Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

So your responce is "I'm right and I don't have to provide any evidence to prove it"?

For those curious the insurgency I mention is not the only fighting in Yemen. There was street fighting in the capital
http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=94000
as parts of the army joined protestors against government rule. The insurgency groups I mentioned controls the North West and there is an entirely seperate insurgency that controls the South
http://www.english.rfi.fr/node/102680

It got so bad that the government pulled out of most of the country to concentrate on the capital:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/30 ... g-20110530
For those curious about why most of the fighting is in the west:
Image

Of course this was mentioned earlier in this thread. Perhaps people will actually read threads they post in.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Crateria »

Samuel wrote:So your responce is "I'm right and I don't have to provide any evidence to prove it"?

For those curious the insurgency I mention is not the only fighting in Yemen. There was street fighting in the capital
http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=94000
as parts of the army joined protestors against government rule. The insurgency groups I mentioned controls the North West and there is an entirely seperate insurgency that controls the South
http://www.english.rfi.fr/node/102680

It got so bad that the government pulled out of most of the country to concentrate on the capital:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/30 ... g-20110530
For those curious about why most of the fighting is in the west:
Image

Of course this was mentioned earlier in this thread. Perhaps people will actually read threads they post in.
Sorry to sound like an idiot and go off topic, but what's the reason why the insurgency has picked up? Is it focused on the perception
of Yemen's govt being a Murrican puppet or is it the economy there? I heard the Arab Spring was caused by the declining opportunities of the average Arab person.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Vympel »

MarshalPurnell wrote: The participation of the United States as an auxiliary military force assisting the Yemeni government against the insurgents is not a question that arises under international law. The Yemeni government has requested American aid in the hostilities and that is that. There are no grounds under international law to challenge that in the face of the approval of the Yemeni government. And al-Awlaki's membership in AQAP is completely unquestionable, to the point that the UNSC has recognized and deemed him as such, thanks in large part to his own public statements- not that either are traditionally required to establish proof of belligerency. Thanas' argument that he was not taking a direct part in combat and was therefore immune to being engaged as a combatant assumes that al-Awlaki was not contributing directly to the military efforts of AQAP and that personnel of a belligerent force not exercising direct combat functions are the equivalent of civilians in being given immunity to direct enemy action. On the first part we have al-Awlaki's own statements that he was participating in war, and that the Yemeni government's operations against AQAP included an effort to capture him that was resisted successfully; and for the second there has never been an exemption for logistics personnel, or other kinds of support personnel, save those enumerated by the Geneva Conventions such as chaplains and medical corpsmen, whose immunity is lost when they participate in "offensive" actions.

If, as his own videos imply, al-Awlaki was responsible for recruiting "students" and encouraging them to follow in the footsteps of Nidal Hassan and Umar Abdulmattallab, and if Abdulmattallab's confession that al-Awlaki was present at an AQAP training camp is taken, there is certainly plenty of reason to believe he had some operational role in AQAP terrorist operations even if at the minor level of recruitment and ideological preparation. That would be more than sufficient to mark him as a direct contributor to the offensive operations of AQAP even without any other such electronic or human intelligence as may be possessed by the US or which was demonstrated in his trial in Yemen. And as the failure of the Yemeni commando operation to seize him demonstrated, a "snatch and grab" operation was not a simple affair, assuming the US even had any uncommitted special forces teams available and the resources in-country to support them. If such an operation included unsustainable risk or could not happen within the limited window of opportunity before al-Awlaki escaped, then killing him was perfectly acceptable under the criteria laid out by the Department of Justice memo.
Given your appealing to the Geneva Conventions (i.e. you have at least some familiarity with what they say)this reads as a highly selective attempt to justify conduct which you want to justify rather than an honest look at what the ICRC actually says about the entire issue.

Direct Participation in Hostilities
Persons participate directly in hostilities when they carry out acts, which aim to support one party to the conflict by directly causing harm to another party, either directly inflicting death, injury or destruction, or by directly harming the enemy's military operations or capacity. If and for as long as civilians carry out such acts, they are directly participating in hostilities and lose their protection against attack.

Examples of causing military harm to another party include capturing, wounding or killing military personnel; damaging military objects; or restricting or disturbing military deployment, logistics and communication, for example through sabotage, erecting road blocks or interrupting the power supply of radar stations. Interfering electronically with military computer networks (computer network attacks) and transmitting tactical targeting intelligence for a specific attack are also examples. The use of time-delayed weapons such as mines or booby-traps, remote-controlled weapon systems such as unmanned aircraft, also " directly " causes harm to the enemy and, therefore, amounts to direct participation in hostilities.

"Indirect " participation in hostilities contributes to the general war effort of a party, but does not directly cause harm and, therefore, does not lead to a loss of protection against direct attack. This would include, for example, the production and shipment of weapons, the construction of roads and other infrastructure, and financial, administrative and political support.

...

While members of organized armed groups belonging to a party to the conflict lose protection against direct attack for the duration of their membership (i.e., for as long as they assume a continuous combat function), civilians lose protection against direct attack for the duration of each specific act amounting to direct participation in hostilities. This includes any preparations and geographical deployments or withdrawals constituting an integral part of a specific hostile act.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

Sorry to sound like an idiot and go off topic, but what's the reason why the insurgency has picked up? Is it focused on the perception
of Yemen's govt being a Murrican puppet or is it the economy there? I heard the Arab Spring was caused by the declining opportunities of the average Arab person.
Yemen is currently ruled by a president who has been in power 33 years. The country is a shithole, with a GDP per capita of 1,130 (world bank) to 1,300 (CIA Factbook). It is the usual combo of corruption and poverty that the protestors are angered by.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

From the site that Vympel was kind enough to link:
According to the ICRC's Interpretive Guidance, all persons who are not members of State armed forces or of organized armed groups belonging to a party to an armed conflict are civilians a nd, therefore, are protected against direct attack unless and for such time as they directly participate in hostilities.
Alwaki was a member of Al-Queda and thus not a civilian.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Vympel »

Samuel wrote: Alwaki was a member of Al-Queda and thus not a civilian.
Assumng Awlaki's status as 'not a civilian' for the sake of argument, his 'legal eligibility' to be targeted depends on whether he assumed a “continuous combat function” in AQAP, which is they assume continuous function involving their direct participation in hostilities. There remains no evidence for such an assertion.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

Vympel wrote:
Samuel wrote: Alwaki was a member of Al-Queda and thus not a civilian.
Assumng Awlaki's status as 'not a civilian' for the sake of argument, his 'legal eligibility' to be targeted depends on whether he assumed a “continuous combat function” in AQAP, which is they assume continuous function involving their direct participation in hostilities. There remains no evidence for such an assertion.
For the sake of argument? It has already been shown in this thread that it is true he isn't a civilian. I believe it was in reference to the videos Alwaki posted on youtube where he said he was a member of Al-Queda. Did you even bother reading any of the thread?

As for the ccf I'm amused that you don't bother defining what the term actually means given you entire argument is based on it.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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Samuel wrote:So your responce is "I'm right and I don't have to provide any evidence to prove it"?
No, my response was, is and shall forever remain that the assertion of the existence of a civil war in Yemen does nothing to justify Awlaki's assassination. When I said he was killed from from a battlfield (which you strawmanned into saying "Yemen is not a battlefield"- don't think I didn't notice that particular bit of dishonesty) that statement was completely true and remains so.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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Samuel wrote: For the sake of argument? It has already been shown in this thread that it is true he isn't a civilian. I believe it was in reference to the videos Alwaki posted on youtube where he said he was a member of Al-Queda.
So what?
Did you even bother reading any of the thread?

As for the ccf I'm amused that you don't bother defining what the term actually means given you entire argument is based on it.
That's because you're a dumbfuck who can't read:-
“continuous combat function” in AQAP, which is they assume continuous function involving their direct participation in hostilities
Of course, that's also in the link provided that you supposedly read, so that goes double.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

Vympel wrote:
Samuel wrote:So your responce is "I'm right and I don't have to provide any evidence to prove it"?
No, my response was, is and shall forever remain that the assertion of the existence of a civil war in Yemen does nothing to justify Awlaki's assassination. When I said he was killed from from a battlfield (which you strawmanned into saying "Yemen is not a battlefield"- don't think I didn't notice that particular bit of dishonesty) that statement was completely true and remains so.
Yes it does. It is directly related to why the killing was carried out. If he had moved to France we couldn't have had a drone kill him. This was also mentioned earlier in the thread. In fact all your objections have been answered earlier in the thread. Would you care to go on?
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

So what?
So he isn't a civilian. This isn't "for the sake of argument".
“continuous combat function” in AQAP, which is they assume continuous function involving their direct participation in hostilities
That doesn't say anything. What is considered "continuous"? What is direct participation? It doesn't say!
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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Samuel wrote: Yes it does. It is directly related to why the killing was carried out. If he had moved to France we couldn't have had a drone kill him.
Translation:- "its the victim's fault he's dead!"

Learn to fucking read. Directly related != justify:-

"my response was, is and shall forever remain that the assertion of the existence of a civil war in Yemen does nothing to justify Awlaki's assassination."
This was also mentioned earlier in the thread.
So what? Does it get more true with repetition, you imbecile?
In fact all your objections have been answered earlier in the thread.
Given the utterly random way you just quote whatever you find convincing whether its related to what I or others said or not (like your laughably unresponsive post to Alyrium) I find that highly doubtful.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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Samuel wrote: So he isn't a civilian. This isn't "for the sake of argument".
Who says? You? Legal basis?
That doesn't say anything. What is considered "continuous"? What is direct participation? It doesn't say!
Yes it does, you illiterate moron. Learn to read. Its right there on the page. Its quoted here. Here, I'll do it again:-
Persons participate directly in hostilities when they carry out acts, which aim to support one party to the conflict by directly causing harm to another party, either directly inflicting death, injury or destruction, or by directly harming the enemy's military operations or capacity. If and for as long as civilians carry out such acts, they are directly participating in hostilities and lose their protection against attack.

Examples of causing military harm to another party include capturing, wounding or killing military personnel; damaging military objects; or restricting or disturbing military deployment, logistics and communication, for example through sabotage, erecting road blocks or interrupting the power supply of radar stations. Interfering electronically with military computer networks (computer network attacks) and transmitting tactical targeting intelligence for a specific attack are also examples. The use of time-delayed weapons such as mines or booby-traps, remote-controlled weapon systems such as unmanned aircraft, also " directly " causes harm to the enemy and, therefore, amounts to direct participation in hostilities.

"Indirect " participation in hostilities contributes to the general war effort of a party, but does not directly cause harm and, therefore, does not lead to a loss of protection against direct attack. This would include, for example, the production and shipment of weapons, the construction of roads and other infrastructure, and financial, administrative and political support.
What a useless fuckwit you are.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

"my response was, is and shall forever remain that the assertion of the existence of a civil war in Yemen does nothing to justify Awlaki's assassination."
It is directly related to the legal justification. Read the thread!
So what? Does it get more true with repetition, you imbecile?
How about you actually read people's posts and respond to what they have said?
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

Who says? You? Legal basis?
Samuel wrote:From the site that Vympel was kind enough to link:
According to the ICRC's Interpretive Guidance, all persons who are not members of State armed forces or of organized armed groups belonging to a party to an armed conflict are civilians a nd, therefore, are protected against direct attack unless and for such time as they directly participate in hostilities.
Alwaki was a member of Al-Queda and thus not a civilian.
Samuel wrote:
Vympel wrote:
Samuel wrote: Alwaki was a member of Al-Queda and thus not a civilian.
Assumng Awlaki's status as 'not a civilian' for the sake of argument, his 'legal eligibility' to be targeted depends on whether he assumed a “continuous combat function” in AQAP, which is they assume continuous function involving their direct participation in hostilities. There remains no evidence for such an assertion.
For the sake of argument? It has already been shown in this thread that it is true he isn't a civilian. I believe it was in reference to the videos Alwaki posted on youtube where he said he was a member of Al-Queda. Did you even bother reading any of the thread?

As for the ccf I'm amused that you don't bother defining what the term actually means given you entire argument is based on it.
Yes it does, you illiterate moron. Learn to read. Its right there on the page. Its quoted here. Here, I'll do it again:-
You sure that isn't refering to civilians only? The list does not include the category of leadership or command which seems like something important for military situations.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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While members of organized armed groups belonging to a party to the conflict lose protection against direct attack for the duration of their membership (i.e., for as long as they assume a continuous combat function), civilians lose protection against direct attack for the duration of each specific act amounting to direct participation in hostilities. This includes any preparations and geographical deployments or withdrawals constituting an integral part of a specific hostile act.
Bolded the actually relevant portion of what Vympel posted, since all of the above referred specifically to civilians. AQAP is an organized armed group party to a conflict, and al-Awlaki is an acknowledged member of AQAP. Even if the functions of a combatant are not directly hostile in nature, such as providing logistical support or recruitment and training, any members of an organized armed group are a legitimate target for as long as they remain members of said group. Membership in AQAP is equivalent to membership in the US Army, not to citizenship of a belligerent nation, and there is evidence that al-Awlaki participated in operational activities as a recruiter and trainer independent of the assertions of the Yemeni and American governments that he took a role in planning terrorist attacks.

And in any case none of this reflects on the legality of killing al-Awlaki because he was an American citizen. It is instead an attack on the use of drone strikes against Al Qaeda, period, since his interpretation of the article would require the assumption that every member of Al Qaeda is a civilian and would require some adjudication beforehand that they are combatants (by whom?) before direct attack could be legal.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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If Membership in Al-Quida is equivalent to membership in the US Army, then by what right does the USA refuse POW status to Guantanamo inmates? You can't have it both ways. You cannot claim that it makes them equivalent to an army member and then remove all legal protections from that.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Vympel »

Samuel wrote:
It is directly related to the legal justification. Read the thread!
No it isn't, and that doesn't get anymore true no matter how often you mindlessly repeat it. It is only "directly related" to the non-existent legal justification in that such assertion that it justifies same is false.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

Vympel wrote:
Samuel wrote:
It is directly related to the legal justification. Read the thread!
No it isn't, and that doesn't get anymore true no matter how often you mindlessly repeat it. It is only "directly related" to the non-existent legal justification in that such assertion that it justifies same is false.
You honestly don't understand why "it is an active warzone so we can't arrest him" is directly related to why it is legal to kill? Are you dense?
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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MarshalPurnell wrote: Bolded the actually relevant portion of what Vympel posted, since all of the above referred specifically to civilians.
Rubbish. The question of when a civilian becomes a member of an organized armed group is directly addressed on the linked page:-
It can be difficult to tell the difference between members of organized armed groups and the civilian population. Civilians support insurgencies in many different ways including, at times, by directly participating in hostilities in a spontaneous, sporadic or unorganized way. However, civilians cannot be regarded as members of an organized armed group unless they assume a " continuous combat function, " i.e. unless they assume continuous function involving their direct participation in hostilities. Members of organized armed groups do not have the same privileged status as combatants of State armed forces and, therefore, can be subject to domestic prosecution even for simply taking up arms.
These consdierations do not magically vanish into the ether because Awlaki "is an acknowledged member of AQAP." You have to establish continuous combat function.
And in any case none of this reflects on the legality of killing al-Awlaki because he was an American citizen.
Which is not what I was talking about.
It is instead an attack on the use of drone strikes against Al Qaeda, period, since his interpretation of the article would require the assumption that every member of Al Qaeda is a civilian and would require some adjudication beforehand that they are combatants (by whom?) before direct attack could be legal.
Indeed it would, unless they were engaging in hostilities at the actual time they were killed or are known to carry out a continuous combat function and thus lose their protection from direct attack. This is a problem, why?
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Vympel »

Samuel wrote: You honestly don't understand why "it is an active warzone so we can't arrest him" is directly related to why it is legal to kill? Are you dense?
No, but you clearly are. Cite the legal principles you appeal to to make this argument.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

Vympel wrote:
Samuel wrote: You honestly don't understand why "it is an active warzone so we can't arrest him" is directly related to why it is legal to kill? Are you dense?
No, but you clearly are. Cite the legal principles you appeal to to make this argument.
What legal right does the US have to kill enemy combatants in an active war zone? Is that what you are asking? :lol:
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

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Samuel wrote:
What legal right does the US have to kill enemy combatants in an active war zone? Is that what you are asking? :lol:
No it is not, you disengenuous little turd. Explain the legal principles by which you think "it is an active warzone so we can't arrest him" is directly related to why it is legal to kill? With references.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Samuel »

Vympel wrote:
Samuel wrote:
What legal right does the US have to kill enemy combatants in an active war zone? Is that what you are asking? :lol:
No it is not, you disengenuous little turd. Explain the legal principles by which you think "it is an active warzone so we can't arrest him" is directly related to why it is legal to kill? With references.
How is this disengenuous? You simply state it without explaining why. Again.
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Re: Radical American Cleric Anwar al-Awlaki Killed

Post by Vympel »

Samuel wrote:
How is this disengenuous? You simply state it without explaining why. Again.
Because its self-evident, you pathetic little retard. I asked you to provide legal principles for your comment. You then came back with an entirely different comment, or can you not tell the difference between asking for a legal principle for:-

""it is an active warzone so we can't arrest him" is directly related to why it is legal to kill?"

and

"What legal right does the US have to kill enemy combatants in an active war zone? Is that what you are asking"

And you are now on thin fucking ice. if this sort of blatant trollish bait and switch continues, I will bring in a third party moderator to examine your conduct.
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