cottage?
Truly a man of the workers. I keep hoping for that cocksucker to fall off his dock and drown.

[Starglider]

I've just had 2 year of pay freeze (I'm on the lowest level of the pay scale which that started, about 22k per year, the pay scale below had a £250 pay rise in the last year).

For comparison, average salary of a chartered accountant is ~40K, which will go higher if you move into management or gain specialist sector knowledge. Being say a compliance offer in a bank pays 50K ish in retail, 70K+ in investment banking (although this last category jobs are almost all in London). Professional qualifications for that too tough? Leverage your HMRC knowledge by becoming a personal tax advisor and you'll be in the 30-40K range, again possibly a lot more with experience and specialist knowledge.

Given that, what is your motivation for staying in the public sector?

basically it'll mean as I work in the north east my pay will go up less than someone in the south east for example.

Cost of living is vastly higher in the south east. You pay vastly more for housing, a lot more for enterainment (eating out, pub, cinema etc) and significantly more for food. So a higher salary is necessary for the same standard of living, and unions are all about fairness right? More relevantly to employers unemployment is lower so salaries have to be higher to get competent staff.

which is now switched to career average

Thus eliminating the ridiculous rush to promote people as much as possible just before they retire, and the unfair disadvantage to people who move out of the public sector early or aren't so good at playing office politics and don't benefit from this.

Oh well.. at least we've all in this together... roll on the big society... etc etc

It is true that the same changes should have been applied to the MP pension scheme. IMHO not doing so was the biggest mistake of this adjustment.

[Starglider]

A lot of my co-workers are going to be completely fucked in the future, not only are they counting on a 100% secure pension & benefits package, they're counting on one that's better than what they have right now.

Often the same people who were convinced housing could only go up in 2007 and still believe that a fresh housing boom is just around the corner. The UK housing market is still stuffed with greedy sods advertising houses for three times what they paid in the late 90s (not selling of course). Presumably they think that Russian oligarchs will be buying them up as almost no UK first time buyers who can afford them now that the free credit fountain has run dry.

There's precedent for private & public pension being outright stolen to fund government operations.

Almost makes the gold coins in a sock pension plan look attractive doesn't it.

BTW, did I mention that the head of my union draws a 7-figure salary and owns a multi-million dollar cottage?

The constant, pathological lying and propaganda by the UK public unions is getting rather tiresome. There was one on the radio this morning repeating 'huge, massive, unlivable cuts to pensions' over and over again, but he would never give any figures and tried to shout down the interviewer when she tried to talk figures. Because of course the actual percentage cuts are thoroughly unimpressive, particularly to private sector workers (who are lucky to have a pension at all). I have yet to hear a single public sector figurehead explain (to the taxpayer audience) why they deserve a certain level of pay/benefits (other than the endless tedious 'hard working nurses and teachers', as if all of the public sector was that). Or why it would be in taxpayer's interest to pay more, no all we hear is what they are 'entitled' to. It is not going down well with the thoroughly unentitled private sector majority.

[Mr. Tickle]

Given that, what is your motivation for staying in the public sector?

Not much motivation, but as I mentioned, there's not much going on in the job scene in the north east of england. Beyond that I do actually find some enjoyment in the job I do which is in compliance work for National Minimum Wage, it's nice to know the work I do goes towards workers getting their dues.

Cost of living is vastly higher in the south east. You pay vastly more for housing, a lot more for enterainment (eating out, pub, cinema etc) and significantly more for food. So a higher salary is necessary for the same standard of living, and unions are all about fairness right? More relevantly to employers unemployment is lower so salaries have to be higher to get competent staff.

There's already a London weighting to public service jobs, it's not much, a few thousand off the top of my head, but your point is valid. However the purpose of this is not to offset the higher costs of living in certain areas, it is specifically to lower the overall wages levels for everyone in that region. I think the theory is that if labour costs are surpressed "up north" or wherever it'll encourage employers to hire more in those areas. I'm not an expert or anything but it seems to me if you start pushing down wages further you'll reduce spending and that'll actually cause further job losses.

Thus eliminating the ridiculous rush to promote people as much as possible just before they retire, and the unfair disadvantage to people who move out of the public sector early or aren't so good at playing office politics and don't benefit from this.

Erm, citation needed? Might be different in other departments but generally you find senior management tends to be late 40s or early 50s, and generally speaking, deserving of the jobs. Sorry but "lol" at the idea of the idea of "rushing to promote people" to secure them a better pension, jesus...

Agreed on the MP pensions though.

[Starglider]

Not much motivation, but as I mentioned, there's not much going on in the job scene in the north east of england.

Sadly true but in my experience (and I talk to them a lot) recruiters are still desperate for candiates with strong motivation to progress (so they come across as 'hungy' in interviews), existing jobs and relevant experience. They're absolutely flooded with applications from long-term unemployed that no one wants to hire.

Beyond that I do actually find some enjoyment in the job I do which is in compliance work for National Minimum Wage, it's nice to know the work I do goes towards workers getting their dues.

That's nice, but if you were a (fully qualified) tax advisor to wealthy solicitors in Leeds you could earn 50K, pay a lot more in tax so you'd still be supporting the public sector, and donate your time and/or money to charity at your discretion (I donnate a lot more to charity now than I used to). Plus some long-term-unemployed private-sector-unemployable person could have your old HMRC job.

I suppose I would say that as I spent many years living on scraps doing basic research, more years trying to do useful industrial things and barely getting by, and then when I actually put serious effort into specifically making money I realised I should have been doing that from the start.

I think the theory is that if labour costs are surpressed "up north" or wherever it'll encourage employers to hire more in those areas.

That is technically true although at these unemployment levels I think the main competition is benefits at the low end, rather than the public sector taking too many skilled staff. Right now the UK is actually benefiting in the same way as Germany (but to a much lesser extent) from the high relative costs and low productivity of the PIGGS countries, imprisoned in the euro as they are. If and when they finally regain competitiveness competition for jobs will be even higher.

I'm not an expert or anything but it seems to me if you start pushing down wages further you'll reduce spending and that'll actually cause further job losses.

Reducing spending power hits retailers and other localised service sector jobs. Those aren't the employers the government would be concerned about; they're toast anyway if all the region fails to attract relocatable businesses.

Sorry but "lol" at the idea of the idea of "rushing to promote people" to secure them a better pension, jesus...

I've heard that from a close friend who is a civil service middle manager and various public sector beurecrats I've met at dinner parties. No, I don't have a source suitable for public debate right now, but I'm not going to apologise for basing my opinion on the best informed people I've actually met.

[Mr. Tickle]

I've heard that from a close friend who is a civil service middle manager and various public sector beurecrats I've met at dinner parties. No, I don't have a source suitable for public debate right now, but I'm not going to apologise for basing my opinion on the best informed people I've actually met.

Fair enough, I am relatively new (6 years) here, so I thinks there's still a certain old school/new school split to it. What you've been told might of used or even could still be true, but with massive job cuts in the last few years, I think the department is much more tightly managed from the centre these days.

I'll not going to respond to your other points. Although I didnt agree with them all, there were perfectly valid points to make, but alas it's getting late. Also I suspect it'll just start being more anecdotes and opinions.

[Stark]

I'm glad 'people I totally met honest' is a reliable source.

The implied differences between the UK and Canada and AU here are interesting. Obviuosly AU has an entrenched, overpaid, promoted-to-level-of-ignorance public service, but at least they offer competitive superannuation contributions rather than pensions (generally) and both draw on and push people into the private sector.

[Thanas]

There are some jokes you do not make. Shooting strikers is one of them.

But hey, this is Clarkson, who said that BMW are Nazis, made jokes about the invasion of Poland (only several million people starved/were murdered, so joke away I guess), said that Malaysians were living in jungles and wearing leaves for shoes and demanded the right not to get "bummed" by gay people.

He is a POS.

[Losonti Tokash]

It's pretty funny that my girlfriend and I can work our asses off for incredibly meager pay and few benefits in lines of work that directly impact and improve the lives of the needy, but we'll never get the sort of recognition or pay of some asshole who helps rich people avoid paying taxes. All while a man mostly known for making an owl simulator says we aren't contributing to society.

[weemadando]

I'm glad 'people I totally met honest' is a reliable source.

The implied differences between the UK and Canada and AU here are interesting. Obviuosly AU has an entrenched, overpaid, promoted-to-level-of-ignorance public service, but at least they offer competitive superannuation contributions rather than pensions (generally) and both draw on and push people into the private sector.

There's not many of the 55 club left in the public service (the old pension style scheme where you could retire on 2/3rds of retiring pay at age 55).

The rest of us just have regular old super in government managed accounts which we have to trust they won't plunder one day when they're in the mood for spending and scoring media points about "fatcat public servants."

The fact that numerous people choose to change from the older pension style scheme to the new one says all you need to know about some matters.

[Stark]

Don't public servants have the option of choosing super providers?

[weemadando]

Yeah, I had been happy enough but we've just been shunted out to be managed by the NSW government company which had the huge IT security issues and is apparently being steered into the iceberg by way of minefield and asteroid impact financially speaking.

[Alkaloid]

Um, I may be missing something here, but if I take a job on the condition that I will get a wage and a certain level of pension after I retire, and after working there for several years, it's decided that my employer is unable to pay my pension and I either won't get it or will get a lower pension than I understood I was going to get, don't I have a right to be angry about that?

I may be missing something obvious because I've never worked the sort of job that would have a pension, but I don't see how this is much different to a company deciding it can't afford to pay what it has been paying me and taking back some of the wages I've been paid.

[aerius]

Um, I may be missing something here, but if I take a job on the condition that I will get a wage and a certain level of pension after I retire, and after working there for several years, it's decided that my employer is unable to pay my pension and I either won't get it or will get a lower pension than I understood I was going to get, don't I have a right to be angry about that?

Yes, and no. Every employer I know of will have the financial details of their pension plans available to its employees, and in the case of public sector employers the details are usually available to anyone with an internet connection. It's simple high school math to look at how much money is in the plan's funds, how much you're putting in, and how much you're getting when you retire then crunching the numbers to see if it's actually workable. You can also calculate what you'll actually get given your contribution rate and the historical rate of return on the fund's assets along with what you need to put in to get the promised benefits.

If the numbers say "I'm fucked, I ain't getting a pension", then I can't exactly get pissed when they tell me I ain't getting one. All I can really bitch about is the fact that my contributions are getting spent on the bastards who will retire before me. Working out the numbers for my pension was one of the first things I did when I got my current job, I needed to know if and how much extra money I would have to stuff away for my retirement and get started on the planning.

On the other hand if the math tells you the fund is fine and you don't get your benefits because the employer embezzled it or something then yeah, I can't really blame you if you go on a shooting spree in the executive boardroom.

[DudeGuyMan]

Watch any episode of Top Gear or his (still running? Since cancelled?) chat and he will call for the death of some group, typically Belgians.

To be fair, who doesn't want to see all Belgians killed? If they didn't have Van Damme I'm sure someone would have wiped them out ages ago.

[Lonestar]

There are some jokes you do not make. Shooting strikers is one of them.

But hey, this is Clarkson, who said that BMW were Nazis, made jokes about the invasion of Poland (only several million people starved/were murdered, so joke away I guess), said that Malaysians were living in jungles and wearing leaves for shoes and demanded the right not to get "bummed" by gay people.

He is a POS.

Berlin to Warsaw on one tank.

The new Volkswagen Sirocco.

[Starglider]

All while a man mostly known for making an owl simulator says we aren't contributing to society.

Is that seriously the most stinging criticism you could think of? That's great, it's nice to know that no that no one will be coming after me for writing software that skims millions from pension funds or doing research on self-improving AI. If they do I'll tell them that I make games as a hobby so there's no way I could be guilty of anything more serious.

[wautd]

Looks like a lot of fuzz for what obviously was a joke.

Watch any episode of Top Gear or his (still running? Since cancelled?) chat and he will call for the death of some group, typically Belgians.

To be fair, who doesn't want to see all Belgians killed? If they didn't have Van Damme I'm sure someone would have wiped them out ages ago.

Let's kill all the Belgians

(and before anyone gets on his high horse, I'm Belgian I thought it was hilarious).

[Col. Crackpot]

Looks like a lot of fuzz for what obviously was a joke.

Watch any episode of Top Gear or his (still running? Since cancelled?) chat and he will call for the death of some group, typically Belgians.

To be fair, who doesn't want to see all Belgians killed? If they didn't have Van Damme I'm sure someone would have wiped them out ages ago.

Let's kill all the Belgians

(and before anyone gets on his high horse, I'm Belgian I thought it was hilarious).

Exactly. Because you are a sane person who doesn't have a stick up his ass and can laugh at himself.

[His Divine Shadow]

There are some jokes you do not make. Shooting strikers is one of them.

But hey, this is Clarkson, who said that BMW were Nazis, made jokes about the invasion of Poland (only several million people starved/were murdered, so joke away I guess), said that Malaysians were living in jungles and wearing leaves for shoes and demanded the right not to get "bummed" by gay people.

He is a POS.

Berlin to Warsaw on one tank.

The new Volkswagen Sirocco.

And the GPS navigation that "only goes to Poland"

[Mr Bean]

And the GPS navigation that "only goes to Poland"

A joke he made even earlier
"Now I've noted this issue with previous BMW's but every time you start the SATNAV it defaults to Poland, which is fine for some people, specifically the Germans but it's a pain for people just wanting to find Coventry when the M1 is jammed up"

[Sephirius]

And the GPS navigation that "only goes to Poland"

A joke he made even earlier
"Now I've noted this issue with previous BMW's but every time you start the SATNAV it defaults to Poland, which is fine for some people, specifically the Germans but it's a pain for people just wanting to find Coventry when the M1 is jammed up"

I think part of the problem is that people have too thin skin these days, and are just looking for something to be outraged at. Clarkson realizes this, and I think he more or less feels that it is his duty to be something of a professional troll, and specifically says these things to make that point.

[Jawawithagun]

Clarkson is a satirist who built his career on taking the conservative stance on issues, turning it up to 11 and throwing it back in your face.
His jokes aren't meant to be funny, they are there to make you choke on your laugh.

[Elfdart]

I just find it funny that there's a show in the UK devoted to cars, when there's no car industry there. It's like having a car show from Detroit or something.

Old joke (from back when they tried to build cars in Britain): You know why they don't make computers in Britain?

Because they can't figure a way to build a keyboard that leaks oil.