Family of 5 slaughtered in settlement

[Aaron]

So is ranting about the Right, how America sux cause of bible thumpers, that the world will disintegrate due to peak [Z], and arguing about cops or the death penalty.
Doesn't stop people arguing about it, or jumping towards it even when it's tangential.

Tis usually why I avoid this particular part of the board.

[Lonestar]

Right. And you expect people to care about that? Israel still gets protected and they still get billions in aid for things that go boom. 3.3 billion dollars over 17 years, fair enough but that does nothing to address the imbalance. I can't think of a good analogy but giving some money to people you assist in oppressing doesn't seem like a good way to make friends to me.

Edit: IvP has always been a hot button here dude, pissing and moaning is par for the course.

There was a Palestinian Family down the street from my Parents house(in Northern Virginia) who were literally setting off firecrackers in celebration on the morning of 9/11. My sympathy meter for the Palestinians as a group is extremely low. Shep also pointed out when the Palestinians have attacked US Citizens who were there to literally help uplift some Palestinians.

By the By, this does NOT mean I support the idea of giving free cash to Israel year in and year out. Israel is not our friend. Israel is not even our ally. At best they are the "least worst option" in the area, but even then Turkey probably has them beat(Turkey at least being our ally).

[Aaron]

As far as I'm concerned there is a difference between people who live in the country celebrating (thats kinda fucked) and a group of largely uneducated, poor people celebrating.

And yeah, I saw that bit about the convoy attack. I deliberately didn't address that because it is pretty fucking stupid.

[MKSheppard]

Oh it has nothing to do with what nation they're born in, you moronic piece of shit, but what kind of people they continue to vote for and the initiatives they know those politicians advocate.

Here Schatts shows his complete ignorance of Israeli politics.

I can however offer you a pretty crude thumbnail of Israeli Politics from 1992-2011:

Labor was coming off a pretty strong showing in the 1992 elections with 44 seats plus other allied parties; and they used that to basically force through Land For Peace/Oslo -- the entire thing passed very narrowly by only a few votes in the Knesset.

You can then chart Labor's fortunes in the Knesset against the Suicide bombings of the 90s and the Second Intifada of the 2000s.

Matters weren't helped by Labor deciding to make the '96 elections a referendum on the Peace Process -- they effectively nailed their standard to that mast, setting up their downfall in the 2003 elections.

Even Ariel Sharon creating his own "third way" party called Kadima and splitting the center-right vote from 2006 onwards wasn't enough to save Labor from the irrevelancy it faces today, along with a lot of the dovish left.

To help you understand it more in context -- during 1993-1999; there were 18 suicide attacks; which caused a lot of political problems for Rabin, Peres and Barak.

This was easily eclipsed by 2001-2004, where there were 88 suicide attacks. With that in mind, it's no wonder that the Israeli public decided from 2003 onwards that the security route was much more preferable than the peace route.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Here Schatts shows his complete ignorance of Israeli politics.

Here Shep shows he's a moronic fuck with no reading comprehension.

-snip-

And all of that has fuck all relevancy to my criticism of Israel and Israeli citizens, but then I never expect you to listen. I honestly could not give a flying fuck what years the 'left' in Israel were in power, they did and have not ever made any serious moves to force those squatters to leave the land that they stole.

[MKSheppard]

Here Shep shows he's a moronic fuck with no reading comprehension.

Let's go back to the videotape:

Oh it has nothing to do with what nation they're born in, you moronic piece of shit, but what kind of people they continue to vote for and the initiatives they know those politicians advocate.

Why are the Israelis voting in center-right parties the last ten years? Could it have something to do with the fact that the center-left parties literally staked their credibility on the peace process, discrediting themselves when the peace process imploded into an orgy of violence?

Nah. It's because the Israelis are cartoonish villians who twirl their moustaches.

I honestly could not give a flying fuck what years the 'left' in Israel were in power, they did and have not ever made any serious moves to force those squatters to leave the land that they stole.

During the 1990s, quite a bit of land was transferred to full Palestinian control; and this process continued, even when the Israeli right was briefly in power during that period (Netanyahu) with the Hebron Protocol.

What stalled the turnover of authority at it's present level was the perception on the Israeli side that the Palestinians were not following through on their part of the transfer agreements.

The agreements were essentially that Israel would turn over parts of the West Bank to full Palestinian civil and political control and in exchange, the Palestinians would rein in the militant groups.

A quid pro pro, upon which the next round of quid pro pros would rest upon.

What destroyed that was Fatah's military wing -- the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades.

It's kind of hard to work up enthuasism for more phased turn-overs when the Palestinian Authority's SA mann are attacking your civilians with suicide bombings and other attacks.

What's truly ironic is that it was the Israeli right that did the first large scale expulsion of settlers since the 1970s in 2005; when Sharon had all of the settlements in the Gaza strip removed, along with four in the West Bank unilaterally.

By the way, the Israelis do crack down on settlers, contrary to what you might believe.

Xinhua; the official press agency of the People's Republic of China, truly a reliable source - 1 MARCH 2011

On Monday, Israeli police evicted settlers from an outpost built without government permission on privately-owned Palestinian land. Such evacuations are not uncommon, but during the event on Monday security forces used a significant amount of forces and crowd control measures, leading observers to believe that Israel will now crack down hard on illegal outposts.

By the way, politics is the art of what is feasible. Destroying a city of 55,000 (Gush Etzion) is not feasible.

[Sarevok]

Both sides suck.

Palestinians for lashing out like animals.

Israelis for putting their people in harms away.

I'll be most grateful if you'll show me a place where an Israeli can be out of the terrorists' reach.

Not being in a settlement in Palestinian territory ?

[MKSheppard]

Not being in a settlement in Palestinian territory ?

You mean the city of Sderot -- 20,000+ strong, and within Israel's pre-1967 borders?

You mean the same place that over a period of eight months had 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs fall on it from the Gaza strip?

What's that? It's about 1-2 kilometers from the 1967 borders? OK.

How about Ofakim, roughly 20 klicks from the 1967 boarders. They got rocketed quite a bit before Cast Lead; though not on the same level as Sderot, due to distance protecting them via dispersal of poorly made rockets.

You mean like Tel Aviv? I'm sure the people on the Dizengoff Street bus were comforted by the fact they weren't settlers as Muatab Mukadi blew it up in 1994.

[MKSheppard]

Both sides suck.

Palestinians for lashing out like animals.

Israelis for putting their people in harms away.

How about China for putting their people in harms way in Tel Aviv?

Link

Li Bin
33 year-old resident of Tel Aviv-Yafo, injured on 17.07.2002 in Tel Aviv-Yafo, by explosion, and died on 24.07.2002. Additional information: A Chinese citizen. Killed in a suicide bombing at the Neve Sha'anan pedestrian mall.

Xu Hengyong
39 year-old, killed on 17.07.2002 in Tel Aviv-Yafo, by explosion. Additional information: A Chinese citizen. Killed in a suicide bombing at the Neve Sha'anan pedestrian mall.

Li Peizhong
41 year-old, killed on 05.01.2003 in Tel Aviv, by explosion. Additional information: A Chinese citizen. Killed in a suicide bombing.

Guo Iya Aiping
37 year-old, killed on 05.01.2003 in Tel Aviv, by explosion. Additional information: A Chinese citizen. Killed in a suicide bombing.

Zhang Minmin
53 year-old resident of Tel Aviv, killed on 13.01.2003 in Tel Aviv, by explosion. Additional information: A Chinese citizen. Killed in a suicide bombing.

[Omeganian]

Not being in a settlement in Palestinian territory ?

You mean the city of Sderot -- 20,000+ strong, and within Israel's pre-1967 borders?

You mean the same place that over a period of eight months had 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs fall on it from the Gaza strip?

What's that? It's about 1-2 kilometers from the 1967 borders? OK.

How about Ofakim, roughly 20 klicks from the 1967 boarders. They got rocketed quite a bit before Cast Lead; though not on the same level as Sderot, due to distance protecting them via dispersal of poorly made rockets.

You mean like Tel Aviv? I'm sure the people on the Dizengoff Street bus were comforted by the fact they weren't settlers as Muatab Mukadi blew it up in 1994.

Well, I live in Ashdod. Closer to the border than TA, but not by that much. Had a woman killed by a rocket not quite a block away from my house two years ago.

A man who wants to get away from terrorists should first practice walking away from the horizon.

[The Romulan Republic]

There was a Palestinian Family down the street from my Parents house(in Northern Virginia) who were literally setting off firecrackers in celebration on the morning of 9/11. My sympathy meter for the Palestinians as a group is extremely low. Shep also pointed out when the Palestinians have attacked US Citizens who were there to literally help uplift some Palestinians.

By that, do you mean to suggest that Palestinians as a whole should be condemned for the actions of some individuals? And if so, isn't that just bigotry?

[Omeganian]

There was a Palestinian Family down the street from my Parents house(in Northern Virginia) who were literally setting off firecrackers in celebration on the morning of 9/11. My sympathy meter for the Palestinians as a group is extremely low. Shep also pointed out when the Palestinians have attacked US Citizens who were there to literally help uplift some Palestinians.

By that, do you mean to suggest that Palestinians as a whole should be condemned for the actions of some individuals?

Of course not. Only the 90% that give a bad name to everyone else.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Nah. It's because the Israelis are cartoonish villians who twirl their moustaches.

Indeed they are.

What destroyed that was Fatah's military wing -- the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades.

Bullshit, you pile of dishonest shit, the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades were not founded until 2000, the Israelis signed the agreement in bad faith as evidence by their failure to withdraw their forces from all of the West Bank by July 1st '94 and never did.

It's kind of hard to work up enthuasism for more phased turn-overs when the Palestinian Authority's SA mann are attacking your civilians with suicide bombings and other attacks.

It's kinda hard to work up trust when Israel never acted in good faith.

By the way, the Israelis do crack down on settlers, contrary to what you might believe.

Ohohohoh! They crack down on the settlements they don't recognize, so surely that excuses the thousands of other illegal settlers they do recognize, have recognize, and intend on increasing the number of.

[Davis 51]

There was a Palestinian Family down the street from my Parents house(in Northern Virginia) who were literally setting off firecrackers in celebration on the morning of 9/11. My sympathy meter for the Palestinians as a group is extremely low. Shep also pointed out when the Palestinians have attacked US Citizens who were there to literally help uplift some Palestinians.

By that, do you mean to suggest that Palestinians as a whole should be condemned for the actions of some individuals?

Of course not. Only the 90% that give a bad name to everyone else.

My mother is of Palestinian descent. (Coincidentally, my parents also live in Northern Virginia.) My father was on his way to DC right before the Pentagon was hit, and actually saw the smoke from a distance. All of us think it was a disgusting act of terrorism, including most of my mothers family overseas. So you show me a statistic right fucking now that says 90% of Palestinians or Palestinian Americans (either will do) think 9/11 was a good thing.

If what Lonestar says is true then that specific family is a group of amoral fuckwits who deserve every bit of scorn they get. This still misses the overall problem causing the symptom.

How educated does anyone really think the Palestinians who attack US Citizens are? Do they even know that the US Citizens they attack are there to help them? Do they even know that so much of their aid comes from the US when they never see results of it? Do they even care when Gaza was until recently being blockaded with bans on things like chocholate, glucose, A4 paper, notebooks, newspapers, industrial salt, non-canned meat (canned items are mostly allowed), irrigation pipe systems, toys, fucking potato chips? The ban was eased to allow some things, including snack food, and though I haven't been able to find a more current list (if someone has one posting it or PMing me with it would be greatly appreciated), I challenge anyone to tell me that banning Potato Chips was conductive to preventing Islamic radicalization. When an entire people is literally displaced and forced into shitty conditions for decades, and any attempts to fight back are returned with collectively punishing said of people over and over and over again, parts will be radicalized. Of course that part will find that firing rockets into civilian areas is acceptable. The Israeli's have been bombing them on and off for decades. Which leads to more retaliation. Oh look, a terrorist scumbag fired a rocket from that rooftop. Blow up that building! 10 civilians lived in that building? They shouldn't have been there supporting terrorists! Their families are firing rockets at Israel now? The rockets are hitting past the 67 boarder? Those terrorist scumbags! How dare they attack civilians! That's not even their land! How dare you give them chocolate!

As of now the Palestinians have zero reason to believe that halting their terrorist activities unilatirally will get them anything, especially when the Israelis have negotiated in such bad faith before. Why should the Palestinians stop attacking them when they won't even halt construction of settlements that are already deemed illegal? It's a self fulfilling prophetic cycle that will keep continuing until Israel stops their bullshit and actually starts negotiating in good faith.

[Elfdart]

Are you being sarcastic to make a point, or are you a bigot as well?

Sarcastic to make a point, and I also simply don't like the Palestinians due to the live feeds I watched in 9/11,

Given the way that so many Americans enjoy gloating on TV when Palestinians are murdered -often with ordnance from Uncle Sam- I'd say their hostility was justified.

[eyl]

Bullshit, you pile of dishonest shit, the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigades were not founded until 2000, the Israelis signed the agreement in bad faith as evidence by their failure to withdraw their forces from all of the West Bank by July 1st '94 and never did.

I just went over the text of the Oslo Accords and the Cairo Agreement. Would you point out where either of those documents required Israel to withdraw from the entire West Bank by July 1994? I can't find it anywhere.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I just went over the text of the Oslo Accords and the Cairo Agreement. Would you point out where either of those documents required Israel to withdraw from the entire West Bank by July 1994? I can't find it anywhere.

Annex 2 required the Israelis to remove their forces from the entirety of the West Bank, it did not say when but within a year of the agreement they made no moves to follow through and ultimately never did.

[Master of Ossus]

My mother is of Palestinian descent. (Coincidentally, my parents also live in Northern Virginia.) My father was on his way to DC right before the Pentagon was hit, and actually saw the smoke from a distance. All of us think it was a disgusting act of terrorism, including most of my mothers family overseas. So you show me a statistic right fucking now that says 90% of Palestinians or Palestinian Americans (either will do) think 9/11 was a good thing.

In November 2000, a Birzeit University poll of over 1200 Palestinians found that 73% of them supported suicide attacks on Americans.

In the immediate aftermath of the attacks, a similar poll found that roughly half of Palestinians felt that, if the 9/11 hijackers were Islamic, then they should be viewed as representative of Muslims as a whole. Almost 70% did not feel that the US would be justified in attacking the people directly responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

In 2005, a Norwegian poll of Palestinians found that 65% supported Al Qaeda bombing attacks in the US and Europe.

If what Lonestar says is true then that specific family is a group of amoral fuckwits who deserve every bit of scorn they get. This still misses the overall problem causing the symptom.

And the other 73% of them?

How educated does anyone really think the Palestinians who attack US Citizens are?

77% of Palestinian academics included in the Birzeit poll above supported attacks on Americans--actually a higher proportion than the rest of the population in November 2000. But I'm curious as to why you think it matters.

[Omeganian]

I haven't been able to find a more current list (if someone has one posting it or PMing me with it would be greatly appreciated)

It's a classified list.

As of now the Palestinians have zero reason to believe that halting their terrorist activities unilatirally will get them anything, especially when the Israelis have negotiated in such bad faith before. Why should the Palestinians stop attacking them when they won't even halt construction of settlements that are already deemed illegal?

Israel has withdrawn its forces from Gaza and dismantled numerous settlements. You are complaining that it's slowed action down since? Well, what did the other side do to convince Israel of their good will and encourage continuing?

[Ritterin Sophia]

Israel has withdrawn its forces from Gaza and dismantled numerous settlements. You are complaining that it's slowed action down since? Well, what did the other side do to convince Israel of their good will and encourage continuing?

The illegal settlements and troops are still there.

They even offered to cede the settlements in return for being allowed the right to provide for their own security concerns (ridiculous to begin with) with the Palestine Papers and you refused, which they need otherwise they can't stop terrorists attacks if you don't allow them to procure the means to do so.

[fgalkin]

Wait, are you actually saying that there are Israeli settlements and troops in Gaza? Really?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Edi]

This thread has gone far enough down forbidden paths and is locked due to the moratorium.