Britain to students: fuck you!

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Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by wautd »

So how do we screw up the nation's young people (and on the long term, the nation itself)? I know, lets screw up their chances to get higher eduction by raising yearly fees to a wopping £9,000/12000€!

Beeb
Tuition fees vote: Plans approved despite rebellion
The government has survived a revolt by Liberal Democrat and Conservative MPs over its plans to increase university tuition fees in England.

The policy was approved by 21 votes, with the coalition's majority cut by almost three-quarters following an impassioned five-hour Commons debate.

Twenty-one Lib Dem MPs rebelled, along with six Conservatives.

The coalition motion, backed by 323 votes to 302, would raise fees to a maximum of £9,000 a year.

Ministerial aides quit

The debate took place while thousands of students staged protests at Westminster and after the outcome became clear, violence intensified and windows in Treasury buildings were smashed.

Ministers said that the fees increase was necessary and fair, but Labour argued it would deter the poor from going to university.

Some 21 Lib Dems rebelled, while 27 - including the party's ministers - backed the change, and eight abstained. Six Tory MPs voted against the motion and two abstained.

All Lib Dem MPs said before the election that they would oppose any rise in tuition fees, although the coalition deal included an agreement to allow them to abstain in any vote on the issue.

Lib Dem MPs Mike Crockart and Jenny Willott resigned as junior ministerial aides to enable themselves to vote against the fees rise, as did Conservative Lee Scott.

Former Lib Dem leaders Sir Menzies Campbell and Charles Kennedy were among those who opposed the government, whose Commons majority of 83 was cut to 21.

The motion, which still has to be backed by the House of Lords, raises the ceiling on annual tuition fees for English students to £9,000 - although the government says that would only apply in "exceptional circumstances" where universities meet "much tougher conditions on widening participation and fair access".

Another motion, also backed by a 21 majority, says the "basic threshold" for fees should rise to up to £6,000 a year - up from £3,290 at the moment. This would be introduced for the 2012-13 academic year.

'No recriminations'

Reacting to the government victory and the Lib Dem rebellion, Business Secretary Vince Cable acknowledged the coalition and his party had come through a "difficult test".

"We are going to be resilient and go forward as a team. There will be no recriminations," he told the BBC.

He added: "I think the job now is to try and explain this policy to the country. It is nothing like as threatening to young people going to university as has been portrayed. We also need listen to people and help improve the policy as we go along."

Lib Dem deputy leader Simon Hughes, who abstained, said that the "level of fee increase... may have a significant disincentive effect on youngsters going to university".

Conservative Universities Minister David Willetts said the proposals struck the "right balance" between enabling as many people as possible to get a degree and helping universities sustain their finances.

"The package is fair for students, fair for graduates and affordable for the nation," he said.

Labour leader Ed Miliband said he would continue to campaign against the changes but did not give a guarantee that he would reverse them in office.

"I feel this is a bad day for families and young people up and down the country," he said.

"I think it's a bad day for democracy as well, because it doesn't just damage trust in the Liberal Democrats that they broke their promises, frankly it damages trust in politics as a whole."

Student deterrent

During the Commons debate, several Lib Dem MPs and some Conservatives spoke against the government's plans.

Tory MP Julian Lewis said that if the government could not persuade the public about the £9,000 fees move "it will be rejected".

"Even if you have a policy that you genuinely think is fair, if you cannot convince people that it is a fair policy, then it will fail," he told MPs.

"I would be deterred [by the fees rise]. I don't want others to be."

Lib Dem MP Greg Mulholland, who had called for the vote to be delayed, said his party should not have been put in a position where they had to support the fee hike given their long-term opposition to the policy.

"Sometimes governments are wrong and sometimes you need the courage to say so and I am doing that today," he said.

"I am voting against the government today because I simply cannot accept that fees of up to £9,000 are the fairest and most sustainable way of funding higher education."

Shadow business secretary John Denham said in the debate that the fee increase was being driven by the government's decision to have deep cuts to university funding.

"Even if they had just cut universities the way they are cutting other public services, students would be facing fees of no more than £4,000," he told the BBC.

Dozens of universities have been occupied by students - with students in five more universities occupying buildings this week.

For the first time, there have also been occupations of schools by pupils.

Aaron Porter, president of the National Union of Students, said the students had "won the arguments and the battle for public opinion".

"We have lost in the House of Commons today only because MPs have broken their promises. We are incredibly disappointed and angry with the politicians who have let us down so badly," said Mr Porter.

There has been no consensus within the university sector about the fees deal.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Norade »

This totally doesn't fuck our students, we only doubled and in some cases tripled school fees. Hell my yearly tuition here is around $4,000 a bit over once you include text books and other school fees, $6,000 and I would have stayed a minimum wage slacker as I couldn't secure funding for school.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Norade wrote:This totally doesn't fuck our students, we only doubled and in some cases tripled school fees. Hell my yearly tuition here is around $4,000 a bit over once you include text books and other school fees, $6,000 and I would have stayed a minimum wage slacker as I couldn't secure funding for school.
Why are you comparing 4000CND against 9000 pounds?
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by wautd »

Norade wrote:This totally doesn't fuck our students, we only doubled and in some cases tripled school fees. Hell my yearly tuition here is around $4,000 a bit over once you include text books and other school fees, $6,000 and I would have stayed a minimum wage slacker as I couldn't secure funding for school.
Unless you have rich parents, how is a student going to afford 9000 pounds?
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Norade »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Norade wrote:This totally doesn't fuck our students, we only doubled and in some cases tripled school fees. Hell my yearly tuition here is around $4,000 a bit over once you include text books and other school fees, $6,000 and I would have stayed a minimum wage slacker as I couldn't secure funding for school.
Why are you comparing 4000CND against 9000 pounds?
Just comparing school rates my course is roughly middle of the road for cost and when I did the conversion in my head 3,290 Pounds seemed close to $4,000. Turns out it's closer to 5,250 CND which is already fucking nuts. Raising basic costs to 9,600 CND and high end rates to 14,400 CND is just insanity. I don't understand why nations don't do what the Aussies do and send students to school for free and tax them for it later.

Also, I was trying to be sarcastic about the raise not fucking anybody, it clearly fucks them up, down, and sideways while also taking an arm and a leg.

EDIT: Because my earlier post was unclear I was trying to say I just barely made it into school at about $4,000 any higher would have left me flipping burgers with no way to advance.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Teebs »

A lot of the complaints seem not actually take into account the way the system works.

1) There is no upfront payment.
2) The money is in the form of an income contingent loan, you do not start to repay anything until and unless you're earning over £21,000 a year.
3) IIRC the loan is at a rate of interest which varies according to how much you earn, but even for the highest earners maxes out at 3.5% and is below 2% for most people.
4) If you haven't paid the money back after 30 years it is written off.

So, the system actually works more like a graduate tax with a cap on lifetime payments. If you pay nothing up front and only have to start making repayments when you're earning above £21,000 I don't think you can talk about it preventing people from going to university. It might make them decide university is not worth it as a cost benefit analysis, but no one, however poor they are (and IIRC there are a lot of discounts and such for people from poor families anyway) can claim that they can't afford to since the actual cost is based entirely on future earnings.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by mr friendly guy »

3290 pounds converts to roughly $6000 AUD, which was around the cost of my university fees in the late 90s early 2000s. Now the foreign students clearly paid more as the government subsidised us. We also have a HECS / HELP scheme, where the government paid this $6000 yearly fee and I paid back. *

The other thing for students to do to pay this fund, is to take out a loan. Yes I realise it sucks and it does fuck with you down the track, and is nowhere as good as not having to take out a loan. I am merely suggesting how to make the best of the shitty situation.

However not all courses are created equal, and financial instituions may not choose to lend. To give you a successful example my friend (who now works as a Psychiatric registrar in Victoria) got a loan for his overseas medical elective, which while clearly learning related and helps, um, mature the student by experiencing life overseas, is also an excuse to have a holiday for some of us who chose not to go to third world countries. ** So essentially they managed to convince the bank to bankroll their holiday elective. Why? Because they were medical students and they were going to become doctors in a bit more than a year. So not all courses will be able to do this.

* Note my final HECS debt was between $36 -$37 k from memory. Needless to say I am pretty sure I paid it all off within 3 and a half years of working, using government incentives (ie they discounted it depending on how fast you pay back).

** During this trip we saw Toronto, Montreal, Quebec city, followed by trips to the US (after the elective) to see NYC, Boston, Washington DC, LA and Disneyland, ah fun times that. Now my family was able to pay for my trip (we had won 2nd division lottery at that time), but my friends essentially took out a loan for this expensive trip, leading him to have high amounts of debt when he started working.

[Edit - I previewed this after Teebs has posted. So it seems that the Brits also have a scheme similar to our HECS/ HELP scheme. It could still be a problem as the high debt will become a drag on your disposable income. Which might not be so bad depending on the cost of living in the UK. I have heard from colleagues arriving from the UK that its higher than Australia, one of the reasons they emigrated.]
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

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I don't qualify for government loans or student lines of credit due to a credit card debt I have from when I was earning $20 and hour and work as many hours a week as I wanted. In the years since it has been min wage job to min wage job with no means of paying it back. I'm only going to school because I was in foster care a few years and qualify under that, if not for that spot of luck (if you can call it that) I'd be spinning my wheels and earning fuck all forever.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

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mr friendly guy wrote:[Edit - I previewed this after Teebs has posted. So it seems that the Brits also have a scheme similar to our HECS/ HELP scheme. It could still be a problem as the high debt will become a drag on your disposable income. Which might not be so bad depending on the cost of living in the UK. I have heard from colleagues arriving from the UK that its higher than Australia, one of the reasons they emigrated.]
From the values that have been quoted earlier in this thread, it'd sounds like it's actually substantially less than ours, even after these increases.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by mr friendly guy »

Archaic` wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:[Edit - I previewed this after Teebs has posted. So it seems that the Brits also have a scheme similar to our HECS/ HELP scheme. It could still be a problem as the high debt will become a drag on your disposable income. Which might not be so bad depending on the cost of living in the UK. I have heard from colleagues arriving from the UK that its higher than Australia, one of the reasons they emigrated.]
From the values that have been quoted earlier in this thread, it'd sounds like it's actually substantially less than ours, even after these increases.
That may be true. The fees have increased in recent years and I only remember how much I had to pay.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

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In the US, we're paying in some cases, 17,000 for an in state school. I'm not going to be weeping too hard for people paying 14,200.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

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Master of Cards wrote:In the US, we're paying in some cases, 17,000 for an in state school. I'm not going to be weeping too hard for people paying 14,200.
That's rather crass of you. If they are doubling their tuition rates, it fucks them over, plain and simple. They pay twice as much for gasoline, so don't complain about your $3 a gallon. It's easy to compare dicks, not so easy to show compassion to people suffering in some way.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Phantasee »

The tuition payment system makes a lot more sense to me, anyway. You pay what you can, when you can. It sucks that tuition is going up, but it is a lot easier to go to school there than it is here. My first university let you pay your tuition at the end of September and January. The school I'm at now requires you to pay it on the second day of classes. If you don't have the cash up front, you don't go to school.

At least it's cheaper here.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Instant Sunrise »

Yeah, my school just increased 'fees' (legally, they can't call it tuition) for students and we've been hit pretty hard from budget cuts. I mean last year they also increased tuition while also cutting class hours and sections, meaning that we were paying more money for less class time.

The problem with places like state schools and places where the costs are low is that people who go there often can't afford to go anywhere more expensive, and so these cost hikes hurt them really severely, even if they aren't paying as much as people elsewhere.

So yeah, total solidarity with these students.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

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I support the goverment in this because:

1. The fee is not up front and are only levied retrospectively on those graduates who start earning enough to afford it. Most people with degrees go on to earn considerably more money over their lifetime than those without so asking them to contribute is entirely reasonable.

2. We need high quality universitys to compete with the rest of the would and the only way to achieve this is through allowing Universities to charge more per head.

3. Anyone who is smart enough to do a degree should be able to make an informed cost/benefit analysis.

4. I just dont think the state is obliged to provide free degree level education to everyone.

The behaviour of the student rioters (yes I appreciate they arent the majority though the majority dont seem to condemn it) which seems to be 'pay for my degree or we'll smash stuff' has eroded much of my sympathy.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

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Knife wrote:
Master of Cards wrote:In the US, we're paying in some cases, 17,000 for an in state school. I'm not going to be weeping too hard for people paying 14,200.
That's rather crass of you. If they are doubling their tuition rates, it fucks them over, plain and simple. They pay twice as much for gasoline, so don't complain about your $3 a gallon. It's easy to compare dicks, not so easy to show compassion to people suffering in some way.
If they didn't have the awesome repayment plan, I wouldn't be saying anything.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

TC27 wrote:I support the goverment in this because:

1. The fee is not up front and are only levied retrospectively on those graduates who start earning enough to afford it. Most people with degrees go on to earn considerably more money over their lifetime than those without so asking them to contribute is entirely reasonable.

2. We need high quality universitys to compete with the rest of the would and the only way to achieve this is through allowing Universities to charge more per head.

3. Anyone who is smart enough to do a degree should be able to make an informed cost/benefit analysis.

4. I just dont think the state is obliged to provide free degree level education to everyone.

The behaviour of the student rioters (yes I appreciate they arent the majority though the majority dont seem to condemn it) which seems to be 'pay for my degree or we'll smash stuff' has eroded much of my sympathy.
I might have agreed on the high quality university bit, if not for the fact that the same said government slashed 20% of the research budget, thereby ensuring that many grad students will be unsupported, many research projects slashed etc. The slashing effectively ensures the UK's standing in the research field will probably drop and may drop rather permanently.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Starglider »

The shameless misrepresentation of this is pretty sickening. The loan criteria are so generous that this is in no way a barrier to poorer people going to university, as the politicians involved tried to point out it is actually an improvement. I have zero sympathy for freeloading thugs trying to get their worthless Media Studies excuse-to-party-constantly-for-three-years completely paid for by other (working) people. What they should be protesting about is ballooning university admin costs and overheads that impoverish lecturers and students alike.
The slashing effectively ensures the UK's standing in the research field will probably drop and may drop rather permanently.
As with most government spending, you can either have a relatively small cut now or a massive cut later when the UK becomes completely insolvent and undergoes Iceland-style budget meltdown. Sanity strongly prefers the former but sanity is in very short supply in the public sector.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

As a UK first-year student, I don't particularly like the rises but I can understand that it's not actually a ZOMG pay up now suckers moment like some people here in Britain seem to think it is.

I have however heard some ominous rumblings (mainly from radio talk shows, so take with a pinch of salt) that the student loans bunch may or may not extend the loans. Which would suck bigtime.

What pisses me off is the principle of the things: the Lib Dems said they wouldn't do it, and they did do it. My already strong political apathy has grown a lot stronger these last few days.

But I would like to stress that the rioters are, in a word, twats
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by K. A. Pital »

Starglider wrote:The shameless misrepresentation of this is pretty sickening. The loan criteria are so generous that this is in no way a barrier to poorer people going to university, as the politicians involved tried to point out it is actually an improvement.
How is a rise in tuition fees "an improvement", and what does it improve, exactly?
Starglider wrote:I have zero sympathy for freeloading thugs trying to get their worthless Media Studies excuse-to-party-constantly-for-three-years completely paid for by other (working) people.
It is common for nations with a universal higher education system to have the costs paid for the by government, i.e. by the workers to the students, because the students are future workers anyway. What is the difference between making the students indebted and workers indebted? Frankly, with the current youth unemployment, it is especially cruel to bring on a debt burden at an early stage in life.
TC27 wrote:I just dont think the state is obliged to provide free degree level education to everyone.
And why not? Have money instead of brains decide who gets it and who doesn't? I'm sick of this attitude and all who support it.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Norade »

I agree with Stas, post secondary education should be a right not a privilege in an modern society given just how important it is to have anything above basic highschool at this point. As a right it should be free and supported by taxes just like any other education, people on welfare or EI should also get free schooling as an educated worker is a worker less likely to be standing in line for a handout.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

That's a nice sentiment but would/should that be free for any course? Would you for instance make a waster Media Studies degree free? Or would you only make certain, "useful" degrees free, like Engineering or the sciences or medicine?
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Shadow6 »

Stas Bush wrote:It is common for nations with a universal higher education system to have the costs paid for the by government, i.e. by the workers to the students, because the students are future workers anyway. What is the difference between making the students indebted and workers indebted? Frankly, with the current youth unemployment, it is especially cruel to bring on a debt burden at an early stage in life.

[...]

And why not? Have money instead of brains decide who gets it and who doesn't? I'm sick of this attitude and all who support it.
Norade wrote:I agree with Stas, post secondary education should be a right not a privilege in an modern society given just how important it is to have anything above basic highschool at this point. As a right it should be free and supported by taxes just like any other education, people on welfare or EI should also get free schooling as an educated worker is a worker less likely to be standing in line for a handout.
From here.
Tuition fees
Full-time courses

If you’re a new student (or a continuing student who started your course in or after September 2006) the maximum tuition fees you’ll be charged are £3,290 for the 2010/11 academic year.

Exactly what you’re charged depends on the university or college you attend, your course, and where in the UK you study. Check your university or college prospectus to find out the fees for your course.

You can get a Tuition Fee Loan to cover the full cost of your tuition fees. This is paid directly to your university or college. The amount you get does not depend on household income.
Regarding eligibility.

So yes, anyone who wants to (presumably with the secondary education scores, of course) can study essentially any undergraduate course without paying anything - until they start earning over £15,000.
Norade wrote:I don't understand why nations don't do what the Aussies do and send students to school for free and tax them for it later.
So yes, this is exactly what Britain does.
mr friendly guy wrote:
Archaic` wrote: From the values that have been quoted earlier in this thread, it'd sounds like it's actually substantially less than ours, even after these increases.
That may be true. The fees have increased in recent years and I only remember how much I had to pay.
These are the current annual student fees for undergraduate courses in Australia. As you can see, in certain studies we pay less than the UK - mathematics, science, arts, languages, nursing, whereas in engineering, medicine, law we pay more - at the current UK rates, which from the article in the OP are set to double/triple.

So we (prospective engineering student in Aus in my case) pay the same or less as the Brits.

Edit: Not to say I condone or condemn the rise in fees being proposed, just correcting some misconceptions.

Edit 2: Oh, and for what it is worth, Australian university students get a 25% discount in they pay upfront or start paying early.
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by Teebs »

Stas Bush wrote: How is a rise in tuition fees "an improvement", and what does it improve, exactly?
I don't think it's an improvement I just think its faults are grossly misrepresented and exaggerated. That being said, the people who say it's an improvement do so because the income threshold at which repayments start will be raised from £15,000 to £21,000 and there will be greater provisions for discounts and such for students from poor backgrounds. Those two things are definitely improvements, whether they outweigh the negative of the general increase is the questionable part.
It is common for nations with a universal higher education system to have the costs paid for the by government, i.e. by the workers to the students, because the students are future workers anyway. What is the difference between making the students indebted and workers indebted? Frankly, with the current youth unemployment, it is especially cruel to bring on a debt burden at an early stage in life.
It's not a debt burden in the way people actually think about debts though. It's effectively a capped graduate tax. It works in exactly the same way as a progressive income tax except that once you've paid everything back you stop paying it. There's a big difference between that and a commercial rates loan with a fixed repayment schedule.
And why not? Have money instead of brains decide who gets it and who doesn't? I'm sick of this attitude and all who support it.
Firstly, since nothing is paid up front and there is no risk of not being able to pay the debts back, I don't think you can meaningfully talk about people not being able to afford to go.

Secondly, in principle I quite like the state providing a free university education to everyone, but I don't find a system where you pay for your education after the case, if and only if you do well monetarily out of it, to be particularly objectionable. Basically this is the general taxpayer funding your education if you don't do well financially and you funding it if you do.
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K. A. Pital
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Re: Britain to students: fuck you!

Post by K. A. Pital »

But the loan must be repaid, even if it's not a commercial loan, right? Effectively, if you do bad, the payment is only postponed to a certain term. Which means that a young unemployed person will have this hanging over him like a sword of Damocles - as soon as he actually gets a job, which is itself not easy, he will start repaying his education.

A rise in the income threshold is definetely an improvement, however, it doesn't change the higher amount of money that is to be repaid, right? Only changes the conditions of repayment. Someone with 15000 pounds might be capable of repaying the prior, lower fees fast enough, but a person with just 5000 pounds more per year will, perhaps, not be able to do so in the same timeframe. What is the sum that the fees were increased to, i.e. the per-year difference?

Finally, there's an interest rate on the loan, which I frankly find preposterous - the time a person needs to find a job and start repaying is being charged, except it is a normal process for all sans the ones with rich parents. Nations with a universal education system don't have such problems at all.
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