Calls to boycott Bali

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Calls to boycott Bali

Post by mr friendly guy »

Saw this on sunrise while waiting in line at the bank.

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Support grows for boycott over arrest of 14-year-old
Dan Proudman
October 9, 2011

A FACEBOOK page calling for the the 14-year-old NSW boy being held in Indonesia over the alleged possession of cannabis in Bali to be freed had attracted more than 1000 members as of last night, with growing support for Australians to boycott Bali until the Indonesian government releases the boy.

''Boycott Bali, poor kid yes stupid I know young dumb but still should not be in with rapist he s only a kid,'' one woman wrote. Another wrote: ''Boycott bali corrupt people everywhere. Teach them a lesson and ruin there tourism.''

But although there was widespread support for the teen's release, there were many who were critical of his actions. ''Do the crime, do the time,'' one wrote.

Greg Combet, the federal member for Charlton, which takes in Morisset Park, where the boy lives, said yesterday that he backed efforts to bring him home.

''I think in these circumstances you can understand the terrible anxiety that his family must be experiencing, let alone the boy himself, and so I think it is incumbent upon the government to provide all support we can,'' Mr Combet said.

The NSW Police Commissioner, Andrew Scipione, said the boy's arrest should serve as a warning to all youngsters.

''If there's one message that comes out of this terrible incident, it's don't go overseas and commit crime, particularly drug crime. Because your life may change forever.''
more info on the case

Now when we last had these idiot people from developed nations getting caught with drugs in Asia and getting pretty hefty punishment, I just had a good laugh at their goddamn stupidity. However.. for this kid I think Indonesia would be better off just letting us take him off their hands and paying for his rehabiliation, for the following reasons.

1. Those who argue that using illicit substances is a victimless crime, will find that argument must surely only applies to the addict, and the dealer doesn't have such luxury. In those previous cases (eg Van Nguyen in Singapore, Schapelle Corby in Bali, the Bali nine in.. well Bali, and that British guy China terminated who magically developed a mental illness when he was caught with no prior medical record of such an affliction) they were carrying high amounts which makes it hard to argue they were an addict. In fact some of them blatantly weren't addicts and did it for the $$$$.

In this case, even if the idiotic kid was an adult I would have felt he could have gotten off lightly, as one would suspect him being an addict (see second article). I can't remember how much he got caught with, but it most probably isn't much.

1 a) his age would have also given him some form of mitigation. I do think since this appears on the surface to be a "victimless crime" type scenario, even as an adult I can't imagine a harsh punishment.

2. Since he is an Australian citizen, one can argue we do have responsibility to clean up our mess as it were. We can pay for his rehab, and take him off the hands of the Indonesian authorities. Given the arguments from 1), I don't think it would be a great loss of justice if he were to not be punished.

3. Boycotting Bali would be assinine and stupid. It punishes the Bali tourist industry who were not at fault in this kid's stupidity, and arguable lessens the chances for diplomats to negotiate with the Indonesians.

4. He should not be in an adult jail while awaiting the authorities to sort out his case, but apparently Indonesia doesn't have much in the way of such facilities. All the more reason that our diplomats be allowed to do their jobs without stupid morons publicly giving the Indonesians less "wiggle room" to negotiate in good faith. We should also do things like pay for the boy's lawers, maybe even offer to pay for the cost of keeping him in prison as some sort of face saving measure, and the Indonesians can put him on a black list or something so he never sets foot in that country again.

Thoughts from others?
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by Stark »

It's not uncommon for a group that use a crappy shithole for their cheapo holidays to react with stunned amazement when confronted by the idea that it isn't their personal slave pen. Third world shithole? Oppressive laws? Great, lots of cheap holidays. Wait, A WHITE PERSON BUSTED FOR CRIMES!??!?!?!?!?!!?

Every single person who goes to Indonesia and gets busted for drugs is so amazingly stupid that they deserve everything they get. I mean, it's been a fucking decade of morons being locked up for this exact shit - with a media circus every time. Maybe you should go on holidays to places with human rights records next time!

The best part for me is that when this ISN'T going on, people say the harsh laws against drugs in these countries are a good idea. Crush those filthy drug addicts! Unless they're white.

Hilariously, every time the Malaysian and Thai authorities work with Australian law enforcement to take down all the child sex offenders, nobody complains. Not newsworthy, you see.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by The Kernel »

Thoughts? How about stop the hypocrisy--either you agree that these countries have the right to prosecute drug crimes their own way or not. Whether or not the kid had intent to sell is completely irrelevant as it's no less of a victimless crime to have a bag of weed to smoke than it is to have a bag of weed to sell.

So here's my thought: come up with a consistent viewpoint on the issue. You yourself admitted having little sympathy for other cases and I fail to see anything special about this kid aside from the fact that he's 14.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by Alkaloid »

I have very little sympathy for this kid really. Yes, I think the laws are stupid, and no, I don't think he should be in an adult jail. But this kid, and his family, knew this was what could happen if you have drugs on you in Bali. If it was 15 years ago, before the whole Schappelle Corby/Bali 9 thing, I might have some, but there is no way they can say this was a surprise, or they didn't know it was illegal. And now the fucking ambassador to Indonesia is involved. Shouldn't he have more important shit to do?
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by mr friendly guy »

The Kernel wrote:Thoughts? How about stop the hypocrisy--either you agree that these countries have the right to prosecute drug crimes their own way or not.
How about you learn to fucking read. From the second article I linked to which I made reference to.
His legal team are hoping he may be released under article 128 of Indonesia's drug laws, which allows for those caught with small amounts of drugs to be released if they can prove they are an addict, generally defined as a frequent user of drugs.
So if the claim that he is an addict turns out to be true, what I think should happen is the same as what the law says should happen.

In other words, this "either you agree that these countries have the right to prosecure drug crimes their own way or not" is a red herring.
Whether or not the kid had intent to sell is completely irrelevant as it's no less of a victimless crime to have a bag of weed to smoke than it is to have a bag of weed to sell.
The difference between an addict and a dealer is the same difference why someone harming themselves is viewed differently from someone harming others. I can't believe I need to explain this.

Now obviously the harm wrought is highly dependent on the drug being used / smuggled in, thus some hypothetical smuggler of cannabis is less likely to cause harm than say Van Nguyen's smuggling of heroin into Singapore. However I was speaking generally in regards to smuggling illicit substances into Asia, without mentioning specific drugs. Since some of those cases I listed earlier involved different drugs to what this kid had, it seemed clear to me that I was speaking about drug smuggling in general, rather than about specific drugs.

So here's my thought: come up with a consistent viewpoint on the issue.
So here's my thought : learn the difference ethically between someone self harming, and harming others. An addict who just uses a drug himself suffers the consequences himself. A dealer (even if they are also an addict) also inflicts harm to the other person. Whether the other person wanted it is irrelevant.
You yourself admitted having little sympathy for other cases and I fail to see anything special about this kid aside from the fact that he's 14.
Learn to goddamn read. When I make a reference to a second article which I also linked to, chances are.... drum roll here.... I am referring to something from that article. Wow, imagine that.

The fact you fail to comprehend the difference between an addict who keeps his harm to himself, and a dealer who spreads the harm to others is not my problem.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by Stofsk »

...Yeah, anyway, Stark summed it up best. Frankly if we weren't a bunch of stuck-up assholes who both simultaneously want the cheapest holiday destination while at the same time carrying ourselves around the region with a huuuuuuge sense of entitlement, none of this would be an issue. The only thing that really gives me pause is that the kid is fucking 14 years old, which unless you're talking about some kid who murdered someone, is too young to be in prison. I mean what's the bet that nobody told this kid 'hey don't buy any fucking drugs over in Bali ffs'?

When exactly are Australians going to learn not to fuck around with this shit overseas? A 14 year old is too young and too stupid to know any better, so where are the fucking adults in his life to tell him what's what in the real world? Other than that, talk of a boycott just sounds like typical bogan backlash for something that is 100% predictable if you mess around with drugs in SE Asia. (or pretty much anywhere that isn't Here)
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by K. A. Pital »

What Stark said. People who behave like that should be punished simply for the way they behave. A good way to make offenders forget the White Mister complex is to put them into prison.

I remember the story about a young guy who offered the taxi driver in South Korea drugs and then got promptly driven to the police station, where he got a full taste of SK police niceties. What an utter fucktard! He ran like a crybaby to the consulate, attempting to salvage his fucked-up case (which was going for like 8 years of prison).

In the end, the fucker was rescued by the diplomats. He shouldn't have been. Fuck the idiots. Just fuck them.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by Archaic` »

The sad thing about these kinds of cases is that many people seem to get a very warped idea of the case due to the slant of the media coverage generally being sympathetic to the criminal. I've run into surprising numbers of people who still believe that Schappelle Corby was innocent.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by Chris OFarrell »

But but...Corby is modestly hot! She can't be guilty, its the EVVIILLLL Indonesians, Woman's Day says so!*


In all seriousness, this kind of stuff is a large reason why I would never be caught dead taking cheap holidays to SEA, not without a large group of level headed people who don't use drugs and are not stupid morons, in a professional tour group. I'd be much happier to go to Europe, the US, Japan, China...

I mean I don't use drugs, but Bali holds zero interest for me. And I just shake my head at the constant stream of bogans heading up there ready and happy to go get drugged out of their minds...and be shocked when the Indonesians do exactly what they say they will always do, and throw the book at them.


*I do NOT read woman's day!
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by tim31 »

A few of my staff go to Bali as a yearly thing. Each time I tell them that we've invested too much resource making them into useful employees and if they get caught fucking around with drugs when there's so much cheap and legal alcohol, I will personally petition the Federal Government not to intervene on their behalf.

Because seriously, why are people so stupid

In the case of this kid he's an idiot, but more galling is whoever got him over there and into this mess in the first place; he's fucking fourteen.

EDIT: just did a bit more reading, over there with his parents, who have given their son more leash in a foreign country than I will give my children at that age. They come from an affluent suburb of Newcastle so yeah, mining.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

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Chris OFarrell wrote:But but...Corby is modestly hot! She can't be guilty, its the EVVIILLLL Indonesians, Woman's Day says so!*


In all seriousness, this kind of stuff is a large reason why I would never be caught dead taking cheap holidays to SEA, not without a large group of level headed people who don't use drugs and are not stupid morons, in a professional tour group. I'd be much happier to go to Europe, the US, Japan, China...

I mean I don't use drugs, but Bali holds zero interest for me. And I just shake my head at the constant stream of bogans heading up there ready and happy to go get drugged out of their minds...and be shocked when the Indonesians do exactly what they say they will always do, and throw the book at them.


*I do NOT read woman's day!
Dude, China also executes people for drug smuggling. Given that we don't hear much about it regarding our own citizens, I would say this is mainly a function of it being more expensive for bogans to travel to China, vs travelling just round our neighbourhood.

Just for the record, Bali doesn't hold that much interest for me, aside from the promises of cheap massages at resorts. Otherwise I can get that in China, plus in the latter I can see lots of scenic sights and places of historical and cultural interest for me. But to each his own, I say. Just don't be stupid enough to bring use illicit substances there when they warn us for ages that carrying drugs there will lead to the law coming down hard on you.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

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If you go to Bali you are under Bali law. If you break Bali law you will be subjected to the Bali legal system. It doesn't matter if you consider the crime to be victimless or not, and being a foreigner doesn't give you a get out of jail free card. If you don't agree with Bali law, don't go to Bali. If you do go to Bali, obey the law even when you think it's stupid.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

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Broomstick wrote:If you go to Bali you are under Bali law. If you break Bali law you will be subjected to the Bali legal system. It doesn't matter if you consider the crime to be victimless or not, and being a foreigner doesn't give you a get out of jail free card. If you don't agree with Bali law, don't go to Bali. If you do go to Bali, obey the law even when you think it's stupid.
I was speaking mainly from an ethical rather than a legal point as to why my contempt for him is less than those other drug smugglers which make Australian news (ie the addict vs smuggler rationale). I also explained what I think is a fair sentence / punishment, and also pointed out via a second linked article that the Indonesian law seems to agree with me in the sense that an addict is treated less harshly than a smuggler. In fact according to his lawyer it seems the law would allow him to be released, which is relatively light.

So whether I think he should get an exception to the law (I don't BTW) is rather moot since it appears the law in this case agrees with my main point.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Honestly, I think rather, many Westerners look down on Asian countries, and when one of their own gets caught red handed doing something like drugs, it's like "Oh the horror! The Brigands have breached the walls! Fight!"

A mix of racism and condescending behaviour really.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

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Indonesia is a sovereign country so Australians complaining about this can take a hike unless this violates human rights or will be a rigged trial. I see no evidence of the latter and regarding the former, I find it doubtful that this amasses to a violation of his human rights. 14-year olds are considered mature enough to stand trial according to the criminal law of most nations I know of and I have no doubt the consulate will pay for a good lawyer for him.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

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mr friendly guy wrote:I was speaking mainly from an ethical rather than a legal point as to why my contempt for him is less than those other drug smugglers which make Australian news (ie the addict vs smuggler rationale). I also explained what I think is a fair sentence / punishment, and also pointed out via a second linked article that the Indonesian law seems to agree with me in the sense that an addict is treated less harshly than a smuggler. In fact according to his lawyer it seems the law would allow him to be released, which is relatively light.
Except I don't see any evidence he is an addict. Perhaps there is some we are not aware of, but most 14 years who toke aren't addicts, they're users. If he's an addict I feel sorry for him, but if he's a casual user who thought it would be no big deal to get high on vacation, well, sucks to be him. A user can abstain without difficulty, and should under such circumstances.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by mr friendly guy »

Broomstick wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:I was speaking mainly from an ethical rather than a legal point as to why my contempt for him is less than those other drug smugglers which make Australian news (ie the addict vs smuggler rationale). I also explained what I think is a fair sentence / punishment, and also pointed out via a second linked article that the Indonesian law seems to agree with me in the sense that an addict is treated less harshly than a smuggler. In fact according to his lawyer it seems the law would allow him to be released, which is relatively light.
Except I don't see any evidence he is an addict. Perhaps there is some we are not aware of, but most 14 years who toke aren't addicts, they're users. If he's an addict I feel sorry for him, but if he's a casual user who thought it would be no big deal to get high on vacation, well, sucks to be him. A user can abstain without difficulty, and should under such circumstances.
The claim stems from the second article I linked in. Obviously my statements about the kid is contingent on that addict claim being proved. However I will add that if he turns out to be a user but not addicted, then the same ethical principle applies even if he is just a user. A user who keeps the shit to himself is less wrong than a dealer who sells it to others. From the information provided, it may be that Indonesian law will recognise a difference between a user and an addict (his lawyer really didn't make the distinction), and maybe the user gets harsher treatment than the addict.

My sympathy meter for him is low, however I feel given his threat level as it were, is much lower than those other examples I gave of Westerners being caught with illicit substances in Asia, he deserves a) lighter sentence b) less contempt (ie he still gets mockery for being an idiot, but less anger in terms of harm being wrought).
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by Broomstick »

I may strongly disagree with punishments meted out by a particular justice system (my own or a foreign one) but I have to defend the right of sovereign nation to have their own justice system. In Bali a person is under Bali law.

You can argue that his age should be a mitigating circumstance, and on an ethical level I agree with you completely on that. A 14 year old is incapable of acting as responsibly as a full adult (though in some areas some 14 year olds may approach that level) and thus, morally, can not be held to the same accountability. Unfortunately, legal systems are frequently not at all lenient.

I think it would be correct in a moral sense for his home government to help him with legal assistance, but who is he that he should have international negotiations for an exception to Bali law made on his behalf? And if simply being a person is reason enough, then you must, from a moral perspective, do that for all Australians held in Bali for breaking Bali law. Is Australia prepared to do that?

Contrast this to the situation of Amanda Knox, who was tried and convicted in Italy for murder and, had that conviction not been overturned, would likely have remained in an Italian jail for life. So far as I know, the US did no special pleading for her to be treated any differently than any other defendant in Italian court. In Italy one is under Italian law. In Bali one is under Bali law. Unless you want a world where one nation can run roughshod over another (and history has shown us such times) that is how it must be.

I sincerely hope this boy gets good legal representation and is acquitted or receives the least possible punishment, but from an ethical perspective I can't argue for him being treated differently than a Balinese 14 year old in the same position.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by Stark »

The lamest part is that when you get off the plane, there are giant red signs that say

DO NOT BUY OR USE DRUGS

THESE CRIMES CARRY THE DEATH PENALTY IN OUR COUNTRY

WE'RE LOOKING AT YOU, AUSTRALIA

So even if you'd missed the last ten years of media circus, there is absolutely no defence. What's disgusting is Today Tonight running a story about how it's all dirty indos setting up our pure wife beating young people who are totally not there for cheap piss at all.

Even though one of their examples was a guy imprisoned because his extended family started a giant brawl after a wedding.

DAMN INDOS!!!! The way that people have big-orange style terror of drug addicts, youth knife. Culture erc in Au is irrelevant. Once they go to another country, they become innocent. People love the idea of harsh enforcement on drug crimes - unless it's those FUCKING SLANTIES doing it.

I saw drink 17 year olds claim the cops routinely tried to set them up by planting drugs. JUST LIKE CORBY ROFFLE

I don't agree with harsh sentences, brutal police states or the death penalty. My solutions 'don't go to Bali to get drink on the cheap and break their laws'. It's a daily struggle.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by PainRack »

Broomstick wrote:I may strongly disagree with punishments meted out by a particular justice system (my own or a foreign one) but I have to defend the right of sovereign nation to have their own justice system. In Bali a person is under Bali law.

You can argue that his age should be a mitigating circumstance, and on an ethical level I agree with you completely on that. A 14 year old is incapable of acting as responsibly as a full adult (though in some areas some 14 year olds may approach that level) and thus, morally, can not be held to the same accountability. Unfortunately, legal systems are frequently not at all lenient.

I think it would be correct in a moral sense for his home government to help him with legal assistance, but who is he that he should have international negotiations for an exception to Bali law made on his behalf? And if simply being a person is reason enough, then you must, from a moral perspective, do that for all Australians held in Bali for breaking Bali law. Is Australia prepared to do that?
Mr Friendly Guy has repeatedly referred to the second article regarding Indonesian law, addiction and defence.

If the person was an addict, or even a user, his "crime" is of a lesser severity in Indonesian law. Furthermore, one of the reasons why he isn't in an juvenile prison is because Indonesia lacks the facillities, and hence the will to cater to such a category of prisoners.

Requesting that the Australian prisons take over the case isn't that unusual.
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Indonesia may not be a signatory to the treaty involved, but that's what diplomacy is for, isn't it?
That's the only "exception" to bali law Mr Friendly Guy is arguing for in point #2. He isn't saying that he should be let scott free, indeed, his punishment should be as per Bali law, especially if the defence vis a vis addiction proves successful.
However, is there a special need to remand him in Indonesian custody, especially given his age and the nature of the crime?

There also exists an accord of international treaties where countries do transfer prisoners so as to facillate the rehabiliation and ease the misery of international detention. Indonesia is not privy to such a treaty with Australia, but does this mean a special exception, made through the ventures of diplomacy could not be attempted? Does this inherently violate soverign law?
The punishment would "still" be the same. Just that the boy is detained in a different facillity, in Australia as opposed to Indonesia and in a juvenile facillity as opposed to an adult prison.
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by Broomstick »

If there is a precedent and an international means to do that by all means. Certainly, a country can always ask for extradition or an arrangement such as you suggest, if the country holding the accused declines that is also their choice.
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Stark
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by Stark »

Regardless of the legal principles behind it, if the kid is moved to Australia every bogan-ass racist fuckwit will crow about TAKE THAT SLANTIES and people will go to Bali with an even LARGER sense of entitlement and immunity, thus contributing to the drug problem the laws are trying to deal with.
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mr friendly guy
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Re: Calls to boycott Bali

Post by mr friendly guy »

Stark is right about that. Which as I said in my OP will just limit Indonesia's ability to negotiate as not to appear to give in to the demands from certain segments of Australia's population who are already crying out for boycott. As I said, this kid's actions appears to be relatively minor vs some of the other high profile drug cases I listed and which have been discussed on this board over the years, and it would be ironic if these protests make his situation worse. At least the Corby family was smart enough to buttress their protests with "Indonesia is a nice place" when confronted by media in that country.

The reason why I am even discussing him getting a light sentence is because a) his crime appears minor vs other high profile cases b) Indonesian law appears to allow such people a lesser sentence. If Bogans go to Indonesia with an increase sense of entitlement and carry much higher portions of illicit substances, say like the Bali 9, then they will be in for a rude awakening. :D
Broomstick wrote:If there is a precedent and an international means to do that by all means. Certainly, a country can always ask for extradition or an arrangement such as you suggest, if the country holding the accused declines that is also their choice.
Oh I agree. Its just that I think this guy is a small fry as it were hence Indonesia may be more amenable to letting him go to to Australia. If his sentence under your law is so slight that he doesn't need jailing (or at least short periods only), and he isn't much of a threat then let someone else pay for it.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.

Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
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